I2(I-S17250) birthplace

[Leandros]

Anyone has any ideas where this specific subclade originated?

Thanks

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[Leandros]

I cant find anything about the I-S17250 online. Anyone has any info?

Y Haplogroup: I2(I-S17250)
mtDNA: U5b2a

 

[Vlad82]

Hi Lendros!
It is nice to see you here.
The thread is very interesting and I will try to give you some (possible) answers
In my opinion, these two early Slavic cultures were important for spreading S17250 (very likely together with some branches of R-Z280):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague-Korchak_culture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipotesti–Candesti_culture

Starting area for expansion probably was the zone of Korchak Culture: Upper and Middle Dniester, Prut, Upper Vistula, Zhitomir
From this area, S17250 migrated to all directions, east, west, south, and north. West and south mostly following Outer Carpathians
In ancient sources, these tribes were mentioned as Sclaveni
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaveni

A big mass of Slavs from Korchak area migrated to Moldova region and Wallachia, where they crossed the Danube somewhere near Vidin, it was in middle of the sixth century, after settlement in nowadays East Serbia and West Bulgaria they divided into three groups, the first group went south to Epirus and some of them reach Peloponesse, the second migrated to Dalmatia, while the third went to Trakia and towards sea of Marmara
There are some visual representations of migrations
http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/zvwas/zvwas_040a.jpg
http://www.kroraina.com/vg/vg_map2.jpg
https://s9.postimg.cc/5th5wep3z/zaimov.jpg

Other large groups of Slavs from Korchak culture migrated toward Central and Southern Poland, Bohemia and Germany.
One part of them moved near today Slovakia-Hungary border to West Pannonia, Balaton lake, Alps and the Adriatic Sea.

What part of Greece does your paternal line come from?
Do you know your subclade under S17250?

 

[kuzmosi]

Dear Leandros! This question also interests me. One of my 8 eight great-great grandfather was I2a-L621-S17250-A1328.
The other A1328 families I found:
Sergeyev, Tula, Russia
Melnikov, Baskiria, Russia
Prudky, Harkiv Ukraina
Rudy, Lipivci, Ukraina
Barbo, Talachin, Belarus
Viarenic-Stachowski, Stochava, Belarus
Dzuba, Botajica, Bosnia
Ciric, Maricka, Bosnia
Vranjesevic, Bosanski Petrovac, Bosnia
Wisniewski, Warszava, Poland
Starasinic, Krasinec, Slovenia
Tóth, Nyírbéltek, Hungary (My ancestors)

According to YFULL, the A1328 last common ancestor lived 1400 year before present, so it means about 610 AD.

Dear Vlad82! I would also like to thank you fro the detailed answer. Based in the above, I think, the S17250 decomposed into subgroups before the great slavic migration. It seems that the individual strains have broken apart, and did not move as a complete tribe to the Balkans, or to the Avar Khaganate, or Poland, or east, today Russia. The S17250 certainly lived in today's Western Ukraina, as Vlad82 wrote.

I'm interested in how the Korchak culture came about?

 

[Leandros]

Hi Lendros!
It is nice to see you here.
The thread is very interesting and I will try to give you some (possible) answers
In my opinion, these two early Slavic cultures were important for spreading S17250 (very likely together with some branches of R-Z280):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague-Korchak_culture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipotesti–Candesti_culture

Starting area for expansion probably was the zone of Korchak Culture: Upper and Middle Dniester, Prut, Upper Vistula, Zhitomir
From this area, S17250 migrated to all directions, east, west, south, and north. West and south mostly following Outer Carpathians
In ancient sources, these tribes were mentioned as Sclaveni
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaveni

A big mass of Slavs from Korchak area migrated to Moldova region and Wallachia, where they crossed the Danube somewhere near Vidin, it was in middle of the sixth century, after settlement in nowadays East Serbia and West Bulgaria they divided into three groups, the first group went south to Epirus and some of them reach Peloponesse, the second migrated to Dalmatia, while the third went to Trakia and towards sea of Marmara
There are some visual representations of migrations
http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/zvwas/zvwas_040a.jpg
http://www.kroraina.com/vg/vg_map2.jpg
https://s9.postimg.cc/5th5wep3z/zaimov.jpg

Other large groups of Slavs from Korchak culture migrated toward Central and Southern Poland, Bohemia and Germany.
One part of them moved near today Slovakia-Hungary border to West Pannonia, Balaton lake, Alps and the Adriatic Sea.

What part of Greece does your paternal line come from?
Do you know your subclade under S17250?

Hey dude, thanks for your time explaining me
Sounds very interesting!!

My paternal and maternal ancestors came from Greek Thrace, even from the Byzantium era.

My Living Dna results came with only this I2(I-S17250) so I dont know any more details

Y Haplogroup: I2(I-S17250)
mtDNA: U5b2a

 

[Vlad82]

Hey dude, thanks for your time explaining me
Sounds very interesting!!

My paternal and maternal ancestors came from Greek Thrace, even from the Byzantium era.

My Living Dna results came with only this I2(I-S17250) so I dont know any more details

Y Haplogroup: I2(I-S17250)
mtDNA: U5b2a

Hey dude, thanks for your time explaining me
Sounds very interesting!!

My paternal and maternal ancestors came from Greek Thrace, even from the Byzantium era.

My Living Dna results came with only this I2(I-S17250) so I dont know any more details

Y Haplogroup: I2(I-S17250)
mtDNA: U5b2a

You are welcome!
There are already two Greeks from Thrace confirmed as S17250, one is from Topolovgrad S17250>>PH908>>A356/Z16983>>A493, and the second one is from Constantinople S17250>>PH908*
PH908 is the most common subclade in Balkan, and makeup about 50% of all S17250.

 

[Vlad82]

Dear Leandros! This question also interests me. One of my 8 eight great-great grandfather was I2a-L621-S17250-A1328.
The other A1328 families I found:
Sergeyev, Tula, Russia
Melnikov, Baskiria, Russia
Prudky, Harkiv Ukraina
Rudy, Lipivci, Ukraina
Barbo, Talachin, Belarus
Viarenic-Stachowski, Stochava, Belarus
Dzuba, Botajica, Bosnia
Ciric, Maricka, Bosnia
Vranjesevic, Bosanski Petrovac, Bosnia
Wisniewski, Warszava, Poland
Starasinic, Krasinec, Slovenia
Tóth, Nyírbéltek, Hungary (My ancestors)

According to YFULL, the A1328 last common ancestor lived 1400 year before present, so it means about 610 AD.

Dear Vlad82! I would also like to thank you fro the detailed answer. Based in the above, I think, the S17250 decomposed into subgroups before the great slavic migration. It seems that the individual strains have broken apart, and did not move as a complete tribe to the Balkans, or to the Avar Khaganate, or Poland, or east, today Russia. The S17250 certainly lived in today's Western Ukraina, as Vlad82 wrote.

I'm interested in how the Korchak culture came about?

Thank you Kuzmosi!
I agree with you about decomposed into subgroups of S17250, there are many Slavic tribes who might be connected with Korchak culture, and probably they had a pretty different structure of subclades. Also on their migration routes, they mixed with Slavic and non-Slavic tribes from other archeological cultures.

I have two books about Early Slavs written by Russian archeologist Valentin Vasiljevic Sedov. Unfortunately, both editions are in Serbian and Russian. During next week I will translate some basic information about Prague Korchak Culture and explain why I think it is related with S17250.

I have made some maps of I-CTS10228 subclades, it has not been updated for a while, some of them are not complete, and I have to check if some people who are grouped in public projects at ftdna really took the tests or administrators grouped them depending on STR matches.
I did not know for your ancestors/relatives who are confirmed as A1328.

 

[kuzmosi]

Thank you Vlad82!

I look forward to all the information about this group. This includes 2 of my 8 great-great grandfathers. The other one is the Kiss family from Penészlek, Hungary. They are I2a-L621-Y4460-Y3106-Y3118.

Because I made the accurate definitions at YSEQ. They are the cheapest. About 150 euro is an exact definition based on SNP tests.

The Tóth results:

[h=2]Order History
[/h]

09/17/2017	Pending
09/17/2017	Pending	PayPal IPN Verified [Completed (Unverified; $88.00)]
09/17/2017	Processing	Your DNA (YSEQ ID 11777) is in storage. Thank you for your order. The coupon code was applied.
09/27/2017	Processing	First results (YSEQ ID 11777) have been posted: https://www.yseq.net/alleles.php Quick results summary: I2a-M423 Panel processing CTS10228 C+ S17250 A+ PH908 processing Y5596 processing Y4882 processing
10/05/2017	Processing	More results (YSEQ ID 11777) have been posted: https://www.yseq.net/alleles.php Quick results summary: I2a-M423 Panel processing CTS10228 C+ S17250 A+ PH908 C- Y5596 A- Y4882 A+ A1328 processing A12505 processing
10/10/2017	Processing	More results (YSEQ ID 11777) have been posted: https://www.yseq.net/alleles.php Quick results summary: I2a-M423 Panel processing CTS10228 C+ S17250 A+ PH908 C- Y5596 A- Y4882 A+ A1328 G+ A12505 C- A7318 processing
10/14/2017	Delivered	Your results (YSEQ ID 11777) have been posted: https://www.yseq.net/alleles.php The final haplogroup is I2a-A1328. All known downstream branches have been confirmed negative. Quick results summary: I2a-M423 Panel processing CTS10228 C+ S17250 A+ PH908 C- Y5596 A- Y4882 A+ A1328 G+ A12505 C- A7318 A-

 

[hrvat22]

Anyone has any ideas where this specific subclade originated?

Thanks

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All is said here, probably belong to the source of White Croats.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31539-Genetics-confirm-migration-of-White-Croats-to-Croatia

Your male ancestor and ancestor most of the Croats lived in White Croatia and with migration of the Slavs they (descendants) come to the Greece and that area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats

 

[kuzmosi]

Do we know I2a-A1328+, or I2a-Y3118+ samples from Croatia?

 

[hrvat22]

Do we know I2a-A1328+, or I2a-Y3118+ samples from Croatia?

For now Croatian ancestor subclade is I-S17250.. https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/

I2a-A1328+ has the same common ancestor (I-S17250) as the most of Croats.

If it turns out that Croats do not have that subclade I2a-A1328 this may mean an earlier separation (part of the tribe, some leader etc..) in White Croatia and migration let's say to western Czech Republic or east Ukraine and from there a migration through Europe but not to Croatia. But still subclade (I-S17250) remains a common ancestor.

It is based on today's Y-tree for I-S17250, how will be in the future we'll see and I will respect that.


Croats do not have much I2a-Y4882 and the same subclade is typical for Ukraine, Poland, Slovaka but for now they still have same common ancestor (I-S17250) as Croats. My opinion is that subclade (Y4882) proves earlier migration from White Croatia ie. before 7th century to Ukraine, through Poland etc.. and that's why Croats have minimal (Y4882) because that mutation did not exist (White Croatia) or minimal in time of migration to Dalmatia. Later the local migration return (Y4882) peoples to southern Poland, Slovakia etc.

Y-full tree that's says for now, it is possible that everything will change in the future.

 

[Vlad82]

Do we know I2a-A1328+, or I2a-Y3118+ samples from Croatia?

Yseq currently offers the most what we can get for 150€, Y37 + SNP panel or just Top orientation panel for those who do not want STR markers.
Did you do STR panels for your relatives?

FTdna has a large base and many projects where people can see their matches or get information about their HGs. Unfortunately, there are no common haplogroup projects where people can join regardless of a company where they took tests.

In Croatia there are two a confirmed Y4882+ results, one is a Serb, other is a Croat, both Catholics, they have not taken deeper tests.
One big group of Orthodox Serbian families from Croatia called "Rodići" is confirmed Y4882>>A1238
Other confirmed Y4882>>A1238+ results are two Serbian families from Bosnia, one family near Belgrade, one from North Montenegro.
There is one anonymous Y4882>>A1238+ on Serbian-Bulgarian border, and one in Central Bulgaria.

In Southeastern Europe there are only 3 I2a-Y3118* for now, located somewhat eastern, Moldova/Moldavia, Central Bulgaria, and Istanbul/Constantinople.

 

[kuzmosi]

hrvat22!

So, most of the Croats are my 1400 years old relatives? I think the White Croats are really the link between us. These my ancestors (Tóth and Kiss) have a rusin (ruthenian) origin. They called himself rusin. My grandfather was the last one who can speak the old rusin language in the village Penészlek. (he died: 1995) The Rusin (Ruthenian) motherland was just where the white croats lived (west Ukraina and southeast Poland)

Vlad82!

Thank you for the great help. I'm curious about all the information from you. Only basic STR tests were performed, which was necessary to determin which SNP panel needed for the further research.

Tóth STR-s:

11777	CDY	ChrY	24005874	24006149	34-38
11777	DYS19	ChrY	9684325	9684519	15
11777	DYS385	ChrY	18639570	18639938	14-15
11777	DYS388	ChrY	12635531	12635686	13
11777	DYS389I	ChrY	12500276	12500522	14
11777	DYS389II	ChrY	12500276	12500522	31
11777	DYS390	ChrY	15162994	15163339	24
11777	DYS391	ChrY	11982052	11982338	11
11777	DYS392	ChrY	20471872	20472125	11
11777	DYS393	ChrY	3263087	3263205	13
11777	DYS426	ChrY	17022933	17023029	11
11777	DYS437	ChrY	12346237	12346428	15
11777	DYS438	ChrY	12825860	12826080	10
11777	DYS439	ChrY	12403364	12403615	13
11777	DYS442	ChrY	12649133	12649437	11
11777	DYS447	ChrY	13166781	13166991	26
11777	DYS448	ChrY	22218853	22219146	20
11777	DYS449	ChrY	8349867	8350221	32
11777	DYS454	ChrY	8356042	8356241	11
11777	DYS455	ChrY	7043418	7043597	11
11777	DYS456	ChrY	4402901	4403049	15
11777	DYS458	ChrY	7999798	7999920	17
11777	DYS459	ChrY	23932643	23932794	8-10
11777	DYS460	ChrY	18888912	18889080	10
11777	DYS464	ChrY	23094675	23094949	12-14-15-15
11777	DYS570	ChrY	6993074	6993329	18
11777	DYS576	ChrY	7185261	7185451	19
11777	DYS607	ChrY	16302426	16302618	12
11777	DYS724	ChrY	24005874	24006149	34-38
11777	Y-GATA-H4	ChrY	16631504	16631871	11
11777	YCAII	ChrY	17510203	17510360	21-21

Kiss STR-s:

13233	DYS19	ChrY	9521934	9522128	16
13233	DYS385	ChrY	20801456	20801824	14-15
13233	DYS388	ChrY	14747462	14747617	13
13233	DYS389I	ChrY	14612070	14612316	13
13233	DYS389II	ChrY	14612070	14612316	31
13233	DYS390	ChrY	17274874	17275219	24
13233	DYS391	ChrY	14102758	14103044	11
13233	DYS392	ChrY	22633758	22634011	11
13233	DYS393	ChrY	3131128	3131246	13
13233	DYS426	ChrY	19134813	19134909	11
13233	DYS437	ChrY	14466964	14467155	15
13233	DYS438	ChrY	14937795	14938015	10
13233	DYS439	ChrY	14515159	14515410	13
13233	DYS447	ChrY	15278692	15278902	26
13233	Y-GATA-H4	ChrY	18743384	18743751	11
13233	YCAII	ChrY	19622083	19622240	21-21

 

[Leandros]

Why do you use the term "white" Croats. Its like referring to Nigerians as "black" Nigerians lol

Y Haplogroup: I2(I-S17250)
mtDNA: U5b2a

 

[hrvat22]

hrvat22!

So, most of the Croats are my 1400 years old relatives? I think the White Croats are really the link between us. These my ancestors (Tóth and Kiss) have a rusin (ruthenian) origin. They called himself rusin. My grandfather was the last one who can speak the old rusin language in the village Penészlek. (he died: 1995) The Rusin (Ruthenian) motherland was just where the white croats lived (west Ukraina and southeast Poland)

Who knows what the future will tell, for now look branch I-S17250 as family geneetic tree. I-S17250 is one person in White Croatia and that person connects all descendants. From this man house starts expansion and migration.
Why this house would be conected with White Croats? Because some historical records in that area see White Croats. For that reason that subclade can not be original Bulgarian, Greek, Slovakian, Ukrainian, Polish, Belarusian. Rusian, Macedonian etc.. although I-S17250 descendants now live in these countries, they just by the male line originally had a White Croatian ancestor.

 

[hrvat22]

Why do you use the term "white" Croats. Its like referring to Nigerians as "black" Nigerians lol

Y Haplogroup: I2(I-S17250)
mtDNA: U5b2a

Because White Croats are mentioned in historical records, and because we have to make genetic difference between later Dalmatian Croats. To Croatia come White Croats but from Croatia to another country they are coming as Croats.

They come to Greece from carpatian as Slavs, in them are and White Croats not Croats from Croatia.

 

[balkanbro]

thanks for sharing this info.

 

[petro__eh]

Newbie here. Did 23&Me and Ancestry.com so far.

39% (and most): I2a1b2a1 S17250 aka. Y=P204[FONT=&quot]
With these subs that I still know very little about [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
I-Y4882[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I-Z16971[/FONT]
I-Z16983

According to family history: the First known ancestor (supposedly) was Stanislaw Hosszúmezey (Dolhay) c 1330-1366 Vovoide of Beregh County, in the Kingdom of Hungary. Later family members got nobility type papers and served in various military, judicial, and administrative capacities in Northern Transylvania, Slovakia, Western Ukraine, and later Buda and Vienna.

I was born in Budapest, Hungary, but only 2 gen away from Transylvanian birthplaces of Paternal Grandparents.

Both the the Polish and the Croatian connection with I-Y4882 come as somewhat of a surprise and I'm trying to connect the dots with all of it. I guess it's entirely possible, given the constant movement and mixing in the region, and I'm sort of wondering if one of my foremothers "had stepped off the reservation sometime in the past"... and (Family) History is only about papers , legends, and some archaeology, but genetics you can't really argue with...

 

[Ownstyler]

Newbie here. Did 23&Me and Ancestry.com so far.

39% (and most): I2a1b2a1 S17250 aka. Y=P204

You only have one Y-haplogroup.

What is your paternal haplogroup on 23andme?

 

[Kelmendasi]

Why do you use the term "white" Croats. Its like referring to Nigerians as "black" Nigerians lol

Y Haplogroup: I2(I-S17250)
mtDNA: U5b2a

It doesn't refer to skin colour. White Croats was the name of the Slavic tribe which inhabited areas north of the Carpathians in eastern Europe, some of them are thought to have migrated to modern day Croatia.