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I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

Yes, of course I mean M423. I'm tired.

Have you read Varzari et al.? It really leaves no doubt. Not a finding that will fit any of the nationalist agendas, but it's a comparison of representative samples and everything else is mere opinion.

It's quite another matter where the haplogroup arose, but the location where it diversified seems to be the aforementioned area.

I-CTS10228 corresponds with Thracian land and younger clades are Illyrians.

It is normal what correspond, not really northeast Europe, but of course today's Ukraine/Romania and beyond of with the North decreases (Southern-Eastern Poland, part of Belarus and small part of Russia).

Hg_I_L_621_spatial_frequency_B.jpg


What someones do not understand because they do not know, practically speaking, Slavs did not exist in the 3rd century BC.

Pan-Slavist nationalists and here in forum Albanian nationalists what is unbelievable combination (Albanians promote Pan-Slavism, LOL), think that cultures as Zarubintsy are Slavic but no, these cultures are not Slavic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarubintsy_culture

The Zarubintsy culture was influenced by the La Tene culture and the nomads of the steppes (the Scytians and the Sarmatians). The Scythian and Sarmatian influence is evident, especially in potterty, weponry and domestic and personal objects. From the 3rd century and onwards, the culture was connected by the Goths and became part of the Chernyakov culture.

I-CTS10228 formed 5500 ybp, TMCRA according Klyosov and Nordtvedt is about 300 BC.

Slavs emerged later.

In third century BC we can speak about Thracians, Sarmatians, Scythians, Goths etc. but not about Slavs.

Objectively I-CTS10228 can be Thracian or German (Gothic) marker but a lack this haplogrup in some areas where Goths moved gives much greater priority of Thracian theory.

Younger clades as PH908 can be Illyrians.

If we analyze who is more Illyrian and Thracian among Balkan people we can see:

Croatians are mostly Illyrians, but in the Eastern parts are more Thracians
Bosnians are more Illyrians than Thracians
Serbs are both, Western Serbs are more Illyrians, Eastern Serbs are more Thracians
Bulgarian are mostly Thracians

Illyrians and Thracians in these area were mixed, and there are experts who claim language was not so different, even according them Illyrians and Thracians could understand each other.
 
Those Dalmatians who spoke Latin language are descendants of Roman colonies, of course mixed with some locals.
There were not Roman colonies in Dalmatia. People were romanised by the long presence of Roman outposts in the area. Coastal cities in Albania were also Romanised and Latin were spoken. That's why Albanian language uses Latin words for sea vocabulary. Latin speaking Albanian cites were overrun by mountaineers Albanian people who were more numerous than coastal ones, and were half romanised
 
I2a-Slavic:

A subclade of I2a1 called I2a1b2a1, defined by SNP CTS10228, shows a very strong correlation with the distribution of Slavic peoples. Moreover, the time of most recent common ancestor (TMRCA) for males carrying this subclade, is estimated by YFull as just 2200 years ago (ybp), shortly before Christ:

http://yfull.com/tree/I-L621/

http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html

https://lundiak.wordpress.com/2015/01/09/i2...aka-i-cts10228/

I'm not sure what percent of entire I2a1 in Europe belongs to I2a1b2a1 - but surely in Slavic and neighbouring countries it is the majority. I guess, that at over a dozen million males carry this subclade (while in total all subclades of I2a1 are carried in Slavic countries by an estimated 20 million males and in neighbouring countries by another close to 6 million). Some of the most basal subclades of CTS10228 as well as CTS4002 were found in Polish people.

This sample (Y-Full number YF03513) is from Świętokrzyskie Voivodeship (SK) in Poland (PL):

I-CTS4002* - id:YF03513 POL [PL-SK]

In FTDNA this kit has identification number N113464, it belongs to a male from Moskorzew:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moskorzew

Another basal sample from Poland is from Subcarpathian (Podkarpackie = PK) Voivodeship:

I-CTS10228* id:YF01476 POL [PL-PK]

========================================================

The route from haplogroup I2, via I2a, I2a1 (P37), I2a1b2 (L621) up to this very young but very numerous I2a1b2a1 (CTS10228):

http://s13.postimg.org/ossn8zu7r/I2a1b2a1.png

I2a1b2a1.png


Here a map showing the distribution of I2a1b2 (L621):

Vast majority of L621 is also under CTS10228, while men with more basal subclades of L621 are relatively few:
The map posted below is courtesy of user Gravetto-Danubian from Anthrogenica:

http://s16.postimg.org/7ttndgt8l/Hg_I_L_621_spatial_frequency_B.jpg

Hg_I_L_621_spatial_frequency_B.jpg


For comparison a map showing all of I2a1 (P37):

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

Haplogroup_I2a.gif


Here an alternative map of I2a1b, but a very old one (from O. Balanovsky 2008):

At that time I1b was the name for what is today known as I2a1b (M423):

http://i.imgur.com/YIV0TQD.jpg


YIV0TQD.jpg


In Ukraine about 20.5% - 22% of all males are carriers of I2a1 - probably great majority of them belong to subclade I2a1b2a1:

http://s21.postimg.org/ukyhut6pj/Ukraina_Y_DNA.jpg

Ukraina_Y_DNA.jpg


According to Kushnierevich 2013, in the region of Polesia (Belarus-Ukraine borderland), 26% of males (56 out of 217) carry I2a1.

In Russia over 1/10 of men carry I2a1. In Slovakia - ca. 1/6. In Czech Rep. - ca. 1/10. In Slovenia - as many as in Ukraine (over 1/5). In Macedonia - up to 1/4. In Serbia - ca. 1/3. This marker correlates with Slavic people just as strongly as R1a, in some regions even more strongly:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
 
For the Slavic readers (the rest can use Google translate), the following well written article comes from the admin of the Serbian DNA Project who analyzes the genetic make up of the Serbs and recent ancient DNA results. In one of the paragraphs he states (translated from Serbian):
The Serbs are predominantly descendants of the Slavs. Y-haplogroups which are genetically of Slavic signature are I2a-CTS10228 (also knows as I2a-Dinaric), R1a-Z280, and R1a-M458, which all together make up over half of Serbian paternal lineages.
Source: http://dnk.poreklo.rs/genetska-slika-lepenskog-vira-vince/

Russian propaganda??? :laughing:
 
Ducchy of Carinthia

the first mention ever of Slavic language and people,

Kingdom of Antes
the other first mention of possible Slavs

among them the Havars Αβαροι


What are talking now?

that Slovenes were not Slavs but Illyrians
or that Antes were not Slavs but Germans,

if old I2a2 Din is not Slavic then it might be Gothic,
since we know that Goths lived in Crimaia and Ukraine

considering it as Gothic
then must left marks in the lands that Goths expand.

so either Slovenes or Antes were not Slavs
Either both spot areas are connected and Slovenes and Antes were Slavs
 
Interesting discussion. Lots of info in posts about I2A-Din. Thanks to everyone who posted above. I really appreciate. I will add my info to discussion. I am I2A-Din. Father Polish, Mother Ukrainian. Paternal- Odessa region, Southwestern Ukraine. Maternal- Lviv Region, Western Ukraine.
ANCESTRY DNA- 99% East Europe, >1% Finland/ Northwest Russia. DNALAND- 84% North Slavic, 12.2% Southwestern European, 2.6% Balkan, 1.2% Mediterranean Islander. WEGENE- 63.51% Hungarian, 36.45% Russian, 0.04% Chinese. Also here is Gedmatch Oracle Results.
Serb_Serbia + Serb_Serbia + Estonian + Estonian
Croat_BH + Finn_West + Ukrainian_Center + Ukrainian_Center
Croatian + Estonian + Estonian + Greek_Thessaly
Finnish + Lithuanians + Lithuanians + S_Italian_Sicilian
Pole + Ukrainian_Center + Serb_Serbia + Finn_West
 
There were not Roman colonies in Dalmatia. People were romanised by the long presence of Roman outposts in the area. Coastal cities in Albania were also Romanised and Latin were spoken. That's why Albanian language uses Latin words for sea vocabulary. Latin speaking Albanian cites were overrun by mountaineers Albanian people who were more numerous than coastal ones, and were half romanised

Of course there were Roman colonies. Everywhere there were. With romans the story was different from the greek colonies. The Greeks were a small group of tribes and their genetic influence was insignificant, meanwhile romans were a great Empire. Even the small town of Puka deep in the highlands of North is a Latin toponym from via publica. Because once there passed the road for Dardania.
 
For the Slavic readers (the rest can use Google translate), the following well written article comes from the admin of the Serbian DNA Project who analyzes the genetic make up of the Serbs and recent ancient DNA results. In one of the paragraphs he states (translated from Serbian):

Source: http://dnk.poreklo.rs/genetska-slika-lepenskog-vira-vince/

Russian propaganda???

You like to put some Serbian sites but do you like that someone puts Albanian sites. What the human imagination can invent, therefore better not push, this is European forum, cooperation and collaboration is a winning combination, not cheating or something worse.

Even you didn't read what I wrote.

There are a lot good people who participate in this web site including Bosniacs and Croats.

Unfortunately there were wrong activities, someone wanted to increase number of R1a carriers among Serbs and they tested more people belonging one lineage and they were all R1a.

But it is not representative sample.

Things like that lowers the reputation of the site, I hope that editors will lead more care in the future.

For example imagine that someone do tests more members of one lineage in Albania and they are H1a. Does it means that according such test H1a is prevalent in Albania.
 
I-CTS10228 corresponds with Thracian land and younger clades are Illyrians.

It is normal what correspond, not really northeast Europe, but of course today's Ukraine/Romania and beyond of with the North decreases (Southern-Eastern Poland, part of Belarus and small part of Russia).

Hg_I_L_621_spatial_frequency_B.jpg


What someones do not understand because they do not know, practically speaking, Slavs did not exist in the 3rd century BC.

Pan-Slavist nationalists and here in forum Albanian nationalists what is unbelievable combination (Albanians promote Pan-Slavism, LOL), think that cultures as Zarubintsy are Slavic but no, these cultures are not Slavic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarubintsy_culture

The Zarubintsy culture was influenced by the La Tene culture and the nomads of the steppes (the Scytians and the Sarmatians). The Scythian and Sarmatian influence is evident, especially in potterty, weponry and domestic and personal objects. From the 3rd century and onwards, the culture was connected by the Goths and became part of the Chernyakov culture.

I-CTS10228 formed 5500 ybp, TMCRA according Klyosov and Nordtvedt is about 300 BC.

Slavs emerged later.

In third century BC we can speak about Thracians, Sarmatians, Scythians, Goths etc. but not about Slavs.

Objectively I-CTS10228 can be Thracian or German (Gothic) marker but a lack this haplogrup in some areas where Goths moved gives much greater priority of Thracian theory.

Younger clades as PH908 can be Illyrians.

If we analyze who is more Illyrian and Thracian among Balkan people we can see:

Croatians are mostly Illyrians, but in the Eastern parts are more Thracians
Bosnians are more Illyrians than Thracians
Serbs are both, Western Serbs are more Illyrians, Eastern Serbs are more Thracians
Bulgarian are mostly Thracians

Illyrians and Thracians in these area were mixed, and there are experts who claim language was not so different, even according them Illyrians and Thracians could understand each other.

what do you mean by thracians?..........there are 4 groups
odyrssian from black sea bulgaria ......true thracians
moesians which incorporate some of serbia
dacian .............western romania
Getae which are coastal romanians mixed with Sychthians/sarmatians
 
No Ancient individuals carried I2a-Slav in the Balkans. This is already established and we can now turn to a new page.
 
what do you mean by thracians?..........there are 4 groups
odyrssian from black sea bulgaria ......true thracians
moesians which incorporate some of serbia
dacian .............western romania
Getae which are coastal romanians mixed with Sychthians/sarmatians

Yes it is good questions.

Look at this map, 264 BC (it correspond with TMRCA of I-CTS10228 according Klyosov and Nordtvedt):

europe_264_180.jpg


http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/rome_expansion_264_180.htm

In areas of today's Slovakia, Southern Poland, Western and Sothern Ukraine, Moldavia, Romania etc. you can see Dacian (Thracian) and German tribes plus more eastern and north Sarmatian and Scythian tribes.

I2a was in areas which are Thracian (Dacian) and German.

We can discuss about Thracian theory and German theory, but it is high probability that I-CTS10228 carriers were in both Thracian and German tribes.
 
Interesting discussion. Lots of info in posts about I2A-Din. Thanks to everyone who posted above. I really appreciate. I will add my info to discussion. I am I2A-Din. Father Polish, Mother Ukrainian. Paternal- Odessa region, Southwestern Ukraine. Maternal- Lviv Region, Western Ukraine.
ANCESTRY DNA- 99% East Europe, >1% Finland/ Northwest Russia. DNALAND- 84% North Slavic, 12.2% Southwestern European, 2.6% Balkan, 1.2% Mediterranean Islander. WEGENE- 63.51% Hungarian, 36.45% Russian, 0.04% Chinese. Also here is Gedmatch Oracle Results.
Serb_Serbia + Serb_Serbia + Estonian + Estonian
Croat_BH + Finn_West + Ukrainian_Center + Ukrainian_Center
Croatian + Estonian + Estonian + Greek_Thessaly
Finnish + Lithuanians + Lithuanians + S_Italian_Sicilian
Pole + Ukrainian_Center + Serb_Serbia + Finn_West

Welcome :)

According to some of these South Slavic forumers, your paternal line is Thraco-Illyrian in origin from the Balkans. Apparently, by their logic, lots of Thraco-Illyrians settled all the way to Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Russia, etc, during the Middle Ages.
 
Yes it is good questions.

Look at this map, 264 BC (it correspond with TMRCA of I-CTS10228 according Klyosov and Nordtvedt):

europe_264_180.jpg


http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/rome_expansion_264_180.htm

In areas of today's Slovakia, Southern Poland, Western and Sothern Ukraine, Moldavia, Romania etc. you can see Dacian (Thracian) and German tribes plus more eastern and north Sarmatian and Scythian tribes.

I2a was in areas which are Thracian (Dacian) and German.

We can discuss about Thracian theory and German theory, but it is high probability that I-CTS10228 carriers were in both Thracian and German tribes.

If you check the recent paper on SE-Europe you will see that Malak Preslavets has only G2a and T1a1 samples from Neolithic times , this Malak Preslavets is in the bulgarian province of razgrad ...........check the modern bulgarian paper of 2014 for DNA , you will still see G2a and T1a1 as a high % ( although there is 2 other haplogroups which has passed these in % ) even today. The point is that haplogroups did not vacate areas in most cases , but left people behind.

Dacia - what did the dacians speak before using Latin?

I- CTS10228 could easily be sarmatian, eventually absorbed into gothic society and later into slavic society

- upper Moesia by the time of that map was already celtinized ( a mix of celts and thracians )

- illyria was only dalmatia and pannonia ............noricum was illyrian but by this stage was nearly all gallic-celtic
 
You like to put some Serbian sites but do you like that someone puts Albanian sites. What the human imagination can invent, therefore better not push, this is European forum, cooperation and collaboration is a winning combination, not cheating or something worse.

Even you didn't read what I wrote.

There are a lot good people who participate in this web site including Bosniacs and Croats.

Unfortunately there were wrong activities, someone wanted to increase number of R1a carriers among Serbs and they tested more people belonging one lineage and they were all R1a.

But it is not representative sample.

Things like that lowers the reputation of the site, I hope that editors will lead more care in the future.

For example imagine that someone do tests more members of one lineage in Albania and they are H1a. Does it means that according such test H1a is prevalent in Albania.


Hi Garrick,

I would love to find out that there are still Illyrians or Thracians left. They disappeared from chronicles in the early middle ages. Just because I would love something it doesn't mean that I can make it up.

It is hard to believe that Greek Byzantians did not recognize Thracians or Illyrians. They lived close by for quite some millennia.
Can you really imagine that none would have seen and reported a cross or any religious symbol, Illyrians (Thracian too) were almost christianized at the time. It would have been a game changer for strategy of the byzantine.

I am not saying that there is zero chance that I2a-din might be Thracian or Illyrian, but it is a pretty small chance (5-10%) IMO.
Again this does not mean that all is left is the slavic option (40% IMO), there is also the barbaric option (50-55%) - some germanic tribes that were never touched by romanization and that are not mentioned by roman or greeks. Poor romans and greeks, they could not distinguish well at the time between barbaric slaves and barbaric germans.
(This last option would also explain the pan-slavic propaganda)


I really don't want to offend you or any I2a-din by putting up this option (which might be completely wrong btw). At the end this people almost exterminated Thracian and Illyrians, they deserve that credit. I am trying to shout it out loudly that this almost extermination has left genetic traces that you cannot miss.
 

Attachments

Welcome :)

According to some of these South Slavic forumers, your paternal line is Thraco-Illyrian in origin from the Balkans. Apparently, by their logic, lots of Thraco-Illyrians settled all the way to Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Russia, etc, during the Middle Ages.
I am not Illyrian descendant IMO, Illyrian is south Balkans. Specifically Albanians. I believe Thracians come from near Black Sea coast ( Romania, Moldova, Ukraine ) where you can find I2A. From there migration happen west also southward. There is old legend in my paternal side we descend from original White Croats. My southern genes showing on DNALAND come from maternal grandfather who was part sephardic and he migrated north to Ukraine. Forsure not Illyrian genes. I descend from Steppe groups mostly.
 
Interesting discussion. Lots of info in posts about I2A-Din. Thanks to everyone who posted above. I really appreciate. I will add my info to discussion. I am I2A-Din. Father Polish, Mother Ukrainian. Paternal- Odessa region, Southwestern Ukraine. Maternal- Lviv Region, Western Ukraine.
ANCESTRY DNA- 99% East Europe, >1% Finland/ Northwest Russia. DNALAND- 84% North Slavic, 12.2% Southwestern European, 2.6% Balkan, 1.2% Mediterranean Islander. WEGENE- 63.51% Hungarian, 36.45% Russian, 0.04% Chinese. Also here is Gedmatch Oracle Results.
Serb_Serbia + Serb_Serbia + Estonian + Estonian
Croat_BH + Finn_West + Ukrainian_Center + Ukrainian_Center
Croatian + Estonian + Estonian + Greek_Thessaly
Finnish + Lithuanians + Lithuanians + S_Italian_Sicilian
Pole + Ukrainian_Center + Serb_Serbia + Finn_West

Kingslav, welcome to this thread.

You can see existing of four theories in literature (post #261):

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...lyrians/page11?p=511872&viewfull=1#post511872

Slavic theory

Thracian theory

German theory

Illyrian theory

If we take as an established truth that I-CTS10228 is formed 5300 ybp and TMCRA is 2300 ybp in that time and after I-CTS10228 could be the part of genetic fund of Thracian and German tribes. We can round territory on wider areas today's Western and Southern Ukraine, Romania, Moldavia, Southern Poland, Slovakia, even more north, west and east.

Thracians pushed from the north and east brought this haplogroup to the south. As Thracian and Illyrian territories were mixed I-CTS10228 could arrive during 300-400 years in the Illyrian land and new clades could emerge.

German tribes could bring this haplogroup too, with Goths and Gepids especially. German theory is logical and good established too although it failures explain how some other areas where Goths moved have no this haplogroup.

Slavic theory failures explain how haplogroup which emerged among Thracians and Germans could be Slavic marker. I agree with Sile that I-CTS10228 could become part of genetic fund of Sarmatians too. But we should be cautious. Can we equate Sarmatians with Slavs. No, if we know history, archeology etc. So there are serious objections to the Slavic theory. Of course we can suppose that later some tribes (it doesnt matter whose) were assimilated and knowing all above mentioned it is logical that I-CTS10228 is in areas today's Ukraine, Poland, Belarus and other Slavic countries.
 
Of 4 theories, I take Thracian theory for truth. I completely dismiss Illyrian theory and Slavic theory, and I am pure slav 99.5% East Europe on Ancestry DNA lol so i dont want to say this but Thracians could have had small genetic overlap with germans tribe who was in that region Goths for example. I2A still mostly Thracian genetic marker IMO. Originated Northwest Black Sea coast in modern Moldova, Romania, Ukraine then some spread out westward and southward, and some stayed there, my ancestors.
 
Before that descended from nomadic Iranian tribes.
 
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