I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

[Sile]

Actually i did not mean to add your name too. Now i remember you from other threads, and i dont think you are a serbian spy(not that it matters what i think people are)

And regarding the fact that i call that marker I2a-slav, is just as wrong/right as calling it I2a-din. And i would even argue that I2a-din is a more misleading term than I2a-slav, as it is not a specific dinaric marker, but rather a slavic one which is found throughout the slavic world and everywhere slavs have had influence.
I2a-din is not Scientific terminology. Or at least I2a-slav is just as scientific.

You mentioned me as a serb, why is that ?

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

What makes you Albanian are the games you play as a kid:
topa gropash, topa rrasash, doce kanoce, rraqi rraqi kikiko, rrjeta dhe peshku, topadjegesi, kala dibrance.

That's a good idea for a thread. I mean a thread about the games the kids play in each country and similaties/differences.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

If we can enter in historical Roman and Greek sources, we can see that Slavic people were connected to the territory from river Dneister in today’s Central Ukraine to Baltic sea. Maybe Milodrag culture, located in area the rivers Dnieper and Pripyat, north from Kiev, can be Slavic culture, although it is not proven:

What are those sources?

 

[Kingslav]

@Garrick very detailed post, I hope some members decide to read it to very end, after doing more research and reading your post it seems that the Bastarnae were likely Germanic tribe that was mixing with I2A around Black Sea Coast, Goths from Gotland Island were likely mixing with R1A Proto-Slavs much further north of the Black Sea. Possibly North Poland, Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia.

 

[Trojet]

He called me a serb , is that not wrong!, am I a serb!

AFAIK, you're Italian and not Serb.
Balkanite can speak for himself, but I'd guess he doesn't know what you are. And therefore maybe the reason why he called you a Serb was based on your behavior. You always question anything Albanian, whether here at Eupedia or at Anthrogenica, and take the side of the Slavs on such matters. You know very well what I'm talking about! So he had a good reason.

You however, knew where he is from (as can be seen by his username), and therefore had no reason to call him a "Turk" besides insulting.

There is no I2a-slav ...it is fabricated.............the slavs do not even know who their "founding" tribe is
Read Russian papers on this and they state we know of no tribe that was slav, all we know is that the slav language first appeared on the modern border of belarus and ukraine

I2a-"Dinaric" label was created or fabricated as well for I-CTS10228, and some people still use it. With recent data, the evidence has already been laid out multiple times why some of us would like to use I2a-Slav instead of "Dinaric". If you or anyone else don't like this label, you don't have to use it.

 

[Balkanite]

You mentioned me as a serb, why is that ?

I did not at one single point say anything about your nationality. Friend.

I only said metaphorically that i believe you are a serbian spy. In other words, that means that in my opinion you are practicing methods and pulling an agenda which to an extreme degree resembles those of serbian nationalists who are trying to lay out propagandic knowlegde/science which could legitimize future serbian actions against kosova.

So i have brought up no insults regarding your nationality, as serbian spies can be of any origin. I have even heard of albanians being spies for serbia.

If you are paid or not is not for me to say.
As you can see i spend a lot of energy too, without getting paid for it. But that is because even though i got a bit of irish blood, i am albanian in the heart and albanian all the way inside to the core of my bones. That is why i waste my time on this thread pushing through truth.
What is you excuse for being so fiery in you heart about this thread if you are not a slav and it is not money?

Someone who had no interest on this specific issue would write his opinion 1, 2 or maybe 3 times and afterwards just wait for more ancient dna while laughing at the balkanites tearing each other apart.
But for some reason you seem to be in the middle of the fights everytime. I wonder why that is.

 

[Sile]

AFAIK, you're Italian and not Serb.
I guess Balkanite doesn't know what you are. And therefore maybe the reason why he called you a Serb was based on your behavior. Because you always question anything Albanian, whether here at Eupedia or at Anthrogenica, and take the side of the Slavs on such matters. You know very well what I'm talking about! So he had a good reason.

You however, seemingly called him a "Turk" because you figured he is Albanian, and used it as an insult for all Albanians.




I2a-"Dinaric" label was created or fabricated as well for I-CTS10228, and some people still use it. With recent data, the evidence has already been laid out multiple times why some of us would like to use I2a-Slav instead of "Dinaric". If you or anyone else don't like this label, you don't have to use it.

I did not figure anything that he was albanian, he has a republic of Ireland flag

also, by questioning anything albanian does not make me anti-albanian ............I question any race regardless on who they are

I mentioned many times to you in regards to albanians in ancient times, like, no Roman records until 150AD on albanians even though the Romans made the major road from durres to constantinople through albanian lands.
- albanians claiming illyrian ancestry when bosnian, croats and slovenians had 90% of Illyrian lands ........can they also claim illyrian.
I know the serbs claim thracian via the triballi tribe

this claiming of illyrian does not help anybody

In regards to I2a-slav .........it is a very poor name, better to use dinaric for the mountains or something like a culture Vucedol
There are I2 in north italy Remendello culture

 

[Balkanite]

I did not figure anything that he was albanian, he has a republic of Ireland flag

Why is the world would you call someone you thought was from Ireland a turk then? Does not add up.

ps. I have told tons of times now that i have some irish ancestry. But i identify mostt as albanian(arvanite as we are called in my fathers town igoumenitsa).
And i have chosen the irish flag because that is where i am located most of the year. Sometimes im in the balkans, sometimes italy, sometimes Scandinavia.

- albanians claiming illyrian ancestry when bosnian, croats and slovenians had 90% of Illyrian lands........can they also claim illyrian.

Its not 90% of the illyrians lands they occupy. Far from it.
And they came with the slavic migrations, and are not illyrians. 99% of them claim slav ancestry, not illyrian.

this claiming of illyrian does not help anybody

We do not claim illyrian ancestry because it "helps". But because that is how it is.

In regards to I2a-slav .........it is a very poor name, better to use dinaric for the mountains or something like a culture Vucedol
There are I2 in north italy Remendello culture

Why the dinaric mountains? There are more people bearing I2a-slav outside the dinaric mountains than within them. It is gererally found in slavic populations.
And it didnt originate in the dinaric mountains either, as that would not be able to account for the fact that all slavic populations have I2a-slav/din.(history tells us slavs moved from the north into the balkans, not from the balkans into central europe)
So I2a-slav is still more appropriate than I2a-din, as there is no base whatsoever for calling it I2a-din.

 

[Trojet]

I did not figure anything that he was albanian, he has a republic of Ireland flag

LMAO, I had a good laugh out of this.
You're embarrassing yourself. First of, you very well knew where Balkanite is from as can be seen by his username. Second of all, even if you thought he is from Ireland, why would you call him a "Turk"?
I see no reason besides insulting. You're lucky you didn't get banned.

I mentioned many times to you in regards to albanians in ancient times, like, no Roman records until 150AD on albanians even though the Romans made the major road from durres to constantinople through albanian lands.

And here you are proving true to what I said. Just because Albanians weren't mentioned by the Romans, it doesn't mean they all of a sudden dropped out of the sky. Anyways, I don't want to change the subject, so I'll leave it at that.

- albanians claiming illyrian ancestry when bosnian, croats and slovenians had 90% of Illyrian lands ........can they also claim illyrian.

Regarding Bosnia/Illyria, I'm sure you're aware that one of the major Albanian Y-haplogroups, J2b2a-L283, was recently found in Bronze Age Dalmatia (Bosnia/Croatia), while your I-CTS10228 aka I2a-Slav or it's ancestor I-M423, was nowhere to be found in the area or anywhere in the Balkans for that matter.

In regards to I2a-slav .........it is a very poor name, better to use dinaric for the mountains or something like a culture Vucedol
There are I2 in north italy Remendello culture

And this is another disinformation you're promoting, suggesting as if the I2 in Remedello which was in fact I2-M26 has something to do with I-CTS10228 aka I2a-Slav.
It's like claiming R1a and R1b are the same thing.

 

[Sile]

LMAO, I had a good laugh out of this.
You're embarrassing yourself. First of, you very well knew where Balkanite is from as can be seen by his username. Second of all, even if you thought he is from Ireland, why would you call him a "Turk"?
I see no reason besides insulting. You're lucky you didn't get banned.



And here you are proving true to what I said. Just because Albanians weren't mentioned by the Romans, it doesn't mean they all of a sudden dropped out of the sky. Besides, I'm sure you're aware that one of the major Albanian HGs J2b2a-L283 was recently found in Bronze Age Dalmatia, while your I-CTS10228 aka I2a-Slav or it's ancestor I-M423 was nowhere to be found in the Balkan area.



And this is another disinformation you're promoting, suggesting as if the I2 in Remedello which was in fact I2-M26 has something to do with I-CTS10228 aka I2a-Slav.
It's like claiming R1a and R1b are the same thing.

Dalmatians are not albanians

you know also skanderberg noted himself as an epirote , not an albanian

I do not care about CTS10228 and it is not albanian as you say it is.

R1a ans R1b come form the same line of K2a
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_(Y-DNA)
I thought you knew about this

 

[Kingslav]

Thracians inhabited parts of the ancient provinces of Thrace, Moesia, Macedonia, Dacia, Scythia Minor, Sarmatia, Bithynia, Mysia, Pannonia, and other regions of the Balkans and Anatolia. This area extended over most of the Balkans region, and the Getae north of the Danube as far as beyond the Bug and including Panonia in the west. There were about 200 Thracian tribes. Thracians- Wikipedia

Balkanite, just quick question, how do you explain Thracians living in Slavic lands ^ as quoted in upper statement but they themselves Thracians are not Slavs? But they living in the land...

Why can't this question be answered? but has to be ignored EVERYTIME. It is obvious why you ignore, I applaud your fight and cover up tactics not bad effort I'm sure you fooled couple people on here, not me. Let me cut to the chase, I already know that Albanian has duty not admit the THRACIANS they also partly descend from too, are actually rooted from Slavs and even Germans, but my friend in your case this is sad truth. For me it makes no difference. Sorry not sorry.

 

[Sile]

Why is the world would you call someone you thought was from Ireland a turk then? Does not add up.

ps. I have told tons of times now that i have some irish ancestry. But i identify mostt as albanian(arvanite as we are called in my fathers town igoumenitsa).
And i have chosen the irish flag because that is where i am located most of the year. Sometimes im in the balkans, sometimes italy, sometimes Scandinavia.


Its not 90% of the illyrians lands they occupy. Far from it.
And they came with the slavic migrations, and are not illyrians. 99% of them claim slav ancestry, not illyrian.


We do not claim illyrian ancestry because it "helps". But because that is how it is.


Why the dinaric mountains? There are more people bearing I2a-slav outside the dinaric mountains than within them. It is gererally found in slavic populations.
And it didnt originate in the dinaric mountains either, as that would not be able to account for the fact that all slavic populations have I2a-slav/din.(history tells us slavs moved from the north into the balkans, not from the balkans into central europe)
So I2a-slav is still more appropriate than I2a-din, as there is no base whatsoever for calling it I2a-din.

90% of illyrian lands are outside of Albania, it is impossible to claim you are illyrian, do you think there was no illyrians in illyria when the slavs arrived?
The Hallstatt culture was the predominant Western and Central European culture of Early Iron Age Europe from the 8th to 6th centuries BC, developing out of the Urnfield culture of the 12th century BC (Late Bronze Age) and followed in much of its area by the La Tène culture. It is commonly associated with Proto-Celtic and Celtic populations in the Western Hallstatt zone and with (pre-)Illyrians in the eastern Hallstatt zone.^[1]

Do you see Pre-Illyrians , that is where illyrians began in the east-austrian/slovenian lands


Illyrians lands are from east austria, slovenia, croatia, bosnia, pannonia

what is I2a-slav...........is there I2a-german?, or I2a-british etc etc................its a stupid name ( i2a-slav)

 

[Sile]

http://www.oocities.org/capitolhill/lobby/7681/origins_3.html

2000 BC - 335 BC



THE BALKAN BRONZE AGE:


HALLSTATT ILLYRIANS

MIGRATE FROM CENTRAL EUROPE ​

TO THE WESTERN BALKANS

 

[Kingslav]

http://www.oocities.org/capitolhill/lobby/7681/origins_3.html

2000 BC - 335 BC



THE BALKAN BRONZE AGE:


HALLSTATT ILLYRIANS

MIGRATE FROM CENTRAL EUROPE ​

TO THE WESTERN BALKANS

Interesting article.

 

[Balkanite]

@sile, are you making multiple lines of blank spaces between every half a sentence just to fill the thread and make unreadable?

Maybe in the hope that people will just read the title from 2013 and leave it at that?

And by the way, you really do care much about making I2a-slav seem more obscure than it is, dont you?

The mysterious thracian haplogroup which somehow slipped into all places which slavs have settled or raided throughout history.

Move on, there is nothing wrong in being wrong sometimes. You learn, and you move on.

I almost believed this fairytale too a couple if years ago when haplogroups were still at an infant stage.

But come on, why would someone who still believes this in 2017 even be at a forum discussing genetics?
Still believing it clearly indicates to me that you are hardheadedly figting the facts which are right in front of you. Who does that unless the facts compromise their motives?

So imo, you are either pushing these speculations through because you have some personal interest, or because you havent read anything about the history and genetics of the balkans and europe.

And Personally i think you guys are wasting your time. You are clearly not commenting to convince me or Trojet or any other of the active posters on this thread, but to trick new members into believing your fairytales.
But listen why you are wasting your time: Anyone who believes in your propaganda does clearly not know much about history and genes. And therefore their opinion will never matter in the academic world.
So for your own sake, just stop. You are not achieving anything. While you are speculating, the biggest slavic country, russia, is working intensively on pan-slavic theories. And as it seems, the western scholars agree with the russians in this aspect.
No serious academics support your claim, neither slavs nor non-slavs.

None of the people you are trying to trick will be able to do anything against the mighty powers like western scholars and russian scholars.

I on the other hand, i am not trying to trick people like you, because most people with a little knowlegde on history know that your claims are absurd, so they dont need me to teach them.
I do it because it makes me angry to see these things and i cant help myself but react.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[Garrick]

What are those sources?

This is good question, we can see a lot of different free interpretations on the Internet but they are not based on sources, and main sources for that time are Greek and Roman.

Sources are:

Pliny the Elder locates Venedi around Baltic shore.

Ptolomy locates them in Venedic Bay, southern Baltic sea coast.

Tacitus speaks about Venedi too.

What is interesting Herodotus speaks about Neuri, in area between Dniester, Bug and Dnieper rivers, it is possible that they are creators of Milograd culture. Some authors think Nueri are Slavs but it is not proved.

Here we can see Celtic and German tribes since 52 BC and after. Eastern we can see widening Venedi/Slav territories (from Baltic sea to rivers Dniester, Dnieper, and beyond) and reduction of Sarmatian territory (Sarmatians were in expansion since 6 century BC, and in 1 century AD they had 1302764 km2 ).

www.ancient.eu/image/3687/

 

[Yetos]

90% of illyrian lands are outside of Albania, it is impossible to claim you are illyrian, do you think there was no illyrians in illyria when the slavs arrived?
The Hallstatt culture was the predominant Western and Central European culture of Early Iron Age Europe from the 8th to 6th centuries BC, developing out of the Urnfield culture of the 12th century BC (Late Bronze Age) and followed in much of its area by the La Tène culture. It is commonly associated with Proto-Celtic and Celtic populations in the Western Hallstatt zone and with (pre-)Illyrians in the eastern Hallstatt zone.^[1]

Do you see Pre-Illyrians , that is where illyrians began in the east-austrian/slovenian lands


Illyrians lands are from east austria, slovenia, croatia, bosnia, pannonia

what is I2a-slav...........is there I2a-german?, or I2a-british etc etc................its a stupid name ( i2a-slav)

let me add and mark 2 extra things,

1) From around Noricum modern Austria is considered where the Celts expand to Pannoni Basin (for some oposite) and Illyria,
but Greek Illyria is different than Roman Illyricum,
and many Roman authors point to this,
Illyria is mention as Illyria proprie Dicti in Pliny and others, and Illyricum as a Roman province
So Illyrians moved from Noricum to Illyria proprie Dicti,
but we do not know from Illyria proprie Dicti back to Noricum if the land was Illyrians or others,


2 From Austria around same areas also follow same road centuries later the Alpine Slavs, the term is not mine
we recogn a part of them as Caradanians, the Slovenes,

Caradani also as Kara Dani means Black hills, black mountain, same with word Monte Negro. but until now historically we do not prove that montenegrins were Alpine slavs,
so it can be just a linguistic similarity.

because last days I first the term proto Cetina,
I said many times that Vucedol Vucocar and mainly Vatin are a significant stop and new start for IE

 

[Fatherland]

90% of illyrian lands are outside of Albania, it is impossible to claim you are illyrian, do you think there was no illyrians in illyria when the slavs arrived?
The Hallstatt culture was the predominant Western and Central European culture of Early Iron Age Europe from the 8th to 6th centuries BC, developing out of the Urnfield culture of the 12th century BC (Late Bronze Age) and followed in much of its area by the La Tène culture. It is commonly associated with Proto-Celtic and Celtic populations in the Western Hallstatt zone and with (pre-)Illyrians in the eastern Hallstatt zone.^[1]

Do you see Pre-Illyrians , that is where illyrians began in the east-austrian/slovenian lands


Illyrians lands are from east austria, slovenia, croatia, bosnia, pannonia

what is I2a-slav...........is there I2a-german?, or I2a-british etc etc................its a stupid name ( i2a-slav)

R1b and J2b2-L283 almost empty in South Slavs. Broken link. You are among the Serbian spies in this thread. Downrated.

Albanians are the main descendants of the Illyrians as proven, no matter the fantasy projections by the Slavs and others in this thread.

Btw, the only Thracians found so far were E-V13.

South Slavs are Slavic. Albanians are Illyrians. The End.

Funny thing, the only neg reps I have got has been from Slavs who can't accept reality and instead they start to copy-paste things from Albanians.

No neg reps will change my Truthbombs.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

This is good question, we can see a lot of different free interpretations on the Internet but they are not based on sources, and main sources for that time are Greek and Roman.

Sources are:

Pliny the Elder locates Venedi around Baltic shore.

Ptolomy locates them in Venedic Bay, southern Baltic sea coast.

Tacitus speaks about Venedi too.

What is interesting Herodotus speaks about Neuri, in area between Dniester, Bug and Dnieper rivers, it is possible that they are creators of Milograd culture. Some authors think Nueri are Slavs but it is not proved.

Here we can see Celtic and German tribes since 52 BC and after. Eastern we can see widening Venedi/Slav territories (from Baltic sea to rivers Dniester, Dnieper, and beyond) and reduction of Sarmatian territory (Sarmatians were in expansion since 6 century BC, and in 1 century AD they had 1302764 km2 ).

www.ancient.eu/image/3687/

It would have been better if you had used excerpts.

Veneti of Tacitus are in 'Germania' (=West of Vistula), although 'their plundering forays take them all over the wooded and mountainous country that rises between the Peucini and the Fenni'.
East of Vistula there were 'Sarmatians'.

"Here Suebia ends. I do not know whether to class the tribes of the Peucini, Venedi, and Fenni with the Germans or with the Sarmatians. The Peucini, however, who are sometimes called Bastarnae, are like Germans in their language, manner of life, and mode of settlement and habitation. Squalor is universal among them and their nobles are indolent. Mixed marriages are giving them something of the repulsive appearance of the Sarmatians... The Veneti have borrowed largely from Sarmatian ways; their plundering forays take them all over the wooded and mountainous country that rises between the Peucini and the Fenni. Nevertheless, they are to be classed as Germani, for they have settled houses, carry shields and are fond of travelling fast on foot; in all these respects they differ from the Sarmatians, who live in wagons or on horseback."

 

[Garrick]

It would have been better if you had used excerpts.

Veneti of Tacitus are in 'Germania' (=West of Vistula), although 'their plundering forays take them all over the wooded and mountainous country that rises between the Peucini and the Fenni'.
East of Vistula there were 'Sarmatians'.

"Here Suebia ends. I do not know whether to class the tribes of the Peucini, Venedi, and Fenni with the Germans or with the Sarmatians. The Peucini, however, who are sometimes called Bastarnae, are like Germans in their language, manner of life, and mode of settlement and habitation. Squalor is universal among them and their nobles are indolent. Mixed marriages are giving them something of the repulsive appearance of the Sarmatians... The Veneti have borrowed largely from Sarmatian ways; their plundering forays take them all over the wooded and mountainous country that rises between the Peucini and the Fenni. Nevertheless, they are to be classed as Germani, for they have settled houses, carry shields and are fond of travelling fast on foot; in all these respects they differ from the Sarmatians, who live in wagons or on horseback."

Papadimitrou
You are right, Venedi/Venedae/Wends in area Vistula/Baltic sea is not defintely accepted who they were, but scientists today don't consider Venedi as Germans, some Roman scholars thought that they are Germans but they did not investigate.

If you want I will send you scientific papers about Venedi in the message.

My intention with Ptolomy map was geographical location, which tribes were in area when I-CTS10228 emerged and expand after bottleneck, and especially Bastarnae (German tribe) is the best candidate.

If Venedi were not Slavs it is even almost much less possible that this haplogroup could appear among the Slavs, because of teritory and time.

Please, we can open new thread about Venedi and discuss if you want, I agree it is very interesting topic, origin of Slavs is obscure, but do you agree, it would be much wide for this thread.