I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

Look, as far as I'm concerned, the fact that the Albanians, the Croatians/Serbians, and even some of the Greeks have whined about me not only on the public board but to the owner tells me I'm doing a fair and impartial job.

I don't know how any of you define your beliefs, and I don't much care, but you all try to use genetics to bolster your grievances against one another or claim territory or just generally vent your hatred of other people in the Balkans.

Sometimes I think one point of view is correct, sometimes the other. I base everything on history, linguistics, archaeology and genetics all analyzed logically. You guys ought to try it sometimes.
 
Ha ha. I love when the desperation fueled by the lack of arguments, drive you guys to write nonsense like this. Please, keep it up. Let everyone see that you are nothing but a spammer.
And NO they are not slavs. Their direct ancestors probably were slavs at some point.
But they probably got absorbed by some other people due to the ever changing borders and aristocracies of the balkans.
The greeks belonging to I2a-Slavic probably were slavs who lived in modern Greece during the formation of the greek state in 1821, but soon all orthodox churches became greek in language, so practically all I2a-Slavic Orthodox's who were fast enough to reach modern Greece before 1821, became Hellenized after 1821 and today, those ex-slavs still call themselves greeks.

The I2a-Slavic in albanians, may have come during the Ottoman Empire, where there were Muslim Gorani(slavs), Muslim Bosnians(slavs) and Muslim Albanians living side by side in many instances. Sometimes an albanian J2b2 would become slavicized if living among a majority of Muslim slavs, within a matter of a generation or two. On the other hand, a muslim I2a-Slavic slav would also be albanized if living among a majority of albanians for a generation or two.

So actually written sources and population demographics of middle age and modern history fits perfectly into the theory that those people you mention actually have small percentages of assimilated slavic Y-DNA.

All of the nationalities you have mentioned above have been in contact with slavs throughout the last 1300 years.
That is well documented in historical sources.

No, you are mistaken.

How any Albanian will be sad when he learns that he has marker which is named as Slavic.

And he cannot change it, and his sons will carry it, and their sons, very sad, depression that never ends.
 
Look, as far as I'm concerned, the fact that the Albanians, the Croatians/Serbians, and even some of the Greeks have whined about me not only on the public board but to the owner tells me I'm doing a fair and impartial job.

I don't know how any of you define your beliefs, and I don't much care, but you all try to use genetics to bolster your grievances against one another or claim territory or just generally vent your hatred of other people in the Balkans.

Sometimes I think one point of view is correct, sometimes the other. I base everything on history, linguistics, archaeology and genetics all analyzed logically. You guys ought to try it sometimes.

The sad fact is that you're all so alike, and no, none of you are "pure" Slavs.

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...-of-the-Western-Balkan-region-in-a-global.png

Figure-2-ADMIXTURE-analysis-of-autosomal-SNPs-of-the-Western-Balkan-region-in-a-global.png
 
Look, as far as I'm concerned, the fact that the Albanians, the Croatians/Serbians, and even some of the Greeks have whined about me not only on the public board but to the owner tells me I'm doing a fair and impartial job.

I don't know how any of you define your beliefs, and I don't much care, but you all try to use genetics to bolster your grievances against one another or claim territory or just generally vent your hatred of other people in the Balkans.

Sometimes I think one point of view is correct, sometimes the other. I base everything on history, linguistics, archaeology and genetics all analyzed logically. You guys ought to try it sometimes.
Actually the debates have been going on for hundreds of years. But when a new field pops up, it gets used. That hold true for genetics too.

We are not using genetics to claim territory. Most balkan states have claimed each others territories long before genetic science was born.

- As for the albanian-greek thing, i don't want to go into details, because is digs too deep, and should be settled by the countries before commoners interfere.
- Albanians claim Slavic lands
- Slavs claim albanian lands
- Albanians uses "The demography card" - Which means that it claims territories in which Albanians majorities have been incorporated into other Countries without being able to choose themselves. (Crimea and kosova is an example of land claimed on basis of demography, 90%+ russians, 95% albanians)
- Albanians also use the "Historical right card" - Which basically means "We were here first" (An example can be Israel, who states that history tells us that the Jews had a country there before the arabs, and therefore they were allowed to take the area back)
- Slavs claim land on the basis of historical right too. (Kosovo - cradle of serbs etc. etc.)
- As we see, serbs don't get much support from history, as it is hard for a slavic people to claim that their cradle is in Kosova, and that they were on the balkans before Albanians.
- When claims came about some years ago that a new autochtonous haplogroup(I2a-Slavic) of the balkans emerged, they immediately saw it as an opportunity to revive their old claims.(as it was basically their haplogroup)
- Now, the tables are turning, and as it is turning out, one more of their propagandic claims gets shot down. As it is getting clear that I2a-Slavic is just a slavic marker.
- So yes it is a political battle. But that does not make the albanian claims less true. NO serious historian has claimed that slavs have the historical right over albanians.
- So imagine if you were faced with all these fraud claims everyday. Wouldn't you turn bitter at some point, and drop the mask?

Albanians are claiming the same things as most western scholars. The only place we sometimes get overruled, is on forums like these, because serbs have a huge number of internet spammers, who just repeat the same rubbish over and over again, until people sort of believe their non sense.
Trust me, they also spam the academic stage, but no one takes them seriously, so those papers never reach our eyes.

It should be time to ignore their fake claims on the western forums, just as we do on the western academic stage.
Trust me, it is sad that so many albanian posters like "Trojet" and "Fustan"(which often bring lots of useful insight) should be given less credibility, just because some 3-4 serbs are sitting on over 30 eupedia profiles, just spamming all useful threads which defy their distorted view of the world.

Blaming balkans isn't fair in my eyes either. Because most balkan states get along very well. It is just serbia who doesn't get along with anybody, because in the end they are not even a balkan state, they are just an extension of russian politics situated in the balkans.
At first sight, looking at forums, one will get the impression that Greek-Albanian relations are bad, but officially there are not really any issues beside the cham issue. And the cham issue will be taken up in a Dutch court anyway, so that probably wont lead to a war or anything, as the countries themselves wont really have a say in what will happen.

I think that it is a combination of Serbian, labanian and greek ultra-nationalists who are spamming these forums, and thereby drawing a picture of a totally chaotic balkan, which are making some people see the balkans that way.

You can either see me as a liar, or not. But trust me when i say, that most claims that serbs have tried to make about albanians(using linguistics, archeology and history) have always been seen as political fantasies which no one believes. All have been disapproved. Now they are clinging on to this I2a-Illyro-thing for the same reasons, and we are all just standing and looking, while they are turning the forum less and less serious.
So, are we waiting for some I2s-Slavic person to travel through time and tell us directly that he was a slav before we can begin to see these posts as spam?
Really, don't we have enough proof that I2a-Slavic is slavic and not Illyrian/thracian? In my eyes, those claims are not even believed by the claimers themselves, they just want to drown the useful posts, so they wont get read by as many people.
 
No, you are mistaken.

How any Albanian will be sad when he learns that he has marker which is named as Slavic.

And he cannot change it, and his sons will carry it, and their sons, very sad, depression that never ends.
Better to slaughter one sheep, than to loose the grazing grounds of a 100 sheep.
 
Exactly! It was labeled as "Dinaric" (North and South) based on STR clustering before we had Next Generation Sequencing and before we had a SNP designation for it (I-CTS10228), due to it being in a high concentration in western Balkans (Dinaric Alps) - the area that was hit pretty hard by Slavic migrations.

Nowadays "Dinaric South" cluster corresponds to I-CTS10228>>PH908+ which has an even younger TMRCA at only 1850 ybp, which makes up the majority of south Slavic I-CTS10228 and is also present among East and West Slavs. While the rest that are I-CTS10228+ and PH908- make up "Dinaric North" cluster.

1950-1850 = 100AD ..........clearly before any slavic
 
1950-1850 = 100AD ..........clearly before any slavic

You either don't understand what TMRCA means, or are just another delusional spammer. I think it's the latter.

I'm tired of schooling people like you on a constant basis. Anyways I'll do it again, so please read the following carefully:

TMRCA simply means Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor of a subclade or a mutation, and not when the actual migration happened. Therefore the migrations can only happen after the TMRCA lived. In this case after ~100 AD, when the Slavs were already expanding.
 
Look, as far as I'm concerned, the fact that the Albanians, the Croatians/Serbians, and even some of the Greeks have whined about me not only on the public board but to the owner tells me I'm doing a fair and impartial job.

I don't know how any of you define your beliefs, and I don't much care, but you all try to use genetics to bolster your grievances against one another or claim territory or just generally vent your hatred of other people in the Balkans.

Sometimes I think one point of view is correct, sometimes the other. I base everything on history, linguistics, archaeology and genetics all analyzed logically. You guys ought to try it sometimes.
I am a human and I admit my mistakes. I was ignorant at the beginning when posting here.
Now I have opened my mind.
 
You either don't understand what TMRCA means, or are just another delusional spammer. I think it's the latter.

I'm tired of schooling people like you on a constant basis. Anyways I'll do it again, so please read the following carefully:

TMRCA simply means Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor of a subclade or a mutation, and not when the actual migration happened. Therefore the migrations can only happen after the TMRCA lived. In this case after ~100 AD, when the Slavs were already expanding.

Have you looked into the methodologies employed by commercial/amateur sites like yfull? IMHO it's a bad idea to place too much stock in these.
 
Simply

only for those who know true History

xilander-georg7.jpg


St George tower
Chiladariou monastery (Chelandar)
who died there?
 
You either don't understand what TMRCA means, or are just another delusional spammer. I think it's the latter.

I'm tired of schooling people like you on a constant basis. Anyways I'll do it again, so please read the following carefully:

TMRCA simply means Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor of a subclade or a mutation, and not when the actual migration happened. Therefore the migrations can only happen after the TMRCA lived. In this case after ~100 AD, when the Slavs were already expanding.

I spoke about ybp .............ybp starts from 1950AD
So if you say it is 1850YBP , then it formed ~100AD .................or did you fabricate 1850 ?

ybp means year before present and that is 1950

Where did I say TMRCA ?

You need to stop fabricating issues :annoyed:

I think you are just a ***** fabricating numbers
 
If Trojet did not fabricate the year 1850 then the marker cannot be slavic, nor albanian

possibilities then are "illyrian/thracian" Dacian or celtic or Roman..........maybe even macedonian

When did the Goths star asking the Romans to let them in the empire ? ....maybe it began at this time
 
I agree for the most -
language shift depends on diverse factors (number, social organisation...), I already posted about this (as opposants to my thoughts!); but I 'm tempted to think that a male elite doesn' t change language so easily except in some very unbalanced cases, and I don't put too much credit in the "mother's tongue" myth -

I see my post has been "tackled"! Concerning meetings between two pops, the first result is often (rather than bilinguism), after some time and generations in patrilocal societies, the winner language is the language of (males) elite as a rule (the exceptions exist, but they need very specific context); nurses language rarely becomes the winner -
 
Apsurdistan:"And it's found in significant percentages only in Slavic countries or semi-Slavic like Romania Hungary."

Are Romania and Hungary "semi-Slavic" ?


You are absurd indeed. Is the Sun "semi-Slavic" too?

Concerning Romania the input of Slavs, even if not so strong, can be seen nevertheless in the heavy part slavic words take in the lexicon, I think. As in every country, the real input varies according to regions, evidently - about Hungary, the geographic situation and the haplo's tell us they surely had strong input from Slavs, maybe under or Avars Ugric rules or even Huns rules; but here I need more knowledge than I have.
 
1950-1850 = 100AD ..........clearly before any slavic

Yes it is clear.

It is interesting Russian expert gave me a lot of arguments that for I-CTS10228 German and Illyrian theory are not plausible.

But I insisted for Thracian theory and yes he could not give a valid counter argument, even he agreed that I-CTS10228 could be created in Thracian land and be the part of genetic fund of Thracians, but for him Slavic theory is most plausible.

I asked him which Slavic tribes are attested 250-300 years BC, and after mentioned some cultures he told that it is possible that Zarubintsy culture could be related with Slavic.

But Zarubintsy culture is not attested as Slavic culture, moreover there were attested Sarmatian and Thracian elements.

If we see Thracian lands in that time it well correspond with today's I-CTS10228 distribution.

tracian%20tribal%20land.png


This is not significantly distributed in the northern regions Poland, Belarus etc. as in coastal areas where there were Greek colonies.

Therefore Thracian theory can be valid, there are more arguments that I-CTS10228 is Thracian marker.

Younger clades as I-PH908 could be Illyrian because Thracians and Illryan tribes were mixed in many areas.

And I-PH908 could emerge somewhere in Dalmatia, Bosnia, Herzegovina, Western Serbia etc in 100-150 AD, much before the Goths and Slavs.

And if this is case, yes, I-PH908 is Illyrian marker.

Hg_I_L_621_spatial_frequency_B.jpg


In the picture is todays distribution I-CTS10228 with all clades.
 
Sure keep on dreaming, unless you believe that the Thracians originated in Poland and only spread in the Middle Ages throughout the Slavic wrold.

The ancestral clade of I-CTS10228 (I2a-Slavic) is in Poland in I-CTS4002*. In Poland there is also I-CTS10228* as can be seen here:
292889_pol.jpg


So according to you a Thracian tribe originated in Poland or nearby, and then expanded throughout the Slavic world in the Middle Ages, like for example I-CTS10228>>PH908 (Slavic South aka Dinaric South) did:
704721_iph908.jpg
 
Sure keep on dreaming, unless you believe that the Thracians originated in Poland and only spread in the Middle Ages throughout the Slavic wrold.

The immediate ancestral clade of I-CTS10228 (I2a-Slavic) is in Poland in I-CTS4002*. In Poland there is also I-CTS20228* as can be seen here:
292889_pol.jpg


So according to you a Thracian tribe originated in Poland or nearby, and then expanded throughout the Slavic world in the Middle Ages, like for example I-CTS10228>>PH908 (Slavic South aka Dinaric South):
704721_iph908.jpg

You even don't know where is Podkarpackie region.

Furthermost Southern-Eastern Poland, and yes, Thracian lived there.
 

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