I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

[Garrick]

Could be a minor lineage but it can not be Proto-Thracian cause it didn't formed the bulk of the population from the sources we have now,and was most probably not associated with speakers of Thracian language.
This R1b is out of historical Thracian lands,Thracians expanded to Panonia and Southern Poland,Ukraine,river Dniester and Moldova and elsewhere in Balkans but in bit later times than 2700 B.C when this R1b is found in Croatia.

So please when you write your own theories like Bastarnae were I2a din or something similar,say that that is your own opinion like i do,or quote a scholar if you mention one.

No. You can read about proto-Thracians:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacians#cite_note-61

Evidence of proto-Thracians or proto-Dacians in the prehistoric period depends on the remains of material culture. It is generally proposed that a proto-Dacian or proto-Thracian people developed from a mixture of indigenous peoples and Indo-Europeans from the time of Proto-Indo-European expansion in the Early Bronze Age (3,300–3,000 BC)^[60] when the latter, around 1500 BC, conquered the indigenous peoples.^[61] The indigenous people were Danubian farmers, and the invading people of the BC 3rd millennium were Kurgan warrior-herders from the Ukrainian and Russian steppes.^[62]

[60] Hoddinott, p. 27.
[61] Casson, p. 3.
[62] Mountain, 1998, p. 58

...
About origin of I-CTS10228 everyone can give own views, and readers are judging. We had long journey in this thread until member Sile introduced Bastarnae. In other genealogy forums about Bastarnae as carriers of I-CTS10228 written a lot, earlier. It is not easy terrain for coming to knowledge, and mostly forums about genealogy write about it. You can find another view which gave Tomenable who thinks I-CTS10228 emerged in Polesia. We will find in scientific papers when scientists investigate some territory and period and reveal findings.

 

[Milan.M]

No. You can read about proto-Thracians:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacians#cite_note-61

Evidence of proto-Thracians or proto-Dacians in the prehistoric period depends on the remains of material culture. It is generally proposed that a proto-Dacian or proto-Thracian people developed from a mixture of indigenous peoples and Indo-Europeans from the time of Proto-Indo-European expansion in the Early Bronze Age (3,300–3,000 BC)^[60] when the latter, around 1500 BC, conquered the indigenous peoples.^[61] The indigenous people were Danubian farmers, and the invading people of the BC 3rd millennium were Kurgan warrior-herders from the Ukrainian and Russian steppes.^[62]

[60] Hoddinott, p. 27.
[61] Casson, p. 3.
[62] Mountain, 1998, p. 58

...
About origin of I-CTS10228 everyone can give own views, and readers are judging. We had long journey in this thread until member Sile introduced Bastarnae. In other genealogy forums about Bastarnae as carriers of I-CTS10228 written a lot, earlier. It is not easy terrain for coming to knowledge, and mostly forums about genealogy write about it. You can find another view which gave Tomenable who thinks I-CTS10228 emerged in Polesia. We will find in scientific papers when scientists investigate some territory and period and reveal findings.

R1b that you proposed as Thracian was not indigenous and is found in Vucedol culture,not even one scholar propose Thracians in this culture!!but Illyrians,or i can even add Greeks,considering the haplogroups found.

Multi cordoned culture was in Ukraine that is proposed as Thracian(Indo-European) 22nd to 18th century,and as seen in genetics,if they were the one migrating in Bulgaria and forming the Proto-Thracians it was Srubna related,R1a Z93 found in Merichleri burial mound Bulgaria 1800 B.C.

About Multi cordoned culture-tribes of this culture inhabited an area stretching from the Don to Moldavia, including Dnieper Ukraine, Right-bank Ukraine, and part of the modern Ternopil oblast, and was bordered by the Volga to the east. The culture succeeded the western Catacomb culture.

That is all we have for right now...


About Bastarnae and I2a din or forum members,ok fine....

 

[Garrick]

R1b that you proposed as Thracian was not indigenous and is found in Vucedol culture,not even one scholar propose Thracians in this culture!!but Illyrians,or i can even add Greeks,considering the haplogroups found.

Multi cordoned culture was in Ukraine that is proposed as Thracian(Indo-European),and as seen in genetics it was Srubna related,R1a Z93 found in Merichleri burial mound Bulgaria.

Proto-Thracian (since about 3300 years BC till Tracians and Dacians) not Thracian. It is big difference. Please, first you denied the term Proto-Thracian. But it is scientific term and everyone could see what it means and which period covers. We can discuss about what you write, but please not in this thread.

Why you don't give your own opinions about origin of I-CTS10228. Every constructive contribution and different opinions are useful. Despite some unnecessary things in these 34 pages this thread is very popular.

 

[Milan.M]

Proto-Thracian not Thracian.

It is big difference. Please, first you denied the term Proto-Thracian. But it is scientific term and everyone could see what it means and which period covers. We can discuss about what you write, but please not in this thread.

Why you don't give your own opinions about origin of I-CTS10228. Every constructive contribution and different opinions are useful. Despite some unnecessary things in these 34 pages this thread is very popular.

Scientists speak of Proto-Thracians according to same wikipedia you quoted "from the time of Proto-Indo-European expansion in the Early Bronze Age when the latter, around 1500 BC, mixed with indigenous peoples. We speak of proto-Thracians from which during the Iron Age (about 1000 BC) Dacians and Thracians begin developing"

Vucedol culture begin 3000 B.C to 2200 B.C,and nothing to do with Thracians.

I2a din will appear in Iron or later Bronze age samples in Balkans if we have more samples,that is my opinion/believe and i associate it with the Thracian tribes,Getae,Tyragetae,Dacians etc.
Last time from the Balkans there was much more Neolithic than Iron age or late bronze age samples.

 

[Garrick]

And not a single haplogroup is Illyrian, they just disappeared, poof! The slavic newcomers from 700ad also dissapeared according to you since you claim I2a isnt slavic.

Very interesting thoughts you have Garrick, I must say!

Do you really think Illyrians were in the Balkans 5485 BC or 2725 BC.

 

[Garrick]

I2a din will appear in Iron or later Bronze age samples in Balkans if we have more samples,that is my opinion/believe and i associate it with the Thracian tribes,Getae,Tyragetae,Dacians etc.
Last time from the Balkans there was much more Neolithic than Iron age or late bronze age samples.

Good, you don't longer reject Proto-Tracians. And it is good to back to topics. Members here discussed about possibility that I-CTS10228 originally emerged among Thracians after bottleneck. Probability exists and it can be possible. We discuss about it all time, Thracian theory is possible, as German theory and Slavic theory. Illyrian theory is rejected as implausible.

One of key thesis is I-CTS10228 entered among Thracians (Getae-Dacians) and came to the Balkans before arriving Slavs to Balkans.

It can be 1) due to transfer I-CTS10228 from any (German) tribe to Tracians/Dacians or 2) direct emergence of I-CTS10228 among Thracians/Dacians after bottleneck.

What is difference. Given time and geography I-CTS10228 could emerge more Western and North than what was Thracian land in 300 BC. German tribes and some cultures are more plausible.

But what you say is necessary for researching. Maybe area was more east and south and Thracian theory would be more plausible. Your contribution to this thread can be valuable.

 

[Milan.M]

I1-M253 all over Iron Age Poland:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...lish-DNA/page3?p=513761&viewfull=1#post513761

Subclade I-L1237 on YFull: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L1237/

The basal lineage of this subclade, I-L1237*, can be found here:

So Jordanes was right - the Goths had originated from Sweden?

R1b actually originated from Russia, Yamnaya culture.

I2a has more western (WHG) origins than R1b (EHG).

Again there is no proved connection in that migration,Wielbark DNA mean nothing,we need Chernyakov culture DNA for "Goths".
Here is opinion of scholars.

Guy Halsall sees no chronological development from the Wielbark to Chernyakhov culture, given that the latter stage of the Wielbark culture is synchronous with Chernyakhov, and the two regions have minimal territorial overlap. "Although it is often claimed that Cernjachov metalwork derives from Wielbark types, close examination reveals no more than a few types with general similarities to Wielbark types".[14] Michael Kulikowski also challenges the Wielbark connection, highlighting that the greatest reason for Wielbark-Chernyakhov connection derives from a "negative characteristic" (i.e., the absence of weapons in burials), which is less convincing proof than a positive one. He argues that the Chernyakhov culture could just as likely have been an indigenous development of local Pontic, Carpic or Dacian cultures, or a blended culture resulting from Przeworsk and steppe interactions. Furthermore, he altogether denies the existence of Goths prior to the 3rd century. Kulikowsky states that no Gothic people, nor even a noble kernel, migrated from Scandinavia or the Baltic. Rather, he suggests that the "Goths" formed in situ. Like the Alemanni or the Franks, the Goths were a "product of the Roman frontier"

Jordanes mention "Scandza" also his book is called Getica.

 

[LeBrok]

You're a hypocrite. We can go further back if you wish and IJ exists then. It all depends what context you want to use. So far no J2b2-L283 found in Anatolia, it's 100% European and only found in Europe.

Please, stop being overly aggressive in this discussion.

 

[Garrick]

Please, stop being overly aggressive in this discussion.

No matter, emotions are in questions, probably he is good guy.

In the Balkans, especially, there are a lot of myths and wrong beliefs and assumptions, probably it is strong reason why this region lags behind.

Your motto should be star guide for Balkan people.

 

[Fustan]

Please, stop being overly aggressive in this discussion.

What's "overly aggressive" about pointing out hypocrisy, exactly?

 

[Garrick]

The evidence you are mentioning regarding this Russian scientist I suppose will be published soon.
If so, such paper will probably be discussed and interpreted in depth in the forum.

Surely they somewhat published, they have a lot of institute, and their scientists published, you can see, in many scientific papers what are here in the forum.

These days I read some very good Ukrainian papers about cultures, I like what is pure science, without ideology.

Problem is language, although somewhat can be understood because certain similarities between Slavic languages, and there is no everything in Internet, must be purchased in library.

 

[Tomenable]

Goths were I1a3, just like Maciamo predicted back in 2015:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...Medieval-Polish-DNA/page5?p=514075#post514075

 

[Milan.M]

Nice,but we made a step more,since this clade is absent from Scandinavia, we ruled out a Gothic migration from there right now.

 

[Garrick]

You know what is odd. My grandfather who died this year always referd to almost all slavs from Romania as Bulgarians.
I believe that this I2a-din entered at a early time in vlach and slavic population, my best choise would be Bastarnae. This population corespound in time and place to first bringing this Hg in area.

It is the best explanation in terms of time and territory.

I-CTS10228 emerged most probably in Zarubintsy or Poinesti-Lukashevka culture.

Zarubintsy culture, 3rd century BC - 1st century AD.

Poinesti-Lukashevka culture is her predecessor.

Both of these cultures science confirmed they are Bastarnaian.

Scientist Pashkovska analyzed Pripyat group of Zarubintsy culture and found it is Bastarnaian (both Yastorf and Pomeranian).

Bastarnae were German tribe, it means I-CTS10228 is German marker.

But Germans transfered this haplogroup to the Thracians/Dacians, Sarmatians and Slavs, (there are opinion Slavic lecixon adopted numerous German words of Bastarnae) plus his ancestor lived in Western Europe in Loschbure thousand of years before (100% WHG) what it means better call it European marker.

It is considered that already members of Poineshti-Lukashevka culture (ended 30 BC) migrated to the Balkans. If it is true I-CTS10228 emerged in the Balkans in the end of the old and in the begining of the new era!

 

[Nik]

The more I read about it the more I'm convinced about a possible Dacian/Bastarnae/Celtic origin of I-P37.

All the aforementioned populations were resettled in Illyricum, namely the Dacians, Bastarnae, Carpi, Anartes (Celto-Dacians). Then there were several Celtic tribes such as Taurisci, Cotini, Osi, Britogalli.

 

[Fatherland]

Goths were I1a3, just like Maciamo predicted back in 2015:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...Medieval-Polish-DNA/page5?p=514075#post514075

Lol at whoever downvoted this.

 

[Leka]

The more I read about it the more I'm convinced about a possible Dacian/Bastarnae/Celtic origin of I-P37.

All the aforementioned populations were resettled in Illyricum, namely the Dacians, Bastarnae, Carpi, Anartes (Celto-Dacians). Then there were several Celtic tribes such as Taurisci, Cotini, Osi, Britogalli.

Obviously you're not reading the data that actually matters or your thought process is really flawed. A Germanic tribe spreading a ydna that's found far and wide among Slavs, follows their movements from Belarus to Greece, that arose only 2300 years, and doesn't exist among Germans to boot, makes sense to you? Sounds like wishful thinking to me.

I2a CTS10228 is what's being questioned here.

 

[Nik]

Obviously you're not reading the data that actually matters or your thought process is really flawed. A Germanic tribe spreading a ydna that's found far and wide among Slavs, follows their movements from Belarus to Greece, that arose only 2300 years, and doesn't exist among Germans to boot, makes sense to you? Sounds like wishful thinking to me.

I2a CTS10228 is what's being questioned here.

Judging by the speed that you jump into conclusions and insult people, your IQ must be way below average. You (and some others here) sound just like those poor souls that burned innocent beautiful women because "the data that actually mattered" proved them guilty of witchcraft.

Perhaps you and your fellow keyboard swingers can take a chill pill and understand first what it means to be a Slav. Slavs absorbed millions of Germanics, Balts, Scythians, Sarmatians, Dacians, Thracians, Illyrians, Romans, etc, so the CTS10228 guy could have belonged to any of such ethnic groups, got assimilated and marched throughout Eastern Europe joining the Slavic cause.

So until we get A LOT of data from ancient DNA and confirmation that such skeletons belonged specifically to early Slavs judging by their culture, traditions, ornaments found in the area, then we can talk about thought process. Until then everyone can freely exercise the right to freedom of thought.

Back to your IQ, didn't you read that I listed Dacians, Bastarnae, Carpi, Anartes, Taurisci, Osi, Cotini, and Britogalli? All of them besides Bastarnae escaped you? And you talk about wishful thinking.

 

[Fatherland]

The more I read about it the more I'm convinced about a possible Dacian/Bastarnae/Celtic origin of I-P37.

All the aforementioned populations were resettled in Illyricum, namely the Dacians, Bastarnae, Carpi, Anartes (Celto-Dacians). Then there were several Celtic tribes such as Taurisci, Cotini, Osi, Britogalli.

Wrong, you are the low-IQ poster here, not Leka. Your "theory" is not based on any fact, but pure fantasy and you keep changing it which makes you among the least credible posters.

I2a-CTS10228 is Slavic, nothing else.

I am 100% sure this fantasy has to do with your dubious ethnic background. Stop coping and off with you.

 

[Nik]

Wrong, you are the low-IQ poster here, not Leka. Your "theory" is not based on any fact, but pure fantasy and you keep changing it which makes you among the least credible posters.

I2a-CTS10228 is Slavic, nothing else.

I am 100% sure this fantasy has to do with your dubious ethnic background. Stop coping and off with you.

Reasons why you're part of the low IQ bunch:

1) Calling me a low-IQ poster because of a different opinion and being skeptical due to lack of evidence
2) Calling my opinion a theory, when its just an opinion which I'm willing to consider besides the other obvious Slavic theory
3) I find that changing your opinion is a sign of intelligence and willingness to learn, as well as neutrality in the matter, unlike stubbornly following an agenda
4) Calling me 'among the least credible posters' when unlike you, I never impose my opinions/theories and call them as the definitive truth without further evidence. There are only a bunch of credible posters in this forum, and they're not right all the time and they know it.
5) You being 100% sure of everything and chasing me in every topic after being schooled so many times.

Now if you have nothing else to add, please refrain from replying to my posts. You're a waste of space in here. I'd rather have credible posters analyze/criticize my opinions/questions.