I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

[Sile]

Not sure where you're going with this.



If you'd like to understand Genetics better, I suggest you stop paying attention to fairy tales from users like Garrick, Sile, etc, and read other respectable forums. The reason why it was named as "Din" was because of the high concentration of it in the Dinaric Alps, before there was a SNP designation for it. Keep in mind that statistically speaking, there are far more carriers of I-CTS10228 (Din) in Eastern and Western Slavic countries than Southern ones. And no, I don't see why it's a "mistake" to call it I2a-Slavic, since we're talking about the specific I2a that's found overwhelmingly in the Slavic countries (East, West, South). There is some who call I2a-M26 as "Sardinian" since it's found overwhelmingly in Sardinia. Obviously, you or anyone else don't have to call it as such.

Similarly, there is younger mutations of Y-haplogroups which are found overwhelmingly in Albanian populations and almost inexistent in others, so such clusters can be called "Albanian".



Not sure what "emotions" you're taking about, either. I honestly have no personal interest in this, besides just pointing out what the facts and evidence are.

You do not know what you are talking about in regards to cts10228.............it was formed 3650BC in south-central poland and slovakia lands ( upper vistula mountainous areas as well ) ..............There where no slavs in those places in the time of 3650BC

You need to stop placing modern nations and linking them to ancient places ...............they do not match...............you assume too much

 

[mobileacc200]

No. It is nonsense.

Trojet is wrong. Because I-CTS10228 was not emerged among Slavs and several hundred years Germans, Celts, Sarmatians, Thracians/Dacians, Scythians etc spread this haplogroup.

Thracians, Sarmathians, Scythians spread I2a-10228??

Where do you pull this info and how you come to these theories?

 

[Trojet]

You do not know what you are talking about in regards to cts10228.............it was formed 3650BC in south-central poland and slovakia lands ( upper vistula mountainous areas as well ) ..............There where no slavs in those places in the time of 3650BC

You need to stop placing modern nations and linking them to ancient places ...............they do not match...............you assume too much

According to the current YFull tree, the I-CTS10228 mutation could be as old as 5300 years or as young as 2300 years (formed 5300, TMRCA 2300). The reason is because there is about 29 SNPs involved and we don't know in which order they would have happened as there is no sample that tested negative for one of those SNPs.

However, in the next version of the YFull tree, there should be a split, since from what I understood, sample YF09727 FRA tested negative for some of those 29 SNPs but positive for CTS10228 mutation itself, so CTS10228 should move upstream.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/

When we associate it with Slavic expansions, we talk about its downstream clades which start expanding about 2300 ybp (TMRCA), at the time when Slavs or Proto-Slavs existed and started expanding, and not his ancient ancestor who lived some 5300 ybp. Why so, because among other reasons, such young clades with a TMRCA of only 2300 ybp and less are widespread throughout the Slavic countries and rare in other places.

 

[Garrick]

Thracians, Sarmathians, Scythians spread I2a-10228??

Where do you pull this info and how you come to these theories?

You should read many pages in this thread. And not only in this thread and Eupedia, you can read other forums and sources. You can agree or disagree with what various contributors wrote, but they gave some arguments.

I-CTS10228 emerged after bottleneck 300 BC along river Vistula. The most appropriate tribe according time and geography is German tribe Bastarnae. Some scholars speak about Celtic origin of this tribe or mixed German-Celtic origin. This tribe migrated in the south-east in area surrounded by Thracians (Getae-Dacians) and Sarmatians. Bastarnae mixed with both of them. Also Bastarnae several time were in Balkans and mixed with Balkan Thracian.

And I am very careful when speak about Scythians but they cannot be completely excluded. They mixed with Sarmatians, Thracians, etc. and they could have this haplogroup too.

 

[Garrick]

Please read my comment about sample I5236 (I-P37) from a month ago in case you missed it, when I said since the authors didn't report M423 or L621, this sample is negative for them: www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29041-I2a-Din-came-to-the-Balkans-and-Dinaric-Alps-with-the-Thracians-Dacians-Illyrians/page8?p=511700#post511700 For sample I5236 to be the "forefather" of I-CTS10228 as you claimed, he needs to be proven positive not only for M423 but also for some L621 SNPs, as this sample comes from 10500 years ago, and by then I-L621 SNPs would have started developing: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L621/

You like Poreklo, they say one thing you the opposite. Someone is wrong. Definitely I will check at authors of paper and I will inform.

According to the current YFull tree, the I-CTS10228 mutation could be as old as 5300 years or as young as 2300 years (formed 5300, TMRCA 2300). The reason is because there is about 29 SNPs involved and we don't know in which order they would have happened as there is no sample that tested negative for one of those SNPs. However, in the next version of the YFull tree, there should be a split, since from what I understood, sample YF09727 FRA tested negative for some of those 29 SNPs but positive for CTS10228 mutation itself, so CTS10228 should move upstream. https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/ When we associate it with Slavic expansions, we talk about its downstream clades which start expanding about 2300 ybp, at the time when Slavs or Proto-Slavs existed and started expanding, and not his ancient ancestor who lived some 5300 ybp. Why so, because among other reasons, such young clades with a TMRCA of only 2300 ybp and less are widespread throughout the Slavic countries and rare in other places.

You claim Slavs or proto-Slavs existed 300 BC in upper stream of Vistula?! No one source mentions it. Maybe you investigated and found?

 

[Sile]

According to the current YFull tree, the I-CTS10228 mutation could be as old as 5300 years or as young as 2300 years (formed 5300, TMRCA 2300). The reason is because there is about 29 SNPs involved and we don't know in which order they would have happened as there is no sample that tested negative for one of those SNPs.

However, in the next version of the YFull tree, there should be a split, since from what I understood, sample YF09727 FRA tested negative for some of those 29 SNPs but positive for CTS10228 mutation itself, so CTS10228 should move upstream.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/

When we associate it with Slavic expansions, we talk about its downstream clades which start expanding about 2300 ybp (TMRCA), at the time when Slavs or Proto-Slavs existed and started expanding, and not his ancient ancestor who lived some 5300 ybp. Why so, because among other reasons, such young clades with a TMRCA of only 2300 ybp and less are widespread throughout the Slavic countries and rare in other places.

the french person will only confirm that he migrated from south Poland area.

what and where was the negative cts10228 found...............this will give a better understanding

in regards to 2300ybp ( Tmrca )..............this only means the year is 350BC .........you are not saying that there where slavs in south Poland lands in 350BC , are you?

 

[Garrick]

Even Stalin's archeologists and historians who tried look for proto-Slavs/Slavs practically everywhere but they didn't speak about proto-Slavs/Slavs in upper Vistula area 300 BC.

They saw proto-Slavs in Upper Paleolithic cultures in today's areas of Ukraine and Russia, they spoke about Slavic colonies in the Elba even Hamburg but during second half of first millennia new era, nothing about 300 BC along upper-middle Vistula.

I gave Ptolomy chart 150 AD (even 450 years after emergence of I-CTS10228 after bottleneck) Tabula Europae VIII, we see a lot different tribes (Celtic, German, Thracian/Dacian, Sarmatian etc.), and nobody answered, question was: Where are Slavs?

 

[mobileacc200]

You should read many pages in this thread. And not only in this thread and Eupedia, you can read other forums and sources. You can agree or disagree with what various contributors wrote, but they gave some arguments.

I-CTS10228 emerged after bottleneck 300 BC along river Vistula. The most appropriate tribe according time and geography is German tribe Bastarnae. Some scholars speak about Celtic origin of this tribe or mixed German-Celtic origin. This tribe migrated in the south-east in area surrounded by Thracians (Getae-Dacians) and Sarmatians. Bastarnae mixed with both of them. Also Bastarnae several time were in Balkans and mixed with Balkan Thracian.

And I am very careful when speak about Scythians but they cannot be completely excluded. They mixed with Sarmatians, Thracians, etc. and they could have this haplogroup too.

So, Sarmatians, Thracians, Dacians, German tribes like Bastarnae and also Celts all carried I2a-Din?

If Thracians have carried it, it would be all over Greeks, Albanians and Italians..

When its not but its strongly associated only with Slavs and their expansions like Early Medieval one into a Balkan..

Seems you just throwing theories and im yet waiting for some better explanation. Do you have ancient Sarmatian dna sample tested as I2a-Slav or this is just another theory (wish) of yours?

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[DuPidh]

You should read many pages in this thread. And not only in this thread and Eupedia, you can read other forums and sources. You can agree or disagree with what various contributors wrote, but they gave some arguments.I-CTS10228 emerged after bottleneck 300 BC along river Vistula. The most appropriate tribe according time and geography is German tribe Bastarnae. Some scholars speak about Celtic origin of this tribe or mixed German-Celtic origin. This tribe migrated in the south-east in area surrounded by Thracians (Getae-Dacians) and Sarmatians. Bastarnae mixed with both of them. Also Bastarnae several time were in Balkans and mixed with Balkan Thracian.And I am very careful when speak about Scythians but they cannot be completely excluded. They mixed with Sarmatians, Thracians, etc. and they could have this haplogroup too.

Here are some major flaw with your reasoning:a) South Slavs have in general over 35% of their male lineages I2a. Had it been true that I2a originated in some other place besides Slavs it would have shown in mtDNA composition of South Slavs. Which means had it Celts been the original carriers, Celtic genes would have been part of Slavic populations gene pool, which surprisingly are not. Slavic Dna does not show affinities with Celtic countriesb) There is no need for more needles debate

 

[mobileacc200]

Even if only 5% Russians carried I2a Din, Balkan is totally insignificant in numbers. And where is Ukraine, Poland, Slovakia, Romania, Moldova, Belarus, all countries with milions of I2a-Slav, and they have variations.
I
Looks like I2a2-Din were Slavicized by R1a and since then they are together forming Slavic ethnogenesis.

Now what people were I2a2-Din before getting Slavicized is hard to tell but doubtfully Sarmatians, Celts or Thracians..

Most likely some farming passive native society.

Their expansion is associated with R1a Slavic expansions..

I2a2-Din is undoubtfully Slavic just as R1a, no matter if they were not Slavs in one point of their history, their bloom and expansion is strongly tied with Slavs.

Even tho they have distant Sardinian or Celtic relatives, speaking of CTS10228, there is almost no more Slavic marker besides R1a.

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[Sile]

Here are some major flaw with your reasoning:a) South Slavs have in general over 35% of their male lineages I2a. Had it been true that I2a originated in some other place besides Slavs it would have shown in mtDNA composition of South Slavs. Which means had it Celts been the original carriers, Celtic genes would have been part of Slavic populations gene pool, which surprisingly are not. Slavic Dna does not show affinities with Celtic countriesb) There is no need for more needles debate

The oldest written people known as Illyrians came from east-austria , pannonia, ............everyone knows they had G2a and I2a markers

these bronze-age illyrians moved slowly in a north-east direction form modern Vienna to be involved in the bronze age amber trail trade . this I2a also went into Italy, croatia, Bosnia etc...................and yes , the celts absorbed the illyrians in austria from ~700BC and continued to absorb them into celtic society as far south as northern Serbia ( you should know from there the celts failed in their invasion of Greece ).................the slavs would have absorbed "illyrian" markers because they absorbed illyrian-celts

Not all of one haplogroup belongs to one people .................so what I2a do you refer to as certain subclades belong to different areas ................I also hope you are not one of these people that think R1a is only a slavic marker

 

[Sile]

a 2004-2006 study by Rootsi and spanish scholars on ancient illyrians

name legend below:
Autariates = Bosnia
Delmatae = Pannonia
Noricum = East-Austria
Taulanti = Montenegro and Albania
Dardanians = Croatia
Histri = Istria
Veneti = North-East Italy
Japodes = Slovenia
Liburni = Italians and Croats

RESULTS AND DISCUSSION
The results of the frequencies of selected haplogroups analyzed in present populations living in
historically Illyrian area indicate clear differences in their distribution (Table 1).

Haplogroup I
(I1b-P37): The highest frequency is found for
haplogroup I1b-P37 (Rootsi et al., 2004), in the historical
continental areas of
Autariates (63.80%)
Delmatae (48%),
Noricum (20%)
Taulanti (17%),
Dardanians (13.50%)
Liburni (9.5%),
Veneti (0.5%).
This haplogroup is not present in the populations from the areas settled by
Japodes and Histri.

Haplogroup R
(R1b-M137): The highest frequency distribution of R1b-M173 (Kivisild et al., 2003) in the area of
Veneti (62%),
Autariates (27.27%)
Japodes (26.67%),
Noricum (21%),
Histri (18.18%),
Taulantii (17.60%),
Liburni (16.40%),
Dardanians (14.55%) and
Delmatae (7.06%).

Haplogroup R1a:
Its frequency peaks are in north-western areas of
Histri (45.45%),
Liburni (38.40%)
Noricum (37%),
Delmatae (22.58%),
Japodes (13.33%)
Autariates (12.10%),
Taulanti (9.80%)
Dardanians (8.82%).
This haplogroup is absent in the area of Veneti.

Haplogrupa E
(E3b1-M78): The frequencies in our sample are the following:
Dardanians (36.80%),
Taulantii (27%),
Japodes (13.33%),
Veneti (10.40%),
Histri (9.09%),
Autariates (8.50%)
Delmatae (4.66%).
In the area of Noricum this haplogroup is absent.

Haplogroup J (J2-M172):
The frequency peak is found in
Dardanians (15.02%)
Taulanti (14.30%),
Liburni (10.90%),
Veneti (9.60%)
Japodes (6.67%),
Delmatae (2.09%)
Autariates (1.40%).
It is absent in Noricum and the area of Histri

 

[mobileacc200]

Again dreams of Autariates, Taulanti, Liburni and other ancient tribes that carried no I2a-Din nor Slavic R1a and obvious ignoring of Russia, Moldova, Belarus, Poland, Ukraine, Slovakia and other closest I2a-Slav relatives.. And really not so distant ones since I2a-Din has low TMRCA.

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[Garrick]

So, Sarmatians, Thracians, Dacians, German tribes like Bastarnae and also Celts all carried I2a-Din?

If Thracians have carried it, it would be all over Greeks, Albanians and Italians..

When its not but its strongly associated only with Slavs and their expansions like Early Medieval one into a Balkan..

Seems you just throwing theories and im yet waiting for some better explanation. Do you have ancient Sarmatian dna sample tested as I2a-Slav or this is just another theory (wish) of yours?

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a40 using Eupedia Forum mobile app

It is not so trivial how you think.

And I-CTS10228 arrived to the Balkans, thanking Bastarnae and mixed Bastarnae/Thracians, much before Slavs formed, there are historical records about Bastarnae in the Balkans.

Term Slavic many people misinterpret, this primary refers to language, not ethnos.

And "invention" "I2a-Slav " is nonsense.

But enjoy, it will be new thread soon.

 

[mobileacc200]

It is not so trivial how you think.

But enjoy, it will be new thread soon.

Ohh i cant wait, enlighten me please because from where im standing it looks like you cant and not even cant but you hardly refuse to accept facts, and not to mention you are trying so hard to make it look like its not Slavic that only makes you look like you have inferiority issues. Instead of accepting facts. Enlighten me please! Do you have Sarmatian or Tracian ancient dna sample or we are throwing theories like on some market or bazaar here?

 

[Garrick]

Ohh i cant wait, enlighten me please because from where im standing it looks like you cant and not even cant but you hardly refuse to accept facts, and not to mention you are trying so hard to make it look like its not Slavic that only makes you look like you have inferiority issues. Instead of accepting facts. Enlighten me please! Do you have Sarmatian or Tracian ancient dna sample or we are throwing theories like on some market or bazaar here?

You'll wait. Be patient.

 

[Garrick]

a 2004-2006 study by Rootsi and spanish scholars on ancient illyrians

name legend below:
Autariates = Bosnia
Delmatae = Pannonia
Noricum = East-Austria
Taulanti = Montenegro and Albania
Dardanians = Croatia
Histri = Istria
Veneti = North-East Italy
Japodes = Slovenia
Liburni = Italians and Croats

RESULTS AND DISCUSSION
The results of the frequencies of selected haplogroups analyzed in present populations living in
historically Illyrian area indicate clear differences in their distribution (Table 1).

Haplogroup I
(I1b-P37): The highest frequency is found for
haplogroup I1b-P37 (Rootsi et al., 2004), in the historical
continental areas of
Autariates (63.80%)
Delmatae (48%),
Noricum (20%)
Taulanti (17%),
Dardanians (13.50%)
Liburni (9.5%),
Veneti (0.5%).
This haplogroup is not present in the populations from the areas settled by
Japodes and Histri.

Haplogroup R
(R1b-M137): The highest frequency distribution of R1b-M173 (Kivisild et al., 2003) in the area of
Veneti (62%),
Autariates (27.27%)
Japodes (26.67%),
Noricum (21%),
Histri (18.18%),
Taulantii (17.60%),
Liburni (16.40%),
Dardanians (14.55%) and
Delmatae (7.06%).

Haplogroup R1a:
Its frequency peaks are in north-western areas of
Histri (45.45%),
Liburni (38.40%)
Noricum (37%),
Delmatae (22.58%),
Japodes (13.33%)
Autariates (12.10%),
Taulanti (9.80%)
Dardanians (8.82%).
This haplogroup is absent in the area of Veneti.

Haplogrupa E
(E3b1-M78): The frequencies in our sample are the following:
Dardanians (36.80%),
Taulantii (27%),
Japodes (13.33%),
Veneti (10.40%),
Histri (9.09%),
Autariates (8.50%)
Delmatae (4.66%).
In the area of Noricum this haplogroup is absent.

Haplogroup J (J2-M172):
The frequency peak is found in
Dardanians (15.02%)
Taulanti (14.30%),
Liburni (10.90%),
Veneti (9.60%)
Japodes (6.67%),
Delmatae (2.09%)
Autariates (1.40%).
It is absent in Noricum and the area of Histri

Sile
Who has no arguments trying with spam.

But it is a waste of time.

 

[mobileacc200]

Sile
Who has no arguments trying with spam.

But it is a waste of time.

You and your buddy just spammed the crap with that nonsense when i made very good arguments and asked questions, you two spammed just to change subject.

That research is complete crap btw, what were they trying to prove?

Testing people in Slovenia and calling it Liburns like they tested ancient Liburns then trying to represent like they had R1a or I2a-Din. You really have to be low IQ to try to prove anything with it.

It would be like me testing Americans and claiming that Apache or Cherokee tribes were black because there are Afro American haplogroups living now in their territories..

If there is I2a-Din in Dalmatae territory now l its because ancient Dalmatae were exiled and withdraw from these territories and not that you are them.

Same with Slovenians and Liburns and so on..

I2a din is Slavic marker just as all Medieval documents describe Slavic invasion in Balkan in Early Middle Ages.
Wherever Slavs are described to intrude today we find I2a-Din and R1a there.

And where Slavs have not intruded, there suddenly i2a-din stops.

 

[Fatherland]

This thread subject is outdated and should be removed.

 

[Garrick]

You and your buddy just spammed the crap with that nonsense when i made very good arguments and asked questions, you two spammed just to change subject.

That research is complete crap btw, what were they trying to prove?

Testing people in Slovenia and calling it Liburns like they tested ancient Liburns then trying to represent like they had R1a or I2a-Din. You really have to be low IQ to try to prove anything with it.

It would be like me testing Americans and claiming that Apache or Cherokee tribes were black because there are Afro American haplogroups living now in their territories..

If there is I2a-Din in Dalmatae territory now l its because ancient Dalmatae were exiled and withdraw from these territories and not that you are them.

Same with Slovenians and Liburns and so on..

I2a din is Slavic marker just as all Medieval documents describe Slavic invasion in Balkan in Early Middle Ages.
Wherever Slavs are described to intrude today we find I2a-Din and R1a there.

And where Slavs have not intruded, there suddenly i2a-din stops.

No.

Thread speaks about people who brought I-CTS10228 to the Balkans.

And we know now, first Germans (Bastarnae) and Thracians (mixed with Bastarnae) brought this haplogroup to the Balkans, later different populations brought to the Balkans but also bearers of this haplogroup brought out of Balkans, many migrations were from the Balkans in the time of Muslim Ottoman occupation.