I2a1b2a1 (I-CTS10228) - a strong marker of Slavic expansion

There is also a Chuvash sample of A2512. I think that A2512 had mingled with the Greeks and Jewish proselytes in some of the Greek colonies around Crimea and in the Bosporan Kingdom (Tanais, Chersonus, Phanagoria, Pontic Olbia, Tyras, Panticapaeum). Later, the Jews endend in Poland, the Greeks in Greece (the Latin man in Mexico came from Greece), and the Chuvash people picked up A2512 in its way from northern Caucasus along Volga to Chuvash Republic.
 
After a short look at the FTDNA Haplogroup I2a Project, I am almost certain that I am I-A2512. I will need to expand the markers to confirm it. I took the Y-DNA test a long time ago.
 
After a short look at the FTDNA Haplogroup I2a Project, I am almost certain that I am I-A2512. I will need to expand the markers to confirm it. I took the Y-DNA test a long time ago.

Could you tell us something more about your paternal line, e.g. region of origin?
 
Could you tell us something more about your paternal line, e.g. region of origin?

From the Peloponnese. three out of four of the Greeks in the haplogroup tree who are A2512 are from the Peloponnese.

I took only the 25 marker test, and I perfectly match another A2512 at 25 markers. I need to expand and take another test to confirm what looks like A2512 and even find the A2512 subclade.

So now we have a possibility that a different clade came to Greece from the north earlier than the Slavic invasion period. Until a few days ago I had no idea there was this interesting branch of I2a-Dinaric.
 
three out of four of the Greeks in the haplogroup tree who are A2512 are from the Peloponnese.

Sorry I made a mistake. I meant three out of four A2512 Greeks in the FTDNA Haplogroup I2A Project made it into the haplogroup tree. The fourth one is just A2512 with no subclade. That one didn't make it into the tree. Three are from the Peloponnese.

Here is the tree.

https://tinyurl.com/ycwt77ks

Here again is the project.

https://tinyurl.com/y9lopbjq
 
From the Peloponnese. three out of four of the Greeks in the haplogroup tree who are A2512 are from the Peloponnese.

I took only the 25 marker test, and I perfectly match another A2512 at 25 markers. I need to expand and take another test to confirm what looks like A2512 and even find the A2512 subclade.

So now we have a possibility that a different clade came to Greece from the north earlier than the Slavic invasion period. Until a few days ago I had no idea there was this interesting branch of I2a-Dinaric.

I've been saying this for awhile but I think A2512 that went to Greece was probably originally a Scythian.
 
I've been saying this for awhile but I think A2512 that went to Greece was probably originally a Scythian.

Could it have been someone from the Bastarnae people? They seemed to have originated near or in the I2a homeland. Plus, they are reported to have been involved in Balkan warfare right around the time of the TMRCA of A2512, a hundred or so years BC.
 
Could it have been someone from the Bastarnae people? They seemed to have originated near or in the I2a homeland. Plus, they are reported to have been involved in Balkan warfare right around the time of the TMRCA of A2512, a hundred or so years BC.

It could be but did the Bastarnae end as South as the Peloponnese?
 
From the Peloponnese. three out of four of the Greeks in the haplogroup tree who are A2512 are from the Peloponnese.

I took only the 25 marker test, and I perfectly match another A2512 at 25 markers. I need to expand and take another test to confirm what looks like A2512 and even find the A2512 subclade.

So now we have a possibility that a different clade came to Greece from the north earlier than the Slavic invasion period. Until a few days ago I had no idea there was this interesting branch of I2a-Dinaric.

Thank you for reply Ralphie
Raf has explained distribution of haplogroups in Greece (Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin, page 11). I2a is high in Arcadia (20%) and Northern Peloponnese (25%).
On FTdna for Southern Greece we have following results:
S17250:
1x Z16971 -Kythira
3x PH908 (DYS448=19) Athens, Geraki, Kosmas
Y4460:
1 x Y4460* -Lagkadia
Z17855:
1x Z17855 Corinth

A2512:
2x A2512>A10959 -Arcadia and Sparta
1x A2512>A7134 - Messina
2x S17250- ,Y4460- ,Z17855- need A2512 – Arcadia and Zante

There are two dinaric north Y25 (one probably yours, other unknown location) which very likely belong to A2512. Also, a result on Ysearch, (from Diakopi or Dhiakopion, Greece) has close matches in A2512.
There are 3 more dinaric north results from Southern Greece (2x Peloponnese, 1x Agrinio), for them I cannot give any prediction about deeper subclade. The one from Agrionio is very interesting because have 9 or 10 markers of 111 tested that are slightly out of modal for dinaric.
In my opinion A2512 has started to spread around Mediterranean from Peloponnese. Except one from Thasos, rest of positive on this SNP are from The Peloponnese and islands around it. This branch has been also found in Spain, among Jews and Chuvash people from Russia. Tested A2512+ from Spain have Greek origin, also Jewish people might have paternal line from Greece according to Yfull tree.
A man from Chuvashia has completed a Big Y recently (I think) and he is assigned to A2512>A7134, maybe analysis of his results gives us an approximate time when A2512 in Southern Greece and East Europe split up. At least 3 branches of A2512 are present in Greece with TMRCA 2200 years, so very likely a group of people came there in period between 100. BC and 500 A.D
 
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Thank you for reply Ralphie
Raf has explained distribution of haplogroups in Greece (Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin, page 11). I2a is high in Arcadia (20%) and Northern Peloponnese (25%).
On FTdna for Southern Greece we have following results:
S17250:
1x Z16971 -Kythira
3x PH908 (DYS448=19) Athens, Geraki, Kosmas
Y4460:
1 x Y4460* -Lagkadia
Z17855:
1x Z17855 Corinth

A2512:
2x A2512>A10959 -Arcadia and Sparta
1x A2512>A7134 - Messina
2x S17250- ,Y4460- ,Z17855- need A2512 – Arcadia and Zante

There are two dinaric north Y25 (one probably yours, other unknown location) which very likely belong to A2512. Also, a result on Ysearch, (from Diakopi or Dhiakopion, Greece) has close matches in A2512.
There are 3 more dinaric north results from Southern Greece (2x Peloponnese, 1x Agrinio), for them I cannot give any prediction about deeper subclade. The one from Agrionio is very interesting because have 9 or 10 markers of 111 tested that are slightly out of modal for dinaric.
In my opinion A2512 has started to spread around Mediterranean from Peloponnese. Except one from Thasos, rest of positive on this SNP are from The Peloponnese and islands around it. This branch has been also found in Spain, among Jews and Chuvash people from Russia. Tested A2512+ from Spain have Greek origin, also Jewish people might have paternal line from Greece according to Yfull tree.
A man from Chuvashia has completed a Big Y recently (I think) and he is assigned to A2512>A7134, maybe analysis of his results gives us an approximate time when A2512 in Southern Greece and East Europe split up. At least 3 branches of A2512 are present in Greece with TMRCA 2200 years, so very likely a group of people came there in period between 100. BC and 500 A.D

Thanks so much for keeping track of and providing us with I-CTS10228 data for Greeks.
 
I don't know why some say that I-CTS10228 has TMRCA of 2200 ybp, when on the YFULL tree, I see something else:
I just checked the YFULL tree and for this particular subclade, the TMRCA is 3800 ybp.
Are there any updates about this subclade?
If so, than there will be big questions about the theory "not native in the Balkans"...
 
I don't know why some say that I-CTS10228 has TMRCA of 2200 ybp, when on the YFULL tree, I see something else:
I just checked the YFULL tree and for this particular subclade, the TMRCA is 3800 ybp.
Are there any updates about this subclade?
If so, than there will be big questions about the theory "not native in the Balkans"...

Prove with something that CTS10228 is native in the Balkans. For now as far I know subclade CTS10228 has a source in White Croatia or today's southeastern Poland and southwestern Ukraine. How will be in the future I do not know

 
I am just asking weather someone knows about this change?
And I am not saying that this haplo is native to the Balkans, but there is a chance some subbranches of it to have been in the Balkans before the Slavs came in if TMRCA is true!
 
There are probably some subbranches native in the Balkans, we have to look in Albanian and Italian population. If Slavs arrived to Balkans (7th century) someone had to go towards Albania and Italy. In any case we have to wait. What we know for now is that and possible Balkans subbranches of I-CTS10228 have a source in southeastern Poland and southwestern Ukraine. It is for now.
 
Most South Slavs of I2a today belong to I-S17250. It has a TMRCA of 1850 YBP. Two things can be observed in relation to it, into I-Y3120, many belong to Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, etc. There is greater diversity in that area, which means that I-S17250 probably formed there, around 2200 years ago. But if you look below, into I-S17250, Poland, Ukraine and Belarus have almost none of it. That means I-S17250 moved out of the Poland-Ukraine region around the time of the TMRCA and then expanded, although the sample is still relatively small. It would be very interesting to get more data from I-S17250 and if more mutations to it can be discovered, then this theory could be tested: if all the newer mutations are in the Balkans, but none or very few are in Poland and Ukraine, then it would be settled that it came to the Balkans with the Slavs. Even as it is now though, there is fairly strong evidence for it.

As for other clades, there are very few Balkan I2a clades other than I-S17250, and even the ones you can find have relatively young TMRCAs. So it seems almost all I2a came in close waves. It is possible some older I2a might have remained since before the Neolithic expansions, but the current data says close to none of it did.

But even if you get new data and find Balkan I2a with higher TMRCA it doesn't necessarily mean it's pre-slavic. The TMRCA would have to be >2000 or 2500 YBP, but it would also have to be rare in the supposed Slavic homeland in Poland and Ukraine, and less diverse than in the Balkans in its older clades. Otherwise, it could well be that many clades from Poland and Ukraine migrated in the 6th century, bringing their TMRCAs with them.
 
S17250 is present in Ukraine, Belarus and Poland, where its frequency is probably lower than among South Slavs. I-Y3120xS17250 is not totally absent among South Slavs, branch Z17855 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z17855/) was found in Montenegro, Bulgaria and Bosnia and Herzegovina.
 

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