I2a2b in Greece: Native or Slavic

[adamo]

You'll find that some argue that there is a Slavic "package" of R1a and I2a1 that travelled together, hand in hand.

 

[MOESAN]

There were already theories alike. " Pliny the Elder mentions Sarmathian nations of Serboi and Harauata ( assumed to be Serbs and Croats) - they are not Slavic , they just took Slavic languagues".

the ehtnic affinity among great ancient tribes (and more yet those of the steppes) were not always well known - some ancients called the Slavs: "Scythian Peasants" at some time, remember it - the today northern Slavs are for a part Y-R1a close cousins of previous baltic qualification for language, I think - the genuine cradle of first Slavs surely contained more Y-I2a1b than did Balts (Slavs: ex North Tripolje part: today Western Ukraina (Galicia/Ruthenia) was inhabited not too long ago by people among whom 'dinaroid' types were influent, this type being very often associated with Y-I2a1b,; I suppose the core of this population was on the Carpathian highlands which cover not only parts of Romania but also parts of Slovakia, W-Ukraina and S-POland, but the plain Slavs already mixed with some of them, had occasion to take lot of them with them on their travel - all the way, what you say can be correct too: Y-I2a1b was infiltred among other I-E or I-Ecized population of present day Moldovia and around : hard to distinguish among all that...

 

[Dalmat]

the ehtnic affinity among great ancient tribes (and more yet those of the steppes) were not always well known - some ancients called the Slavs: "Scythian Peasants" at some time, remember it - the today northern Slavs are for a part Y-R1a close cousins of previous baltic qualification for language, I think - the genuine cradle of first Slavs surely contained more Y-I2a1b than did Balts (Slavs: ex North Tripolje part: today Western Ukraina (Galicia/Ruthenia) was inhabited not too long ago by people among whom 'dinaroid' types were influent, this type being very often associated with Y-I2a1b,; I suppose the core of this population was on the Carpathian highlands which cover not only parts of Romania but also parts of Slovakia, W-Ukraina and S-POland, but the plain Slavs already mixed with some of them, had occasion to take lot of them with them on their travel - all the way, what you say can be correct too: Y-I2a1b was infiltred among other I-E or I-Ecized population of present day Moldovia and around : hard to distinguish among all that...

our parts were IE way before that, so you cant put all of the IE genetic influence from supposed migration, wich has no archeological backup(there was no cultural shift besides christianity much later on), nor cultural connection, aside few stories written millennia after, also south slavic languages are most archaic slavic languges, and Croatians with Japanese have most maritime terms in the world, which indicates we spent lots of time by the sea.


As for Carpathian-Dinaric connection, culturally it goes long way back in time

from Vučedol culture



to Illyrian




to most of ex YU with Czech and Slovaks , with Hungarians butt in between

 

[Sile]

to Illyrian

View attachment 6067


to most of ex YU with Czech and Slovaks , with Hungarians butt in between

where Phrygia is that should be Pelgasians and phrygian should be where the void is in anatolia

 

[adamo]

I soooooooooooo doubt the Phrygians were I2a

 

[Ike]

The Phrygians (Phruges or Phryges) were an ancient Indo-European people, initially dwelling in the southern Balkans; according to Herodotus, under the name of Bryges (Briges), changing it to Phruges after their final migration to Anatolia, via the Hellespont. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygians)


The earliest mentions of the Bryges are contained in the historical writings of Herodotus, who relates them to Phrygians, stating that according to the Macedonians, the Bryges "changed their name" to Phryges after migrating into Anatolia, a movement which is thought to have happened between 1200 BC and 800 BC perhaps due to the Bronze Age collapse, particularly the fall of the Hittite Empire and the power vacuum that was created. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryges)


The area has been inhabitied since the Mesolithic era (9000-7000 BC). Early inhabitants probably were the Pelasgians, followed by the Mygdones, who gave their name to the region. The Mygdones may have been a Brigian or Thracian tribe. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mygdones)

 

[Sile]

The Phrygians (Phruges or Phryges) were an ancient Indo-European people, initially dwelling in the southern Balkans; according to Herodotus, under the name of Bryges (Briges), changing it to Phruges after their final migration to Anatolia, via the Hellespont. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygians)


The earliest mentions of the Bryges are contained in the historical writings of Herodotus, who relates them to Phrygians, stating that according to the Macedonians, the Bryges "changed their name" to Phryges after migrating into Anatolia, a movement which is thought to have happened between 1200 BC and 800 BC perhaps due to the Bronze Age collapse, particularly the fall of the Hittite Empire and the power vacuum that was created. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryges)


The area has been inhabitied since the Mesolithic era (9000-7000 BC). Early inhabitants probably were the Pelasgians, followed by the Mygdones, who gave their name to the region. The Mygdones may have been a Brigian or Thracian tribe. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mygdones)

he was wrong. Below is what scholars go with

The apparent similarity of the Phrygian language to Greek and its dissimilarity with the Anatolian languages spoken by most of their neighbors is also taken as support for a European origin of the Phrygians.

Some scholars have theorized that such a migration could have occurred more recently than classical sources suggest, and have sought to fit the Phrygian arrival into a narrative explaining the downfall of the Hittite Empire and the end of the high Bronze Age in Anatolia.^[7] According to this recent migration theory, the Phrygians invaded just before or after the collapse of the Hittite Empire at the beginning of the 12th century BC, filling the political vacuum in central-western Anatolia, and may have been counted among the "Sea Peoples" that Egyptian records credit with bringing about the Hittite collapse. The so-called Handmade Knobbed Ware found in Western Anatolia during this period has been suggested to be an import connected to this invasion.
However, most scholars reject such a recent Phrygian migration and accept as factual the Iliad's account that the Phrygians were established on the Sakarya River before the Trojan War, and thus must have been there during the later stages of the Hittite Empire, and likely earlier. These scholars seek instead to trace the Phrygians' origins among the many nations of western Anatolia who were subject to the Hittites.^[8] This interpretation also gets support from Greek legends about the founding of Phrygia's main city Gordium by Gordias and of Ancyra by Midas,^[9] which suggest that Gordium and Ancyra were believed to be date from the distant past before the Trojan War. Some scholars dismiss the claim of a Phrygian migration as a mere legend, likely arising from the coincidental similarity of their name to the Bryges.

Herodotus also mentions that in 492 BC, some Thracian Brygoi or Brygians (Greek: Βρύγοι Θρήικες) fell upon the Persian camp by night, wounding Mardonius himself, though he went on with the campaign until he subdued them.^[8] These Brygoi were later mentioned in Plutarch's Parallel Lives, in the Battle of Philippi, as camp servants of Brutus.^[9] However, modern scholars state that a historical link between them and the original Bryges cannot be established.^[10]

 

[Ike]

Always thought they were Balcanic.
Ok. Deal.

 

[adamo]

There was a colony called Pyrgi off the Tuscan coast and the Phrygians were long mixed up with the Lydians if that gives u any idea.

 

[adamo]

He was of either "Phrygian or Lydian" origin is what you hear often lol

 

[adamo]

I've always thought the Phrygians to be a group of expanding armenoids with J2 and R-L23 lineages predominantly. Always classed them as pelasgic, in line with the Lydians.

 

[MOESAN]

our parts were IE way before that, so you cant put all of the IE genetic influence from supposed migration, wich has no archeological backup(there was no cultural shift besides christianity much later on), nor cultural connection, aside few stories written millennia after, also south slavic languages are most archaic slavic languges, and Croatians with Japanese have most maritime terms in the world, which indicates we spent lots of time by the sea.


As for Carpathian-Dinaric connection, culturally it goes long way back in time


from Vučedol culture
View attachment 6066


to Illyrian

View attachment 6067


to most of ex YU with Czech and Slovaks , with Hungarians butt in between

What is your point?
all the way I never said all Y-I2a1b in Balkans are from Slavs - other I-E came before and could have already mixed with some I2 people of the Carpathians-Balkans -
now concerning invasions and immigrations, archeology does not always show evident traces - but Slavs leaved some "souvenirs" I believe, destroying a lot of things in Balkans - traces by destruction maybe more than traces by construction?
concerning the archaïsm of slavic in Balkans what is your proofs? I rather think that the west and north and east slavic languages show the phonetic qualities that could explain their satemization, when the south slavic ones at the contrary seem to me as learned languages but it is true my opinion is not a specialist one - maybe you base your opinion on the slavonic religious written language existence, do you not? concerning the maritime words in croatian, are they all of slavic origin, or do they comprise some loanwords? (and let's keep in mind some I-E tribes spent a lot of time by the Black Sea) and have you got some proofs of slavic languages spoken in central Europe at higher time? if you give me some data I shall be glad
have a good and fruitful thinking night (fun)

 

[LeBrok]

also south slavic languages are most archaic slavic languges,

I'm not sure about Serbian and Croatian but Bulgarian and Macedonian seem to have simplest grammar of all Slavic languages. One can assume that more complicated grammar denotes place of origin of language, and vice versa with simplified grammar.

and Croatians with Japanese have most maritime terms in the world, which indicates we spent lots of time by the sea.

I'm surprised, as Moesan is, about richness of maritime vocabulary in Slavic tongue. Could you entertain us with a list of Slavic words related to the sea. Let's skip the one associated with lakes and rivers.

 

[MOESAN]

I'm not sure about Serbian and Croatian but Bulgarian and Macedonian seem to have simplest grammar of all Slavic languages. One can assume that more complicated grammar denotes place of origin of language, and vice versa with simplified grammar.


I'm surprised, as Moesan is, about richness of maritime vocabulary in Slavic tongue. Could you entertain us with a list of Slavic words related to the sea. Let's skip the one associated with lakes and rivers.

OK with you, Lebrok -
we have to be carefull when analysing or reading analysis about languages vocabulary - for every kind of conclusion: for sea words, I'm not sure we can exclude lakes words because there have been so much meaning drifts in languages (it is the difficulty of reconstitute the PIE "heimat"!): german 'see' and 'meer', french 'mer' but also 'mare' and 'marais' (marsh?) both last curiously not from latin but from germ-norrois 'mari' or 'marr' ("sea" too)

 

[LeBrok]

OK with you, Lebrok -
we have to be carefull when analysing or reading analysis about languages vocabulary - for every kind of conclusion: for sea words, I'm not sure we can exclude lakes words because there have been so much meaning drifts in languages (it is the difficulty of reconstitute the PIE "heimat"!): german 'see' and 'meer', french 'mer' but also 'mare' and 'marais' (marsh?) both last curiously not from latin but from germ-norrois 'mari' or 'marr' ("sea" too)

The best way would be to use sea animals names. There are so many of them, from fish to seal to octopus, that it would be easy to determine if any language was by the sea for long time.

 

[albanopolis]

Do Greeks with I2a2b descend from Slavic invaders or is it a native haplogroup?

Its Slavic. Northern Greece is mainly Macedonian Slavs which Greek government refuses to acknowledge there existence as an ethnic group. Their capital Salonica, a city of 2 million not long ago spoke Slavic language of Bulgarian dialect. The Slavs score high in I2a. Also in Greece according to some estimates live about 2 million Vlahs which also score almost equal with Slavs in I2a. The region of Thesalonia, Peloponnese and Atica are settlements of South Albanians which also score high in I2a. Don't forget that Slavs are recorded to have had their settlements in Greece. There is no such a thing as native Greek I2a. I also believe that south Albanians got their I2a from Slavs and Vlahs. What is Greek is I1 and J1+j2a+G+T. High occurrence of I2a in Slavs and Vlahs shows that they lived in vicinity of each other and absorbed The I2a people.

 

[Yetos]

he was wrong. Below is what scholars go with

The apparent similarity of the Phrygian language to Greek and its dissimilarity with the Anatolian languages spoken by most of their neighbors is also taken as support for a European origin of the Phrygians.

Some scholars have theorized that such a migration could have occurred more recently than classical sources suggest, and have sought to fit the Phrygian arrival into a narrative explaining the downfall of the Hittite Empire and the end of the high Bronze Age in Anatolia.^[7] According to this recent migration theory, the Phrygians invaded just before or after the collapse of the Hittite Empire at the beginning of the 12th century BC, filling the political vacuum in central-western Anatolia, and may have been counted among the "Sea Peoples" that Egyptian records credit with bringing about the Hittite collapse. The so-called Handmade Knobbed Ware found in Western Anatolia during this period has been suggested to be an import connected to this invasion.
However, most scholars reject such a recent Phrygian migration and accept as factual the Iliad's account that the Phrygians were established on the Sakarya River before the Trojan War, and thus must have been there during the later stages of the Hittite Empire, and likely earlier. These scholars seek instead to trace the Phrygians' origins among the many nations of western Anatolia who were subject to the Hittites.^[8] This interpretation also gets support from Greek legends about the founding of Phrygia's main city Gordium by Gordias and of Ancyra by Midas,^[9] which suggest that Gordium and Ancyra were believed to be date from the distant past before the Trojan War. Some scholars dismiss the claim of a Phrygian migration as a mere legend, likely arising from the coincidental similarity of their name to the Bryges.

Herodotus also mentions that in 492 BC, some Thracian Brygoi or Brygians (Greek: Βρύγοι Θρήικες) fell upon the Persian camp by night, wounding Mardonius himself, though he went on with the campaign until he subdued them.^[8] These Brygoi were later mentioned in Plutarch's Parallel Lives, in the Battle of Philippi, as camp servants of Brutus.^[9] However, modern scholars state that a historical link between them and the original Bryges cannot be established.^[10]

Mygdonians, are Brygian origin, Mygdonians are The Brygian who did not left,
Brygian and phrygian and Frygian is the same, makedonian Dialect from Hesuchius makes clear that makedonians use B instead of F that Ionians did in -ph- Φρεαρ Βρουαρ, Κεφαλη Κεβαλη, Βερενικη Φερενικη, Βατραχις ΑΦορθακις,

Brygian language was Tracian but isotones to Greek so Διος Βακχου, Τιος Βακχο, the later Slavic Bog, later ΔΙΟΣ become Θεος D->Θ from one dental to other, as also Brygian D->T

 

[Yetos]

There was a colony called Pyrgi off the Tuscan coast and the Phrygians were long mixed up with the Lydians if that gives u any idea.

No you are wrong,
Lydian and carians is a strange case, they were Anatolians but we do not know if were IE speakers, or learn IE from Hettit, they could spoke EteoCretan / Eteo Cypriot
They are The Arzawa-Asuwa, they mostly connected with Achaians, and some of them migrate to Greece, in Greek they might be called as Arcadians, put that is not a statement
after the fall of Assuwa, hettits reach Aegean and Miletus, but IE expand all over West minor Asia, that can be the first devastation to Italy, about 1300-1500 BC
Luwang sprung after the fall of Arzawa(exonym given by hettits)

THE LINGUISTIC PROBLEM OF ARZAWA IS SERIOUS ENOUGH, SINCE IF SPOKE IE THEN IE WERE CENTURIES BEFORE HETTIT ENTRANCE OF HETTIT IN MINOR ASIA,
IF NOT THEN LYDIAN AND CARIAN SPRUNG FROM HETTIT AND ALL ANATOLIAN LANGUAGES, WE speak about an Indo-hettit theory,
in second case we can say that pelasgian and Arzawa and sea peoples and Etruscan might be the same, PHoceans ΦΩΚΑΕΙΣ, or we speak about about a Minoan language,

 

[Yetos]

Its Slavic. Northern Greece is mainly Macedonian Slavs which Greek government refuses to acknowledge there existence as an ethnic group. Their capital Salonica, a city of 2 million not long ago spoke Slavic language of Bulgarian dialect. The Slavs score high in I2a. Also in Greece according to some estimates live about 2 million Vlahs which also score almost equal with Slavs in I2a. The region of Thesalonia, Peloponnese and Atica are settlements of South Albanians which also score high in I2a. Don't forget that Slavs are recorded to have had their settlements in Greece. There is no such a thing as native Greek I2a. I also believe that south Albanians got their I2a from Slavs and Vlahs. What is Greek is I1 and J1+j2a+G+T. High occurrence of I2a in Slavs and Vlahs shows that they lived in vicinity of each other and absorbed The I2a people.

I know a better joke, Albanians are Italians but they did not know it.

go and ressurect some threads about that case which case was discused thorougly,

Besides Moansterion was inhabited by Greeks and Tettovo also, Give Tettovo back to Greeks NOW

PS I know a better joke, Italians are Albanians, but Albanians do not it :innocent:

 

[Yetos]

OK with you, Lebrok -
we have to be carefull when analysing or reading analysis about languages vocabulary - for every kind of conclusion: for sea words, I'm not sure we can exclude lakes words because there have been so much meaning drifts in languages (it is the difficulty of reconstitute the PIE "heimat"!): german 'see' and 'meer', french 'mer' but also 'mare' and 'marais' (marsh?) both last curiously not from latin but from germ-norrois 'mari' or 'marr' ("sea" too)

how about from Greek Αλς Als English sea :cool-v: