I2a2b/L38 in Italy?

[MosesE]

I am trying to see if anyone knows anything about the occurrence of I2a2b/L38 in Italy. I belong to a subclade IS2488 which is predominately found in the British Isles. My paternal lineage is Italian, as is the surname. I have traced this back 200 years to Campania region. Does anyone have any Insight?

 

[MosesE]

I am interested in any insight to ancient samples of L38 that may have been found in Italy/Sicily.

 

[losAntonis]

Hi Moses.
I am an I-L38 group admin at ftdna and yfull.
Which test did you do?
Ftdna or other NGS?

 

[MosesE]

Hi I did 23andme, I plan on doing the Big Y test at some point when I can afford it. I am a member of the group at ftdna and the facebook group. My understanding is I have a isles type sub-clade which is strange for someone of Italian paternal origin.

 

[MosesE]

Any Ideas?

I see that you live in Greece? Is it possible there is a Mediterranean Branch of L-38 that has been largely undetected due to sampling bias? Thanks.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

Hi I did 23andme, I plan on doing the Big Y test at some point when I can afford it. I am a member of the group at ftdna and the facebook group. My understanding is I have a isles type sub-clade which is strange for someone of Italian paternal origin.

Not "Isles", but S2599 is Epigravettian refugium.

I2a2/I2a1b = P214 (20,000-16,000 bce)
I2a2a/I2a1b1 (~90%) = M223 (16,000-15,000 bce)
> P222 > CTS616 > FGC15071 > M284 ("Isles" clade)
I2a2b/I2a1b2 (~10%) = S2599 (16,000-14,000 bce)
> S11321 > S2497 > L38 > S2606 > FGC29656 > FGC29569 > S2488

M284 is British Isles Neolithic (pre-Bell Beaker). L38 has been associated with Unetice and Urnfield cultures and may have spread with the Germans to Britain. Your "Italian" paternal lineage could go back to the Normans in southern Italy.

https://www.academia.edu/30611572/I...I2a2b_L38_Getting_Started_with_I2a2b_L38_v1_0

https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/unetice_culture.shtml

 

[MosesE]

I think its likely that it has some Germanic or celtic extract, its hard to say. I was under the impression that most Norman haplogroups were I1 in Italy.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

I think its likely that it has some Germanic or celtic extract, its hard to say. I was under the impression that most Norman haplogroups were I1 in Italy.

We know that L38 > S2606+ is predominantly found in England and Scotland, and some in Ireland. The question is how did your line get to Italy. If southern Italy, the Normans, or someone coming in with them, could be a vector. If northern or central Italy, it could be from the Franks, Germans, etc.

Have you considered joining FTDNA's I-L38 Haplogroup Project? https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/i-2b-2/about/background - I don't think any of their 843 members are on your branch (FGC29656+). You might be able to upload your 23andMe raw data file to FTDNA for free: https://help.familytreedna.com/hc/en-us/articles/4402392808463-Autosomal-DNA-Transfers-Guide

I'm in the I-M223 Haplogroup Project and they've been of tremendous help in sorting out my YDNA puzzle.

 

[MosesE]

Family Tree

Yes I have already joined that group and uploaded my data. I am trying to save up for a big Y test. All of their members who are also IS2488 are located in the British Isles/ Ireland. There are others listed in the FTDNA databases. One is Swiss, the other is located in Morocco. I have no idea if the individual is actually native to Morocco. If that is the case, my first thought was perhaps it spread into Italy via Germanic tribes in the migration period. Perhaps Vandals, Goths, or Lombards. The Normans did have an expedition into North Africa at one point as well.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

Discovery Report for I-S2488:

I-S2488's paternal line was formed when it branched off from the ancestor I-FGC29569 and the rest of mankind around 2250 BCE.

This date is an estimate based on genetic information only. With a 95% probability, the ancestor I-FGC29569 was born between the years 2998 and 1645 BCE. The most likely estimate is 2269 BCE, rounded to 2250 BCE.

This estimate will likely change in the future as more people test and we improve the method.

The Scientific Details section contains more information.

The man who is the most recent common ancestor of this line is estimated to have been born around 2150 BCE.

This date is an estimate based on genetic information only. With a 95% probability, the most recent common ancestor of all members of haplogroup I-S2488 was born between the years 2969 and 1476 BCE. The most likely estimate is 2159 BCE, rounded to 2150 BCE.

This estimate will likely change in the future as more people test and we improve the method.

The Scientific Details section contains more information.

He is the ancestor of at least 3 descendant lineages known as I-Y13074, I-BY91614, and I-FT191169.

Descendant lineages are identified as people test their Y-DNA with the Big Y test.

There are 63 DNA tested descendants, and they specified that their earliest known origins are from United States, England, Ireland, and 7 other countries.

Ancient Connections (common ancestor/relatedness): Heslerton 20641 (2150 BCE/1 in 4,000 testers), 11590 (2700 BCE/1 in 278), and 20675 (2700 BCE/1 in 278) lived 450 - 650 CE in West Heslerton, Yorkshire, England and Buckland 24 (2700 BCE/1 in 278) lived 400 - 800 CE in Dover Buckland, Kent, England.

Note, however, that the common ancestor dates are over 3,000 years earlier. You are also similarly related to Prague 17327 (450 - 200 BCE/1 in 403 - Central Bohemia, Czech Republic/La Tene Cultural Group), Gurgy 32 (300 - 100 BCE/1 in 403 - Yonne, France/La Tene Cultural Group), Esperstedt 2 (2138 - 2010 BCE/1 in 278 - Esperstedt, Germany/Unetice Cultural Group), Prague 7959 (2200 - 1600 BCE/1 in 278 - Central Bohemia, Czech Republic/Unetice Cultural Group), Ellwangen 30 (1486 - 1627 BCE/1 in 278 - Ellwangen, Germany/Second Plague Pandemic Event). You are also very, very distantly related to Cheddar Man (8200 BCE).

So, the most that can be said is a Northwest/Central Europe origination, with your common ancestor branching off anywhere along a general cultural vector of Unetice > La Tene Celts > Medieval Britain > Italy. Hopefully, the Big Y-700 test will help to fill in some of the large "blanks" in this story. What we don't know: If/when your ancestor came to Britain and when/wherefrom he came to Italy.

 

[MosesE]

I agree

I agree I need the big Y test to get to a more accurate time frame. Something of note, the IS2488 seems to be connected with individuals who all have Anglo-saxon surnames within the British Isles. This isn't conclusive evidence of anything, but it does suggest a primarily Continental origin with the Germanic Migrators, as oppose to a native British origin.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

Note the common ancestor date for I-S2488: 2150 BCE, which would be in the time-frame for the Bell Beaker take-over of the British Isles. That could place your ancestor almost anywhere in North Central Europe. I agree that most of the L38 lineages ended up in England with "English" (Anglo-Saxon) surnames, but Welsh (Evans), Scottish (Campbell), Irish (Connolly, Yeats), French (Boucher), Norman/Gaulish (Disney), German (Jung), etc., are also present. Only one surname from Spain (Suarez), a few from Eastern Europe. One from Sicily/Italy (Vallone). None obviously from Scandinavia. Whether your Y-DNA ancestor(s) came to Italy with the Normans, Anglo-Saxon Varangian Guards (fighting for the Byzantines), Crusaders, Pope Adrian, etc., your line has likely been there for a good amount of time.

 

[losAntonis]

I did write a reply, but lost it due to this stupid page.
No S2488 from Italy, yet.
Yes. You need a Y-DNA test,either BigY or at least Y37.
23andme is not a Y-DNA test.
If you are on Facebook join our I-L38 group there.

 

[losAntonis]

I see that you live in Greece? Is it possible there is a Mediterranean Branch of L-38 that has been largely undetected due to sampling bias? Thanks.

There is no Mediterranean branch and no clade in Greece, just one in Almopia in the North of Greece, which is a part of Y125026.

 

[bldec]

I am new to posting and just read this thread. My brother did a Big-Y on FTDNA and received his haplogroup last week: I-BY146010, which was newly created from his test. This haplogroup branched off I-BY14072 and is also the parent of S-27697. Here is the interesting bit: My paternal line is well documented on paper from the province of Chieti, in Abruzzo, Italy, dating back to at least 1650. I recognize that the TMRCA for the haplogroup is something like 2300 BCE, but one wonders how the clade wound up in Italy as all signs point to its being British/Scottish. So I add my information to that of the OP.

 

[MosesE]

I am new to posting and just read this thread. My brother did a Big-Y on FTDNA and received his haplogroup last week: I-BY146010, which was newly created from his test. This haplogroup branched off I-BY14072 and is also the parent of S-27697. Here is the interesting bit: My paternal line is well documented on paper from the province of Chieti, in Abruzzo, Italy, dating back to at least 1650. I recognize that the TMRCA for the haplogroup is something like 2300 BCE, but one wonders how the clade wound up in Italy as all signs point to its being British/Scottish. So I add my information to that of the OP.

It is hard to say, I think what we are seeing is some sort of early medieval/late Roman influx. Although I suppose its possible that a earlier migration of say Latins/or gauls might have carried l-38 into Italy in small amounts. The area is under sampled.

 

[MosesE]

Update: I will be doing a Big Y test soon should give some insight.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

I am new to posting and just read this thread. My brother did a Big-Y on FTDNA and received his haplogroup last week: I-BY146010, which was newly created from his test. This haplogroup branched off I-BY14072 and is also the parent of S-27697. Here is the interesting bit: My paternal line is well documented on paper from the province of Chieti, in Abruzzo, Italy, dating back to at least 1650. I recognize that the TMRCA for the haplogroup is something like 2300 BCE, but one wonders how the clade wound up in Italy as all signs point to its being British/Scottish. So I add my information to that of the OP.

You share a common ancestor with testers who trace their ancestors back to the British Isles. Where he lived, other than somewhere north of the Alps, is anyone's guess. You could, for instance, be related to the Latins > Urnfield > Unitice (which also spawned the Celts) or back through the Longobards, Goths, Franks, Normans, Vikings, etc.

 

[MosesE]

So I have an update, my big Y is not done yet, but as of today is FT191169.

 

[HereToLearn]

It is hard to say, I think what we are seeing is some sort of early medieval/late Roman influx. Although I suppose its possible that a earlier migration of say Latins/or gauls might have carried l-38 into Italy in small amounts. The area is under sampled.

The same happens to me with my subclade of U106.

Probably the best thing to do is determine the MRCA with people bearing the same haplogroup. If those are Northern Europeans and the MRCA is around the late Roman empire / early Middle Ages, then it's likely that it entered Italy during the Germanic migrations.