i2b1 Y-DNA Haplogroups

[genealogy]

Hello,

My Y-DNA haplogroup is i2b1 - I am trying to do a family tree and am looking for any genetic matches who share my i2b1 haplogroup, especially those based in Europe. Please get in touch if you are my genetic match, would be great to hear more information about our shared ancestors and their migratory patterns.

Thanks.

 

[sparkey]

"I2b1" is called "I2a2a" most places now, except for at the testing companies like FTDNA and 23andMe, which are slow to update their nomenclature.

Britain has both apparently ancient (arrived there as early as the Neolithic) and relatively recent (Anglo-Saxon, etc.) I2a2a, as it's a very old haplogroup. The early British varieties are I2a2a1 and I2a2a4, and the latecomers are broader groups nicknamed I2a2a-Cont and I2a2a-Roots. Do you have any STR values tested, or just SNPs? If just SNPs, you may find that you share SNPs with a lot of people that really aren't closely related to you.

 

[hope]

Hi, just wanted to ask if this is B1 subclade from the I2a2a that seems to be lately found in the Ulster area of N.Ireland?

 

[sparkey]

Hi, just wanted to ask if this is B1 subclade from the I2a2a that seems to be lately found in the Ulster area of N.Ireland?

I'm not sure what you're asking, exactly. There is indeed some I2a2a found in Northern Ireland, of different kinds.

 

[hope]

I remember reading a report by Ken Nordtvedt a while back ( I am sure it is well known to you) where he identified a haplogroup he associated with the earliest settlers into the British Isles, 12a2 (old I1b1). He divided it into eight subclades, one of which was B1 which he said was the oldest of the eight subclades and said it was found on the Northern German plains. He also said that it was found in lesser amounts in Scotland and England but quite high in Ulster , Northern Ireland, and that it may have arrived before R1b.

Basically I was wondering if I have understood this correctly and if so has there been any newer reports to confirm or deny this? (I am quite new to this as no doubt you can see)

 

[MOESAN]

I remember reading a report by Ken Nordtvedt a while back ( I am sure it is well known to you) where he identified a haplogroup he associated with the earliest settlers into the British Isles, 12a2 (old I1b1). He divided it into eight subclades, one of which was B1 which he said was the oldest of the eight subclades and said it was found on the Northern German plains. He also said that it was found in lesser amounts in Scotland and England but quite high in Ulster , Northern Ireland, and that it may have arrived before R1b.

Basically I was wondering if I have understood this correctly and if so h STRsas there been any newer reports to confirm or deny this? (I am quite new to this as no doubt you can see)

Maybe is Ken Nordtvedt a solid guy for dating apparition of STRs mutations but he has no magical power to date the arrival of the bearers of theses mutations - I make a very different (and maybe laughable) bet for I2a1b arrival in Brittain: the Beakers OR what was previoulsy named the 'Food Vessels people' !!! to say: very more recent in fact - I add some Y-I2b could have arrived in Brittain with Beakers too, mixed with Y-I2a1b in Scotland before reach North Ireland with the 'beakerized' celtic Picts ? Don't worry, don't go in a fury: it is just a bet, I know! I have no pretention to prove it for now.
ead you again?

 

[hope]

No, I don`t think that`s at all "laughable". In fact it would seem to make a good argument. I suppose it`s a matter of wait and see. Thankyou for your answer, I appreciate it.

 

[sparkey]

I remember reading a report by Ken Nordtvedt a while back ( I am sure it is well known to you) where he identified a haplogroup he associated with the earliest settlers into the British Isles, 12a2 (old I1b1). He divided it into eight subclades, one of which was B1 which he said was the oldest of the eight subclades and said it was found on the Northern German plains. He also said that it was found in lesser amounts in Scotland and England but quite high in Ulster , Northern Ireland, and that it may have arrived before R1b.

Basically I was wondering if I have understood this correctly and if so has there been any newer reports to confirm or deny this? (I am quite new to this as no doubt you can see)

I think you're confusing two haplogroups. I don't know of any divisions in I2a2a that give it a cluster like "B1." There are the groups I2a2a1a-L126 "IslesSc," which is particularly common and possibly fairly ancient in Northern Ireland and the Scottish Highlands, as well as I2a2a4-L623, which is uncommon everywhere but appears in small frequencies in the Scottish Lowlands, mostly, and seems likely ancient there.

The one that has a "B1" group, though, is I2a1b2-Isles, which it sounds like Nordtvedt is mostly right about, although I'm not familiar with his reasoning for B1 in Northern Ireland in particular being uniquely ancient. I suppose it's possible, as B1 is almost as old as Isles as a whole.

 

[sparkey]

Maybe is Ken Nordtvedt a solid guy for dating apparition of STRs mutations but he has no magical power to date the arrival of the bearers of theses mutations - I make a very different (and maybe laughable) bet for I2a1b arrival in Brittain: the Beakers OR what was previoulsy named the 'Food Vessels people' !!! to say: very more recent in fact - I add some Y-I2b could have arrived in Brittain with Beakers too, mixed with Y-I2a1b in Scotland before reach North Ireland with the 'beakerized' celtic Picts ? Don't worry, don't go in a fury: it is just a bet, I know! I have no pretention to prove it for now.
ead you again?

Actually, it's interesting, we have a bunch of largely isolated I2a subclades that ended up in Scotland and Ireland, somehow, and since all we know is that they branched a long time ago with a continental subclade, and that the centers of diversity of the samples that we have on hand at the moment are around Scotland and Ireland, our speculation about them can't be very precise. I'm talking about ones like I2a1b1*-Disles, some of the I2a1b2-Isles branches, I2a2a1, and I2a2a4. All of these could have ended up there as early as the Neolithic, or considerably later, and didn't necessarily come together.

 

[hope]

Thankyou for clarification. I think I`ll reread Nordtvedt ..it may be I read it incorrectly.

 

[pipinnacanus]

Actually, it's interesting, we have a bunch of largely isolated I2a subclades that ended up in Scotland and Ireland, somehow, and since all we know is that they branched a long time ago with a continental subclade,

you are trying to take a non-event and make a mystery out of this. The I2 is Aboriginy. The I2 is some of the oldest Y-dna in europe and falls to the R1a in central / east europe and, later to the invading R1b in the western europe.

Trying to make more of this when its clearly aboriginy and we have the actual archaeological Y-dna to show this is not make sense. Ken Nodrtvedt is not in any remote way any reliable source to base anything on. Ken has asserted that TEN year ago, the I1 is in fact the ancient germans. Now in fact the ancient remains show zero I1 at anyplace of the continent. So far his story is bluster.

 

[Yorkie]

I think you're confusing two haplogroups. I don't know of any divisions in I2a2a that give it a cluster like "B1." There are the groups I2a2a1a-L126 "IslesSc," which is particularly common and possibly fairly ancient in Northern Ireland and the Scottish Highlands, as well as I2a2a4-L623, which is uncommon everywhere but appears in small frequencies in the Scottish Lowlands, mostly, and seems likely ancient there.

The one that has a "B1" group, though, is I2a1b2-Isles, which it sounds like Nordtvedt is mostly right about, although I'm not familiar with his reasoning for B1 in Northern Ireland in particular being uniquely ancient. I suppose it's possible, as B1 is almost as old as Isles as a whole.

Sparkey,
The poster called 'hope' refers to I2a1b2-Isles, and I think the reference may be to a posting of mine rather than to Ken Nordtvedt, who does not post on here. I get my info largely from Ken though.

As far as I can see, there are I2a1b2-Isles members in Ulster but also in the western and southernly half of Ireland. In fact, the bulk of the Irish members appear to be from the western half. The clades seem absent from Wales, thin in lowland Scotland, with a better showing in England, though Ireland has the most. Continent-wise, there are more examples of the older A and B subclades scattered across the north German plain, with Germany having more members, but there are emerging signs that the younger C and D subclades are also found on the north German plain too.

As to whether 'Isles' represents the earliest post-LGM settlers; I think in the Irish cases this might be true of many. However, I have asked people like Bryan Sykes and Peter Forster about the English distribution of this, as yet scientifically unrecognised clade, and they wouldn't rule out an Anglo-Saxon origin for some I2a1b2-Isles. Me neither, in the English cases.

 

[Dubhthach]

Hi, just wanted to ask if this is B1 subclade from the I2a2a that seems to be lately found in the Ulster area of N.Ireland?

Not to be too pedantic but "Northern Ireland" is completely within the province of Ulster. However it's a subset of Ulster (eg. 6 out of 9 counties) the rest of the province is in the Republic (Donegal, Cavan, Monaghan). Either way dealing with ancient haplogroups such as I2 and modern political boundaries (1921-22) is gonna be problematic. As Yorkie points out I2a1b2-Isles is present in the rest of Ireland and is no way restricted to just the province of Ulster. With examples in provinces of Connacht (West) and Munster (South)

 

[hope]

I know, I should have worded it better. I was sure I had read the frequency was higher in , lets call it old Ulster when we were nine, and that it was lower in the South. Doesn`t seem to make sense though, I would have thought it might have been evenly distributed. Any ideas? Like the name by the way, don`t suppose you write any poetry do you

 

[Eochaidh]

Irish county names background

The counties and Provinces of Ireland (as we know them), are relatively new constructs (compared to the dates of yDNA). They are not based upon the ancient 'kingdoms' or tuatha which means people and is cognate to the German Deutch. However, the Ecclesiastical Diocese are based upon the tuatha which is why they straddle the counties.

The counties of Ireland are Norman/English constructs, called the "Shiring of Ireland" which only ended with the Tudors.

In Gaelic times, Louth was in Ulster and Cavan was not (it was in Connacht). Many of the Ulster Cycles tales take place in Louth.

From "The Ecclesiastical Antiquities of Down, Connor and Dromore" - page 352 (from Keating Vol 1 page 132).

"The province of Ulster anciently extended from Droveesh, now the river Drowse, which flows from Lough Melvin into Donegal Bay, dividing the counties of Donegal and Leitrim, to Inver Colpa, the mouth of the Boyne, the river which divides the counties of Louth and Meath. Thus its superficial extent was nearly the same as that of the modern Ulster, inasmuch as it contained Louth, which is now in Leinster, instead of Cavan, which then belonged to Connaught."

 

[sparkey]

you are trying to take a non-event and make a mystery out of this. The I2 is Aboriginy. The I2 is some of the oldest Y-dna in europe and falls to the R1a in central / east europe and, later to the invading R1b in the western europe.

Maybe I'm misreading you, but it sounds like you're taking a quote from me discussing when certain subclades of I2 got to Scotland and Ireland, and assuming I'm talking about how all of I2 got to Europe. I definitely think that I2 is native to Europe, dating to the Paleolithic. I'm less confident about the age of I2a-Disles, I2a-Isles, I2a-IslesSc, and I2a2a4 in that specific region, though. All of them have young enough TMRCAs to allow their arrivals in the region to be relatively late.

Trying to make more of this when its clearly aboriginy and we have the actual archaeological Y-dna to show this is not make sense. Ken Nodrtvedt is not in any remote way any reliable source to base anything on. Ken has asserted that TEN year ago, the I1 is in fact the ancient germans. Now in fact the ancient remains show zero I1 at anyplace of the continent. So far his story is bluster.

We do have ancient I1--Birger Magnusson! And there really hasn't been enough ancient Y-DNA tests of Germanic peoples to expect more than just that.

Otherwise, Nordtvedt's dating of I2a1a as the earliest I2 to expand has panned out, as that's the one we've been finding was most common in the Neolithic. I2a2b also was early predicted to be linked to the spread of the ancient Celts within Central Europe (I believe by Hans de Beule), and that panned out when we found it in the supposedly Celtic or proto-Celtic Urnfield Culture.

I suspect that as we learn more, we'll confirm our suspicions that I1 is ancient in Europe, but didn't expand significantly until after it became part of the proto-Germanic population.

 

[Eochaidh]

As far as I can see, there are I2a1b2-Isles members in Ulster but also in the western and southernly half of Ireland.

As to whether 'Isles' represents the earliest post-LGM settlers; I think in the Irish cases this might be true of many.

Here is a map of known Mesolithic sites in Ireland. It is from Driscoll 2006 (from Waddell 2000).

 

[MOESAN]

you are trying to take a non-event and make a mystery out of this. The I2 is Aboriginy. The I2 is some of the oldest Y-dna in europe and falls to the R1a in central / east europe and, later to the invading R1b in the western europe.

Trying to make more of this when its clearly aboriginy and we have the actual archaeological Y-dna to show this is not make sense. Ken Nodrtvedt is not in any remote way any reliable source to base anything on. Ken has asserted that TEN year ago, the I1 is in fact the ancient germans. Now in fact the ancient remains show zero I1 at anyplace of the continent. So far his story is bluster.

Why so a tone?
Sparkey and others here are very kindl in their manners and trying to figure out obscure problems of History as everyone... this idea of a recent first arrival of the most of Y-I2 in the Isles is mine (for the moment, it can change)
for Y-R1b we are sure of nothing even if the weight is more on the more recent arrival for them - Y-I is "aborigal" if you want, and I think so but its ancient presence in Western Europe does not prove it ancient presence in the Britiish isles, do you understand that ?- Brittain was settled very late compared to the Continent (I know, when it's raining on the Channel the Continent is cut off England!!!)
as we say in Brittany, keep quiet and drink fresh!

 

[MOESAN]

I add I thank Eochaidh and Dubhtach (sounds very gaelic!) for the details they send us about Ireland!
Slainte!

 

[hope]

This is a good map. Whilst there are sites in the West, I see the majority are in the North, where Irelands only source of flint is found.