IE language originated from who?R1a or R1b?

Semitic would later be spoken on the territory of Halaf and Hassuna.
Doesn't say anything about the initial culture. Maybe there was some kind of language replacement? Semitic (AFRO-Asiatic) language sare from more to Southeast (the Levant).

There's also very much of R1b (among Assyrians) on the territory of Halaf and Hassuna. Maybe THOSE Indo-European hg. R1b folks migrated into the Europe.
 
Doesn't say anything about the initial culture. Maybe there was some kind of language replacement? Semitic (AFRO-Asiatic) language sare from more to Southeast (the Levant).

Actually you see that nearly all West Asian area is unrelated to Indo European:
* On the Territory of Halaf and Hassuna: Akkadian, Semitic
*On the territory of Obeid: Sumerian
*In Transcaucasus: Hurrian
*In the Caucasus: Kartvelian, Northwestern Caucasian, Northeastern Caucasian
* In Anatolia: Hattian
*in Iran: Elamite

I think it's a bit too much for your theory that proto IE originated in West Asia.

There's also very much of R1b (among Assyrians) on the territory of Halaf and Hassuna. Maybe THOSE Indo-European hg. R1b folks migrated into the Europe.

What makes you think that those R1b people were IE speakers?
 
Maykop looks merely like a Kurganized Caucasian culture but it was a total failure for its steppic invaders since they never achieved to impose their language. Maykop is not even considered the ancestor of the Anatolian languages by Archeologist. Most favour a Balkanic origin (Suvorovo-Novodanilovka, Cernavoda etc).

Don't you find strange that Indo European and Caucasian languages share so few similarities?
It seems that Uralic languages are the closest relatives. IE languages might have also borrowed from Semitic languages (which could have been the languge of Old Europe). Furthermore, it looks like the Caucasian languages share more similarities with Basque than with IE languages.

You may have noticed that all ancient Caucasian and Transcaucasian languages are non IE:
*Northwest Caucasian languages
*NorthEast Caucasian languages
*Kartvelian
*Hurrian
*Hattian

The only IE languages spoken here are later influx like Armenian (Greek-Phrygian branch of the IE), Kurdish etc.

It's highly unlikely that Old Europe's language was Semitic. If anything, Old Europe's languages were probably like the (now isolated) Basque, Etruscan, et cetera. These languages need derivations from earlier languages, and these languages were probably the languages that most Europeans spoke prior to IE languages spreading to populations.
 
^Yeah I gotta agree with that. I always thought it was things like Basque and Etruscan, as well as more obscure languages which pre-date IE. Whether these were related to each other is uncertain though; could've been many families throughout the continent. Some say Basque was similar to what Iberians spoke, and may have even had links to Berbers in North Africa; others link it to Caucasian languages.
 
Actually it would be weird if hg J, E and T didn't bring Afro-Asiatic (Semitic included) languages to Europe, especially with agricultural movement 10k years ago and seafaring cultures of Mediterranean. There was always a strong influx of tribes through Anatolia in later times too. Who knows what language hg G brought in too.
Basque language might be connected to first none IE R1b tribes coming before IE, and not necessarily related to original European languages.
Also it is very likely that Etruscans were Afro-Asiatic speakers.
 
Several languages families were spoken in the Middle East during the bronze age (Sumerian, Elamite, Hattian, Semitic...) so the first farmers carrying neolithic to Europe may have themselves spoken different languages. Before merging into similar cultures in Europe, EV13, G2a and I2a probably didn't speak the same language.
 
Actually you see that nearly all West Asian area is unrelated to Indo European:
* On the Territory of Halaf and Hassuna: Akkadian, Semitic
*On the territory of Obeid: Sumerian
*In Transcaucasus: Hurrian
*In the Caucasus: Kartvelian, Northwestern Caucasian, Northeastern Caucasian
* In Anatolia: Hattian
*in Iran: Elamite

I think it's a bit too much for your theory that proto IE originated in West Asia.



What makes you think that those R1b people were IE speakers?


well that is the limit and mixing point
but that does not exclude it from strting point

the most ancient known IE are in minor Asia (south west Asia?)
-Hettit
-Luwang

other known in area

-Thracian (Bithuni Myssian)
-Laz Colchian (north Aryan)
-Greek
-Median - Aryan
-Persian
-Armenian

-Sumerian maybe?



All Share G2a3 J2a J2b
also all share R1b M-23 and spoted R1a M17

in Near East / middle east is the point of 3 language meet
Semitic IE and Turkic (Azerbaijan-Caucas)

And I ask again

why G2a3 is excluded from being IE ?
 
Greek is not an archaic Indo European language at all. Actually the Indo iranian and Greek-Armenian-Phrygian families are two branches of the IE family that separated the last from common IE. They have nothing to do with the proto Indo European.
All archeologist agree that the Indo Iranian family is derived from Central Asian Sintashta culture (2100–1800 BC), except Colin Renfrew who thinks that they both are the result of neolithization from the middle east. But the languages written in the Avesta and Rig Veda are so similar that it is impossible that they separated earlier than 2000 BC. Also, there are no clear links between Indian Neolithic and the Fertile Crescent.

The only archaic Indo European languages of West Asia are indeed Hititte and Luwian but the Hittite kingdom was established upon the Hattian land which was not an IE speaking.
 
Greek is not an archaic Indo European language at all. Actually the Indo iranian and Greek-Armenian-Phrygian families are two branches of the IE family that separated the last from common IE. They have nothing to do with the proto Indo European.
All archeologist agree that the Indo Iranian family is derived from Central Asian Sintashta culture (2100–1800 BC), except Colin Renfrew who thinks that they both are the result of neolithization from the middle east. But the languages written in the Avesta and Rig Veda are so similar that it is impossible that they separated earlier than 2000 BC. Also, there are no clear links between Indian Neolithic and the Fertile Crescent.

The only archaic Indo European languages of West Asia are indeed Hititte and Luwian but the Hittite kingdom was established upon the Hattian land which was not an IE speaking.


Correct

but we still miss the colchian
Colchis (south Georgia-Lazistan Lazgin) is the spread area of Hettit and Medean

on the other hand that split which you say as happenned last

lets see

could the Greco-Brygian-Armenian come from Hettit-Luwan?
since even in Greece Hattian had cities

could Avestan come from Hettit-Luwan?

and Finally since Hettit is considered primitive language

COULD HETTITS LEARN THE IE LANGUAGE AS THEY PASS FROM LAZGIN AREA?

the split from late PIE of Greco-Aryan families is done as you say if we exclude tocharian as a separate family

But if we consider that Tocharian share Aorist and infinitives as all Greco Aryan languages
Then Colin Renfrew is right

the problem is when tocharian was split

if we consider them as not connected with Near/middle East then your approach is correct
But if we connect the Aorist forms and infinitives Then surely IE has nothing to do with North Caucas areas
that puts Tocharian in Anatolian languages and in the Greco-Aryan family
PIE were spoken as colin Renfrew say and the split position are tottaly different if we consider AOrist of tocharian.


Part 2
On the other hand

Hattian is not IE and we all know it
But lets face the dilema

Hattian is an Akkadian para-Semitic or a Caucasian language
thats plays a big role,
cause if we consider Hattian as Akkadian that means Hettits did not come with them
But if we consider Hattian as NW caucas that means Hettits had connection with them
 
Actually it would be weird if hg J, E and T didn't bring Afro-Asiatic (Semitic included) languages to Europe, especially with agricultural movement 10k years ago and seafaring cultures of Mediterranean. There was always a strong influx of tribes through Anatolia in later times too. Who knows what language hg G brought in too.
Basque language might be connected to first none IE R1b tribes coming before IE, and not necessarily related to original European languages.
Also it is very likely that Etruscans were Afro-Asiatic speakers.

I actually have to disagree there regarding the Etruscans. What should be pointed out with J1 in particular is that it's rather frequent in the eastern Caucasus and it's possible that J1 may have been associated with the Northeast Caucasian-speaking peoples in addition to Afroasiatic-speakers. There have been attempts to link Etruscan (and it's even more poorly attested cousins Raetic and Lemnian) with the Northeast Caucasian languages.

So, while we know that Haplogroups E1b and G2a were in Neolithic Europe, we actually have no idea of the ethnolinguistic ascription of these folks.

Greek is not an archaic Indo European language at all. Actually the Indo iranian and Greek-Armenian-Phrygian families are two branches of the IE family that separated the last from common IE. They have nothing to do with the proto Indo European.
All archeologist agree that the Indo Iranian family is derived from Central Asian Sintashta culture (2100–1800 BC), except Colin Renfrew who thinks that they both are the result of neolithization from the middle east. But the languages written in the Avesta and Rig Veda are so similar that it is impossible that they separated earlier than 2000 BC. Also, there are no clear links between Indian Neolithic and the Fertile Crescent.

The only archaic Indo European languages of West Asia are indeed Hititte and Luwian but the Hittite kingdom was established upon the Hattian land which was not an IE speaking.

There is another source for Indo-Iranic languages namely the "Mitanni" loanwords (from around the 14th century BC): you have a considerable number of clearly Indo-Aryan (that is Indic, not Indo-iranic) derived loanwords that were borrowed into the Hurrian language.

My main point of criticism (which actually isn't just mine) with Colin Renfew's idea is that he can't explain how the Proto-Indo-European language is supposed to have had words for horses, the wheel, wheeled vehicles and metals if the first farmers (which Renfew identifies as the speakers of PIE) had none of that. At the same note, it should be added that *if* Renfew is right, then it must be clearly argued that G2a was the original Indo-European Haplogroup. But, what would this make of the Haplogroups R1a and R1b?
 
Actually it would be weird if hg J, E and T didn't bring Afro-Asiatic (Semitic included) languages to Europe, especially with agricultural movement 10k years ago and seafaring cultures of Mediterranean. There was always a strong influx of tribes through Anatolia in later times too. Who knows what language hg G brought in too.
Basque language might be connected to first none IE R1b tribes coming before IE, and not necessarily related to original European languages.
Also it is very likely that Etruscans were Afro-Asiatic speakers.

I was under the impression that Etruscan as a Semitic language was obsolete for quite a while. There's a lot of scholarship that dismisses it.

I'm sure there was a small minority of Semitic languages coming into Europe, but there is no indication that Semitic languages predominated in Europe at any period. What we do have is a bunch of ancient language isolates.
 
There is another source for Indo-Iranic languages namely the "Mitanni" loanwords (from around the 14th century BC): you have a considerable number of clearly Indo-Aryan (that is Indic, not Indo-iranic) derived loanwords that were borrowed into the Hurrian language.

My main point of criticism (which actually isn't just mine) with Colin Renfew's idea is that he can't explain how the Proto-Indo-European language is supposed to have had words for horses, the wheel, wheeled vehicles and metals if the first farmers (which Renfew identifies as the speakers of PIE) had none of that. At the same note, it should be added that *if* Renfew is right, then it must be clearly argued that G2a was the original Indo-European Haplogroup. But, what would this make of the Haplogroups R1a and R1b?
Proto-Indo-European language has nothing to do with Uralic languages and the Steppes. If that was the case proto-Indo-Europeans would carry also pretty much of Northeuropean-Uralo-Mongoloid hg. N1c1 and Europoid hg. I1.
 
Proto-Indo-European language has nothing to do with Uralic languages and the Steppes. If that was the case proto-Indo-Europeans would carry also pretty much of Northeuropean-Uralo-Mongoloid hg. N1c1 and Europoid hg. I1.

Why should Haplogroups N or I1 be connected with the steppe? Haplogroup N is far more probable to have moved along the taiga zone from Siberia, and Haplogroup I1 in the time of the Neolithic was basically a single male lineage (which presumably lived either in northern Germany or southern Scandinavia) which did not live in the steppe, either.

As for the Uralic languages, it's well-known that the Uralic-speaking peoples did have prolonged contact with Indo-European-speaking peoples over a very long time (including Indo-Iranic, Proto-Balto-Slavic, Proto-Germanic, Old Norse, etc.) due to the fact that there's numerous of such loanwords.
 
Why should Haplogroups N or I1 be connected with the steppe? Haplogroup N is far more probable to have moved along the taiga zone from Siberia, and Haplogroup I1 in the time of the Neolithic was basically a single male lineage (which presumably lived either in northern Germany or southern Scandinavia) which did not live in the steppe, either. As for the Uralic languages, it's well-known that the Uralic-speaking peoples did have prolonged contact with Indo-European-speaking peoples over a very long time (including Indo-Iranic, Proto-Balto-Slavic, Proto-Germanic, Old Norse, etc.) due to the fact that there's numerous of such loanwords.
Because hg. N1c1 and Europoid hg. I* were in that region before hg. R1a. arrived!

Actually hg. N1c1 and hg. I* were pretty much more native to let me say Ukraine on the west side of the Steppes.

The Steppes folkes had always very close ties with Finno-Turko-Mongoloid tribes in the northern parts of Eurasia.


If Proto-Indo-Europeans came from that area they would be at least partly (Finno-Turco-)Mongoloid.
 
Because hg. N1c1 and Europoid hg. I* were in that region before hg. R1a. arrived!

Actually hg. N1c1 and hg. I* were pretty much more native to let me say Ukraine on the west side of the Steppes.

Why? If you look at the distribution of Haplogroup N in Europe it's clear that it's tied to taiga zone, rather than the steppe. It's also clear that both Haplogroup N and the Uralic languages (which are very likely tied with each other) are immigrants to Europe. Early immigrants yes (in the sense that they may have arrived as early as the Mesolithic), but still immigrants.

Regarding Haplogroup I, if you take a look at Sparkey's map, a connection between Haplorgoup I and the steppe is also dubious.

In contrast, older subclades of Haplogroup R1a may have very well been lurking somewhere in Eastern Europe. Since we have no really ancient (that is, Neolithic) samples from Eastern Europe this possibility cannot be ruled out at the moment.

The Steppes folkes had always very close ties with Finno-Turko-Mongoloid tribes in the northern parts of Eurasia.

Well, had they really? A close linguistic connection between the Finnic and Turkic/Mongolic languages (the so-called Uralo-Altaic languages) has fallen out of favour. In comparison, the Turkic languages are a very young family (iron age, approximately comparable in age with the Germanic or the Romance languages - though the latter is more comparable because the difference between, say, Turkish and Uyghur is as big as say, between Spanish and Italian). It's very likely because of this that 2000 years ago, Turkic-speaking peoples were confined to East Asia.

If Proto-Indo-Europeans came from that area they would be at least partly (Finno-Turco-)Mongoloid.

Well, as described above, there's really no particular reason to assume that.
 
If you follow the same logic, all Europeans are 'immigrants'. And I'm convinced that hg. N1c1 was one of the very first haplogroups in the northern parts of Eurasia and that it was there before hg. R1a arrived.

Also according to Dienekes there're hints of East/Central Asian admixture in Northern Europe. And I do see hg. R1a arrving into Northern Europe after hg. N1c1.

"The northern dispersal route would have brought them into contact with the mixed Caucasoid/Mongoloid population of West Siberia and Eastern Europe, and they may have carried some of this DNA across their sweep over Northern Europe."

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/07/hints-of-eastcentral-asian-admixture-in.html

Also it's also very impossible that Y-DNA hg. R1a lived for thousands of years separated from other groups. If It was the case there would be also just 1 mt-DNA haplogroup.

The proof that hg. R1a was not alone is proven by the fact that there’re a lot mt-DNA linages along with Y-DNA hg. R1a.


The only question for me remains: were proto-Indo-European 'Europoid' (from Europe) or 'Caucasoid' (from West Asia)? But since Europoids are somehow hybrids of native Europeans, Caucasoids and Finno-Ugric-Mongoloids, I'm pretty much convinced that proto-Indo-Europeans were just Caucasoids from West Asia!
 
My main point of criticism (which actually isn't just mine) with Colin Renfew's idea is that he can't explain how the Proto-Indo-European language is supposed to have had words for horses, the wheel, wheeled vehicles and metals if the first farmers (which Renfew identifies as the speakers of PIE) had none of that. At the same note, it should be added that *if* Renfew is right, then it must be clearly argued that G2a was the original Indo-European Haplogroup. But, what would this make of the Haplogroups R1a and R1b?

Correct that is the major problem of Renfrew
except if explained by colours !!!!!

example is word axe Gr αχις -ινος
and Iranic Axein (sory if spell wrong)
Black sea was name ΑΞεινος Pontos
Axein (or something like that) means black
and we all know that early iron was black
or from black - red stones extract

copper is yellow or dark Green
modern Greek words for yellow is κιτρινος could be connection?
Greek word for Green is Χλωρος after χλοη Chloe compare Slavic Zeleno ch->Z
But also prasino Πρασσινο (dark green colour of copper rust)
prassino is consider that delivered from κυπρος (kupros is the copper not bronze)
Κυπρος ->Κυπ(α)ρισσος-> (Κυ)Πρασσινος

compare chalkos Bronze ka+ko = χαλκος
maybe copper after ko+pa+ro (Green stone)???
although unattested but possible

now lets face what we see today
the one who finds something BAPTISES the invention

lets see Computers where found somewhere in US I think and name as Computer but the Greek word is Υπολογιστης. But not only Greeks even Chinese I believe or Maori in N zealand name it as Computer and not with their native language.

so what about Chariot invention has the name of the Inventor who could be not even IE and share the words to others as the Kurgan people expand
 
I was under the impression that Etruscan as a Semitic language was obsolete for quite a while. There's a lot of scholarship that dismisses it.

I'm sure there was a small minority of Semitic languages coming into Europe, but there is no indication that Semitic languages predominated in Europe at any period. What we do have is a bunch of ancient language isolates.

Etruscan is about 900 BC +- statistical mistake,
their language is connect with 2 languages
one is Caucasian I think NW caucas
and the other is Semitic
their possible connection with Hattians and Pelasgians also leads towards Akkadian phoenician or Hath-languages of Caucas
 
map_grasslands_steppes.jpg


http://www.exploringnature.org/db/detail.php?dbID=44&detID=572
 
Etruscan is about 900 BC +- statistical mistake,
their language is connect with 2 languages
one is Caucasian I think NW caucas
and the other is Semitic
their possible connection with Hattians and Pelasgians also leads towards Akkadian phoenician or Hath-languages of Caucas

The connection with the Caucacus hasn't been proven, only postulated. Do you have some good sources that give compelling arguments?

Moreover, once again, I have read that the Semitic hypothesis has been entirely debunked. What sources do you have that revive it?
 

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