IE language originated from who?R1a or R1b?

[JFWR]

Why? If you look at the distribution of Haplogroup N in Europe it's clear that it's tied to taiga zone, rather than the steppe. It's also clear that both Haplogroup N and the Uralic languages (which are very likely tied with each other) are immigrants to Europe. Early immigrants yes (in the sense that they may have arrived as early as the Mesolithic), but still immigrants.

Regarding Haplogroup I, if you take a look at Sparkey's map, a connection between Haplorgoup I and the steppe is also dubious.

Haplogroup I as a whole, actually, does strongly correlate with the Ukrainian step as much as the rest of Europe. You were dealing only with I2 with that map, which is a sub-clade of the larger I haplogroup. I2 is not quite associated with that area.

 

[sparkey]

Because hg. N1c1 and Europoid hg. I* were in that region before hg. R1a. arrived!

Actually hg. N1c1 and hg. I* were pretty much more native to let me say Ukraine on the west side of the Steppes.

Haplogroup I as a whole, actually, does strongly correlate with the Ukrainian step as much as the rest of Europe. You were dealing only with I2 with that map, which is a sub-clade of the larger I haplogroup. I2 is not quite associated with that area.

Do you guys know of any particular evidence to link Haplogroup I to the steppes that I don't know about? The only Haplogroup I subclade that I know about that bucks the distribution pattern in my Paleolithic Remnants map is I2a1b2-Alghafaar, which is known by one sample in Iraq only... nothing tied to the steppes.

 

[Goga]

By the Steppes I mean a region on the west side of Volga river: Ukraine & South Russia. The European part of the Steppes so to speak. This is what the majority of people are talking about, right? Not the Steppes in Central Asia.

So there's lots of hg. I on the left (Euro) side of Volga river, the European parts of the Steppes...

 

[Yetos]

The connection with the Caucacus hasn't been proven, only postulated. Do you have some good sources that give compelling arguments?

Moreover, once again, I have read that the Semitic hypothesis has been entirely debunked. What sources do you have that revive it?

their connection with Phoenician laphabet (Pyrgi tablets) and lemnean stele as also some remnants in Greek language and some written by ancients leads towards ether hattians either 'West'-Akkadians- Phoenicians

We know Etruscans were minor Asian population.

there many posts in the forum about Thyrrenians.

 

[sparkey]

So there's lots of hg. I on the left (Euro) side of Volga river, the European parts of the Steppes...

Nowadays, sure. But I'm pretty sure that it's dominantly I2a-Din-N, which got there about 2500 to 6000 years ago... surely more recently than some of the R1a there, am I right?

I guess it's possible that I2a-Disles is the geographic outlier on that branch, rather than I2a-Din (even though I2a-Din is farther from its other nearest known I2a cousins). That could push it back to 12,000 years old in the steppes at most. But surely that isn't known, and doesn't seem like a good assumption at all to me.

 

[JFWR]

Do you guys know of any particular evidence to link Haplogroup I to the steppes that I don't know about? The only Haplogroup I subclade that I know about that bucks the distribution pattern in my Paleolithic Remnants map is I2a1b2-Alghafaar, which is known by one sample in Iraq only... nothing tied to the steppes.

By the Steppes I mean a region on the west side of Volga river: Ukraine & South Russia. The European part of the Steppes so to speak. This is what the majority of people are talking about, right? Not the Steppes in Central Asia.

So there's lots of hg. I on the left (Euro) side of Volga river, the European parts of the Steppes...

Here's the Wikipedia page on the rough distribution of all types of haplogroup I. Plenty of I in European steppes, though not, of course, in Asiatic steppes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA).PNG

 

[JFWR]

Nowadays, sure. But I'm pretty sure that it's dominantly I2a-Din-N, which got there about 2500 to 6000 years ago... surely more recently than some of the R1a there, am I right?

I guess it's possible that I2a-Disles is the geographic outlier on that branch, rather than I2a-Din (even though I2a-Din is farther from its other nearest known I2a cousins). That could push it back to 12,000 years old in the Steppes at most. But surely that isn't known, and doesn't seem like a good assumption at all to me.

Well, the Balkans themselves housed refuge populations of I haplogroups during the LGM, and the Ukraine is just a spit's throw East of there...

I mean it is pretty telling that the European IE homeland is right near high concentration of Haplogroup I, too. This is, again, not to say that IE developed with I, but there is certainly evidence to suggest that IE developed with I's all around if not part of the culture that spawned it.

 

[JFWR]

their connection with Phoenician laphabet (Pyrgi tablets) and lemnean stele as also some remnants in Greek language and some written by ancients leads towards ether hattians either 'West'-Akkadians- Phoenicians

The tablets were written in dual languages and make sense considering the Phoenicians had dealings with Italians from previous to the Romans till the Romans destroyed them.

The Greeks and Romans said the Etruscans spoke no language that anyone else could understand nor knew where it derived.

We know Etruscans were minor Asian population.

there many posts in the forum about Thyrrenians.

I don't think that is well attested in scholarly resources. The Etruscans show no signs of being themselves Asiatic, but obviously influenced by other mediterrenean cultures, including the Greeks most prominently.

 

[sparkey]

Here's the Wikipedia page on the rough distribution of all types of haplogroup I. Plenty of I in European steppes, though not, of course, in Asiatic steppes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA).PNG

We're talking about when Haplogroup I arrived in the steppes, though, and whether or not it's older than R1a there. Obviously there has been some I2a-Din-N expansion there, as well as some apparent Germanic introductions (I1, I2a2a-Cont, etc.) as you get closer to places like Crimea, but the point is, it all seems to be young there.

 

[sparkey]

Well, the Balkans themselves housed refuge populations of I haplogroups during the LGM, and the Ukraine is just a spit's throw East of there...

It may have, but nowadays, the Balkans has very low Haplogroup I diversity, so if it did, modern populations don't give an obvious indication of it. Most Balkans Haplogroup I is of the I2a-Din-S variety, which looks to be a 1st millennium CE introduction, probably as a result of gene flow from around Ukraine via southern Poland. We've talked about this a lot on this forum, here and elsewhere.

I mean it is pretty telling that the European IE homeland is right near high concentration of Haplogroup I, too. This is, again, not to say that IE developed with I, but there is certainly evidence to suggest that IE developed with I's all around if not part of the culture that spawned it.

I think that IE was in Europe long before I2a-Din-S was introduced to the Balkans, so I don't think that your observation tells a lot. But, I concede that Haplogroup I-dominant populations being absorbed into IE populations has been an important part of the history of the development of different IE cultures in Europe (and even a bit outside Europe--see the minor expansion of Haplogroup I in Kurds and Armenians).

 

[ebAmerican]

IJ originated around Iran, and split to I* that took a path through the Steppe and made it to the Balkans by the Upper Paleolithic and spread across Europe where it bottlenecked in the Baltic and created I1. So, I* was probably represented in the Steppe HG population. J* stayed in Iran and took a west Asian route along the Mediterranean. All this happened way before PIE which is postulated at 5700-6000BP. I would guess that the steppe HG population was I* and N* who spoke an Uralic and Altaic language. From what I've read most populations didn't live in the Steppe (but the periphery), that is was a supper highway for constant migration.

 

[Taranis]

The tablets were written in dual languages and make sense considering the Phoenicians had dealings with Italians from previous to the Romans till the Romans destroyed them.

The Greeks and Romans said the Etruscans spoke no language that anyone else could understand nor knew where it derived.

I don't think that is well attested in scholarly resources. The Etruscans show no signs of being themselves Asiatic, but obviously influenced by other mediterrenean cultures, including the Greeks most prominently.

There is genetic evidence (from cattle, amongst other things) that the Etruscans arrived from Asia Minor. Additionally, there is the Lemnian language which was apparently similar to Etruscan. Beyond that, I agree that a Semitic or Afroasiatic connection for Etruscan is spurious, other than the fact that the Etruscans traded heavily with the Phoenicians, and as a result the Etruscan language also borrowed Semitic words. But by their grammatical structure and core vocabulary, Etruscan was very different from the Semitic languages.

 

[sparkey]

IJ originated around Iran, and split to I* that took a path through the Steppe and made it to the Balkans by the Upper Paleolithic and spread across Europe where it bottlenecked in the Baltic and created I1. So, I* was probably represented in the Steppe HG population.

You're sure of all of this? There's too much time between the three IJ branches to be sure where IJ originated, although I agree that West Asia, "around Iran" (as long as "around Iran" is a very big area) is by far the most likely candidate. As for I*... modern Haplogroup I has its center of diversity closer to Central Europe than West Asia, so why assume that it had split from IJ in the steppes? Although I can't say for certain, I find it at least as likely that IJ was introduced to Europe, and then differentiated into I*.

I would guess that the steppe HG population was I* and N* who spoke an Uralic and Altaic language. From what I've read most populations didn't live in the Steppe (but the periphery), that is was a supper highway for constant migration.

Who are the I* and N* remnants? Anybody?

 

[ebAmerican]

Sorry, I was using the * incorrectly. I meant a commonly known snp mutation for I and N found in current populations (like the ancestor of I1a or N1b).

 

[Yetos]

I think after all these debates we all gain something but we must recosinder and put the problem again in a new questions

 

[spongetaro]

There is genetic evidence (from cattle, amongst other things) that the Etruscans arrived from Asia Minor. Additionally, there is the Lemnian language which was apparently similar to Etruscan. Beyond that, I agree that a Semitic or Afroasiatic connection for Etruscan is spurious, other than the fact that the Etruscans traded heavily with the Phoenicians, and as a result the Etruscan language also borrowed Semitic words. But by their grammatical structure and core vocabulary, Etruscan was very different from the Semitic languages.

The Etrsucan god Tarchon was inspired from Luwian god Tarhunt. Moreover, Etruscan were famous for practising Haruspicy which originated in Mesopotamia. So I would localize their Heimat in the Border region between Anatolia and Mesopotamia, in one of the NeoHittite state. Their language was maybe a remanant of the old Hattic dialect.


Distribution of the Luwian language

NeoHittite states

 

[ebAmerican]

"The Annual Review of Anthropology article by Hammer and Zugura (Vol.31,
2002, pp. 303-321) gives estimates of the age of the various y-chromosome
clads (Table 1). For I (P19/M170), the estimate is 5,950 years (standard
deviation 2,450)"

I find it interesting that based on their calculation (I) didn't enter Europe until 3950BC. It looks like everybody who lives in Europe today came with the Neolithic expansion from the east. So, did R1A push (I) from the Steppes to Central Europe where it mutated into I1 north and I2 south?

 

[sparkey]

"The Annual Review of Anthropology article by Hammer and Zugura (Vol.31,
2002, pp. 303-321) gives estimates of the age of the various y-chromosome
clads (Table 1). For I (P19/M170), the estimate is 5,950 years (standard
deviation 2,450)"

I find it interesting that based on their calculation (I) didn't enter Europe until 3950BC. It looks like everybody who lives in Europe today came with the Neolithic expansion from the east. So, did R1A push (I) from the Steppes to Central Europe where it mutated into I1 north and I2 south?

Hammer and Zugura 2002 is the only publication I know of to have given anywhere near that low an estimate, so I'm quite sure that it's inaccurate. Every other publication I've seen has given something in the 20,000s. Nordvedt's tree is my favorite... it gives ~22,000, corresponding closely to Karafet's 22,200 YBP estimate.

 

[Taranis]

Hammer and Zugura 2002 is the only publication I know of to have given anywhere near that low an estimate, so I'm quite sure that it's inaccurate. Every other publication I've seen has given something in the 20,000s. Nordvedt's tree is my favorite... it gives ~22,000, corresponding closely to Karafet's 22,200 YBP estimate.

Not to mention that I2a (wasn't it even I2a1a, I can't seem to remember?) was found in samples from Treilles (dated to ca. 5000 YBP).

 

[ebAmerican]

"The I1 subclade of Haplogroup I is estimated to be 4000 to 5000 years old (the old "15,00-20,000years ago in Iberia" information was wrong), and confirmed by the single nucleotide polymorphism, SNP, known as M253."

Another source - from Family Tree DNA