If hg. IJ folks were Cro-magnon who were R* folks?

 
sparkey said:
I agree that Cro-Magnons almost certainly carried some IJ in their population, and that modern Haplogroup I is probably a descendant of that. I doubt, though, that Haplogroup J is descended from Cro-Magnons... Haplogroup J is probably descended from a different IJ carrying population.

R*, meanwhile, would have been very Asian in the Paleolithic. Pinpointing exactly where they were is more complicated, but older forms of R1a, R1b, and R2 help give us an understanding. I'm not familiar enough with the Asian Paleolithic to cite specific archaeological cultures that would have been R* dominant, though.
Click to expand...

Are Amerindians and Siberians considered Cro magnon too? Since R* evolved from QR and that most Amerindian people have haplogroup Q, the original R* people might have a look similar to that of the Siberians and Northern Amerindian with slight asian features.


If R* people had slight asian features, the europoid features can only come from IJ.
R1a and R1b people mix heavily with native anatolian and European people (as seen by mtdna of present day european) and might thus have lost their slight asian features.
 
spongetaro said:
Are Amerindians and Siberians considered Cro magnon too? Since R* evolved from QR and that most Amerindian people have haplogroup Q, the original R* people might have a look similar to that of the Siberians and Northern Amerindian with slight asian features.


If R* people had slight asian features, the europoid features can only come from IJ.
R1a and R1b people mix heavily with native anatolian and European people (as seen by mtdna of present day european) and might thus have lost their slight asian features.
Click to expand...

Haplogroup Q-M25 seems more like a Caucasian Haplogroup with similarities to East Asian phenotypes. Beside that The R lineages seem to be a fully Caucasian Haplogroup with ties to East Asians. Considering that R and Q both have the same parent, Hg P.
 
I'm not sure about K being possible Cro-Magnon. Anyways, Siberian and Amerindian haplogroups have the center of diversity so far from the Cro-Magnon influence, nobody would follow to consider them Cro-Magnons. No way sorry, I don't see it.

Only Europe, West Asia, the Middle East and North Africa, seem to had very important Cro-Magnon presence. Then, only IJ appears as the most obvious option for a huge influence in the most remote antiquity. The rest it's very difficult to say, and it's more likely to discard it.
 
Alan said:
do you think this persons might have Cro-Magnon phenotypes.
http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/3457/awazeciyaxezal03kq7.jpg
http://hpg-sehit.com/media/k2/items/cache/7faf56e5874604be96ba8fa8c4e07ea4_XL.jpg
http://hpg-sehit.com/media/k2/galleries/479/serxwebun_ahmet_okur_2.jpg
Click to expand...

Not sure, that's not my specialty. We mostly just have bone shape to go by, which tells us a bit about their face shape and stature. I don't know if we also have data on other Cro-Magnon phenotypes, like complexion. I'm fairly sure they had dark eyes and hair.
 
spongetaro said:
Are Amerindians and Siberians considered Cro magnon too? Since R* evolved from QR and that most Amerindian people have haplogroup Q, the original R* people might have a look similar to that of the Siberians and Northern Amerindian with slight asian features.
Click to expand...

Under Goga's theory, you could say that Amerindians have Cro-Magnon ancestors. But I don't know of anyone but Goga who holds this at the moment. Knovas put it well.
 
sparkey said:
Under Goga's theory, you could say that Amerindians have Cro-Magnon ancestors. But I don't know of anyone but Goga who holds this at the moment. Knovas put it well.
Click to expand...

But what does Cro Magnon eventually mean in terms of physical features?
 
spongetaro said:
But what does Cro Magnon eventually mean in terms of physical features?
Click to expand...

Since when has "Cro-Magnon" been defined in terms of physical features? It basically means "European Paleolithic Homo Sapiens," especially the earlier/more western ones. I suppose Cro-Magnon physical features can be any that are common among that population.
 
what science??? Does anthropological science exists after all?
As every HG is born by an older HG, even the naming of the big macro-HG is ridiculous!
why R or Q or P or A orL or...?
why not A1, A2, A1b3c1f13..........................x25 in place of R1b, for example (A for all the Human Beings)
it's true that someones are closer between them an others excluded of the considered cluster
I agree that Cro-Magnon is a vaste cultural-temporal naming that can have included more than one of these ARBITRARY NAMED HG's (men HG's only)

but i'm right when, letting the HG's and HT's I examine the existance of true well studied phenotypes created by true biallelic autosomals, and we are sure they lived in the region that gave its name to the prototype: the very big differences between them and others types found in the same regions (same way of life, same natural environment) could be caused by ancient separations of lineages - I'm aware that it will be very hard to make bridges between haplogroups and phenotypes (for the nature of their different sensibility to selection (I'm not a two weeks old rabbit) - the phenotype a choosed for Cro-M. paradygm is not the first arrived there, maybe... It was just to think about possible yet differentiated lineages -(no more a community: Cro-magnon is for me a too unprecise term - Let's say Paleolithic of the ... Culture.

It is no more possible to speak of present days phenotypical Cro-M's homogene population in Wales or elsewhere, BUT YOU CAN see people that indivdually carry some of the unchanged features of their ancestors on their own faces, an more or less according to the region!!! and they are more dense in some regions... But that part of my post was for the people who have eyes, not an effort trying to link a determined HG to a determined phenotype
just to question and bet, not to affirm as a scholars (they affirm and do a lot of errors themselves)
all is OK
 
Alan said:
do you think this persons might have Cro-Magnon phenotypes.
http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/3457/awazeciyaxezal03kq7.jpg
http://hpg-sehit.com/media/k2/items/cache/7faf56e5874604be96ba8fa8c4e07ea4_XL.jpg
http://hpg-sehit.com/media/k2/galleries/479/serxwebun_ahmet_okur_2.jpg
Click to expand...

just to play!!!
the first: not my local precise Cro-Magnon NOT AT ALL : opposite features
the two others seam to present some common features with my 'local' one, (the second more than the third, even with a tatse of brachycephalization: a German?).
good night
but as a rule my 'local' has a shorter face, a bit larger too
 
MOESAN said:
As every HG is born by an older HG, even the naming of the big macro-HG is ridiculous!
why R or Q or P or A orL or...?
why not A1, A2, A1b3c1f13..........................x25 in place of R1b, for example (A for all the Human Beings)
it's true that someones are closer between them an others excluded of the considered cluster
Click to expand...

That's sort of off topic, but I don't have a problem with arbitrarily giving shorthand names to haplogroups at certain points in the haplogroup tree. If you prefer, instead of "Cro-Magnons had Haplogroup IJ" we could redo the tree with only "A" and say "Cro-Magnons had Haplogroup A1b3b1b3a," and it would mean the same thing.

Hey, that would make my haplogroup A1b3b1b3a1b3... I think I'll stick with "I2c." See, shorthand is useful.

MOESAN said:
It was just to think about possible yet differentiated lineages -(no more a community: Cro-magnon is for me a too unprecise term - Let's say Paleolithic of the ... Culture.
Click to expand...

I think you're exploring a different question than the rest of us, and for our question, "Cro-Magnon" is sufficient, because the answer would be the same for all the different Cro-Magnon populations, based on what we know now.

For phenotypes, it may be more useful to define the different groups, yes, and draw distinctions between their bone structure.
 
Alan said:
do you think this persons might have Cro-Magnon phenotypes.
http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/3457/awazeciyaxezal03kq7.jpg
http://hpg-sehit.com/media/k2/items/cache/7faf56e5874604be96ba8fa8c4e07ea4_XL.jpg
http://hpg-sehit.com/media/k2/galleries/479/serxwebun_ahmet_okur_2.jpg
Click to expand...
Why do you involve modern humans into this discussion?

The thing with the ancient Cro-Magnon is that they got a very distinguish jawline and they got a very 'characteristic' chin! And not a protruded teeth / mouth area (African feature) if you know what I mean.

cromagnon3.jpg


cromagnonsideskull.jpg




http://www.donsmaps.com/cromagnon.html


Btw, those Kurds look very Irano-Nordid to me! Big long faces, big jawlines and a 'characteristic' chins!
 
Cro-Magnon vs. Grimaldi fella with African features from South Europe.

Cro-Magnon
cromagnon3.jpg


Grimaldi fella
grimaldi.jpg
 
This is probably how a real Cro-Magnon fella looked like. With dark skin.

cromagnonmens.jpg
 
MOESAN said:
just to play!!!
the first: not my local precise Cro-Magnon NOT AT ALL : opposite features
the two others seam to present some common features with my 'local' one, (the second more than the third, even with a tatse of brachycephalization: a German?).
good night
but as a rule my 'local' has a shorter face, a bit larger too
Click to expand...

Sorry dont understand what you mean with your local. He is not German they are Kurds.
 
Goga said:
Why do you involve modern humans into this discussion?
Click to expand...

read the quotes. Sparkey wrote that he doesent thinks their might be still phenotypes which can be connect to ancient cro-magnons. I asked if those do. I mean such narrow faces are most likely to be found among Kurds than any other West Asian population. And Haplogroup I might be the difference in Kurds vs. other West Asians.
 
Alan said:
read the quotes. Sparkey wrote that he doesent thinks their might be still phenotypes which can be connect to ancient cro-magnons. I asked if those do. I mean such narrow faces are most likely to be found among Kurds than any other West Asian population. And Haplogroup I might be the difference in Kurds vs. other West Asians.
Click to expand...
I know that ideas of Carleton S. Coon & the science he practiced are outdated nowadays. But "Carleton S. Coon in his The Races of Europe classifies the Indo-Afghans and Irano-Afghans as Nordic, describing them as being long-faced, high-headed and nose-hooked." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranid_race

But there ain't no hg. 'I' in Central Asia (Tajikistan)! So I believe that it has also something to do with J2 (and maybe R1a & R2a). And you will find the looks of the Kurds you posted also in the Caucasus among non-Iranic or Indo-European population! Caucasians don't have much of 'I' either...
 
Alan said:
Sorry dont understand what you mean with your local. He is not German they are Kurds.
Click to expand...

they are Kurds and with different phenotypical features (but I think the two last ones presents some apparent influences of Cro-magnon type. The first is very long-narrow big faced and in on a opposite side, very different form C-M features

to answer you my 'local 'is just very like the photo GOGA put on this thread -Go to rugby countries of Aquitania and to Wales: this type is not uncommon there, just a little reduced but still with this dychotomie between large short face an big long low crania (a so called 'long barrow' crania shown by COON as typical seams to me as bearing a mixture of C-M features and accretions of a more 'mediterranean' looking type of man): is it a hazard if the 'long barrows' people remnants is found yet among some Welsh local populations. And that some 'long-barrows' metric means was found in buryings of Megalithic coastal North Europe? I don't think so.

about Kurds, they are crossed types with 2 different brachycephalic strains and dolichocephalic componants where I believe I see a Indo-Irano-Afghan one as being very important but not the unic one -
I believe that the means COON published for his typical 'Corded' people encompassed true high Nordic types with some mixture of Brünn type and Indo-Irano-Afghan type: COON and others even thinked that 'dinarics' was a stable mixture of 'Alpin' and a kind of 'Brünn' or Indo-Afghan or what he called 'Cappadocian' (Anatolia) mediterranean type : difficult to find his way here and to assign an HG to a type even if ti's tempting.
so these mixture of tall dolicho's in the russian steppes could have had blond and black haired people it: some regions of the South-West Asia show a lot of brown haired-green eyed people where History tells us there were ancien iranian invaders. some Kurds are of light complexion and on this brown-green model (but not a lot): same iranian origin? not surprising -(look at the Lurs and some regions of Armenia more fair-haired too): 'corded' mixture among 'mediterraneans' and 'alpine-dinarics' without forget some Cro-Magnon remnants ? (because C-M could have born more than a modern phenotype by evolution, except the 'brünn' model): not to far from Armenians, but with an influence from South Central Asia (a low level one)
&: for 'dinarics' I prefer retain a well-evolved homozygotic phenotype for now, but I'm not sure.
 
Dagne, I think your picture probably matches better a Grimaldi man. I don't expect Cro-Magnons having such negroid traits.
 
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