If hg. IJ folks were Cro-magnon who were R* folks?

[Alan]

I know that ideas of Carleton S. Coon & the science he practiced are outdated nowadays. But "Carleton S. Coon in his The Races of Europe classifies the Indo-Afghans and Irano-Afghans as Nordic, describing them as being long-faced, high-headed and nose-hooked." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranid_race

But there ain't no hg. 'I' in Central Asia (Tajikistan)! So I believe that it has also something to do with J2 (and maybe R1a & R2a). And you will find the looks of the Kurds you posted also in the Caucasus among non-Iranic or Indo-European population! Caucasians don't have much of 'I' either...

The Reason why I came to the conclusion this phenotype might be connect to HG I has nothing to do with Coon or any other political motivated, biased and outdated scientist, for example the euro-nordocentric Egon von Eickstedt who replaced the racial term "Caucasian" with Europid and tried to create a Nordic connection with almost any big and ancient civilizations.
The Reason why I connected HG I with this phenotype is because it is most characteristic in whole of West Asia for Kurds and not typical for any other Caucasian or Iranian Group.
The so called Irano-Afghan race is based on metrical similarities of some Groups which have not much genetic connection. The difference between Groups inside this "Irano-Afghan" race are huger as differences to some other groups with different phenotypes.

For example a Armenoid Armenian or mtebid-Pontid Northcaucasian is genetically (and also phenotypical imo) closer to an Iranian Irano-Afghan as a Northindid Northindian. Totally the opposite of what Egon von Eicksteidt  preached the people. Of course there is a genetic binding between Northindians and Iranians but this binding is only based on some genes. But what 3rd Reich anthropologists like Eikstedt tried to do was to create a link between historic Aryans and Nordid Europeans. And for this goal he picked out from both Iranian and Indo Aryan Groups each one phenotype(out of many) with metrical similarities to each others and of course Nordics and connect ancient Aryans with them. And no Haplogroup R2 and R1a are not connected with long and narrow faced People. You as a Georgian Kurd should know that. Even your own relative looks no way extremely long faced.

Georgian Kurds with 44% R2a. How many of them have long narrow faces?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ep6KRw6TkE

 

[Goga]

I do not understand you at all. Europid, Armenoid, Pontid etc., I lost you. For every region there's an -id, lol. I'm not into this stuff and sorry but this doesn't make any sense to me and looks more like pseudoscience to me.




Now I do undertsand why Cro-Magnon defeated Neanderthal man, look at the height differences.

http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk/336cromagnon.php

 

[MOESAN]

It's just a play for phenotype isn't the core of this thread on Cro-Magnons or so called
the Western ones (France caves in perigord) would have been the model of some survivals: thin lips, thick skin with deep dimples, short enough nose, broad but very projected nose with snub tip - for today complexion, not obligatory too dark: the countries I believe I find their individual remnants show a very high percentage of mid-brown haired, almost "two much" , andmid-green-grey eyed people - but in the way to Western Europe lot of them had the time to undergo mutations, so... everybody could be right - for features, nothing evoking a typical Subsaharian African of today not form far -

 

[MOESAN]

Sorry dont understand what you mean with your local. He is not German they are Kurds.

by local I mean local french Perigord paradigme type of Cro-Magnon (paleo) - and "german" was a guess: to say that SOME SELDOM Kurds have Western European looks - but the most of them present the same mixture as the Armenian people, but with a little taste of South Asian (Indies) influences upon that - not to say that 'armenian' look is not caucasian! but more south-eastern than european -

 

[MOESAN]

http://exploring-africa.blogspot.com/2010/01/following-trails-of-cro-magnon-ii.html

I think this is how a Cro Mangnon looked liked:

I think you are far enough from the model for the face (but close enough for the general lines:
the gonials (jaw horns) should be lower and the chin more projecting - and why a so negroid nose?: on the basis of skeletal evidence, true Cro-Magnons (not SOME OF THE GRIMALDOIDS (I say SOME because the majority of Grimaldoids was closer to Cro-Magnon than the wife and the child taken as paradigmes) had a projecting upper nose - and concerning the skin colour, we don't know precisely what it was: it seams Cro-Magnon spend a long time living in cold climates - sure, if you speak about Cro-Magnons ancestors 20000 years before our ones, you can guess what you want: a middle colour skin as on your picture could be very suitable -

 

[MOESAN]

This is probably how a real Cro-Magnon fella looked like. With dark skin.

for skin we don't know yet - but WHY a dark skin? (here the skin is middle and not dark) - but i think that his skin could have grew lighter a long time ago already, in Siberia or Eastern Europe - look at the East Asians of Corea/North China/Siberia - for the features, I prefer this reconstitution to DAGNE's one (nose, hairs)

 

[Dagne]

The website that I copied the picture of Cro-Magnon from says that "the specimen above, tagged as BC-093, was uncovered in South-Western Germany [in the Rhine River deposits] near Mainz"...
And I trust that the reconstruction must have been made following scientific approaches. See in the corner (C)BBC.

Though on the other hand I don't know how much that article is unbiased, because I understood that there must have been other Cro-Magnon "specimens" which might have had quite different appearance, but their reconstructions were not showed.

... http://exploring-africa.blogspot.com/2010/01/following-trails-of-cro-magnon-ii.html

So I really can’t judge about the Cro-Magnon appearance. I can only say that to my mind the reconstructions of Neanderthal show more similarity with modern Europeans (at least in Northern parts).

 

[MOESAN]

The website that I copied the picture of Cro-Magnon from says that "the specimen above, tagged as BC-093, was uncovered in South-Western Germany [in the Rhine River deposits] near Mainz"...
And I trust that the reconstruction must have been made following scientific approaches. See in the corner (C)BBC.

Though on the other hand I don't know how much that article is unbiased, because I understood that there must have been other Cro-Magnon "specimens" which might have had quite different appearance, but their reconstructions were not showed.

... http://exploring-africa.blogspot.com/2010/01/following-trails-of-cro-magnon-ii.html

So I really can’t judge about the Cro-Magnon appearance. I can only say that to my mind the reconstructions of Neanderthal show more similarity with modern Europeans (at least in Northern parts).

Thanks for your precisions
You made seriously your job – pseudo-science is not only the fact of autodidacts : scholars do a lot of approximations too sometimes (look at medecine) -
I got to that site : I knew the crane in question but I looked at it again – and I don't change my mind – this reconstruction is an artistic one, and don't deserve the scientific label – this crania like the others qualified as 'cro-magnoid' is a good enough example even if it is not the paradigme - and it shows a projecting nose (and narrow nose) – all the examples I could see or I red about in diverse places of Europe had a projecting nasal bone (more than my one) : for the width don't confuse wide nasal aperture and negroid flat nose : the cro-magnons have often wide nasal aparture BUT with a projecting upper nasal bone that made them a not too esthetic fine nose ! (my nose is not too projecting and neverthelss I have a very narrow nasal aperture) -
this reconstruction follows the cranial lines as a whole but fails all the way for the nose : too flat – it seams to me an 'a priori' guided the work (maybe a tentative to avoid too extreme types on any side?) - the mandible vertical branch seams me just a litlle too short ans the chin not enough projecting? Giving a not enough quadrangular face ? – I know it's impossible to guess the fleshy parts of a face on the only bony cranial features – itsn't the first time I disagree with that kind of work - I saw many TV broadcasts where « authorized » people did « scientific vulgarization » (anglo-saxon speaking world is found of that) and everytime If saw people I qualify 'artists' explaining how to reconstruct facial traits : sure the muscular marks on bones can help to guess the muscular relief in some way but things like fat, eyelids, nostrils, nose cartilages, lips and hair form are impossible to guess -
for a neanderthal, I 've not more confidence in any reconstruction :
the nearest examples of today people living in region where 'cro-magnoid' bone types or 'cro-magnoid' mesocephalized types can be recognized concerning crane and face show a tendancy toward thin lips', short nose with « potetoe » half snub fleshy nose and projecting 'galoche' chin – and a thick skin and a hairy beard and eyebrows – the most of them are living in Central and North Atlantic Europe, with some places in North and central Europe – but individuals can be seen in every country of Europe, very seldom -

 

[Dagne]

Well I am not an expert to have any judgement on reconstructions... I can see that there is considerable reservation towards this reconstruction because the Cro-Magnon looks very much like an African rather than present-day European.

The reconstruction was made by a leading UK forensic scientist Richard Neave. In other cases he seems to have been competent
(see http://www.bbc.co.uk/crimewatch/solved/forensicfiles/facial_reconstructions.shtmle, where he helped police track down the killer of Harjit Singh Luther, by reconstructing the victim's face. His body had been found in a field and his skull was crushed, meaning police were unable to identify him. It wasn't until the reconstruction was shown on Crimewatch that police were able to track down the victim - and his killer).

Was he simply incompetent with regard to Cro-Magnons reconstruction, or the remains were of too deteriorated or was there a secret agenda somewhere behind this reconstruction? One can only speculate about it ...

Common sense makes me to believe that if I were this scientist I wouldn't risk my reputation by producing a fraud/unlikely reconstruction because surely everyone (including peer experts in reconstructions) will scrutinise this work with upmost attention.


The best is to wait until a full sequencing of Cro-Magnon DNA is made and compared to modern humans and those of Neanderthal...

 

[MOESAN]

reputation? Sykes and other went very far and fast, too far sometimes in conclusions, according to other scientists -

for your 'africanoid Cro-Magnon', look again at the nose top (bridge) ! and for fleshy parts of body, I hold on! (I'm not alone) / for bony features, sure, they had a solid ground but...- and I'm a bit doubtful about american science... (scoops, papers and the remnant) - look also at the opposition between afrocentrists and eurocentrists about ancient Egyptians!!! scholars all of them!
and the common DNA researches will say nothing to us about external phenotypes of Cro-magnon and Neanderthal at a precise time - nothing else to say about this question, i'll wait alike you -
thanks for answer and happy new year!
all the way, sure, you can be prudent

 

[Dagne]

Happy New year MOESAN!

I may well be naive with my judgements about scientific integrity ... So let's wait what kind of discoveries the New Year brings to us!

 

[MOESAN]

Happy New year MOESAN!

I may well be naive with my judgements about scientific integrity ... So let's wait what kind of discoveries the New Year brings to us!

I'm already happy! Thanks.
And everybody is naive in some degree even the "heavier brained" ones...

 

[MOESAN]

Happy New year MOESAN!

I may well be naive with my judgements about scientific integrity ... So let's wait what kind of discoveries the New Year brings to us!

I'm already happy but thanks
and on other hand, everybody is naive in some degree even the 'heavier brained' people - I'm not an anti-official-science but I saw (as other) so many "scientific affirmations" an theories breaking in pieces in a short time...

 

[Ramses II]

The so-called "Grimaldi Man" is the only one like it in existence. Why? Because first of all, Grimaldi "Man" is actually a female whose upper maxilla are protruded, the skull shows Caucasoid features. The adolescent had all its teeth but were deliberately manipulated by the discoverers, Boule & Verneau by drilling/tampering the teeth.

 

[MOESAN]

The so-called "Grimaldi Man" is the only one like it in existence. Why? Because first of all, Grimaldi "Man" is actually a female whose upper maxilla are protruded, the skull shows Caucasoid features. The adolescent had all its teeth but were deliberately manipulated by the discoverers, Boule & Verneau by drilling/tampering the teeth.

the model of Grimaldian type is based on a female and a child - manipulated or not (teeth) they showed some cro-magnon affiliations and at the same time some negroid facial features (maybe the frontal too in some way) - crossing? primitive negroid? uneasy to say - but the surveys on néolithic-chalcolithic populations of the Mediterranee had showed that an element very close to the cro-magnoids appeared yet in these areas (5-8% of the people in some regions?), the more striking differences being an higher crania in the skull region up the ears but not so high at the inferior plan, more prognatism, bigger teeth not speaking about a lot of visible differences in skull and face profile - Charles linked this type to someones found in Egypt anf thought to a neolithic population from North Africa -
the problem of genetical origin (pure, crossing of Cro-Magnoids with previous subafrican types? is not resolved for what I know - what is sure is that the 'grimadli' type is not only a dream or an individual case -

 

[MOESAN]

I add a larger and broader nose hole

 

[CrowMagnus]

Haplogroup IJK is probably 45,000 years old. IF the Cro-Magnon that entred Europe at the firtst place were hg. IJK folks that would mean that R* is actuallty also a Cro-Magnon haplogroup!

But if that was not the case then haplogroup IJK, later NOP -} P* -} R* all mated with the different hominids before the came to Europe! But my question is who were these R* folks. And with what kind of hominid species did they mated?

Cro-Magnon seemed to have a great affinity with R1A and R2A. And they with him. Look at the nearly 50/50 overlap in Sweden between I subclades in total and R subclades. That general trend is also seen centered around Holland, Denmark and Northern Germany.

Even thousands of years ago R1A was also quite tall. Cherchen Man, one of the hundreds of exceptionally well preserved mummies in the Tarim Basin was 6 feet 6 inches tall as were others. All of the Tarim Basin mummies tested were R1A1A. I find those people absolutely captivating to look at. As if they might rise up and talk with you. Show you how much care and effort they expended in creating simple but beautifully artistic objects like their clothes and grass baskets. And the lengths they went to place their dead in their chambers and tend to them afterwards.

 

[MOESAN]

The fact that Y DNA % can be magnified by male elite domination complicate a lot our efforts to link autosomals and Y, helas!
near 'cromagnon' types was found (I saw no crania, only readings, I regret) supposedly in the North of russian steppes at proto-historic times, mixed with other high statured dolichocephalic people but high faced, not suqare faced as these 'cromagnons': someones speak about 'proto-nordic' type without precising more (a new habit in scientific vulgarization papers) -
the present center of 'slavic' form of Y-R1a is close enough, is it sufficient to say 'cro-magnon' = Y-R1a ??? I avow I thought to this me too without any certitude, R1b: western 'Cr-M', R1a: eastern 'Cr-M' - I would not bet a penny before knowing more even if tempting:
in W-Siberia has been found a first possible I-E population OR PRE-I-E population (thet's the question) with mtDNA U-derived close to the mesolithic sorts, but little after these population showed mtDNA coming from the East Caspian region (J & others: "neolithic like") - was the R1a elite from the previous stock or from the second one? I'll try to find this abstract I red -
kouskit mad, gwrit hunvreoù kaer! sleep well, do agreable dreams!

 

[jjmuneer123]

The fact that Y DNA % can be magnified by male elite domination complicate a lot our efforts to link autosomals and Y, helas!
near 'cromagnon' types was found (I saw no crania, only readings, I regret) supposedly in the North of russian steppes at proto-historic times, mixed with other high statured dolichocephalic people but high faced, not suqare faced as these 'cromagnons': someones speak about 'proto-nordic' type without precising more (a new habit in scientific vulgarization papers) -
the present center of 'slavic' form of Y-R1a is close enough, is it sufficient to say 'cro-magnon' = Y-R1a ??? I avow I thought to this me too without any certitude, R1b: western 'Cr-M', R1a: eastern 'Cr-M' - I would not bet a penny before knowing more even if tempting:
in W-Siberia has been found a first possible I-E population OR PRE-I-E population (thet's the question) with mtDNA U-derived close to the mesolithic sorts, but little after these population showed mtDNA coming from the East Caspian region (J & others: "neolithic like") - was the R1a elite from the previous stock or from the second one? I'll try to find this abstract I red -
kouskit mad, gwrit hunvreoù kaer! sleep well, do agreable dreams!

Phenotypes have nothing to do with HG. R1a1a people were most likely dolicephalic, so that rules out them being cro-magnon who are brahcephalics.

 

[MOESAN]

Phenotypes have nothing to do with HG. R1a1a people were most likely dolicephalic, so that rules out them being cro-magnon who are brahcephalics.

You are not coherent!
you say HG have nothing to do with phenotypes, that is only partially true: statistical links exist, but subject to possible (and verified) modifications, what is not NO LINK! or if you prefer, there is not everytime more links within autosomals than between autosomals (acting in phenotypes) and haplogroups of Y - and roughly taken, your affirmation is just THE SAME I did in my post but your incoherence is in the fact you LINK Y-R1a to dolichocephalic which is a phenotypical (and so autosomal+environmental) feature ! contradicting your proper affirmation that I share for the most part just being more cautious -
+ 'cro-magnon' types firstable was dolichocephalic; meso-brachycephally is a later developpement occurred in Europe (W& E) and not everywhere -