Only as illustration, nothing more.
But agree, your comment is ok.
The point is that there are no historical maps of BC where you can find Albanians.
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Illyrian-Albanian Continuity
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Only as illustration, nothing more.
But agree, your comment is ok.
The point is that there are no historical maps of BC where you can find Albanians.
LeBrok
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I would say, till 5 century AD there is nothing much any modern country or nation of Europe can relate to, besides Greeks and Italians.
Yes, and it is very good observation.
Because it is clear from today's scientific knowledge there are no continuity between Illyrians and Albanians.
It is only myth for those who want to believe in it.
As usual the main people that question Albanian history are the Serbs (and maybe a Croat pretending to be Italian), because they're mad about Kosovo and they have no real identity of their own before the middle ages. Why don't you people talk about Kosovars, the people you are mad with, and don't even mention Albanians. It's like being mad at Germans and attacking Austrians.
Sile
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a croat trying to be italian ......lol .............nah, I am an albanian trying NOT to be an Albanian ....rofl
You clearly cannot debate ............take your bat and ball and go home!
Bardhyl
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Calling albanians africans cause of E-v13 is dangerous considering e-v13 in italy greece montenegro macedonia albania kosovo bulgaria romania.. With quiet high percentages in those countries.
yes albanians dont call themselves like that woow nice observation Shqip (1st hypothesis speak clearly, to differentiate from slavs turks greeks in middle ages 2nd hypothesis shqiponje eagle), germans call themselves also deutsche... Scotish i heard call themselves alba if i am not mistaken...and kosovo call themselves like that only because of slavic called this area like that they usually would call themselves dardans...but due to large slavic and long lasting power of slavs they see themselves as kosovans...
yes albanians dont call themselves like that woow nice observation Shqip (1st hypothesis speak clearly, to differentiate from slavs turks greeks in middle ages 2nd hypothesis shqiponje eagle), germans call themselves also deutsche... Scotish i heard call themselves alba if i am not mistaken...and kosovo call themselves like that only because of slavic called this area like that they usually would call themselves dardans...but due to large slavic and long lasting power of slavs they see themselves as kosovans...
So you don't know what you are...Good luck with your miserable existence "trying NOT to be an Albanian..". So just for kicks: what are you trying to be now that you don't want to be Albanian anymore?
Ike
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I don't care whether it's dangerous, if it's true. If half of Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbs, Bosnians, and majority of Kosovars and Montenegrins are really Egyptians, so be it.
Yeah, right. We don't even know if people who claim to be Albanians today, were on Balkans before Christ, as there is no evidence of any continuity, and yet you are claiming that they would call themselves Dardanians. Yes, that old Dardanians would probably call themselves Dardanians if they were present today, but what's that got to do with Albanians? Get some arguments before you make claims like that...
1. You have just one little thing missing in there. There is no Albanian history to question. As you have noticed, most of European nations have a history starting from middle ages (as goes for the majority of Balkan countries), but Albanians don't even have that. Instead of trying to make one up, go out and try to prove it. There is no point of being mad at me, for not having evidence to support your claims.
2. This has got nothing to do with who is one mad with. Stop trying to avert this. This is a thread about Albanian-Illyrian continuity, and if you don't have something constructive to say don't start a counter-attack just because you don't like the truth. Who gives a funk if Serbs and Croats don't have identity. OK, they were spawned in 1844. So what? If Slavs weren't here, that's a conclusive proof of Albanians being Illyrians?! If you don't have an arm, that means you have three legs?
Sile
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to make you happy , I will be any nationality you want me to be, but that still does not change my view in regards to an illyrian - albanian link. I would have the same argument EVEN IF I was albanian. Lies and propaganda are taught by nations to its people, there is only about 50% truth IMO, learn this fact.
Bardhyl
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says the slav who came 600 ad in balkans? If you call greeks as people from ancient according to dna you automatically have, yes you have to call albanians at least as ancient only according to Dna, because similarity is frightening Dude. because this is just a forum nothing which you say is going to be published, we are just discussing, most scholars believe that albanians are descendants of illyrians and thats whats counts, not only as people but also as a language, the only language is albanian which helps illyrian words and names what is left to be given a meaning.
Why is no e-v13 in egypt today or no significant amount?
kosovo is also 21% r1b and 16% j2b
germans - deutsche - allemagne, allemanen
scotland - alba
greece - helenes
switzerland - helvetia - eidgenosse
There are plenty of countries which call themselves differently personally as opposed other countries do.
Is it just jelousy or hatred or what is it to be opposing constantly,
it is useles if you call albanians newcomers according to dna do the same not wih half of greece with whole greece and almost whole italy almost whole bulgaria ev13 j2 in all those countries only not in hrvatska my friend am sorry, white hrvoje. Even servia has e-v13 j2b only croatia not.
This theme is pointless.
What is continuity?
General Science
noun
http://www.dictionarycentral.com/definition/continuity.html
Can we talk about that situation in the case of Illyrians and Albanians?
No.
When Illyrians disappeared from the historical scene?
In first half of 3rd century AD.
When was the first evidence about Albanians?
In the 11th century.
The gap is more than 8 centuries.
And where we can see continuity?
Nowhere, the continuity don't exist.
It is fact.
Fictional continuity is only myth, without facts.
What is continuity?
General Science
noun
- the situation of not stopping or being interrupted
http://www.dictionarycentral.com/definition/continuity.html
Can we talk about that situation in the case of Illyrians and Albanians?
No.
When Illyrians disappeared from the historical scene?
In first half of 3rd century AD.
When was the first evidence about Albanians?
In the 11th century.
The gap is more than 8 centuries.
And where we can see continuity?
Nowhere, the continuity don't exist.
It is fact.
Fictional continuity is only myth, without facts.
We gave plenty of evidence but you seem to have a vested interest not to accept it because it would make the Serbs in Kosovo appear as invaders and oppressors, so you're playing this endless game of denial and asking for more proof. That's the easiest thing to do if you don't want to accept something.
I'm not going to repeat myself everytime somebody asks for it, read the threads and try to understand. The proof was given. If you don't accept it, that's your problem.
Sile
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they are invaders, I thought you knew history, the thracian component of serbs are natives, the slav component are invaders.
Thracian component of Serbs are natives? I don't seem to understand that please explain further?
Recent genetic analysis comparing DNA samples of ancient Thracian fossil material from southeastern Romania with individuals from modern ethnicities place Italian, Albanian and Greek individuals in closer genetic kinship with the Thracians than Romanian and Bulgarian individuals.
So that means the Albanians are more native to the Balkans then Serbs? Right? That's what you're saying if I understand your statement correctly.
It's funny seeing how many people here seem to do they're own researches and are so completely absorbed by they're so called "researches" that they actually believe them to be true.
And at the same time I think it's fun that people are willing to research on they're own spare time but please come one let's just stop with all the BS and let the real and neutral linguistics, historians etc, point out who is the real continuators of the Illyrians.
By that I do not mean Serbian historians or your professors neither the Albanian ones.
Why I'm saying this is cause both countries are full of propaganda but Serbs especially have a long history of politicians using propaganda and lying to they're own people ALOT and missguiding the people.
Ike
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What proof? Go and make a thread about it if you have ANY material.
LoL, this is a clear digressional insult. History that was/is taught in Yugoslavia/Serbia is the same one that is taught throughout the Europe.
Sile
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The thracian component of serbs is meant to be the ancient people who where absorbed by migrating serbs once they ( serbs) reached the area.
I sometimes get the feeling that most people on these forums think of migration as some type of movements of people from one area to a VACANT area. Like some type of north-american red-indian thing...ok pack up tents , move to another hunting ground scenario...............this is 100% a myth if people think like this.
mihaitzateo
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Continuity between Illyrian which was Centum language and Albanian which is Satem language,that is just an absurdity.
The origin of both Slavic and Albanian language is in Scytho-Sarmatians language.
Slavic suffered more influences from Eastern Germanic.
As a proof to this are the words which are cognates between Iranian and Slavic and the words that are cognates between Albanian and Iranian .Romanians,which also have lots of Scytho-Sarmatian genetics,have cognates with Iranian language.
Sure,Thracian also had influence in Slavic and Albanian.
Anyone thought at the possibility that Albanians are also a Thraco-Scytho-Sarmatian people,but who moved to Balkans more earlier than their Slavic brother moved?
Do you think is possible to be such a resemblance between Montenegrins and Albanian highlander males,but some are speakers of Albanian and others are speakers of Serbo-Croatian,if they are not having not far common genetic origins?
Sile
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History Research 2013; 1(2): 5-24
15
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There are indications that the Albanians, who are living today on the territory of ancient
Illyria, came there from the territory of the Roman Province of Moesia Superior (in the present-day
Serbia) and especially from the valley of the River of Morava which is now the territory of the Eastern
Serbia – i.e., the ancient Illyrians cannot be the ancestors of the present-day Albanians.
The last point deserve more attention. As the territory of the Province of Moesia Superior was in the ancient
times the zone of Dacian ethnicity, the modern Albanians can be only of the Dacian ethnical origin, but not of the
Illyrian one. In this case, however, the Albanians are of the same ethnical origin like the modern Romanians. Such conclusions
are supported by the following facts: 1) Illyrian toponyms from the time of ancient Greeks and Romans are not in accordance with the Albanian phonetic laws;
2) most ancient Latin loanwords in the Albanian language have the phonetic form of the eastern Balkan type of the Latin
language that is showing that the Albanians are descendent from the ancient Dacians; 3) the most part of terminology
in the Albanian language, which is in connection to the expression of littoral terms, is borrowed from different
languages what suggests that the Albanians have not been originally a coastal people; 4) only a few ancient
Greek loanwords exist in modern Albanian language; if Albanians of Illyrian origin were really indigenous population in
Epirus region there should be much more loanwords from the ancient Greek language; 5) there is no any reference to
the Albanians on the present-day Albania’s territory in any medieval historical source before the 9th century 54 ; and 6)
around one hundred words from the Romanian language are similar only to the words from the Albanian language. It
suggests that the Albanians came to the present-day Albania either from the present-day Romania or from the territory
of Serbia that is close to Romania.
55
54
Similarly, the Hungarian historians and linguists are stressing that the Romanian theory of Romanian ethnical origin from the ancient Dacians is
unjust. The Hungarians are arguing that the Vlachs (or the Romanians as it is regarded in Romanian historiography) arrived in the 12th century when
the name of Vlach was mentioned for the first time in historical sources.
This opinion is primarily based on “the highly ideological Gesta Hungarorum
of the unknown cleric Anonymus three-hundred years after the events recorded [i. e., the Magyar settlement in the Pannonia and Transylvania] splendid victories over fictitious chiefs of the peoples ‘found here’ by the Magyars, actually projecting the twelfth-century status quo onto the ninth” [Kontler L., Millenium in Central Europe. A History of Hungary, Budapest: Atlantisz Publishing House, 1999, p. 43]. Contrary to their Hungarian colleagues, the Romanian historians and linguists developed the “Dacian-Vlach” theory of Romanian ethnical origin suggesting that the ancient Dacians were proto-Romanians. As a result, the modern Romanians are considered as original settlers in Transylvania and they have stronger historical rights to this territory than the Hungarians who came there just in the 10th century (for example, see: [Bolovan I. and others, A History of Romania, Iaşi, 1996, pp. 46–63]).
55
The Romanian philologist Vasila Parvan launched a hypothesis in 1910 that the proto-Albanians left their original territories in the Carpathians between the 3rd and the 6th century A.D. and moved to the Balkans through Transylvania.
This is the latest and most exact conclusion from 2013 on where the Albanians originated from .............Vasila Parvan would seem to be the closest to the truth.
Albanians, taking refuge in Roman lands from northern Dacian/Carpathian area at a time when the "barbarians" where moving against the Romans from the east.
15
•
There are indications that the Albanians, who are living today on the territory of ancient
Illyria, came there from the territory of the Roman Province of Moesia Superior (in the present-day
Serbia) and especially from the valley of the River of Morava which is now the territory of the Eastern
Serbia – i.e., the ancient Illyrians cannot be the ancestors of the present-day Albanians.
The last point deserve more attention. As the territory of the Province of Moesia Superior was in the ancient
times the zone of Dacian ethnicity, the modern Albanians can be only of the Dacian ethnical origin, but not of the
Illyrian one. In this case, however, the Albanians are of the same ethnical origin like the modern Romanians. Such conclusions
are supported by the following facts: 1) Illyrian toponyms from the time of ancient Greeks and Romans are not in accordance with the Albanian phonetic laws;
2) most ancient Latin loanwords in the Albanian language have the phonetic form of the eastern Balkan type of the Latin
language that is showing that the Albanians are descendent from the ancient Dacians; 3) the most part of terminology
in the Albanian language, which is in connection to the expression of littoral terms, is borrowed from different
languages what suggests that the Albanians have not been originally a coastal people; 4) only a few ancient
Greek loanwords exist in modern Albanian language; if Albanians of Illyrian origin were really indigenous population in
Epirus region there should be much more loanwords from the ancient Greek language; 5) there is no any reference to
the Albanians on the present-day Albania’s territory in any medieval historical source before the 9th century 54 ; and 6)
around one hundred words from the Romanian language are similar only to the words from the Albanian language. It
suggests that the Albanians came to the present-day Albania either from the present-day Romania or from the territory
of Serbia that is close to Romania.
55
54
Similarly, the Hungarian historians and linguists are stressing that the Romanian theory of Romanian ethnical origin from the ancient Dacians is
unjust. The Hungarians are arguing that the Vlachs (or the Romanians as it is regarded in Romanian historiography) arrived in the 12th century when
the name of Vlach was mentioned for the first time in historical sources.
This opinion is primarily based on “the highly ideological Gesta Hungarorum
of the unknown cleric Anonymus three-hundred years after the events recorded [i. e., the Magyar settlement in the Pannonia and Transylvania] splendid victories over fictitious chiefs of the peoples ‘found here’ by the Magyars, actually projecting the twelfth-century status quo onto the ninth” [Kontler L., Millenium in Central Europe. A History of Hungary, Budapest: Atlantisz Publishing House, 1999, p. 43]. Contrary to their Hungarian colleagues, the Romanian historians and linguists developed the “Dacian-Vlach” theory of Romanian ethnical origin suggesting that the ancient Dacians were proto-Romanians. As a result, the modern Romanians are considered as original settlers in Transylvania and they have stronger historical rights to this territory than the Hungarians who came there just in the 10th century (for example, see: [Bolovan I. and others, A History of Romania, Iaşi, 1996, pp. 46–63]).
55
The Romanian philologist Vasila Parvan launched a hypothesis in 1910 that the proto-Albanians left their original territories in the Carpathians between the 3rd and the 6th century A.D. and moved to the Balkans through Transylvania.
This is the latest and most exact conclusion from 2013 on where the Albanians originated from .............Vasila Parvan would seem to be the closest to the truth.
Albanians, taking refuge in Roman lands from northern Dacian/Carpathian area at a time when the "barbarians" where moving against the Romans from the east.
mihaitzateo
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Not only 1 Haplogroup.J2,R1A R1B-ht35 etc
For you information,at Albanian Highlanders,R1A can be even at 15%.
As a supposition,R1A is supposed to have been more present in Scythian people,while J2,more present in Sarmatian people.
As for the Dacian connection to Albanians or Romanians,that is not true in case of Albanians.
Dacians = a thracian tribe,called Wolf-People.
Serbians have strong folk customs,linked to wolf while in Romania,in Western part,there are also some folk traditions linked to wolf.
So here is the people with most Dacian ancestry,Serbians.Dacians were only rulling class in Romania,but after the defeat from Roman Empire,when Roman Empire moved over Danube,the troops,most Dacians went with Roman Empire troops,fearing other barbarian invasions.
After in Romania came the Gothic tribes,but again,the name of these tribes was given by the leaders of the tribes,the mass of the population I do not think it was of Germanic origins,but what they have picked on the road,including lots of people from today land of Ukraine and Russia.
Anyway,the proof that both Albanians and Slavic people are descending as language mostly from Scytho-Sarmatians it is not gave by paternal lines,but from common words.
A simple cognate,between Slavic and Iranian:
Zeme - Iranian god of Earth,zemljia (aproximative writting) - earth,in most Slavic language.
zæn, zen, jhæn (woman/wife) = Bosn. zena; Rus. zhena (wife) in Romanian,we have zana,meaning a female deity.
As for Albanian - Iranian link,take a look at Albanian folklore and North Iran folklore and look the people.
Words?
Che - What in Iranian,Ke - what in Albanian
ku? (where?) = ku? (where?). - in both Albanian and Iranian language.
striking cognate: iranian kiss booseh - albanian lips - buze - romanian lips - buze
And so on.
But most strong the link between Albanians and Iranians is as I said above,the folklore,the traditional instruments,found in both North Iran and Albania.
And North Iran is also a mountainous area.
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