Illyrian-Albanian Continuity

[King Bardhyl]

But Montenegrins are just slavized albanians. This is an fact, everybody know this.

Even a large part of serbs and other South Slavs ,are slavized albanians.

 

[mihaitzateo]

But Montenegrins are just slavized albanians. This is an fact, everybody know this.

Nonsense.
South Slavs,Romanians are having plenty of I2-dinaric (the stats are not very accurate here,I have seen Romanians from some NE county having up to 40% I2-dinaric).
However,Albanians do not have.
Montenegrins also have like 30% I2-dinaric.
Those statistics showing 26% only I2 on Romanians,are not true.The results are clearly higher.
Even with 26%,Romanians are clearly almost same people with Serbians/Montenegrins.
What are Romanians than,how come we do not speak Slavic,but Romance?

 

[King Bardhyl]

Nonsense.
South Slavs,Romanians are having plenty of I2-dinaric (the stats are not very accurate here,I have seen Romanians from some NE county having up to 40% I2-dinaric).
However,Albanians do not have.
Montenegrins also have like 30% I2-dinaric.
Those statistics showing 26% only I2 on Romanians,are not true.The results are clearly higher.
Even with 26%,Romanians are clearly almost same people with Serbians/Montenegrins.
What are Romanians than,how come we do not speak Slavic,but Romance?

I am not speaking about romanian. Just for curiosity,South Slavs are slavs?

 

[Ike]

But Montenegrins are just slavized albanians. This is an fact, everybody know this.

"Somewhere over the rainbow
Way up high,
There's a land that I heard of
Once in a lullaby..."

 

[mihaitzateo]

I am not speaking about romanian. Just for curiosity,South Slavs are slavs?

They are mix of old Italic population,with Slavs,as Romanians are.Romanians are speaking mostly Romance language,with lots of Slavic words,like 20% are Slavic words,from Romanian.
i2-din is clearly most closed to I2-a from Sardinia,not to Albanians .
Why is I2-din so low in Albania,can you explain please?
Your proto-Albanian theory is just non-sense,which is not supported by genetic testing,neither by folk customs.
This Ilyrian-Albanian continuity is just not supported by genetic testing.
Some Croatians scientists made genetic testing and they noticed that in Northern Croatia,R1A is higher and as you move towards South Croatia,I2-din raises,as frequency.
Just to add,Bosnians,Montenegrins,Serbians,Romanians,are mountains loving people,Sardianians,also mountains loving people,can you see the connection?
I found a cognate between Sardinian,South Slavic and Romanian,something about some kind of pork sausage,not found in other Slavic ,Balkanic and Italic languages.
Also,South Slavs are telling to the eyes oci,Romanians,ochi,Italians,occhi.
Russians are telling glaz,clearly cognate with English (guess with other Germanic languages also) gaze.
Poles,Czechs,also something closed to ochi.
You know what this means?
This means it was a strong link between Italic/Romance speakers and Slavic speakers,since as we know,Eastern Slavs have stronger Germanic influence.
Same about Cezar from Roman Empire and Tzar ,how Russians and other Slavs were calling their king.
Just another fun thing,old term for Italians in Romanian was Talieni,while Croatians are calling Italians Talianski.

 

[King Bardhyl]

The name “Albani” appeared in historical sources not before
the 9th century. The Byzantine historians used the name “Albani”
for the Slavic inhabitants living around the sea-port of
Durazzo (ancient Dyrrhachium) in the Northern Albania.
From the 11th century the name “Albani” (in Latin,
Arbanensis, or Albanenses, in Greek, Αλβανοι or
Αρβανιται ) was related to all Albanian tribes.
33
In the Middle Ages the “Albanoi” lived on the territory
between the cities of Skadar, Prizren, Ohrid and Valona.

33
The name for Albanians - “Арбанаси” is derived fro
m the Latin name for Albanians as the “Arbanenses”.

This is the best post forever, i want to know this guy, just fantastic.

"The Byzantine historians used the name “Albani”
for the Slavic inhabitants living around the sea-port of
Durazzo (ancient Dyrrhachium) in the Northern Albania".

So the slavs are not slavs but are albanian, and the albanian are not albanian.... oh my God . Pls Ike help me.

 

[King Bardhyl]

They are mix of old Italic population,with Slavs,as Romanians are.Romanians are speaking mostly Romance language,with lots of Slavic words,like 20% are Slavic words,from Romanian.
i2-din is clearly most closed to I2-a from Sardinia,not to Albanians .
Why is I2-din so low in Albania,can you explain please?
Your proto-Albanian theory is just non-sense,which is not supported by genetic testing,neither by folk customs.
This Ilyrian-Albanian continuity is just not supported by genetic testing.
Some Croatians scientists made genetic testing and they noticed that in Northern Croatia,R1A is higher and as you move towards South Croatia,I2-din raises,as frequency.
Just to add,Bosnians,Montenegrins,Serbians,Romanians,are mountains loving people,Sardianians,also mountains loving people,can you see the connection?
I found a cognate between Sardinian,South Slavic and Romanian,something about some kind of pork sausage,not found in other Slavic ,Balkanic and Italic languages.
Also,South Slavs are telling to the eyes oci,Romanians,ochi,Italians,occhi.
Russians are telling glaz,clearly cognate with English (guess with other Germanic languages also) gaze.
Poles,Czechs,also something closed to ochi.
You know what this means?
This means it was a strong link between Italic/Romance speakers and Slavic speakers,since as we know,Eastern Slavs have stronger Germanic influence.
Same about Cezar from Roman Empire and Tzar ,how Russians and other Slavs were calling their king.
Just another fun thing,old term for Italians in Romanian was Talieni,while Croatians are calling Italians Talianski.

My friend i belive that Romanians peoples are arrived from Via Latea.
Now i want to speak with IKE tom understand this slavic problem.
Thank You

 

[mihaitzateo]

As absurd as it might sound,E-V13 map could coincide to the spread of Goths in Europe.
And Albanians,might have been an warrior tribe of IE people,allied to Goths,originating from Balkans.
There were lots of warrior tribes in Balkans,I remember that Albanians were used by Romanian boyars as soldiers,being called arnautzi in Romanian.
Now,I doubt Ilyrians were warrior people.

 

[King Bardhyl]

Ikeeeee just a curiosity, what` your opinion South Slavs are slavs ore Illyrian? I am not speaking about those noble neighbors, deschendant of Veliki Aleksandrovski son of Filipovic, but the rest of ex- Yugoslavia.

 

[King Bardhyl]

As absurd as it might sound,E-V13 map could coincide to the spread of Goths in Europe.
And Albanians,might have been an warrior tribe of IE people,allied to Goths,originating from Balkans.
There were lots of warrior tribes in Balkans,I remember that Albanians were used by Romanian boyars as soldiers,being called arnautzi in Romanian.
Now,I doubt Ilyrians were warrior people.

Yes a lot of albanian people in Romania , Gjika family, Vasile Lupu etc.

 

[King Bardhyl]

Ikeeeee just a curiosity, what` your opinion South Slavs are slavs ore Illyrian? I am not speaking about those noble neighbors, deschendant of Veliki Aleksandrovski son of Filipovic, but the rest of ex- Yugoslavia.

No Ike , ok tomorow. I also want to know that in this text with name Arbanasi (Albanians) the Anonymous author understands the Serbs or Albanians?

[h=3]1000 - 1018
Anonymous:
Fragment on the Origins of Nations[/h]


What is possibly the earliest written reference to the Albanians is that to be found in an old Bulgarian text compiled around the beginning of the eleventh century.It divides the world into seventy-two languages and three religious categories: Orthodox, half-believers (i.e. non-Orthodox Christians) and non-believers.

It can be seen that there are various languages on earth. Of them, there are five Orthodox languages: Bulgarian, Greek, Syrian, Iberian (Georgian) and Russian. Three of these have Orthodox alphabets: Greek, Bulgarian and Iberian. There are twelve languages of half-believers: Alamanians, Franks, Magyars (Hungarians), Indians, Jacobites, Armenians, Saxons, Lechs (Poles), Arbanasi (Albanians), Croatians, Hizi, Germans.

[Extract from: Radoslav Grujic: Legenda iz vremena Cara Samuila o poreklu naroda. in: Glasnik skopskog naucnog drustva, Skopje, 13 (1934), p. 198 200. Translated from the Old Church Slavonic by Robert Elsie. First published in R. Elsie: Early Albania, a Reader of Historical Texts, 11th - 17th Centuries, Wiesbaden 2003, p. 3.]

​

 

[King Bardhyl]

My friend i belive that Romanians peoples are arrived from Via Latea.
Now i want to speak with IKE tom understand this slavic problem.
Thank You

For your curiosity :
Some Italian researchers (Alberto Areddu Salvatore (Bovore) Mele ) etc, connect Albanian language with Paleosardiniane specially with ancient Sardinia, with isolated areas of Ogliastra and Barbagia.
If you understand italian read this:
http://www.vatrarberesh.it/argomenti-trattati/la-lingua/arvareshu-il-protosardo-illirico.html
http://www.gioni.net/nuova_pagina_2.htm





I am not able to say more.

 

[King Bardhyl]

[h=3]Ipotesi illirica[/h] Recentemente (2007) lo studioso Alberto Areddu sviluppando l'idea che il "popolo del mare" dei Shardana fosse di origine illirica, sulla base di diversi elementi lessicali- concordemente riconosciuti come appartenenti al sostrato- ha sostenuto che si debba parlare per la Sardegna antica e in particolare per le zone più conservative dell'isola: l'Ogliastra e la Barbagia, di un ramo particolare dell'indoeuropeo, che manifesta appunto forti corrispondenze formali e semantiche con le poche testimonianze dell'illirico (o del trace) e soprattutto con la loro odierna continuazione linguistica, l'albanese; le concordanze sono poi estese a diversi toponimi e microtoponimi di area centrale; ad esempio lo studioso fornisce le seguenti comparazioni^[13]:

• sardo:eni ‘albero del tasso’= albanese enjë ‘albero del tasso’
• sardo:alase ‘agrifoglio, pungitopo, gramigna’ (in sardo: laruspinosu ’alloro spinoso’) =albanese halë ‘spina’ halëz ‘spina’
• sardo: lothiu ‘fangoso’, topp: Lotzorai, Lothorgo, Loceri, Lotzeri = albanese lloç ‘fanghiglia’
• sardo: dròb(b)alu ‘intestino dei suini’ = albanese drobolì ‘intestino’
• sardo: urtzula ‘clematide’, top. Urtzulei = albanese hurdh ‘edera’

e recentemente: Òrol- presente in un buon numero di microtoponimi montani (e presente anche nella odierna ornitonimia) confrontato con trace Òrolos 'aquila'
Lo studioso Salvatore (Bovore) Mele ha in procinto di pubblicazione una grammatica sardiana illirica.

 

[Ike]

This is the best post forever, i want to know this guy, just fantastic.

"The Byzantine historians used the name “Albani”
for the Slavic inhabitants living around the sea-port of
Durazzo (ancient Dyrrhachium) in the Northern Albania".

So the slavs are not slavs but are albanian, and the albanian are not albanian.... oh my God . Pls Ike help me.

That doesn't have to mean anything, except that anyone who lived in Albania disregarding ethnicity was called Albanian (by some authors). Just like we could some people Pannonians, although those may have been Huns, Slavs, Germans, Kelts, etc, in various time points.

Ikeeeee just a curiosity, what` your opinion South Slavs are slavs ore Illyrian? I am not speaking about those noble neighbors, deschendant of Veliki Aleksandrovski son of Filipovic, but the rest of ex- Yugoslavia.

There are some indications that current Slavic population of Balkan has the same anthropological (skeletal) characteristics as the ancient one, but that has to be confirmed with other research. Until then I'm supporting the official version that Slavs settled in Balkans in 6th century.

No Ike , ok tomorow. I also want to know that in this text with name Arbanasi (Albanians) the Anonymous author understands the Serbs or Albanians?

1000 - 1018
Anonymous:
Fragment on the Origins of Nations




What is possibly the earliest written reference to the Albanians is that to be found in an old Bulgarian text compiled around the beginning of the eleventh century.It divides the world into seventy-two languages and three religious categories: Orthodox, half-believers (i.e. non-Orthodox Christians) and non-believers.

It can be seen that there are various languages on earth. Of them, there are five Orthodox languages: Bulgarian, Greek, Syrian, Iberian (Georgian) and Russian. Three of these have Orthodox alphabets: Greek, Bulgarian and Iberian. There are twelve languages of half-believers: Alamanians, Franks, Magyars (Hungarians), Indians, Jacobites, Armenians, Saxons, Lechs (Poles), Arbanasi (Albanians), Croatians, Hizi, Germans.

[Extract from: Radoslav Grujic: Legenda iz vremena Cara Samuila o poreklu naroda. in: Glasnik skopskog naucnog drustva, Skopje, 13 (1934), p. 198 200. Translated from the Old Church Slavonic by Robert Elsie. First published in R. Elsie: Early Albania, a Reader of Historical Texts, 11th - 17th Centuries, Wiesbaden 2003, p. 3.]

​

I'm not sure. I don't see Serbian or Latin on that list. In what groups had author put them?

 

[King Bardhyl]

That doesn't have to mean anything, except that anyone who lived in Albania disregarding ethnicity was called Albanian (by some authors). Just like we could some people Pannonians, although those may have been Huns, Slavs, Germans, Kelts, etc, in various time points.


There are some indications that current Slavic population of Balkan has the same anthropological (skeletal) characteristics as the ancient one, but that has to be confirmed with other research. Until then I'm supporting the official version that Slavs settled in Balkans in 6th century.




I'm not sure. I don't see Serbian or Latin on that list. In what groups had author put them?

1-That doesn't have to mean anything, except that anyone who lived in Albania disregarding ethnicity was called Albanian (by some authors). Just like we could some people Pannonians, although those may have been Huns, Slavs, Germans, Kelts, etc, in various time points.

Just like this people?

"..John of Amida also known as John of Ephesus records that in 581

"…an accursed people, called Slavonians, overran the whole of
Greece……and captured the cities, and took numerous forts, and
devastated and burnt, and reduced the people to slavery, and
made themselves masters of the whole country, and settled in
it by main force, and dwelt in it as though it had been their
own. ... And even to this day [584 AD], they still encamp and dwell
there, and live in peace in the Roman territories, free from anxiety
and fear, and lead captive and slay and burn..."

Another source, the so-called Chronicle of Monembasia, states that
in the year 587—8 the Turkic Avars (with whom the Slavs were
usually allied)

"…..captured all of Thessaly and all of Greece, Old Epirus, Attica
and Euboea. Indeed, they attacked the Peloponnese and took it by war;
and after expelling and destroying the native Hellenic peoples, they
dwelt there. Those who were able to escape their murderous hands were
scattered here and there. Thus, the citizens of Patras moved to the
district of Reggio in Calabria, the Argives to the island called Orobe,
the Corinthians to the island of Aegina.... Only the eastern part of
the Peloponnese, from Corinth to Cape Maleas, was untouched by the
Slavonians because of the rough and inaccessible nature of the
country... "

[Cyril Mango, BYZANTIUM: THE EMPIRE OF NEW ROME]

From where arrived this accursed people can you tell me?


2-There are some indications that current Slavic population of Balkan has the same anthropological (skeletal) characteristics as the ancient one, but that has to be confirmed with other research. Until then I'm supporting the official version that Slavs settled in Balkans in 6th century.

You are speaking about this:
The Montenegrins, who are the tallest people in Europe, live on a barren limestone mountain upland, where they, for centuries, succeeded in maintaining their Christianity and their freedom while surrounded by the Turks. They, like the northern Albanians, preserve their old exog- amous clan organization, and their clan loyalties and feuds. They are linguistically Serbs, but there can be no question that they are to a large extent Slavicized Albanians; the cultural continuity between the two peoples is striking, the only real differences being those of language and re- ligion. [h=1]Stevens Coon Carleton The Races Of Europe page 591 [/h]
3-I'm not sure. I don't see Serbian or Latin on that list. In what groups had author put them?
Just don`t mentined them , probably had not yet reached Balcan.

 

[King Bardhyl]

1332
Anonymous:
Initiative for Making the Passage

The 'Directorium ad passagium faciendum', which can be translated as 'Initiative for making the passage', is a mediaeval Latin manuscript (also available in an early French translation) attributed alternatively to a monk called Burcard (Brocardus Monacus / Frère Brochard) or to one William Adam (Guillelmus Adam / Guillaume Adam) (1). The author was at any rate a Dominican priest and Latin prelate in the Byzantine Empire and Armenia, whose aim was to persuade the Catholic armies under Philip VI of Valois (r. 1328-1350) to embark upon a holy crusade and conquer Serbian-occupied Albania, thus restoring the Catholic Church to its former power there and taking revenge upon the Orthodox Greeks for having destroyed the Latin Empire of Constantinople. In the text, the author makes reference to the Albanians as the majority population in Albania. It is also in the 'Directorium' that a much-quoted phrase about the existence of books in Albania occurs: 'licet Albanenses aliam omnino linguam a latina habeant et diversam, tamen litteram latinam habent in usu et in omnibus suis libris' (The Albanians indeed have a language quite different from Latin, however they use Latin letters in all their books).

On the Kingdom of Rascia and how it could easily be conquered​

I would like to come back to the Kingdom of Rascia to show how it could be conquered. Indeed, the desire to invade is all that is needed for the country to be taken. In order to make this clear, I would like to present a number of brief suggestions for an invasion and a number of easily fulfilled conditions for a conquest.
The said kingdom has few if any fortifications at all. All that exists are farmhouses and cottages devoid of moats and outer walls. The buildings and palaces, both of the king and of the nobles, are made of straw and wood. I have never seen a palace or home there made of stone or of brick except in the coastal towns of the Latins. The said kingdom is rich in grain, wine, oil and meat. It is a pleasant place with water from springs and rivers flowing through it, a delightful land with woods, meadows, mountains, plains and valleys full of various species of wild beasts. In short, everything that grows there is of choice quality, in particular in areas along the coast. In the said kingdom, there are indeed five gold mines and an equal number of silver mines in which expert miners toil without interruption. There are also mixed deposits of silver and gold, which have recently been discovered at various and sundry sites, and huge dense forests. Whoever owns this kingdom will have a veritable jewel in his possession, select and precious for all times.
One factor, among others, which makes this kingdom easy to conquer, is that it is inhabited by two peoples, i.e. the Albanians and the Latins who, in their beliefs, their rites and their obedience, both abide by the Roman Catholic Church. Accordingly, they have archbishops, bishops and abbots, as well as religious and secular clerics of lower rank and status. The Latins have six towns with bishops: firstly Antibarum (Bar), the seat of the archbishop, then Chatarensis (Kotor), Dulcedinensis (Ulcinj), Suacinensis (Shas) (2), Scutarensis (Shkodra) and Drivascensis (Drisht) (3), which are inhabited by the Latins alone. Outside the town walls, the Albanians make up the population throughout the diocese. There are four Albanian towns: Polatum Maius (Greater Pult) (4), Polatum Minus (Lesser Pult), Sabatensis (Sapa) (5) and Albanensis (Albanopolis) (6) which, together with the towns of the Latins, are all legally subject to the Archbishop of Bar and his church as their metropolitan. The Albanians indeed have a language quite different from Latin. However they use Latin letters in all their books (7). The sway of the Latins is thus confined to the limits of their towns. Outside the towns, they do possess vineyards and fields, but there are no fortifications or villages actually inhabited by the Latins. The Albanians for their part, the larger of the two peoples, could assemble over fifteen thousand horsemen for warfare according to the custom and manner of the country, who would be courageous and industrious warriors. Since the said Latins and Albanians suffer under the unbearable yoke and extremely dire bondage of their odious Slav leaders whom they detest - the people being tormented, the clergy humiliated and oppressed, the bishops and abbots often kept in chains, the nobles disinherited and held hostage, episcopal and other churches disbanded and deprived of their rights, and the monasteries in decay and ruin - they would all to a man believe that they were consecrating their hands in the blood of the aforementioned Slavs if a French prince were to appear before them whom they could make leader of their war against the said evil Slavs, the enemies of our true faith. With the help of the aforementioned Albanians and Latins, one thousand French knights and five or six thousand foot soldiers could without a doubt easily conquer the whole length and breadth of this kingdom.
Source: [Extract from: Recueil des historiens des croisades. Documents arméniens. Tome second. Documents latins et français relatifs à l'Arménie, Paris 1906, p. 478 485.]

The author speaks here for a territory under the rule of the King of Serbia. In this area cities are inhabited by Latins and the entire territory is inhabited by Albanians. About the city I can bring doccuments that prove that in the coastal cities had a certain amount Albanian inhabitants. All this inhabitants “suffer under the unbearable yoke and extremely dire bondage of their odious Slav leaders”.
Given your geographical knowledge can you tell me the said territory in which is of modern states is located?

 

[Sile]

This is the best post forever, i want to know this guy, just fantastic.

"The Byzantine historians used the name “Albani”
for the Slavic inhabitants living around the sea-port of
Durazzo (ancient Dyrrhachium) in the Northern Albania".

So the slavs are not slavs but are albanian, and the albanian are not albanian.... oh my God . Pls Ike help me.

??????????????????????

the post states that slavs inhabited Durazzo and the byzantines called them ( slavs) the Albani to distinguish them from other people

In then says from the 11th century , the term albani referred to albanians............

clearly an indication that slavs migrated into northern Albania before the albanians did

 

[King Bardhyl]

??????????????????????

the post states that slavs inhabited Durazzo and the byzantines called them ( slavs) the Albani to distinguish them from other people

In then says from the 11th century , the term albani referred to albanians............

clearly an indication that slavs migrated into northern Albania before the albanians did

Let's make an agreement, using references. Show me an document about slavic inhabitants of Durazzo or about this or about this slavic migration from Durazzo to North Albania.
I will show you prove that never, i repeat never in history Serbs arrived to Durazzo. So your post is ridiculous .

 

[Ike]

Just like this people?

Yes, that could be example of uncertain nomenclature.

From where arrived this accursed people can you tell me?

Since that's the story of 6th century Slavic invasion, probably from the North.

You are speaking about this:
The Montenegrins, who are the tallest people in Europe, live on a barren limestone mountain upland, where they, for centuries, succeeded in maintaining their Christianity and their freedom while surrounded by the Turks. They, like the northern Albanians, preserve their old exog- amous clan organization, and their clan loyalties and feuds. They are linguistically Serbs, but there can be no question that they are to a large extent Slavicized Albanians; the cultural continuity between the two peoples is striking, the only real differences being those of language and re- ligion. Stevens Coon Carleton The Races Of Europe page 591

Not about that. Northern Albanians could probably be related to Balkan Slavic population through some ancient Balkan ethnicity that was both Slavicized and Albanized. That doesn't mean that population was either Slavic or Albanian from the beginning. It is most probable that population was first Slazvicized in 6th century and then later Albanized in 16th century.

I was talking about some other research, but it's of no importance today because we have DNA analysis which can prove for certainty if the hypothesis is right or wrong, so it's stupid to waste time on some 19th century methods.

Just don`t mentined them , probably had not yet reached Balcan.

Not good, because:
1. That document was dated to 10th century. Bulgarian author must have known about Latins and Serbs.
2. He was writing about Indian language, so it's not about Balkan.

 

[Ike]

the post states that slavs inhabited Durazzo and the byzantines called them ( slavs) the Albani to distinguish them from other people

The term could indeed be related to blond population of Slavic (or maybe Norman - who came later) origin that entered that area in medieval times.