Illyrian and Albanian - a linguistic approach

Nicholas Hammond was an philhellene, of course not under the influence of Enver Hoxha.
https://books.google.al/books?id=O9...fsI&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&redir_esc=y
Migrations and Invasions in Greece and Adjacent Areas


Albanian Ethnogenesis

The Albanian is by habit and instinct a mountaineer, and the heart of Albania has always beaten most strongly in the tangle of very high mountains in the north of the country. That area has been impenetrable to many foreign armies, and its inhabitants have governed themselves and observed their own laws without paying much regard to the rulers of the lowlands; whether Greek, Roman, Turkish or Italian. The laws were traditional, and they were not written down until recently. The Albanians themselves say that their laws were codified, if one may use that word of oral composition, in the fifteenth century by Lek Dukagjini, and that he was an older contemporary and friend of George Skanderbeg (1403-67), the leader of the heroic resistance against the all-conquering Turks. The achievement of Lek Dukagjmi was not to invent laws but to organise the traditional ones of the numerous tribes of the northern part of the country - his own home into a consistent system of law, and to persuade the tribes to adopt it. Since that time the laws have been handed down separately in tribes and in families by oral tradition; and the fact that they still belong recognisably to a codified system is a testimony to the accuracy and strength of an oral transmission, which continued until the mid-twentieth century, when ideological revolutions replaced the code of Lek Dukagjini with that of Enver Hoxha and his colleagues.
In the 1930s the Albanians of the modern state of Albania were only a portion of those who spoke Albanian. Quite apart from the emigrants in Egypt, America and elsewhere, there were large groups of Albanian-speakers in Greece, Italy and Yugoslavia. The most interesting are those who were indigenous to the country but were included in south-western Yugoslavia by the drawing of the frontier in 1912-13.
They have remained completely Albanian in the pre-war sense of the word, retaining their traditional customs and living close to the subsistence level in the hilly country, for instance to the north of Ochrid, where I talked with the peasants of Gorice.
What united this plethora of often warring families and often warring tribes as Albanians was a love of their land, a sense of family unity vis-a-vis Serbs, Bulgars, Greeks and Italians, and a unique language, which belongs, like Greek and Latin, to the Indo-European group of languages but is at a primitive stage of development. This language may be the direct descendant of the Illyrian language, which was spoken by the inhabitants of the north-western part of the Balkans from early in the second millennium B.C. down to the collapse of the Roman Empire If so, it provides an analogy to the survival of Greek today as the direct descendant of Mycenaean Greek. But the purely linguistic evidence is scanty, because the Illyrians were illiterate, and there are not enough toponyms and personal names to convince the specialists in the linguistic field. But on a broader consideration, the inaccessibility of the mountains of northern Albania, the extreme conservatism of Albanian life and customs until recently, and the arrested development of the Albanian language are strongly in favour of the view that the Shqiptars, as they call themselves (7), are the linear descendants of the tribes of the northwest Balkans to which the Greeks and the Romans gave the general name 'Illyrians'.

In the fifth and sixth centuries A.D. 'lllyricum', the Roman province of the northwest Balkans which began in the south with Scodra, was a very important part of the Empire, because it provided good soldiers and leading emperors such as Diocletian and Justinian.
For almost half a millennium we know nothing of Epirus Nova except that it suffered from terrible earthquakes and was overrun repeatedly by barbarian invaders who came from north of the Danube. In 1081 even more formidable invaders landed on its coast, the Normans (or the Franks, as the Greeks called them) of the First Crusade, and they conquered and occupied Epirus Nova, while the Byzantine emperor, Alexius, withdrew to concentrate his forces at Ochrid. It was in these circumstances that a region ‘Albania' was first mentioned in literature, namely in the Norman French of the great epic, the Chanson de Roland, composed c. 1082-84. The place-names of Epirus Nova were reproduced in a French form or in a Biblical form: the river Charzanes (modern Arzen) appeared as Cheriant (line 3208) ; the river Mati (the modern name) as Val ('river' in the Chanson) Marchis, Mari or Morois; the ancient Oricus as Jericho; the modern Kanina as Chanmeis and so on. One line of the Chanson, 3255, gives what were probably the limits of Epirus Nova on the coast for the Crusaders as ‘Baile' (Cape Pale north of Dyrrachium) and 'Glos’ (Cape Glossa). Now another manuscript (CV7) gives not these names but 'd'Albanie et de Kent’ in order to convey the same meaning, thus it follows that 'Albanie' was inland of Cape Pale, for 'Kent' (Kanina) was inland of Cape Glossa (9). Again at line 3230 there is mention of Cape Pale, which appears in the best manuscript as 'Baile' and in other manuscripts as Paligea, Baligera, Balie, Balide, Baldise and in V7, as Albeigne. H. Gregoire and R. de Keyser, who were first to recognise that names of places in Epirus Nova were mentioned in the Chanson,(10) regarded all these readings as corruptions of 'Baile’ and in particular they said "V7 a corrompu Baile en Albeigne". Yet 'Albeigne' is so unlike the other versions and so remote from 'Baile' that it is most probably not a corruption at all but, precisely as in line 3255, a variant. If it is a variant of Baile (Cape Pale), ‘Albeigne' like "Albanie' is to be sought inland of Cape Pale.

The correct forms in Greek of the place-names in Epirus Nova were given some decades later by the Byzantine writers and among them by Anna Comnena, the daughter of the Emperor Alexius who had fought against the Crusaders. Thus, corresponding to 'Albanie' and 'Albeigne' was the form 'Arbanon' in Anna Comnena's history, which she completed in 1148. This 'Arbanon' was a mountain, since she wrote of passes and paths through it (13.5), and it lay somewhere between Dyrrachium and 'Deure' (Dibra) in the valley of the Black Drin. The most likely candidate is Mt Dajti, east of Cape Pale (now Rodoni). A plural form in the neuter gender was used by Anna Comnena at 4.8, where "Korniskortes set out from Arbana” (11). As in the case of the Acroceraunia' (sc. 'ore'), a mountainous area was being named ‘Arbana', i.e. Mt Dajti and Mali me Grope most probable.

From 1166 onwards the suffragan bishops of Dyrrachium included ''episcopi Albanenses, Arbanenses, Arbonenses" and even "Arbunenses"(12). As bishops were named not after a race but by a place, these bishops were in charge of a district 'Arbana', or something of the sort. The district was comparatively small, because we hear of suffragan bishops of 'Hunavia' and ‘Tzernikos' (Cermenike), which were situated, like Arbana, on the north side of the Via Egnatia (13). The seat of the diocese may have been a town called something like 'Arbanos’. We have two mentions of such a town: 'Albanopolis' or in a variant reading 'Albanos polis' in Ptolemy 3.12.20, writing in the second century A.D. and 'Albanos' in the company of the towns Achris (Ochrid), Prilapos (Prilep), and Dyrrachium in G. Acropolites 14, writing in the thirteenth century (14). The latter author mentioned also a district 'Albanon' as "a little beyond Dyrrachium," and as containing "difficult terrain" [14] and a fort known as 'Kroai' (49), now Kruje, on the western face of Mt Dajti.

The gap between Ptolemy and Acropolites is bridged by the mention of "Ducagini d'Arbania" in a seventh-century document at Ragusa (Dubrovnik). These Ducagini instigated a revolt against Byzantine rule in Bosnia and in particular at Ragusa, but they had to submit after the second unsuccessful intervention at Ragusa, to which they were said to have come "de terra ferma," i.e overland (15). The name 'Ducagini' is evidently derived from the Latin 'dux' and the common Albanian name 'Ghin'; indeed an Albanian chieftain in 1281 was referred to as "dux Ginius Tanuschus"(16). Moreover, the leading family of northern Albania from the thirteenth century to the Turkish invasion in the fifteenth century was called 'Dukagjin' (Lek Dukagjini the codifier was one of them), and their properties lay between Lesh (Lissus) and the bend of the Drin. It is here then that we should put the ‘Arbania' of the seventh century. The conclusion that 'Albanians' lived there continuously from the second century to the thirteenth century becomes, I think, unavoidable (17).

'Albanoi' as a people appeared first in Ptolemy 3.12.20. In his description of the Roman world, the southernmost part of the province Illyricum included Scodra, Lissus and Mt Scardus (Sar Planina); and, adjoining it the northernmost part of 'Macedonia' included the Taulantii (in the region of Tirana) and the Albani, in whose territory Ptolemy recorded one city only, Albanopolis or Albanos polis. Thus the Albani were a tribe in what we now call Central Albania, and they were an Illyrian-speaking tribe, like the more famous Taulantii, in the second century A.D. Men of this tribe appeared next in 1040, alongside some Epirotes (their neighbours on land) and some Italiotes (their neighbours across the sea), in the army of a rebellious general, George Maniakis. Two chieftains of this tribe, Demetrios and Ghin, pursued an independent policy in the early years of the thirteenth century.

 
so you originate from ancient Epirus being a tosk .........good for you

You are starting to learn something.
 
Nicholas Hammond was an philhellene, of course not under the influence of Enver Hoxha.
https://books.google.al/books?id=O9...fsI&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&redir_esc=y
Migrations and Invasions in Greece and Adjacent Areas


Albanian Ethnogenesis

The Albanian is by habit and instinct a mountaineer, and the heart of Albania has always beaten most strongly in the tangle of very high mountains in the north of the country. That area has been impenetrable to many foreign armies, and its inhabitants have governed themselves and observed their own laws without paying much regard to the rulers of the lowlands; whether Greek, Roman, Turkish or Italian. The laws were traditional, and they were not written down until recently. The Albanians themselves say that their laws were codified, if one may use that word of oral composition, in the fifteenth century by Lek Dukagjini, and that he was an older contemporary and friend of George Skanderbeg (1403-67), the leader of the heroic resistance against the all-conquering Turks. The achievement of Lek Dukagjmi was not to invent laws but to organise the traditional ones of the numerous tribes of the northern part of the country - his own home into a consistent system of law, and to persuade the tribes to adopt it. Since that time the laws have been handed down separately in tribes and in families by oral tradition; and the fact that they still belong recognisably to a codified system is a testimony to the accuracy and strength of an oral transmission, which continued until the mid-twentieth century, when ideological revolutions replaced the code of Lek Dukagjini with that of Enver Hoxha and his colleagues.
In the 1930s the Albanians of the modern state of Albania were only a portion of those who spoke Albanian. Quite apart from the emigrants in Egypt, America and elsewhere, there were large groups of Albanian-speakers in Greece, Italy and Yugoslavia. The most interesting are those who were indigenous to the country but were included in south-western Yugoslavia by the drawing of the frontier in 1912-13.
They have remained completely Albanian in the pre-war sense of the word, retaining their traditional customs and living close to the subsistence level in the hilly country, for instance to the north of Ochrid, where I talked with the peasants of Gorice.
What united this plethora of often warring families and often warring tribes as Albanians was a love of their land, a sense of family unity vis-a-vis Serbs, Bulgars, Greeks and Italians, and a unique language, which belongs, like Greek and Latin, to the Indo-European group of languages but is at a primitive stage of development. This language may be the direct descendant of the Illyrian language, which was spoken by the inhabitants of the north-western part of the Balkans from early in the second millennium B.C. down to the collapse of the Roman Empire If so, it provides an analogy to the survival of Greek today as the direct descendant of Mycenaean Greek. But the purely linguistic evidence is scanty, because the Illyrians were illiterate, and there are not enough toponyms and personal names to convince the specialists in the linguistic field. But on a broader consideration, the inaccessibility of the mountains of northern Albania, the extreme conservatism of Albanian life and customs until recently, and the arrested development of the Albanian language are strongly in favour of the view that the Shqiptars, as they call themselves (7), are the linear descendants of the tribes of the northwest Balkans to which the Greeks and the Romans gave the general name 'Illyrians'.

In the fifth and sixth centuries A.D. 'lllyricum', the Roman province of the northwest Balkans which began in the south with Scodra, was a very important part of the Empire, because it provided good soldiers and leading emperors such as Diocletian and Justinian.
For almost half a millennium we know nothing of Epirus Nova except that it suffered from terrible earthquakes and was overrun repeatedly by barbarian invaders who came from north of the Danube. In 1081 even more formidable invaders landed on its coast, the Normans (or the Franks, as the Greeks called them) of the First Crusade, and they conquered and occupied Epirus Nova, while the Byzantine emperor, Alexius, withdrew to concentrate his forces at Ochrid. It was in these circumstances that a region ‘Albania' was first mentioned in literature, namely in the Norman French of the great epic, the Chanson de Roland, composed c. 1082-84. The place-names of Epirus Nova were reproduced in a French form or in a Biblical form: the river Charzanes (modern Arzen) appeared as Cheriant (line 3208) ; the river Mati (the modern name) as Val ('river' in the Chanson) Marchis, Mari or Morois; the ancient Oricus as Jericho; the modern Kanina as Chanmeis and so on. One line of the Chanson, 3255, gives what were probably the limits of Epirus Nova on the coast for the Crusaders as ‘Baile' (Cape Pale north of Dyrrachium) and 'Glos’ (Cape Glossa). Now another manuscript (CV7) gives not these names but 'd'Albanie et de Kent’ in order to convey the same meaning, thus it follows that 'Albanie' was inland of Cape Pale, for 'Kent' (Kanina) was inland of Cape Glossa (9). Again at line 3230 there is mention of Cape Pale, which appears in the best manuscript as 'Baile' and in other manuscripts as Paligea, Baligera, Balie, Balide, Baldise and in V7, as Albeigne. H. Gregoire and R. de Keyser, who were first to recognise that names of places in Epirus Nova were mentioned in the Chanson,(10) regarded all these readings as corruptions of 'Baile’ and in particular they said "V7 a corrompu Baile en Albeigne". Yet 'Albeigne' is so unlike the other versions and so remote from 'Baile' that it is most probably not a corruption at all but, precisely as in line 3255, a variant. If it is a variant of Baile (Cape Pale), ‘Albeigne' like "Albanie' is to be sought inland of Cape Pale.

The correct forms in Greek of the place-names in Epirus Nova were given some decades later by the Byzantine writers and among them by Anna Comnena, the daughter of the Emperor Alexius who had fought against the Crusaders. Thus, corresponding to 'Albanie' and 'Albeigne' was the form 'Arbanon' in Anna Comnena's history, which she completed in 1148. This 'Arbanon' was a mountain, since she wrote of passes and paths through it (13.5), and it lay somewhere between Dyrrachium and 'Deure' (Dibra) in the valley of the Black Drin. The most likely candidate is Mt Dajti, east of Cape Pale (now Rodoni). A plural form in the neuter gender was used by Anna Comnena at 4.8, where "Korniskortes set out from Arbana” (11). As in the case of the Acroceraunia' (sc. 'ore'), a mountainous area was being named ‘Arbana', i.e. Mt Dajti and Mali me Grope most probable.

From 1166 onwards the suffragan bishops of Dyrrachium included ''episcopi Albanenses, Arbanenses, Arbonenses" and even "Arbunenses"(12). As bishops were named not after a race but by a place, these bishops were in charge of a district 'Arbana', or something of the sort. The district was comparatively small, because we hear of suffragan bishops of 'Hunavia' and ‘Tzernikos' (Cermenike), which were situated, like Arbana, on the north side of the Via Egnatia (13). The seat of the diocese may have been a town called something like 'Arbanos’. We have two mentions of such a town: 'Albanopolis' or in a variant reading 'Albanos polis' in Ptolemy 3.12.20, writing in the second century A.D. and 'Albanos' in the company of the towns Achris (Ochrid), Prilapos (Prilep), and Dyrrachium in G. Acropolites 14, writing in the thirteenth century (14). The latter author mentioned also a district 'Albanon' as "a little beyond Dyrrachium," and as containing "difficult terrain" [14] and a fort known as 'Kroai' (49), now Kruje, on the western face of Mt Dajti.

The gap between Ptolemy and Acropolites is bridged by the mention of "Ducagini d'Arbania" in a seventh-century document at Ragusa (Dubrovnik). These Ducagini instigated a revolt against Byzantine rule in Bosnia and in particular at Ragusa, but they had to submit after the second unsuccessful intervention at Ragusa, to which they were said to have come "de terra ferma," i.e overland (15). The name 'Ducagini' is evidently derived from the Latin 'dux' and the common Albanian name 'Ghin'; indeed an Albanian chieftain in 1281 was referred to as "dux Ginius Tanuschus"(16). Moreover, the leading family of northern Albania from the thirteenth century to the Turkish invasion in the fifteenth century was called 'Dukagjin' (Lek Dukagjini the codifier was one of them), and their properties lay between Lesh (Lissus) and the bend of the Drin. It is here then that we should put the ‘Arbania' of the seventh century. The conclusion that 'Albanians' lived there continuously from the second century to the thirteenth century becomes, I think, unavoidable (17).

'Albanoi' as a people appeared first in Ptolemy 3.12.20. In his description of the Roman world, the southernmost part of the province Illyricum included Scodra, Lissus and Mt Scardus (Sar Planina); and, adjoining it the northernmost part of 'Macedonia' included the Taulantii (in the region of Tirana) and the Albani, in whose territory Ptolemy recorded one city only, Albanopolis or Albanos polis. Thus the Albani were a tribe in what we now call Central Albania, and they were an Illyrian-speaking tribe, like the more famous Taulantii, in the second century A.D. Men of this tribe appeared next in 1040, alongside some Epirotes (their neighbours on land) and some Italiotes (their neighbours across the sea), in the army of a rebellious general, George Maniakis. Two chieftains of this tribe, Demetrios and Ghin, pursued an independent policy in the early years of the thirteenth century.


You can see, your sources are before 1990. I give sources after 2000. Things changed, and for example, among many authors, Wilkes has credits for it. Wilkes (1992) wrote: "They (Illyrians) spoke a language of which almost no trace has survived. That is belonged to the 'family' of Indo-European languages has been deduced from the many names of Illyrian peoples and places preserved in Greek and Latin records, both literary and epigraphic". Wilkes brought closer to us various tribes in Istria, Panonian plain, western Serbia, Bosnia, Dalmatia, Montenegro, northern Albania. He claims that "Illyrians were not homogeneous ethnic entity". And according Wilkes: "Illyrians disappeared into the Roman Empire".

You can see authors who I gave, 1. Fortson, 2. Biddeleux and Jeffries, 3. Joseph et al., etc. all after 2000.

I didn't give citation for Fortson, here is:

Fortson, 2010 (2 ed.), 2004 (I ed.)
Indo-European language and culture: An introduction

"Two untestable hypotheses about Illyrian's connection to other languages are widely held: that Illyrian is same as or closely related to Messapic, and that Illyrian is the ancestor of Albanian. The first hypothesis is based on the close cultural connections between the Messapians and Illyrians, and on certain similarities between some linguistic elements. The second hypothesis has very little, if any, linguistic support, but makes geographic sense... The possible relationship to Messapic does not help, for the Messapic inscription evince no obvious similarities to Albanians."

What we see here. Author clearly says that hypothesis about link between Illyrian and Albanian practicaly has no linguistic support. What we can see else. Wilkes clearly gives territory of all Illyrians. No today's south Albania included, inhabitants of what today is south Albania never were Illyrians. And if we see geographical sense (what Fortson writes) it can be because Albanians could come to today's territory in some intervall in the time and considerably after dissapearing of Illyrians in Roman empire.

There is all the way, it is clearly that here all are wasting time, but someone tries to find what doesn't exist. What is good, Illyrians and Messapic can be linked, if it is true, and it is known Messapic nothing to do with Albanian, it would be final point of this whole story.
 
'Albanoi' as a people appeared first in Ptolemy 3.12.20. In his description of the Roman world, the southernmost part of the province Illyricum included Scodra, Lissus and Mt Scardus (Sar Planina); and, adjoining it the northernmost part of 'Macedonia' included the Taulantii (in the region of Tirana) and the Albani, in whose territory Ptolemy recorded one city only, Albanopolis or Albanos polis. Thus the Albani were a tribe in what we now call Central Albania, and they were an Illyrian-speaking tribe, like the more famous Taulantii, in the second century A.D. Men of this tribe appeared next in 1040, alongside some Epirotes (their neighbours on land) and some Italiotes (their neighbours across the sea), in the army of a rebellious general, George Maniakis. Two chieftains of this tribe, Demetrios and Ghin, pursued an independent policy in the early years of the thirteenth century.


The Taulantii seem to be the only illyrians that Albanians seem to know about.

These people where always north of the Drilon ( drin river ) even after the 3rd Macedonian war.
They are noted by Pliny and Varro in 49BC as still to be north of the Drilon, neighbours with other tribes called the Daorsi.
it was only at the time of Octavians Illyrian campaigns of 35BC-33BC did they move south of the Drilon.

The only other tribes around the area of note was the Pirustae who where near scodra.........pliny calls them Pyraei
 
I really get incensed of Serbian stubbornness to belittle Illyrian parentage of Albanian, albeit this view is currently the most-embraced among scholars:
Some Illyrian tribes were either romanized or assimilated by later Slavic migrations, but others moved south into present-day Albania, where they managed to retain their identity, including the Illyrian language that is said to be the ancestor of the modern Albanian language.

Encyclopedia of Linguistics, ed. Philipp Strazny, 2013, p. 116
 
Please explain your theory on this Illyrian connection because Albania has less than 10% of ancient illyrian lands, it actually has 40% of ancient Epirote lands. With the Albanian government deciding in 1960 that the true Albanian language is Tosk and from this point , Tosk being the ONLY albanian dialect used in schools to this day, can only be from the conclusion that Albanians are more "greek" epirote than illyrian.

The bulk of illyrian mix is with the Bosnians and Croatians , while Slovenians and Montenegrins are either the same as Albanians or slightly more.
The Serbs have no illyrian mix, they have a thracian mix
True albanian being tosk?dont think so sile..anyway dont really matter,I think we have had this chat before..
 
I really get incensed of Serbian stubbornness to belittle Illyrian parentage of Albanian, albeit this view is currently the most-embraced among scholars:

You saw conclusions of professor of Historical linguistic in University of Michigan, US, Dr Benjamin Fortson, that hypothesis Illyrian as ancestor of Albanian has no linguistic support.

And that's not all, you saw that this American professor claims that Messapic has no similarities with Albanian.

Yes there is no hard evidence that Messapic and Illyrian are connected, but we know that there are thinkings that connection between Messapic and Illyrian exists.

For example, Wikipedia: "Messapian may have been related to the Illyrian language".

For Messapic, nearly 350 inscriptions were found in South-Eastern Italy, which are quite short.

You can see Messapic inscriptions:

ARTOS ATOTIOS TAI THOITAI GUNAKHAI PENSKLEN UPAVE

Very Albanian, isn't it.

No.

But you will probably be surprised that there are researchers who think that Illyrian and Messapic are actually Slavic languages.

Yes in Slovenia.

starejsa_slovenska_etnogeneza2.jpg



Vodopivec, Older Slovenian ethnogenesis (Starejša slovenska etnogeneza) , Jutro, 2010

About book, Dr. Anton Mavretič

“This book has three main parts representing a complete whole archaeological views of the collection system and treatment of Illyrian language. The most important part of understanding extends also to Illyrian – Slovenian inscriptions, which are the most numerous Messapic inscriptions, which were written by people at the eastern end of the Apennine Peninsula. The breadth and clarity of these inscriptions testify to our indigenous roots also in the whole area of the Adriatic Sea, which in Roman times called Illyria.”

For Vodopivec:
Venetian and Messapic languages are antique proto-Slavic languages as their inscriptions are understandable in the Slovenian language,
Historically and linguistically is incorrect link Illyrian with Albanian, Illyrian languages majority representing Slavic languages,
Also Etruscan, Rhaetic and Old Thracian are understandable in Slovenian language.

Messapic inscriptions can be read in Slovenian, Vodopivec shows how:

Example from above

ARTOS ATOTIOS TAI THOITAI GUNAKHAI PENSKLEN UPAVE

According to Vodopivec: added letter S, H is sound E, uncnown X can be D, L, A, and D is between Pensklen and Upave.
Text is now:

AR T OS ATO TI OSTAI TOI TAI GUNAK EAI EN SKLEN D UPAVE.
Slov. Mlad tu ostani ati, tu doli ostani junak, aja a mi sklenemo da upamo.

Eng. Young stay here daddy, stay down here the hero, you lie but we conclude to hope.

Glosar:
AR jar, mlad; young
T t, (tu); here
OS osti, ostani; remain
ATO ato, ati; father
TI ti; you
OSTAI ostaj, ostani; remain
TOI toj, tvoj; your
TAI, tai, ta; your
GUNAK junak; hero
EAI aja; lie
P p, pa (quick); and
EN en; one
SKLEN skleni; decide
D d, da; on me scar.
UPAVE upave, upamo
VE; ve
R
OS osti, ostani;
TAI, taj, ta, tu; this
a S, SI; you are
S s, si you are
KLEN klen; jope (Klen*)
UPA, Upati, hope
Ve, ve, know.
 
On your own ignorance you repeat with insults, if somebody doesn't agree with you-you insult,if somebody doesn't share your point of view-you insult that's part of your culture and behavior,it is very clear and it's not novelty that Albanian origin is disputed,about nationalism i think is rather the opposite Albanians use Pelasgian,Illyrian and every kind of myth for nationalstic claims and irredentism,my people didn't cared when Europeans wrote history that they came from somewhere in the 7th century and it's just theory out of couple like many other nor anyone care even today,but this is used by people like yourself for imagined irredentism,go ahead and post something about linguistics,i asked a historical question cause we don't write history on myths rather on facts and there is neither of those,but just myths,will leave your thread now might you will be the first to prove the link between Albanian and Illyrian once and for all (y)
I dont think you have any valid point milan nor can we speak about illyrians with someone who belives they are related to them even though they were in balkans before 6thctry.I dont belive albanians to be illyrian i belive we are thraco-illyrians not the one people..This would explain the gentic tests done in bulgaria being same genetic marker of albanian gheg,,I think you are trying to prove we have no relations to them because this would disrupt the lands that are in serbia..dont worry we have most of it back,,
 
You saw conclusions of professor of Historical linguistic in University of Michigan, US, Dr Benjamin Fortson, that hypothesis Illyrian as ancestor of Albanian has no linguistic support.

And that's not all, you saw that this American professor claims that Messapic has no similarities with Albanian.

Yes there is no hard evidence that Messapic and Illyrian are connected, but we know that there are thinkings that connection between Messapic and Illyrian exists.

For example, Wikipedia: "Messapian may have been related to the Illyrian language".

For Messapic, nearly 350 inscriptions were found in South-Eastern Italy, which are quite short.

You can see Messapic inscriptions:

ARTOS ATOTIOS TAI THOITAI GUNAKHAI PENSKLEN UPAVE

Very Albanian, isn't it.

No.

But you will probably be surprised that there are researchers who think that Illyrian and Messapic are actually Slavic languages.

Yes in Slovenia.

starejsa_slovenska_etnogeneza2.jpg



Vodopivec, Older Slovenian ethnogenesis (Starejša slovenska etnogeneza) , Jutro, 2010

About book, Dr. Anton Mavretič

“This book has three main parts representing a complete whole archaeological views of the collection system and treatment of Illyrian language. The most important part of understanding extends also to Illyrian – Slovenian inscriptions, which are the most numerous Messapic inscriptions, which were written by people at the eastern end of the Apennine Peninsula. The breadth and clarity of these inscriptions testify to our indigenous roots also in the whole area of the Adriatic Sea, which in Roman times called Illyria.”

For Vodopivec:
Venetian and Messapic languages are antique proto-Slavic languages as their inscriptions are understandable in the Slovenian language,
Historically and linguistically is incorrect link Illyrian with Albanian, Illyrian languages majority representing Slavic languages,
Also Etruscan, Rhaetic and Old Thracian are understandable in Slovenian language.

Messapic inscriptions can be read in Slovenian, Vodopivec shows how:

Example from above

ARTOS ATOTIOS TAI THOITAI GUNAKHAI PENSKLEN UPAVE

According to Vodopivec: added letter S, H is sound E, uncnown X can be D, L, A, and D is between Pensklen and Upave.
Text is now:

AR T OS ATO TI OSTAI TOI TAI GUNAK EAI EN SKLEN D UPAVE.
Slov. Mlad tu ostani ati, tu doli ostani junak, aja a mi sklenemo da upamo.

Eng. Young stay here daddy, stay down here the hero, you lie but we conclude to hope.

Glosar:
AR jar, mlad; young
T t, (tu); here
OS osti, ostani; remain
ATO ato, ati; father
TI ti; you
OSTAI ostaj, ostani; remain
TOI toj, tvoj; your
TAI, tai, ta; your
GUNAK junak; hero
EAI aja; lie
P p, pa (quick); and
EN en; one
SKLEN skleni; decide
D d, da; on me scar.
UPAVE upave, upamo
VE; ve
R
OS osti, ostani;
TAI, taj, ta, tu; this
a S, SI; you are
S s, si you are
KLEN klen; jope (Klen*)
UPA, Upati, hope
Ve, ve, know.
that silly seperate thoses words to get a meaning.I also can do this the same way that you just post lmao..doesnt matter hear im guessing you would have seen this a million times what are thoughts,,http://www.thelosttruth.altervista.org/SitoEnglish/pelasgian_etruscan_english.html
 
You saw conclusions of professor of Historical linguistic in University of Michigan, US, Dr Benjamin Fortson, that hypothesis Illyrian as ancestor of Albanian has no linguistic support.

And that's not all, you saw that this American professor claims that Messapic has no similarities with Albanian.

Yes there is no hard evidence that Messapic and Illyrian are connected, but we know that there are thinkings that connection between Messapic and Illyrian exists.

For example, Wikipedia: "Messapian may have been related to the Illyrian language".

For Messapic, nearly 350 inscriptions were found in South-Eastern Italy, which are quite short.

You can see Messapic inscriptions:

ARTOS ATOTIOS TAI THOITAI GUNAKHAI PENSKLEN UPAVE

Very Albanian, isn't it.

No.

But you will probably be surprised that there are researchers who think that Illyrian and Messapic are actually Slavic languages.

Yes in Slovenia.

starejsa_slovenska_etnogeneza2.jpg



Vodopivec, Older Slovenian ethnogenesis (Starejša slovenska etnogeneza) , Jutro, 2010

About book, Dr. Anton Mavretič

“This book has three main parts representing a complete whole archaeological views of the collection system and treatment of Illyrian language. The most important part of understanding extends also to Illyrian – Slovenian inscriptions, which are the most numerous Messapic inscriptions, which were written by people at the eastern end of the Apennine Peninsula. The breadth and clarity of these inscriptions testify to our indigenous roots also in the whole area of the Adriatic Sea, which in Roman times called Illyria.”

For Vodopivec:
Venetian and Messapic languages are antique proto-Slavic languages as their inscriptions are understandable in the Slovenian language,
Historically and linguistically is incorrect link Illyrian with Albanian, Illyrian languages majority representing Slavic languages,
Also Etruscan, Rhaetic and Old Thracian are understandable in Slovenian language.

Messapic inscriptions can be read in Slovenian, Vodopivec shows how:

Example from above

ARTOS ATOTIOS TAI THOITAI GUNAKHAI PENSKLEN UPAVE

According to Vodopivec: added letter S, H is sound E, uncnown X can be D, L, A, and D is between Pensklen and Upave.
Text is now:

AR T OS ATO TI OSTAI TOI TAI GUNAK EAI EN SKLEN D UPAVE.
Slov. Mlad tu ostani ati, tu doli ostani junak, aja a mi sklenemo da upamo.

Eng. Young stay here daddy, stay down here the hero, you lie but we conclude to hope.

Glosar:
AR jar, mlad; young
T t, (tu); here
OS osti, ostani; remain
ATO ato, ati; father
TI ti; you
OSTAI ostaj, ostani; remain
TOI toj, tvoj; your
TAI, tai, ta; your
GUNAK junak; hero
EAI aja; lie
P p, pa (quick); and
EN en; one
SKLEN skleni; decide
D d, da; on me scar.
UPAVE upave, upamo
VE; ve
R
OS osti, ostani;
TAI, taj, ta, tu; this
a S, SI; you are
S s, si you are
KLEN klen; jope (Klen*)
UPA, Upati, hope
Ve, ve, know.
By the way.pa ta ti si,ju pa.ate<<father,ar etc etc etc,,Their is much albanian in this but dont matter show how silly you are haha.
 
mods what are you waiting for? Garrick has already succeeded not only to derail but to infest the space with irrelevant sources, clinging upon far-fetched hypotheses to make the most absurd and surreal things seem normal. Messapic related to Slavic (?), clutching at straws! Stop misinterpreting Forston view! He clearly opts for the Illyrian theory as he explicitly states:

"The widespread assertion that it is the modern-day descendant of Illyrian, spoken in much the same region during classical times, makes geographic and historical sense, but it is linguistically unstable since we know so little about Illyrian".

It requires a lot of blindness to not apprehend the obvious - the fact that Albanian is by and large descendant of one of the Paleo-Balkan idioms which was spoken in Western Balkans. but only hardcore nationalists from Serbia are reluctant to come to terms with truth. A sense of blind nationalism is so deeply ingrained in their mind that no amount of education can disabuse them of it. I feel sorry for them! Perpetuating myths and fantasies to cater to your ideologies its a long standing serbian tradition. I implore you to stop participating on this topic as you are completely out of your element and you go off on a different tangent all the time.

gggo.jpg


Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture, J. P. Mallory, ‎Douglas Q. Adams - 1997, p. 288
 
It requires a lot of blindness to not apprehend the obvious - the fact that Albanian is by and large descendant of one of the Paleo-Balkan idioms which was spoken in Western Balkans. but only hardcore nationalists from Serbia are reluctant to come to terms with truth. A sense of blind nationalism is so deeply ingrained in their mind that no amount of education can disabuse them of it. I feel sorry for them! Perpetuating myths and fantasies to cater to your ideologies its a long standing serbian tradition. I implore you to stop participating on this topic as you are completely out of your element and you go off on a different tangent all the time.

Yeah it may sound powerful for

Albanians to be Illyrians
Serbians to be Triballians
Macedonians to be cousins of Alexander the Great
Bulgarian to be Thracians
etc...

but the truth is that after so many tries none of these people could be connected to anything ancient on Balkan. Not to say that you should not try more, but you're the one currently blinded by nationalism (or some different ideals). We just have a handful of ancient terms (of dubious lineage) in Albanian language. There are probably more IE words spoken in China ...

It simply proves nothing. Just a mild indicator of a possibility.
 
But I think, daco-romanian continuity myth is a nationalistic fairly tales.

I rather refrain from the vexing question where did Romanian coalesced. It requires considerable efforts to pinpoint their primeval areas. However, I do believe that proto-Romanian is inextricably linked with Albanian ethnogenesis. As many other scholars have cogently argued, Romanian represent a fully Romanized idiom which was spoken in the eastern sections of Moesia - its substrate was surely Illyrian; later on, a group of them shifted farther north where they gave birth to Romanians. In short, Romanian ethnogenesis falls in central Balkans, not far from Albanian areas.
 
Albanians to be Illyrians; Serbians to be Triballians; Macedonians to be cousins of Alexander the Great; Bulgarian to be Thracians
etc....

You're striving to relegate Illyrian ancestry of Albanian by drawing into comparison nationalist claims among Slavs who are anxious to prove a "Paleo-Balkanic" origin. No modern scholar ascribe Triballians as Serb's antecedents; its merely a random claim staked out by hardcore nationalists. By the same token, Macedonians plucked out of thin air the flimsy idea that they are Alexander's offsprings in a way to counter far more righteous Greek claims. Illyrian origin of Albanian is solely scholarly issue which is why most of scholars take into account. I assure you I'm not trying to score any point from this whole issue: we are all Indo-European.

We just have a handful of ancient terms (of dubious lineage) in Albanian language. There are probably more IE words spoken in China ...

I've already made clear my view: proto-Illyro-Albanian branched off at a certain period from its close NW-group (being the closest with Balto-Slavic group) and settled in Balkans.
 
About book, Dr. Anton Mavretič

“This book has three main parts representing a complete whole archaeological views of the collection system and treatment of Illyrian language. The most important part of understanding extends also to Illyrian – Slovenian inscriptions, which are the most numerous Messapic inscriptions, which were written by people at the eastern end of the Apennine Peninsula. The breadth and clarity of these inscriptions testify to our indigenous roots also in the whole area of the Adriatic Sea, which in Roman times called Illyria.”

For Vodopivec:
Venetian and Messapic languages are antique proto-Slavic languages as their inscriptions are understandable in the Slovenian language,
Historically and linguistically is incorrect link Illyrian with Albanian, Illyrian languages majority representing Slavic languages,
Also Etruscan, Rhaetic and Old Thracian are understandable in Slovenian language.

Messapic inscriptions can be read in Slovenian, Vodopivec shows how:

Are you saying, that the Slavs where in Italy in the late bronze-age?

If the slovenian language are understandable in venetic, messapic, etruscan, rhaetic etc its because the incoming slovene language vocabulary was so very poor and minor that they adopted the local language and absorbed the people to form a people called slovenes. We see no Slovenes in Roman history. So we must conclude they formed from a mix of very many different minor non-slavic tribes with a migrating slavic tribe circa 600AD
 
mods what are you waiting for? Garrick has already succeeded not only to derail but to infest the space with irrelevant sources, clinging upon far-fetched hypotheses to make the most absurd and surreal things seem normal. Messapic related to Slavic (?), clutching at straws! Stop misinterpreting Forston view! He clearly opts for the Illyrian theory as he explicitly states:



It requires a lot of blindness to not apprehend the obvious - the fact that Albanian is by and large descendant of one of the Paleo-Balkan idioms which was spoken in Western Balkans. but only hardcore nationalists from Serbia are reluctant to come to terms with truth. A sense of blind nationalism is so deeply ingrained in their mind that no amount of education can disabuse them of it. I feel sorry for them! Perpetuating myths and fantasies to cater to your ideologies its a long standing serbian tradition. I implore you to stop participating on this topic as you are completely out of your element and you go off on a different tangent all the time.

gggo.jpg


Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture, J. P. Mallory, ‎Douglas Q. Adams - 1997, p. 288

how can he make this claim if no illyrian text was found that I can recall
 
You're striving to relegate Illyrian ancestry of Albanian by drawing into comparison nationalist claims among Slavs who are anxious to prove a "Paleo-Balkanic" origin. No modern scholar ascribe Triballians as Serb's antecedents; its merely a random claim staked out by hardcore nationalists. By the same token, Macedonians plucked out of thin air the flimsy idea that they are Alexander's offsprings in a way to counter far more righteous Greek claims. Illyrian origin of Albanian is solely scholarly issue which is why most of scholars take into account. I assure you I'm not trying to score any point from this whole issue: we are all Indo-European.



I've already made clear my view: proto-Illyro-Albanian branched off at a certain period from its close NW-group (being the closest with Balto-Slavic group) and settled in Balkans.

The albanian claim to the term illyrian is a 20th century propoganda thing to claim some type of ancient association.........in the 19th century from the napoleonic wars 1808 to the franco-prussian war period of 1870..........illyria meant northern Adriatic area..................there where many scholars from many european nations who agreed with this term for this area.

Napoleonic French Empire, established in 1809 on the territories along the north and east coasts of the Adriatic Sea, which had been conquered in the War of the Fifth Coalition. Its capital was established at Ljubljana (Laybach). The name "Illyrian" was used to refer to ancient Illyrian tribes who once lived in the area and constitutes a Neoclassicist relabeling of the Dalmatian coast, which was known as Illyria in antiquity.
 

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