Religion 'Intelligent design' teaching ban in the US

[Gaijin 06]

Great news!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4545822.stm

Disturbing to click on the "Send us your comments" and read just how ignorant many people are about evolution & natural selection.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

That's a good result

 

[sadakoyamamura]

We humans always have this fear of what we don't quite understand. We tend to judge things negatively even if we know so little about that thing. I don't profess to know more than most about ID but I sure would like to know more. I think we ought to hear both sides of any story so we could think about its merits or demerits as thoroughly as we can.

 

[Kinsao]

I don't see why religious people get their horns in a knot over evolution. Couldn't God have caused evolution to happen, too? :souka:

 

[Gaijin 06]

We humans always have this fear of what we don't quite understand. We tend to judge things negatively even if we know so little about that thing. I don't profess to know more than most about ID but I sure would like to know more. I think we ought to hear both sides of any story so we could think about its merits or demerits as thoroughly as we can.

Sure, but let's not teach it as science. You can say let's teach the earth is flat and the earth is round in the same class and let people decide - it amounts to the same as "Let's teach ID and evolution in the same class".

Teach creationism in religious studies, or history - not science.

 

[sadakoyamamura]

I don't see why religious people get their horns in a knot over evolution. Couldn't God have caused evolution to happen, too? :souka:

Yup! I second you there... Forgive my ignorance but I get the feeling that if it sounds like religion, it doesn't, musn't have a place in educational institutions. :? This is definitely, something that I don't understand because I come from a place where religious education is being integrated in education.

edit:

@Gaijin 06: My apologies, the article did say that religion classes are banned in public schools. I'd say the decision of the school board to teach ID is a good thing since they only sought to improve science education. But if pupils are involved hmmm... Perhaps this is a case of "The end does not justify the means."

 

[Gaijin 06]

Yup! I second you there... Forgive my ignorance but I get the feeling that if it sounds like religion, it doesn't, musn't have a place in educational institutions. :? This is definitely, something that I don't understand because I come from a place where religious education is being integrated in education.

I received religious education at school as well. However apparently in the USA there is a a constitutional ban on teaching religion in public schools.

 

[Revenant]

Having gone to an interdenominational school for most of my school years, I learned creationism, and evolution was kind of glossed over. Impressionable at that age, I took what they said as just the way it was. Hitting the forums a couple years ago was a shock, and I slowly moved away from the Fundamental Evangelical Protestantism that I had been raised on and became a liberal Christian, espousing the big bang as God's way of starting the world, and evolution all just a part of His plan.

Other theological questions and an introduction to neuroscience and Buddhism eventually did my faith in. A troubled year, a confusing year for me this year was, but I do feel liberated. I will not let my son be seriously exposed to any religion or it's theories till he is old enough to actually question them. I think taking ID out of science is a great idea.

 

[kumo]

I don't see why religious people get their horns in a knot over evolution. Couldn't God have caused evolution to happen, too?

No, because what causes evolution to happen is natural selection and genetic mutations only, not god.

I'd say the decision of the school board to teach ID is a good thing since they only sought to improve science education.

Teaching creationism can not improve science education in any way whatsoever. Creationism is religion and will continue being so no matter what fancy name you give it.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

I'd say the decision of the school board to teach ID is a good thing since they only sought to improve science education.

I don't believe that. I think they were seeking to indoctrinate young people against the fact of evolution.

 

[No-name]

Creationism and evolution are two different ways of explaining who we are and where we come from. As origin mythologies- they compete and exclude each other- if you are a religious fundamentalist, this is going to be a problem.

Science teachers should teach good science. I don't want my teachers delving into "pet" theories that aren't widely accepted by the scientific community. It is not like there is a lot of room in the curriculum or instructional time,nor is evolution something that should be avoided or skipped. If you go beyond high school any college life science course or anthropolology course is going to assume you have a reasonably good working knowlege of evolution- not because is tells you who you are and where you came from, but because of its organizational and predictive value.

We know the earth isn't flat. Nor is it the center of the solar system. We got over those things and faith survived. Certainly God will survive this.

 

[Kinsao]

No, because what causes evolution to happen is natural selection and genetic mutations only, not god.

Ah, but what causes genetic mutations and natuaral selection to happen? :?

I'm not trying to argue for the teaching of ID! Far from it! I'm just saying that the existance of a deity, and the fact of evolution, are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Creationism, on the other hand, is a religion, which demands belief in a certain thing which contradicts science. And ID is teaching a thing that can't be proved by science. kashii:

 

[Pachipro]

I may get slammed for this, but here goes. *Deep breath*

Great news!

That's a good result

Is it really great news and a good result?

I think we ought to hear both sides of any story so we could think about its merits or demerits as thoroughly as we can.

I agree.

I don't see why religious people get their horns in a knot over evolution. Couldn't God have caused evolution to happen, too?

No. And he didn't cause evolution to happen as, natural evolution, as we are led to believe couldn't possibly have happened based on alternative research which the mainstream academics refuse to acknowledge or even accept on the outside, (as they know the real truth). Much like the religious leaders and "scientists" in Galileo's day when he tried to prove that the earth revolved around the sun and not vice-versa.

Teach creationism in religious studies, or history - not science.

On the contrary, as you will see, if you care to read some very well done research, complete with facts, it should be taught as a science AND history! It may not happen in our day, but it seems to be moving in that direction with the introduction of ID.

Hitting the forums a couple years ago was a shock, and I slowly moved away from the Fundamental Evangelical Protestantism that I had been raised on and became a liberal Christian, espousing the big bang as God's way of starting the world, and evolution all just a part of His plan.

Hit a few more pages like the link I provide below and you may just have a completely different perspective. It was not His plan and could never scientifically happen.

Other theological questions and an introduction to neuroscience and Buddhism eventually did my faith in. A troubled year, a confusing year for me this year was, but I do feel liberated. I will not let my son be seriously exposed to any religion or it's theories till he is old enough to actually question them. I think taking ID out of science is a great idea.

I completely understand your confusion as I went through the same thing and good for you in liberating yourself and for not allowing your son to be indoctrinated by false science, religion, and history. ID should be a science as that is how we were created. But we were not created by "Him" as we were led to believe. Myself included.

No, because what causes evolution to happen is natural selection and genetic mutations only, not god.

Wrong on both counts. Humans could not have possibly evolved on this planet. If that were the case we would not need sunscreen to shield our skin from the sun or sunglasses to protect our eyes. We would not need clothing and shelter nor warm ourselves from the cold winter or seek cool shade from mild summer heat. The fact is we are NOT native to this planet and never were. Unlike many of the mammels on this planet we are not adapted to this planet or it's climate and never were.

I think they were seeking to indoctrinate young people against the fact of evolution.

The fact seems to be that evolution is an impossibility. If we evolved from the primates, there would be no primates on the planet. But there are and scientists are still at a loss to provide the "missing link." Does anyone see evolution occuring on this planet?

Science teachers should teach good science. I don't want my teachers delving into "pet" theories that aren't widely accepted by the scientific community.

A little research will show you that they are not "pet theories". And why should they be accepted by the scientific community when most of what "they" are teaching us is false anyway? Unless it falls into "their" curriculum, "they" will not look at any other research no matter how factual it may be. "They" do not want to upset their applecart of teaching us false history and keeping the truth from us about our actual origins. In all honesty, "They" know the truth, but do not want us to know it for fear that we may not be able to handle the truth. Religion and the world would be turned upside down by the truth.

What am I getting at here by the above quotes? I am getting at the fact that most of what we are being taught today is false science and history and not at all true. Where did we come from? ID is my answer. Was it by God? No it wasn't. Then who created us you may ask? One look at my avatar may give you a clue and that's the reason I use it. Crazy you say? Pachipro is really off his rocker this time. He must really believe all that SciFi he has been watching and reading, and believing all that alternative science he has been researching for 25+ years. Pachipro is a nut! Well, they said Galileo and others were nuts too.

Since just my word is not enough evidence for anyone to believe, I ask you to check out a website by an alternative researcher by the name of Lloyd Pye and read his research on "Intervention" and some of his "Essays" about our true origins ( he lays waste to Darwins theories) with an open, but skeptical mind, and then tell me he is full of bunk. It's almost impossible to do. His slide shows, essays, and excellent research may have you just shaking your head and deciding to look in another direction for the answers to our true origins and questioning what we have really been taught in our schools and universities these past few hundred years.

Those with an open, inquisitive, searching for the truth mind, will devour his website from top to bottom looking for flaws. Pathological skeptics, or religious fundamentalists, will just ignore what he has written, much the same as the so called "scientists", learned people, and religious fundamentalists of the past did, blinding believing what those with letters and a university behind their names want us to believe.

All I'm doing here is offering another perspective which is probably more near the truth than anything we have been taught from our so-called learned professors and religious leaders. The truth will be revealed one of these days. Maybe that is why "they" are underhandingly tring to insert ID into the educational curriculum as too many people these days are slowly discovering the truth and are not happy that they have been kept in the dark all these years.

Thanks to the internet, The truth is out there, if you care and are not afraid to to read it with an open mind. Always be skeptical and make your own decision. A wise person will look at all perspectives before making a judgement.

 

[kumo]

Wrong on both counts. Humans could not have possibly evolved on this planet. If that were the case we would not need sunscreen to shield our skin from the sun or sunglasses to protect our eyes. We would not need clothing and shelter nor warm ourselves from the cold winter or seek cool shade from mild summer heat. The fact is we are NOT native to this planet and never were. Unlike many of the mammels on this planet we are not adapted to this planet or it's climate and never were.

Now that is what I call a strange argument. :relief:
As you probably know, human beings developed in Africa - where people seem to be living quite well to this day without any of those "basic survival needs" you mentioned - and migrated to the Near East and Australasia some 60.000 years ago, already with plenty intellectual capacity to make clothes or whatever was needed to survive. The problem with the sun is only recent (assuming you "believe" in the CFC effect on the ozone layer).
The fact that we are not fully adapted to all environments makes us no different than any other animal; except that, due to our intelligence, we have no reproduction or survival problems caused by the environment, thus making natural selection, and consequentely, evolution, not occur in the same way as other animals.

You really live up to your conspiratorialist title.:blush:

 

[kumo]

The fact seems to be that evolution is an impossibility. If we evolved from the primates, there would be no primates on the planet.

What??? Why would a group of "primates" evolving to humans cause other primates to go extinct, especially when these groups don't even compete directly? That is like saying that because there are Italian descendants here in Brazil (me included), there couldn't possibly be any "original" Italians left in this world. Even without using any logic your argument would still be flawed - humans didn't evolve from primates, both groups came from a common ancestor, they just evolved differently.

 

[Ma Cherie]

Now, I just hope the state of Kansas will follow suit. What made this whole "intelligent design" thing so bad is that some ultra-religious right wingers were trying push students to believe in the Christian God. And not include the theories of, should I say "other" Gods.

 

[Doc]

Another classic example of scared, narrow minded people afraid of acknowledging other outside ideas, and accepting them whether they believe in them or not. It is also another classic example of how both science and religion is full of morons who believe that if you don't agree with one side of the issue or the other, you're doomed. Too bad those dolts don't realize both are tools for human use and are altered all the time to fit our needs. Both even ignore the truth in some cases to fit our needs. Then again that brings into question of what we call the truth. Just what is truth? Is it necessary? Whose truth is right? One man's idea of truth may be another man's idea of falsehood. Simply put this all boils down to ignorant, narrow minded people unwilling to support different ideas, or at least respect and tolerate them.

Idiots...kashii:

Doc :wave:

 

[kumo]

Ah, but what causes genetic mutations and natuaral selection to happen?

Mutations are caused by copying errors during cell division, by exposure to radiation, viruses, chemicals, etc. Natural selection is caused by environmental pressure and its consequences on reproduction and survival rates. My point is, we can continue this "but what causes x and y" argument ad infinitum, but there will always be a perfectly reasonable explanation without using any "god" or "designer" concept. When we have exhausted all questions and their respective answers, it becomes clear that such concepts as a god or designer are in the best case totally unnecessary, most probably completely false, and most certainly against any scientific evidence.

 

[kumo]

Another classic example of scared, narrow minded people afraid of acknowledging other outside ideas, and accepting them whether they believe in them or not. It is also another classic example of how both science and religion is full of morons who believe that if you don't agree with one side of the issue or the other, you're doomed. Too bad those dolts don't realize both are tools for human use and are altered all the time to fit our needs. Both even ignore the truth in some cases to fit our needs. Then again that brings into question of what we call the truth. Just what is truth? Is it necessary? Whose truth is right? One man's idea of truth may be another man's idea of falsehood. Simply put this all boils down to ignorant, narrow minded people unwilling to support different ideas, or at least respect and tolerate them.

Idiots...

Doc, this must be like the 100th time you post in these kind of topics using the same old relativist fallacy, followed immediately by insulting anyone who actually has the knowledge to know one side is simply wrong. Seriously, it's getting ridiculous.

 

[CC1]

Did anyone see the interview on ABC news with the woman who started the latest ban in Dover? I thought it was funny that she is against Intelligent Design being taught...but while they interviewed her she was baking Christmas cookies!