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Iranic words in European languages.
mihaitzateo
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The IE Satem resemblances are obvious,between these languages.
Here are Albanian numbers to complete the Satem IE languages:
- 0 - zero
- 1 - një
- 2 - dy
- 3 - tre or tri
- 4 - katër
- 5 - pesë
- 6 - gjashtë
- 7 - shtatë
- 8 - tetë
- 9 - nëntë
- 10 - dhjetë
Romanian has :
2 - doi
6 - shase
9 - noua
which resemble Iranian.
"Romanian also got fazan,used for same bird,from where did you reached the conclusion this word is "Slavic"?"
Who said it is Slavic and why do you think this word is "Romanian"?
"
pheasant (n.)
late 13c. (mid-12c. as a surname), from Anglo-French fesaunt, Old French faisan (13c.) "pheasant," from Latin phasianus, from Greek phasianos "a pheasant," literally "Phasian bird," from Phasis, river flowing into the Black Sea in Colchis, where the birds were said to have been numerous. The ph- was restored in English late 14c. (see ph). The excrescent -t is due to confusion with -ant suffix of nouns formed from present participle of verbs in first Latin conjugation (peasant, tyrant, etc.). "
The transliteration of this word peasant in Slavic is "bežant" which derives from "beg" (flee; runner). The Polish version is even more original than Slovene for example which rather took the "F" instead of B, but this was typical for any betatism...
Who said it is Slavic and why do you think this word is "Romanian"?
"
pheasant (n.)
late 13c. (mid-12c. as a surname), from Anglo-French fesaunt, Old French faisan (13c.) "pheasant," from Latin phasianus, from Greek phasianos "a pheasant," literally "Phasian bird," from Phasis, river flowing into the Black Sea in Colchis, where the birds were said to have been numerous. The ph- was restored in English late 14c. (see ph). The excrescent -t is due to confusion with -ant suffix of nouns formed from present participle of verbs in first Latin conjugation (peasant, tyrant, etc.). "The transliteration of this word peasant in Slavic is "bežant" which derives from "beg" (flee; runner). The Polish version is even more original than Slovene for example which rather took the "F" instead of B, but this was typical for any betatism...
Diurpaneus
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I don't know about that...
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dance
Though,some meanings in Sanskrit are quite intriguing:'impel','to move','to run'.
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=dhan&direction=SE&script=HK&link=yes&beginning=0
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=dhvan&direction=SE&script=HK&link=yes&beginning=0
LeBrok
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Colors:
[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]Persian[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]Pronunciation[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]English[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]سفید[/TD]
[TD]sefid[/TD]
[TD]white[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]سیاه[/TD]
[TD]siyâh[/TD]
[TD]black[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]مشکی[/TD]
[TD]meški[/TD]
[TD]black[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]خاکستری[/TD]
[TD]xâkestari[/TD]
[TD]gray[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]توسی[/TD]
[TD]tusi[/TD]
[TD]dark gray[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]نقره ای[/TD]
[TD]noqrei[/TD]
[TD]silver[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]آبی[/TD]
[TD]âbi[/TD]
[TD]blue[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]بنفش[/TD]
[TD]banafš[/TD]
[TD]violet[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]سبز[/TD]
[TD]sabz[/TD]
[TD]green[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]قرمز[/TD]
[TD]qermez[/TD]
[TD]red[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]سرخ[/TD]
[TD]sorx[/TD]
[TD]red hot[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]صورتی[/TD]
[TD]surati[/TD]
[TD]pink[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]قهوه ای[/TD]
[TD]qahvei[/TD]
[TD]brown[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]زرد[/TD]
[TD]zard[/TD]
[TD]yellow[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]طلایی[/TD]
[TD]talâyi[/TD]
[TD]gold[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]لیمویی[/TD]
[TD]limuyi[/TD]
[TD]lemon[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]نارنجی[/TD]
[TD]nârenji[/TD]
[TD]orange[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Any cognates with European languages?
Perhaps a bit with Polish:
Gray - Szary (shari)
Yellow - żółty, Croatian- žut
Lithuanian
[TABLE="class: ver-zebra, width: 600"]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]black[/TD]
[TD]juoda[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]blue[/TD]
[TD]mėlyna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]brown[/TD]
[TD]ruda[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]gray[/TD]
[TD]pilka[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]green[/TD]
[TD]žalia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]orange[/TD]
[TD]apelsinas[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]purple[/TD]
[TD]violetinė[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]red[/TD]
[TD]raudona[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]white[/TD]
[TD]balta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]yellow[/TD]
[TD]geltona[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]Persian[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]Pronunciation[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]English[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]سفید[/TD]
[TD]sefid[/TD]
[TD]white[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]سیاه[/TD]
[TD]siyâh[/TD]
[TD]black[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]مشکی[/TD]
[TD]meški[/TD]
[TD]black[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]خاکستری[/TD]
[TD]xâkestari[/TD]
[TD]gray[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]توسی[/TD]
[TD]tusi[/TD]
[TD]dark gray[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]نقره ای[/TD]
[TD]noqrei[/TD]
[TD]silver[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]آبی[/TD]
[TD]âbi[/TD]
[TD]blue[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]بنفش[/TD]
[TD]banafš[/TD]
[TD]violet[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]سبز[/TD]
[TD]sabz[/TD]
[TD]green[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]قرمز[/TD]
[TD]qermez[/TD]
[TD]red[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]سرخ[/TD]
[TD]sorx[/TD]
[TD]red hot[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]صورتی[/TD]
[TD]surati[/TD]
[TD]pink[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]قهوه ای[/TD]
[TD]qahvei[/TD]
[TD]brown[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]زرد[/TD]
[TD]zard[/TD]
[TD]yellow[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]طلایی[/TD]
[TD]talâyi[/TD]
[TD]gold[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]لیمویی[/TD]
[TD]limuyi[/TD]
[TD]lemon[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]نارنجی[/TD]
[TD]nârenji[/TD]
[TD]orange[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Any cognates with European languages?
Perhaps a bit with Polish:
Gray - Szary (shari)
Yellow - żółty, Croatian- žut
Lithuanian
[TABLE="class: ver-zebra, width: 600"]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]black[/TD]
[TD]juoda[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]blue[/TD]
[TD]mėlyna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]brown[/TD]
[TD]ruda[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]gray[/TD]
[TD]pilka[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]green[/TD]
[TD]žalia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]orange[/TD]
[TD]apelsinas[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]purple[/TD]
[TD]violetinė[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]red[/TD]
[TD]raudona[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]white[/TD]
[TD]balta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]yellow[/TD]
[TD]geltona[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Alan
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[TABLE="width: 500"]
[TR]
[TD]Kurdish[/TD]
[TD]English[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]spî ; beyaz[/TD]
[TD]white[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]resh[/TD]
[TD]black[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]siyah[/TD]
[TD]black[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]gewr[/TD]
[TD]grey[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]zîv ; zîm[/TD]
[TD]silver[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]shîn[/TD]
[TD]blue [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]binefshî[/TD]
[TD]violet[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]kesk[/TD]
[TD]green [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]sor[/TD]
[TD]red[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]pembe[/TD]
[TD]pink[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]esmer[/TD]
[TD]brown [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]zer(d)[/TD]
[TD]yellow[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]zêr[/TD]
[TD]gold[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]narinc[/TD]
[TD]orange[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]lîmonî
[/TD]
[TD]lemon
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Alan
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Now as comparison Turkish
| Turkish | English |
| beyaz (loanword) | white |
| siyah (Iranic loanword) | black |
| karra(Arabic loan) | black/dark |
| boz | grey |
| gümüsh | silver |
| mavi (arabic loanword) | blue |
| menekshe ( turkified version of Iranic benefshe) | violet |
| yeshil | green |
| kirmizi (arabic loanword) | red |
| pembe (Iranic loanword) | pink |
| Kahve rengi (Kahve arabic and renk Iranic loanword) | brown |
| sari | yellow |
| altin | gold |
| turuncu (Iranic loan) | orange |
| lîmon | lemon |
Full of loanwords. Not unsual for Turkish, from my knowledge it would be hard to form two sentence without using a loanword. Turkish is very dependent on loanwords, especially Iranian.
Irony is that the Turkish state was promoting (and some circles still do) the Kurdish language as some sort of Persian/Turkish mix because they tended to claim that those words shared between Kurdish and Turkish are loans into Kurdish while in reality it's the opposite. Out of these three tongues Kurdish is the least foreign influenced language. In fact with an up to 90% of own vocabulary Kurdish is one of the purest, if not purest ( no exxageration here) Iranic tongues still alive. Persian for examples has a vocabulary of ~30% loans, while in Turkish it's up to 60%.
I mean how brazen must someone be to be able to claim someones tongue is some kind of "bastard" while you yourself speak in a tongue which is much better suited for this classification.
By the way here is were I got my information about the loans into Turkish. The official website of Turkish linguism.
http://tdk.gov.tr/index.php?option=com_gts&arama=gts&guid=TDK.GTS.5389ea273953f1.82916261
Last edited:
LeBrok
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In this case we might want to compare to Kurdish and not Persian/Iranian.
Kurdish pronouns, I'm not sure what phonetics they used here and if W is pronounced like in english or is it V?
[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center"]Number[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, colspan: 4, align: center"]Singular[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, colspan: 4, align: center"]Plural[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center"]Case[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, colspan: 2, align: center"]NOM.[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, colspan: 2, align: center"]OBL[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, colspan: 2, align: center"]NOM.[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, colspan: 2, align: center"]OBL.[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]normal[/TD]
[TD]suffix[/TD]
[TD]normal[/TD]
[TD]suffix[/TD]
[TD]normal[/TD]
[TD]suffix[/TD]
[TD]normal[/TD]
[TD]suffix[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1st[/TD]
[TD]Ez[/TD]
[TD]-(i)m[/TD]
[TD]Min[/TD]
[TD]-(i)m[/TD]
[TD]Em[/TD]
[TD]-(i)n[/TD]
[TD](ê)Me[/TD]
[TD]-man/(i)n[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2nd[/TD]
[TD]Tu[/TD]
[TD]-î[/TD]
[TD]Te[/TD]
[TD](i)t/u[/TD]
[TD]Hun[/TD]
[TD](i)n[/TD]
[TD](ê)We[/TD]
[TD]-tan/u[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3rd[/TD]
[TD]Ew[/TD]
[TD]-e[/TD]
[TD]Wê (FEM.)
Wî (MASC.)[/TD]
[TD]î/y[/TD]
[TD]Ew[/TD]
[TD](i)n[/TD]
[TD](e)Wan[/TD]
[TD]-yan
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Polish:
| Case | |||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1st - I | 2nd - you sg | 1st - we | 2nd - you pl | ||||||
| m - he | f - she | n - it | m personal | other | |||||
| Nom, Voc | ja | ty | on | ona | ono | my | wy | oni | one |
| Gen | mnie | ciebie/cię | jego/go/ niego | jej | jego/go | nas | was | ||
| Dat | mnie/mi | tobie/ci | jemu/mu/ niemu | jej | jemu/mu/ niemu | nam | wam | ||
| Acc | mnie/mię | ciebie/cię | jego/go/ niego | ją | je/nie | nas | was | ich/nich | je/nie |
| Inst | mną | tobą | nim | nią | nim | nami | wami | ||
| Loc | mnie | tobie | nim | niej | nim | nas | was |
[TH="colspan: 5"] singular [/TH]
[TH="colspan: 4"] plural [/TH]
[TH="colspan: 3"] 3rd - ( it )[/TH]
[TH="colspan: 2"] 3rd - they [/TH]
[TD="colspan: 2"]ich/nich[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]im[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]nimi[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]nich
[/TD]
Latin:
- I - Ego
- You - Tu
- He/She/It - Is/Ea/Id
- We - Nos
- You - Vos
- They - Ei
Lithuanian:
[TABLE="class: ver-zebra, width: 600"]
[TR]
[TD]I[/TD]
[TD]Aš[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]you[/TD]
[TD]tu/jūs[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]he[/TD]
[TD]jis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]she[/TD]
[TD]ji[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]we[/TD]
[TD]mes[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]they[/TD]
[TD]jie/jos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]me[/TD]
[TD]man[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]you[/TD]
[TD]jums[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]him[/TD]
[TD]jį/jam/juo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]her[/TD]
[TD]ją/jai/ja[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]us[/TD]
[TD]mus/mums[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]them[/TD]
[TD]jų/juos/jiems/joms[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
I see the most similarities in pronouns. I think they evolve the slowest of all the words.
Last edited:
Alan
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z is pronounced like in english or latin. Kurdish z is German s.
W is pronounced like in english.
Alan
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interesting similarities to Lithuanian.[TABLE="width: 500"]
[TR]
[TD]English[/TD]
[TD]Lithuanian[/TD]
[TD]Kurdish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]we[/TD]
[TD]mes[/TD]
[TD]me/ma/ema[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]me[/TD]
[TD]man[/TD]
[TD]min[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]you[/TD]
[TD]tu[/TD]
[TD]tu[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]I[/TD]
[TD]As (I think pronounced as Az)
[/TD]
[TD]Ez
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
unfortunately I didn't quite understand the chart with the Polish examples.
LeBrok
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I heard few times that Lithuanian is closest to Indo-Iranian from all European languages.
I - ja (ya)
you - ty
he, she, it - on, ona, ono
we-my
you-wy
they-oni
Alan
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What could be the reason for that?
I see kurdish similarities to "my". What is interesting Bavarian for we is "mia". It seems that this m=w loudshift is found among some Germanic languages (specifically Northern Germanic). I assume Bavarian mia must be closer to Proto Indo European.
Interesting on, ona resembles the Kirmancki-Hawrami branch of Kurdish which for which it is o, a.
MOESAN
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Lithuanian is considered as an archaic language in form - and as it is a 'satem' one close enough to indo-iranic and the less changed it is possible that this affirmation comes from this fact?:w
this old familial link explains why this thread is so full of traps we have to distinguish between PIE cognates and more recent loans
this old familial link explains why this thread is so full of traps we have to distinguish between PIE cognates and more recent loans
Alan
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But not all of those similarities I noticed can be explained simply as the result of archaicness among Lithuanian because they are not actually close to the Proto_Indo European cognates.
For example the ethmythology of I in Proto_Indo European is Egom. the g=z development is typically Iranic. Which was in Proto Iranic Ezem and is nowadays Ez in Kurdish.
MOESAN
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ALAN
the satem languages have by the fact very often the evolution *G to >> Z or ZH and *K to >> S or TCH or TS so...it is a common trait to satem
have you some examples of iranic(s)baltic(s) similar words, illustrating cognates vs loans?
thanks beforehand
the satem languages have by the fact very often the evolution *G to >> Z or ZH and *K to >> S or TCH or TS so...it is a common trait to satem
have you some examples of iranic(s)baltic(s) similar words, illustrating cognates vs loans?
thanks beforehand
Alan
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- 2,521
- Reaction score
- 462
- Points
- 83
- Ethnic group
- Kurdish
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- R1a1a1
- mtDNA haplogroup
- HV2a1 +G13708A
I thought so too, but than it could have been simply been loan.
To my mind comes Spas (kurdish) and Spasibo (Russian) or Mishk (Kurdish) and Mishka (Russian) for mouse.