Philosophy Is god a form of entertainment for the brain ?

[Maciamo]

Guess this blows your wispy Christian theory, eh?

There is another factor. IQ. Researches have found that IQ is inversely proportional to religiousness (see article).

Clark (2004) writing in Explorations: An undergraduate research journal reported that religious belief and behavior were negatively correlated with SAT scores in the USA.
...
Noted skeptic Michael Shermer (2000) found a negative correlation between education and religosity in the USA. Although Rice University indicates this may not apply to the social sciences

Naturally, social sciences include theology, history, sociology, etc. which are all compatible with religiousness by nature.

Of course, this is a very touchy issue, and it is not politically correct (especially in the USA) to admit that more intelligent people are less religious. Yet :

In one study examining people in the USA, 90% of the general population surveyed professed a distinct belief in a personal god and afterlife, while only 40% of the scientists with a BS surveyed did so, and only 10% of those considered "eminent."

Another study, again surveying people in the USA, found that mathematicians were just over 40%, biologists just under 30%, and physicists were barely over 20% likely to believe in God.

A survey of members of the United States National Academy of Sciences showed that 72% are outright atheists, 21% are agnostic and only 7% admit to belief in a personal God.

It is partly due to the nature of people according to their IQ. Here is what researches have found about learning styles linked to IQ :

<75 : simple, supervised work; eligible for government assistance
<90 : very explicit hands on training; IQ >80 for military training; no government assistance
>100 : written material plus experience
>110 : college format
>125 : independent, self-teaching

In other words, independent-minded and self-teaching people (like me) are the most likely to become atheist or agnostic, while people with lower IQ, who have more difficult to think or work by themselves, are much more likely to be religious.

This may turn really politically incorrect, but just to prove my point :

Women are more likely than men to believe in God (84% versus 73%). African Americans (91%) are more likely to believe in God than Hispanics (81%) and whites (78%). Republicans (87%) are more likely to believe in God than Democrats (78%) and Independents (75%). Those with no college education (82%) are more likely to believe in God than those with postgraduate education (73%).

Source

Researches have shown that IQ is directly correlated to brain size. It has also been established that men have bigger brains in average than women, and whites bigger in average than blacks. Tests have also shown that men get higher scores in maths than women, and whites higher scores in maths than blacks. (see Brain size and intelligence, race and intelligence and Sex and intelligence).

The correlation also match religiousness for the 2 categories, as black people are in average more religious than whites, and women more religious than men.

So, on all the line, whatever the criteria, religiousness and belief in god are both statistically inversely proportional to intelligence (in this case IQ, which means reasoning, logical and spatial skills, not including other features of intelligence such as language, artistic skills, motor skills, etc.)

 

[miu]

Actually, we already have pictures of atoms and its existence is just beyond reasonable doubt. What do you think pretty much all off Chemistry is based on? Magic?

Funny you should say that... I've always had a very firm belief in alchemy. :hanabi: ;P

I probably didn't articulate my point clearly enough for you. I just meant that things can be quite relative - people used to believe earth is flat until it was proved otherwise. I'm not saying that you should always question absolutely everything (too stressful), it was just a thought I found amusing. :bluush:

As for the "religiousness-lower life standard" case, I get the impression that Maciamo is assuming that being poor immediately means your IQ is lower, which consequently means that you're more religious. I would be more ready to believe that poor people are more prone to be religious as they might not see any other options to improve their life (in one way or another)... Does anyone know about religiousness in poor African countries? If you draw evidence from USA alone, it's also good to keep in mind that it still has a social security system of somekind... Also, it has been said that people liek to stick to what they know so if your family is poor, how willing are you to do somethign completely different and possibly alienate yourself from your family (atleast partially)?

I'm awfully bad at conveying my thoughts sometimes (I'm right-brained :bluush: ) but I hope that made some sense...

Entertainment for the brain or the last straw? :clueless:

 

[Mycernius]

Hmmmm............I don't think I would believe that God was some sort of entertainment for the brain. Some of the most intelligent people believed in God. (i.e. Albert Einstien) Besides, isn't natrual for man to believe there is some higher power then himself? That God may be concept of Man, (or vise versa) this is just my silly opinion, but that's how I feel at times. An average religious type being schizophernic, huh? :? Don't know about that. Yes true most religious people believe that believing in God is irrational, but I guess that's where their concept of faith comes into play. :?

Albert Einstein didn't believe in God

"I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religion than it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism."

"I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it."

"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."

A few others who didn't believe in God were:

Issac Asimov

"I am an atheist, out and out. It took me a long time to say it. I've been an atheist for years and years, but somehow I felt it was intellectually unrespectable to say that one is an atheist, because it assumed knowledge that one didn't have. Somehow it was better to say one was a humanist or agnostic. I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so strongly suspect that he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time."

Aldous Huxley

"You never see animals going through the absurd and often horrible fooleries of magic and religion. Only man behaves with such gratuitous folly. It is the price he has to pay for being intelligent but not, as yet, intelligent enough."

Abraham Lincoln

"The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."

Benjamin Franklin

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies."

To find other just type famous Atheists into Google.

 

[kumo]

I probably didn't articulate my point clearly enough for you. I just meant that things can be quite relative - people used to believe earth is flat until it was proved otherwise. I'm not saying that you should always question absolutely everything (too stressful), it was just a thought I found amusing.

Relativist fallacy . Opinions are relative, facts are not.

You seem to think scientific theories are either true or false, when in fact they are just more or less accurate descriptions of nature's workings. You also seem to to think that scientists are indoctrinated to buy into it, when in fact they do question everything they know, and have their work questioned and tested by their peers. That's a fundamental element of the scientific method.

Anyway, any theory being disproved doesn't make the religious 'answer' right. The valid options for any questions is not science or religion, it's science or saying 'I don't know, yet'.

Yes, people used to believe the earth was flat. In case you forgot, anyone who said otherwise used to be killed by the church.

 

[Ma Cherie]

According to this article I read, Albert Einstien did believe God. Even though it wasn't the Christian god. Or it's better to say that he at least thought about God.

This seems like an interesting place to visit.http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/arguments.html#einstein

 

[Mycernius]

Yes, people used to believe the earth was flat. In case you forgot, anyone who said otherwise used to be killed by the church.

Actually this is a fallacy. Humans have know the earth was a sphere since the greeks. Columbus knew the earth was round. Early church leaders knew the earth was round. Most likely Jesus and his disciples knew the earth was round. In Dantes inferno the medieval maps show the earth as a sphere. What people did believe was the earth was the centre of the solar system and the universe, until Copernicus and Gallileo proved differently. And they were both forced to repress their finding by the church.

 

[miu]

Anyway, any theory being disproved doesn't make the religious 'answer' right. The valid options for any questions is not science or religion, it's science or saying 'I don't know, yet'.

I don't think I said anywhere that the religious answer is the right one. I was merely introducing a small thought that popped into my mind during a conversation. I suppose I was just suggesting that it's sometimes good to reflect on your ideals and beliefs and the reasons for them.

A story related to that: I once met a girl in a bar who said she had converted into a catholic. I was naturally quite surprised as it's not exactly one of the most liberal religions you can find. So I asked her why she had converted and she said because she likes Italian. I don't think there's much more you can add to that... :blush:

Yes, people used to believe the earth was flat. In case you forgot, anyone who said otherwise used to be killed by the church.

And in case you forgot, there were all sorts of nice scientific experiments the nazis did during 2WW. There are theories and people who interpret and execute them. Do to others what you would do to yourself, indeed...

 

[kumo]

Actually this is a fallacy. Humans have know the earth was a sphere since the greeks. Columbus knew the earth was round. Early church leaders knew the earth was round. Most likely Jesus and his disciples knew the earth was round. In Dantes inferno the medieval maps show the earth as a sphere. What people did believe was the earth was the centre of the solar system and the universe, until Copernicus and Gallileo proved differently. And they were both forced to repress their finding by the church.

You are right, but I think this wasn't a 'common people' knowledge, and the church certainly didn't support the flow of information (I'm only talking about middle age).

Anyway, what I was trying to say is that most 'scientific theories' that we find absurd nowadays were not really scientific at all, as they were censored and many times created from scratch by the church, so they can't be used as examples of how science was completely wrong.

 

[kumo]

I don't think I said anywhere that the religious answer is the right one.

I know you didn't.

I was merely introducing a small thought that popped into my mind during a conversation.

Me too.

I suppose I was just suggesting that it's sometimes good to reflect on your ideals and beliefs and the reasons for them.

And I agree with you. This is the essence of freethought, wich is generally incompatible with religious ideas (though not necessarily).

And in case you forgot, there were all sorts of nice scientific experiments the nazis did during 2WW. There are theories and people who interpret and execute them. Do to others what you would do to yourself, indeed...

It's amazing how people use Nazism to try to prove any point
You're talking like these "experiments" were performed for the sole purpose of science, when the truth is the major reasons for the holocaust were their 'race' and their... religion :shock: (ok, they were not that major, but they certainly helped the masses adhere to nazism). On the other hand, when the church killed anyone who would disagree with them, their only reason was religious based. Of course science can be used for evil (as can be anything), but it's never the justification for it (provided an unbiased scientist).

 

[Pararousia]

Maciamo:

There is another factor. IQ. Researches have found that IQ is inversely proportional to religiousness (see article).

Just how many factors would you like to throw out? And how high would you say IQ has to be (before I tell you mine)? *L and shaking my head*

 

[studyonline]

I know this professor who teaches Physics at a university in my hometown. He told me a story long time ago. He thought he could figure out and "calculate" God. He hated even the idea of the existence of God, so he wanted to prove that was wrong. He simply could not do it. Now he is a Christian, not because he couldn't prove, but God visited him one day. Experiencing like that blows your mind. It becomes "impossible" to deny the reality and the truth. But while our brain searches for the truthfulness of it, we will go nowhere.

 

[kumo]

I know this professor who teaches Physics at a university in my hometown. He told me a story long time ago. He thought he could figure out and "calculate" God. He hated even the idea of the existence of God, so he wanted to prove that was wrong. He simply could not do it.

The burden of proof rests upon the one making the claim, wich in this case is the theist.

Now he is a Christian, not because he couldn't prove, but God visited him one day. Experiencing like that blows your mind. It becomes "impossible" to deny the reality and the truth. But while our brain searches for the truthfulness of it, we will go nowhere.

The old 'atheist in denial finds god' fundie tale. kashii:
Even in the very unlikely event that you didn't make this up, this doesn't really prove anything nor does it even qualify as an argument.


Gotta love how most fundies come to spam these kind of threads without ever adressing other people's points or actually trying to make one of their own kashii:

*waits for pages of bible spam*

 

[Maciamo]

I just meant that things can be quite relative - people used to believe earth is flat until it was proved otherwise.

Really ? To the best of my knowledge, Ancient Greeks, Egyptians, Chinese, etc. all knew that the earth was round. It is Christianity that brought this weird idea that the earth should be flat. So only Christians (and not even all) did believe that until Columbus (who was one of those who didn't believe it) proved them wrong. This is just one of many examples of how harmful Christianity has been to European civilisation. Among other things, Christianity slowed down sciences and philosophy, persecuted intellectuals, and I believe, was the main reason why the Roman Empire collapsed, about 100 years after Christianity was made the state religion.

As for the "religiousness-lower life standard" case, I get the impression that Maciamo is assuming that being poor immediately means your IQ is lower, which consequently means that you're more religious.

I didn't mention poverty, just sex, race and education. But poverty is also a factor. Yet, I never said that "being x immediately means your IQ is lower". This is much too simplistic. There are women, poor people, uneducated people or blacks that have very high IQ too. Then these factors do not all have the same factor of correlation. Racial differences of IQ are greater than gender differences within a same race, for example.

I would be more ready to believe that poor people are more prone to be religious as they might not see any other options to improve their life (in one way or another)...

This is also true. It may depends on opportuities too. The American dream has made a few people come out of povery to become extremely rich. So wealth is only a temporay, changeale thing. Sex and race aren't.

Does anyone know about religiousness in poor African countries?

It's vey high. I haven't heard of any significant atheist percentage in Africa.

A story related to that: I once met a girl in a bar who said she had converted into a catholic. I was naturally quite surprised as it's not exactly one of the most liberal religions you can find. So I asked her why she had converted and she said because she likes Italian.

My goodness, this girl incorporates shallowness at its utmost ! What's more, Italians are now mostly agnostic or atheistic.

And in case you forgot, there were all sorts of nice scientific experiments the nazis did during 2WW. There are theories and people who interpret and execute them. Do to others what you would do to yourself, indeed...

Weren't the Nazi some kind of extremist Christians, like the Ku Klux Klan...

 

[Maciamo]

According to this article I read, Albert Einstien did believe God. Even though it wasn't the Christian god. Or it's better to say that he at least thought about God.

The god he believed in was a kind of pantheistic god. Differenciating a apntheist from an atheist is just a matter of definition. For a pantheist, Nature is God, god is everything in everything and we are part of it. Now, just call that nature, energy or whatever, and you are atheist. In any case, he was not religious.

 

[Maciamo]

Just how many factors would you like to throw out? And how high would you say IQ has to be (before I tell you mine)? *L and shaking my head*

Good question. I haven't read any statistical research giving the exact precentage of chance to be religious or non-religious according to IQ. I'd say that among exceptionally gifted people (IQ above 135), over 90% are non-religious or atheist. But there is also cultural and societal factors to consider. In Japan, many people are not religious but they are not exposed to strong religious ideas either. How can you be really religious if you are Shintoist ? In some US states or Muslim countries, one would be quite well advised not to publicly announce that they are atheist, and force to be religious if they want to fit/conform. In Europe, it's fine to be an atheist, ok to be a bit religious, weird/frightening to be obsessively religious (eg. go to church every Sunday or quote the Bible).

I think there is no minimum IQ to be a "weak atheist", but there is certainly one to be a self-proclaimed "strong atheist". However, I am not sure what it is (I doubt than an IQ under 80 be sufficient in the best of the cases; and I'd say over 110 to have a 50-50 chance of being a strong atheist, then over 80% of chance over 125 as people are more independent-minded and self-taught).

 

[Maciamo]

Now he is a Christian, not because he couldn't prove, but God visited him one day.

How did he know it was the Christian god ? Because it was the only thing he was familair with ? What Christian denomination (e.g. Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Orthodox, Coptic...) did he choose to follow from this revelation ? Did god actually tell him which of the Christian sect was the right interpretation ?

So your professor of physics is one of the 20% of American physicists to believe in god. May I ask how old he is and how well educated he is about history, liguistics, psychology, etc. One of the problem of specialised scientists is that some lack broader intellectual interests than their field of speciality and are therefore not great philosophers.

Then it doesn't take such a high IQ to become university professor. It has been proven that exceptionally gifted people (IQ above 99% of the population) are so much self-learner that they often reject the whole institutionalised school/university system, as they find it boring and too conformist. That's also why I do not attach much importance to academic titles. It's mostly made to impress the masses ("oh, I have a PhD but I think that god exist because he talked to me !").

 

[studyonline]

Interesting, I never mentioned on IQ. lol

There is only one God. To those who don't know, they can see most religions are so similar I bet. So that was a typical question. Why is he following Jesus then? The Bible says that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. By the way, the professor tried other religions, spiritual rituals too. Just like any other non-Christians would try and find God with their brains, logical approach or scientific methods. He probably retired by now. So over 65 easily. If I remember right, the university needed him for few extra years. As for how well educated, let's just say that you would be humbled if you can talk to him. I don't even try to give you some info on this since PhD degree is not a big-deal thing.

I don't trust PhD degrees really. Just like I don't trust the reliability of your information on IQ. Or any other earthly resources. Having said those, I don't even try to convice anyone by my story either.

As for a divine visitation from God, God can appear in any way at any time. You can talk about your opinions on anything. But experiencing is sometimes so powerful. Have you ever been to Japan to experience the culture? Wasn't it more than a study from a book?

 

[Maciamo]

There is only one God. To those who don't know, they can see most religions are so similar I bet.

As you visibly are the one who doesn't know, not all religious are monotheistic. Hindus have millions of gods, and not a single one is considered as more powerful or important by all Hindus (although a few gods are more important than the rest). Shintoists in Japan believe in the spirits of nature, and some humans that have become gods (e.g. former emperors). Buddhism has many branches, some atheistic, some pantheistic and some polytheistic. There is no concept of a unique god, nor even that gods are almighty. Almost all ancient religions were polytheistic. You are claiming that all religions only have one god or are similar, but what you meant was maybe all branches of Christianity ?

He probably retired by now. So over 65 easily.

Not surprising. Maybe people suddenly find "revelations" when they become senile (the actual age depends a lot on the people).

 

[studyonline]

Do you know what we say about religions in Japan? ???S???̐_?@?i?₨??낸?̂???-in case you couldn't read it) is an expression and the view of many Japanese people on religions. As you asked before, they always ask the same thing when a conversation like this happens, "which god are you talking about?".

To those who don't know God, they think alike. Not that I don't recognize the different theories or belief systems. I know those differences in religions well enough as I grew up there and lived there for over 20 years. Some people there even worship the head of fish.

I know about denominations too. I know some historical background on major denominations as well. But that is not important thing here.

I believe Christianity is more than a religion. The term religion is not really a correct way to see Christianity though this is my opinion. To me, believing in Jesus is more than that. It is a daily walk and relationship with Him. Not a mere acknowledging on a religious teaching or vague concept on God. So what I meant was that to those who never experienced and received the revelation of who God is, they basically this common thing-lack of experience. I include those so-called Christians in it, too. Because going to church on Sundays will not always make a person a true believer of God. Just because you have opened the Bible won't really make you "know" there is true God. Even if you are recognized by many, having PhD in theology, studied for 30 years, or how great achievement you accomplished, only God can reveal Himself, and only after the experience, you can know the truth.

By the way, the professor is now over 65. He became Christian around 15-20 years ago.

 

[Mycernius]

I know this professor who teaches Physics at a university in my hometown. He told me a story long time ago. He thought he could figure out and "calculate" God. He hated even the idea of the existence of God, so he wanted to prove that was wrong. He simply could not do it. Now he is a Christian, not because he couldn't prove, but God visited him one day. Experiencing like that blows your mind. It becomes "impossible" to deny the reality and the truth. But while our brain searches for the truthfulness of it, we will go nowhere.

I know of stories that go the other way. People upset about the fundelmentalist nature of Christianity, by some people, or how their God can be so cruel, that they turn away from Christ and find comfort in another religion or with no God at all. This story really proves nothing.
This story also has put a picture of God knocking on this persons door and introducing himself, "Hello, I'm God. Can I borrow a cup of sugar?". I'm sorry, but that's the type of picture it paints.
Christianity is no more or less important than any other religion. To say differently smacks of arrogance and ignorance.