Is "Harvard" a variant of Hrvat/Croat? (OFFTOPIC from "Searching for famous I2"...)

[Clarissant]

Is "Harvard" a variant of Hrvat/Croat? (OFFTOPIC from "Searching for famous I2"...)

Hi Everyone, this is my first post.

I was wondering if John Harvard (i.e. benefactor of Harvard University) was from Haplogroup I (either I2 or I1).

For example, I noticed there are many surnames throughout Europe which derive from the word Hrvat/ Croat such as: Horvath, Horvat in Hungary and Slovakia; and Chrobat/ Chrovat in Czechoslovakia. Moreover, Haplogroup I is a significant Haplogroup for Croats, especially in Dalmatia and Bosnia/ Herzegovina. In this way, perhaps the surname "Harvard" has etymological links to Hrvat/ Croat and thus, John Harvard could be a carrier of Haplogroup I?

Basically, my conjecture is that these Hrvat analogous surnames might indicate an etymological link to the word Croat/ Hrvat and thereby (possibly) indicate a Haplogroup I lineage and its diaspora -- or at least, a Croatian/ Illyrian diaspora. I base my postulations on the following interesting observations.

1. These surnames/ names are phonetically similar to "Hrvat" (which means Croat in Croatian):

Scottish & English: Harvard (tip: roll the "r" and it sounds like Hrvat), Harrvard, Havard, Hoavert, Haverd, Harverd, Hereford, Hovard, Haruard, Hereweard, Hovard, Heruart, Hereuuard, Haruard, Houvert
Danish & Dutch: Hovart, Hoovart
Welsh: Havard
Armenian: Hravart, Hravard (which means "fire rose" in Armenian i.e. Hrat means 'heat', 'fire', 'Mars' and Vart means 'rose').

2. Then there are foods, place names and other words that seem to derive from "Hrvat"/ Croat, such as:

Denmark: Havarti cheese (cheese of the Hrvati/ Croats?)
Sweden: Hvetlanda/Vetlanda, a place name (land of Hrvats?/ Croats?)
Germany: Old Germanic word for Noble was "Chruod" i.e. Croat? (Research House of Nott for details). This association is possible when considering the origin for all of Europe's noble houses was in Illyria/ Dalmatia/ Croatia i.e. via Emperor Constantine.

3. Furthermore, an enlightening quote I stumbled across on the web (by a person called 'Chief Royal Herold of Westphalia Germany'), noted:

"The house name is most widely accepted to be from the Danish name "Knut", it derives from the old Scandinavic name "chnout" which itself derives from old Germanic "chnot, chun" which derives from Germanic "chroud". The meaning is always the same: noble! The German and English words Koenig...King are deriving from the same Germanic principal form."

Moreover, the noble family Knut/ Nott derived their surname from the Germanic word Chnot/ Chruod meaning noble (and possibly Croat too). They trace their lineage back to Dalmatia in Croatia (and the "supposed" historical "King Arthur" i.e. Lucius Artorias Castus).

Other names derived from the Nott lineage are:

- Knud
- Knudt
- Knuth
- Kanut
- Canut
- Canute (English)
- Knutti (Finnish)
- Knød (Danish)


4. Using the same rationale above, I also wonder if the Irish place name Connaught derives from the Germanic term knut/ chnout/ chroud/ Croat too? Could this then be a hotspot for Haplogroup I2 or I1 carriers?



So, essentially, while the etymological roots of the term Croat/ Hrvat are still debatable, it appears the name derivatives of "Croat"/ "Hrvat" are common throughout Europe (which could make for an interesting study tracing the Haplogroup I1 and I2 diaspora via the presence of Croat/ Hrvat surnames or place names etc). It would also be insightful to compile a similar study for ethnographic terms such as Bosnian/ Herzegovinan/ Serb/ Illyrian/ Dalmatian/ Dalmat etc.

In the meanwhile, I would like to glean if others know of any surname/ place names etc that might suggest an etymological link to "Croat"/ "Hrvat". And whether John Harvard's Haplogroup is known.


Thanks in advance!

NB The name Horvat (meaning Croat/ Hrvat) is the most frequent surname in Croatia & Slovakia. In Slovenia, it's the second most frequent surname. In Hungary, it's the fourth most frequent surname (also noted as Horvath). The surname originates in Croatia where Horvat is supposedly older than the word Hrvat (meaning Croat in Croatian).

 

[sparkey]

And whether John Harvard's Haplogroup is known.

I don't know of any samples of people who are related paternally to John Harvard. Perhaps also of interest to you would be this Havard sample (usually a Welsh spelling as you note): 7ZXFT

I'm not convinced by the etymology you offer, at least for the English name. You even note the old variant Hereweard, "army guard" in Old English; any reason to dismiss that one as the origin for at least some English Harvards?

I'm not sure that the Welsh "Havard" has a known etymology, though. Maybe you'll have more luck with that one?

 

[Clarissant]

Thanks for your helpful reply and reference Sparkey!

It was very interesting to see Haplogroup I1 cited for the noted Harvard individual in your provided link.

As for the etymology of Harvard, yes, I did read the Old English interpretation. However, I do believe the name is also related to continental variants (which might pre-date the Old English 'Hereweard' you cited). Also, the Welsh Havard is noted as a variant of the English Harvard. So, in this sense, I don't believe Harvard can be entirely precluded from the possibility of being related etymologically to Hrvat. After all, if Harvard is related etymologically and even relationally/ genealogically to bearers of the Dutch surnames Hovart and Hoovart, and these latter mentioned names are analogous (to a significant degree) to other continental variants of Hrvat (such as Horvath etc), then why not Harvard? In other words, what I'm suggesting is that the surname Harvard has morphed throughout the ages in England far beyond 'Hereweard', such as: Harrvard, Havard, Hoavert, Haverd, Harverd, Hovard, Haruard, Hovard, Heruart, Hereuuard, Haruard, Houvert etc, and many of these English variants look and sound like Hrvat. That is incontestable.

Also, the history of Illyria and the 'Isle of Angles/ Angels' are not irrevocably disparate to categorically rule out the possibility that Harvard and Hrvat are etymologically linked. For example, the three crowned lions found on the standard of "King Arthur" and the British Crown is derived from the ancient Coat of Arms of Dalmatia/ Emperor Constantine (which incidentally, is also found on the heraldic arms of the House of Nott - a noble family with origins in Dalmatia). Thus, if Constantine was the so-called "official" first ruler of Britannia/ Christendom/ Europe, and Constantine was an Illyrian Emperor, is it not possible that Illyrian subjects called "Hrvats" lived in all parts of his Empire, including Britain, and retained their ethnographic name as a surname? And if so, it seems entirely reasonable to assume that the (possible) "English" spellings of the surname Hrvat underwent changes that reflected spelling fashions, bureaucratic mistakes, provincial idioms and linguistic politics etc of different epochs whilst retaining their phonetic integrity, (just as other surnames and language routinely undergo organically).

Of course, I'm only in the preliminary stages of investigating whether Harvard is etymologically related to the word Hrvat etc, so perhaps I'll find conclusive evidence that it isn't. Or perhaps there can never be a definitive answer. However, at this early stage, my hunch is that they are related.

In any case, thank you kindly for your time! Much appreciated


PS I've discovered some more variants of the surname Horvat (meaning Hrvat/ Croat):

- Horvatt
- Horwarth
- Horwath
- Chrovat
- Chrobat

I'm now wondering whether the names Howard and even Hobart could be etymologically linked to Hrvat/ Croat too. Not sure. But it appears etymologically possible i.e. as shown above, v can be interchanged with w and likewise v with b (as well as t with d - as shown with the Havard/ Harvard/ Hovart/ Hoovart example in the previous past).

Anyway, it's just a theory at this stage. If you or another person know of any other surnames or place names etc that are similar to Horvat/ Horwarth/ Hrvat/ Horvath etc, please feel free to list them. Many thanks!

 

[Clarissant]

I've just read this on another Eupedia thread by TommyGun991:

********************************

I came across something interesting:

EU7
Croats 44,8%
Lapps (Saami): 41,7%
Germans: 37,5%

EU19
Hungarians 60%
Poles 56%
Ukrainians 54%
Croats: 29%


Germanic-Dinaric haplogroup (Eu7 or I) is the most frequent in West Balkans (to 73% in Dalmatia and Herzegovina), reaching across Germany northwards to Scandinavia (48 %) and eastwards to Caucasus (58 %), Kurdistan and Teheran (to 34%). It includes 4 similar regional subtypes. The Germanic-Dinaric haplogroup is divisible into the Germanic haplogroup (I1), which is most common in Scandinavia, and the Dinaric haplogroup (I2), which is most common in the West Balkans.


.....21 Horithi, Horiti, C.'— Horigti, L. A Slavonic race, placed by Alfred the Great to the east of the Slavi Dalamenti, who occupied the district north-east of Moravia...... See note 23. R. T. Hampson,. Notes and Qrs, No 17,. p. 258.— S. W. Singer says,— The Horiti of Alfred are undoubtedly the Croati, or Crowati of Pomerania, who still pronounce their name Horuati, the h supplying the place of ch. Nor does it seem unreasonable to presume that the Harudes of Csesar (De Bel. Gall. I, 31, 37, 51) were also Croats; for they must have been a numerous and widely spread race. They are also called Charudes, *ApovO€^, The following passage from the Annales Fuldenses, A. 852, will strengthen this supposition ; — '' Inde transiens per Angros, Harudos,. Suabos, et Hosingos • . .. Thuxdngiam ingreditur." Notes and Qrs, No 20, p. 314


This would mean that the Harudes (Χαροῦδες) were in all likelihood a Slavic-Gothic alliance, which would account for their large numbers and highly regarded standing and privileged position. This root name is the genesis of the emerging 'Hrvati' ethnonym and people down to this day. (As seen it also had a part to play in topography, names and place names elsewhere, even the very Carpathians mountains...[Horvatya/Harvathi/Harvaða in the later Gothic epics] This again would partly explain and emphasize the truth of the descriptions of Croats being called Goths as well as Slavs in later Roman and Byzantine accounts also.


From the Polish territories called Lingonia seven or eight tribal clans arrived under Totilo. When they saw that the Croatian land would be suitable for habitation because in it there were few Roman colonies, they sought and obtained for their duke...The people called Croats...Many call them Goths, and likewise Slavs, according to the particular name of those who arrived from Poland and Bohemia..... (Historia Salonitana)


According to the etymologist, E. Forstemann, the Gothic root "Hroth!" had various forms such as Hruad, Hruat, Hroad, Hruot, and Chrout. During the time of 10th century Croatian King Stephen Držislav there is a Royal Inscription which in Latin reads "Dux Hroator" - "Duke of the Croats".

Prof. V. Giuffrida Ruggeri at the Anthropological Institute in Naples also offered the claim that long ago the original Croats of Europe were not Slavs, but rather Goths/Germanic who were then Slavicized

"The Saga of Hervör and Heithrek (Translated by Nora Kershaw in 1921)....notice the names..".....By her he had twelve sons. The eldest was Angantyr, then Hervarth, thenHjörvarth, Sæming and Hrani, Brami, Barri, Reifnir, Tind and Bui.......... "This pike at the mouth of the river, Has paid the penalty, For the slaughter inflicted on Heithrek, "Neath the Mountains of Harvathi....."​

********************************

This is interesting information. It seems these highlighted names are variants of Hrvat/ Croat (which further strengthens the argument that Harvard etc is derived from Hrvat/ Croat and thus Harvard could be representative of Haplogroup I).

 

[sparkey]

Moved this to its own thread just now. Hopefully you'll get more responses here than having the discussion buried in the large "Searching for famous I2 carriers" thread.

 

[Clarissant]

Thanks Sparkey!! Much appreciated

 

[MOESAN]

I'm afraid you put a lot of surnames (germanic for the most) in the same bag when they have different eymologies (except some "transfuges" having underwent a writing mutation) among germanic countries and without any link, I think, with Horvath, Hroat or other Chorvat... a lot of them has also 2 R in them-
concerning Knut and names in Chut/Chrut- I have some difficulties to swallow it without any more proof - the germanic evolution of Ch- before L and R and N is a complete lost: /./ except in icelandic !!! not a back way to K, for I know -
nothing is completely impossible but I find very hazardous all these comparisons between multisources surnames -

 

[Clarissant]

Thanks for your reply Moesan !

It's helpful to re-analyze an argument through another person's perspective.

My reply is that, yes, I hear what you're saying. The linguistic relationship might at first appear tenuous. However, the Croats have one of the highest concentrations of haplogroup I (i.e. an indigenous, Old Europe haplogroup), which is also found in very high concentrations in Scandinavia and other so-called "Germanic" nations. Albeit, they are different subclades, however, they do share an ancestry. And the proliferation of Croat/ Hrvat derived names are relatively abundant, widespread and phonetically identical, (and at times even display identical etymological roots too), that it would be intellectually dishonest, I think, to pass off these variants as mere "coincidence" i.e. they are not etymologically/ ethnographically/ linguistically related.

Moreover, your argument concerning the presence of the Ra haplogroup (i.e. which some deem a "Slavic" haplogroup) within sampled Croat cohorts, is worth questioning. Firstly because your chief reason for rebutting (though not entirely discounting) my argument, is 'blind-sighted' by the Slavic linguistic affiliation of modern-day Croatians. This has led you to misrepresent Croatians as mainly having a primarily Ra haplogroup/ Slavic ethnographic profile. This of course, is misrepresentation/ oversight of Croatian's true haplogroup identity, which in turn makes your rebuttal's premise (and thus argument) unsound for the following reasons:

• The Ra haplogroup is very prevalent even in so-called "Germanic" nations. Indeed, the Balkan regions have some of the lowest concentrations of Ra haplogroups, even compared to some traditionally "Germanic nations" - and even far less than the traditionally deemed "Slavic nations" such as Russia and Poland. Indeed, Hungary, a country not traditionally perceived as "Slavic" (but rather Finno-Ugaric), is actually far more "Slavic" than "Balkan" nations, (i.e. if we use your yardstick that equates high/ significant Haplogroup Ra concentrations with a Slavic ethnographic identity/ genetic heritage). In this way, a modern national or regional language does not accurately reflect an ethnic group's true genetic heritage. Likewise, the present Slavic Croatian language can not be seen as the linguistic "parent" of the words Hrvat/ Croat. Rather, these ethnographic terms should be considered an Illyrian (pre-historical?) word with plausible links to many Germanic/ Scandinavian surnames/ names/ places etc - indeed, these Hrvat/ Croat variant names are diffused throughout Europe, be it traditionally Celtic/ Germanic/ Slavic/ Finno-Ugaric etc nations and regions.

• Although contemporary Croats speak a Slavic language, it appears they have far higher concentrations of Haplogroup I in comparison to haplogroup Ra, (even up to 60-70% in Dalmatia & Bosnia Herzegovina). In this way, I believe their genetic affiliation is more accurately described Illyrian. Furthmore, the name "Balkans" is a Turkish term hangover from the Ottoman Empire. In contrast, the name Illyria pre-dates the Ottoman Empire and other modern political-geographical terms, including it's modern "Slavic" label.

• Understandably, I think Croatia's modern "categorisation" as a "Slavic nation" might cause an unconscious "knee-jerk" reaction which prematurely leads one to discount the presented evidence. However, even a cursory examination of the evidence will show a strong support for the theory outlining an etymological/ cultural/ genetic relational link between the Illyrians and so-called "Germanic" ethnogroups i.e. proto-Celts, Ostrogoths, Goths, Vikings, Scandinavia, Germanic nations etc. I also believe there is a relationship between the Illyrians and the ancient/ prehistorical Hellenic culture too...but I'll leave that for another time...

• Another interesting fact that elucidates my argument is that the Dalmatians of Illyria/ Balkans originally spoke a Romance language, not a Slavic language, which was similar to French and Latin. The last person to speak that Romance Dalmatian language passed away at the turn of the 20th Century. Clearly then, the Illyrian region, being at the epicentre of various Empires, would have undergone the fashions and politics dictating the usage of official language. Indeed, various regions spoke Italian, and even German too. Thus, the wholesale appropriation of a Slavic language within Illyria/ Balkans appears to be a comparatively recent phenomenon: similar to the experience of the people of Alsace/ Lorraine - for they spoke either German or French (or both), depending on the politics and redrawn border lines of the day. In this way, it is remiss to superimpose a Slavic ethnographic/ linguistic label on the Illyrian word Hrvat/ Croat.

• I believe the quotes below are key to unlocking the etymological links between Croatian/ Illyrian and "Germanic" etymologies:

"According to the etymologist, E. Forstemann, the Gothic root "Hroth!" had various forms such as Hruad, Hruat, Hroad, Hruot, and Chrout."

"During the time of 10th century Croatian King Stephen Držislav there is a Royal Inscription which in Latin reads "Dux Hroator" - "Duke of the Croats".'
​

Ergo,


​

A) The Gothic root "Hroth" was interchangeable with Hruad/ Hruat/ Hroad/ Hruot/ Chrout - which are very similar to the old Illyrian/Croatian plural word "Hrvats", "Hroator" (thus, the singular term would be "Hroat"). Any etymologist worth his salt can see the Germanic term "Hroad" and Illyrian/ Croatian term "Hroat" are etymologically related and interchangeable; indeed, the letter 'd' and 't' are almost phonetically identical and routinely interchanged/ used by historical scribes.
​

B) Chrovat and Chrobat are two surnames which mean Croat; just as Horvarth/ Horvart are surnames that mean Croat. In this way, the Germanic term for noble (i.e. Chroud) can be viewed as linguistically analogous, thus 'highly likely' to also mean "Croat" because they are phonetically identical.
​

C) I would argue that Germanic and Illyrian histories / linguistics / genetic heritages are not as disparate as you might initially believe. For example, The House of Nott a noble family, derive originally from Dalmatia (NB their House name Nott derives from the Germanic word for noble i.e. Chroud), are seen as having a Germanic affiliation and are direct kin of the Viking/ Scandinavian monarch, Knute. Knute's name is also derivative/ a variant of the Nott name, for example: Knute = Nott = Chroud (old Germanic word for noble). Likewise, it appears plausible that Chr-oat/Croat = Chroud/ Nott/ Knute.
​

In this way, I think the above evidence shows a significant linguistic/ etymological /phonetic connection with the arguably Illyrian ethnographic term Hrvat/ Croat. This linguistic relationship, in turn, might also indicate/ track the diaspora or the presence of the original (Illyrian) Haplgroup I - that bear the name Croat/ Hrvat.

Lastly, I wish to reiterate, this is only a theory, but I feel the evidence supporting it is significantly valid and mounting...

 

[Templar]

Indeed, the Balkan regions have some of the lowest concentrations of Ra haplogroups

Yes but in Croatia specifically, r1a is fairly high. R1a in Croatia is at 24%.

 

[MOESAN]

Thanks for your reply Moesan !

I put the Clarissant terms in italic (inclined) letters -
​

Thanks too for your proper kind answer – some remarks:​

you write: [«However, the Croats have one of the highest concentrations of haplogroup I (i.e. an indigenous, Old Europe haplogroup), which is also found in very high concentrations in Scandinavia and other so-called "Germanic" nations. Albeit, they are different subclades, however, they do share an ancestry.»] - OK, different Y-I's but a common origin: so Sardinians, old- or pre-Basques, Germanics and Kurds have in common a remote «hroat» origin? Hroat is a recent emergence in History – there is no accord concerning the origin pf their name (iranian, illyrian-thracian, slavic ...) and even the date of its first appearence is unprecise for me: 7° to 10° century?) - all the way after the 600's!your [«And the proliferation of Croat/ Hrvat derived names are relatively abundant, widespread and phonetically identical, (and at times even display identical etymological roots too), that it would be intellectually dishonest, I think, to pass off these variants as mere "coincidence" i.e. they are not etymologically/ ethnographically/ linguistically related. «]is a completely personal bet or hope: the very problem is that you put in the same bag all these names and base your reasoning on their presumed common origin without proving it – (a detail: Hvetlanda/ Vetlanda in swede languages is surely enough something like «white-land» and nothing else, or you have to prove it was °°Hrvetlanda before...) -​

I never spoke of Y-DNA HGs in my post, for I know (albeit Azlheimer access: joke!); I spoke of 2 SEPARATE sounds 'R' in a lot of the (garmanic) surnames you put as possible cognates for a *Hroat prototype or a close form – I know the today Croat people is regionally heterogenous (compare Dalmatians to northern Croatinas, by instance) and everyplace a mix of «autochtonous» people and Slavs (and others) arrived later – it is true the 24% Y-R1a of total Croatia is not a great score (compared to 29,5% in Hungary, 25,5% in Norway, more than 20% in northern and eastern Germany) but nobody (sensible!) never said Croats were «pure» Slavs! And the sort of Y-R1a they have is not the same as the one Norwegians have, what can be added to the differences concerning the diverses Y-I in all these populations... But hre I agree with you the current linguistic affiliation of a today nation does not totally reflect its real and complete ethnic and genetic background: ouf! -​

[«... indeed, these Hrvat/ Croat variant names are diffused throughout Europe, be it traditionally Celtic/ Germanic/ Slavic/ Finno-Ugaric etc nations and regions.»] + [«Another interesting fact that elucidates my argument is that the Dalmatians of Illyria/ Balkans originally spoke a Romance language, not a Slavic language, which was similar to French and Latin. The last person to speak that Romance Dalmatian language passed away at the turn of the 20th Century»]​

you are going very far here, I think – and so? A proto-I-E or even pre-I-E tribe name??? and was a romance language spoken by all the inhabitants of Dalmatia? I doubt it – not slavic maybe but only of latin origin ??? all the way this argument does not bring any clarification in this «debate» ony the fact that non-slavic languages were spoken in SW-Croatia before Slavs -​

[«... various regions spoke Italian, and even German too. Thus, the wholesale appropriation of a Slavic language within Illyria/ Balkans appears to be a comparatively recent phenomenon: similar to the experience of the people of Alsace/ Lorraine - for they spoke either German or French (or both), depending on the politics and redrawn border lines of the day. In this way, it is remiss to superimpose a Slavic ethnographic/ linguistic label on the Illyrian word Hrvat/ Croat.»] - ​

are you so sure? So recent? I think the slavic language is old enough (7° Century?) in these regions and for Alsace-Lorraine your completely mistake: the germanic language took place there about the 5° century upon a celtic substrata (romanized: gallo-roman) – french language never replaced germanic dialectal language in Alsace before modern times!!! (the same in northern Lorraine) – the alsacian and thiois dialects are descendants of alemannic and frankic languages and their isoglosses show a permanent contact with the neighbouring luxemburgian, german and swiss alemannic dialects since the origins -​

The origin and date of the name for Balkans is out of the present discussion: it is just an a geographic tool -​

["According to the etymologist, E. Forstemann, the Gothic root "Hroth!" had various forms such as Hruad, Hruat, Hroad, Hruot, and Chrout."]

["During the time of 10th century Croatian King Stephen Držislav there is a Royal Inscription which in Latin reads "Dux Hroator" - "Duke of the Croats".']​

Yes, and what? - Hrod and its diphtongued variants is a germanic word meaning «famous» or «noble» (Hrod-ric, Ruaric(?), Rodrigo... + Hrod-gari, Rodger, Roger, Ruediger...) - is this phonetic proximity a proof? Just a possibility; without any other element it stays very tiny – have we here a proved «familial» link between Hruat/.../... and Hroator except ressemblance? In France we have the personal name Morvan, Brittany, breton 'mor-man' and the region name Morvan, Burgundy, apparently without any link + breton surname Le Bras ('bras' : «great», «big») and french Bras («arm»)!​

[. Any etymologist worth his salt can see the Germanic term "Hroad" and Illyrian/ Croatian term "Hroat" are etymologically related and interchangeable; indeed, the letter 'd' and 't' are almost phonetically identical and routinely interchanged/ used by historical scribes.] ​

scribes could sometimes interchange T and D but it was not the rule, these hesitations rather marked a period of phonetical evolution not taken in account at first but after some times one letter was chosen and became stable: in germanic the final result was D or 'DH' (english 'dh') (and here we have a final position in word which can be of some importance) – the permutation of D and T was not the rule: about Croats namings we find everytime a T, even between vowels – If I am wrong (it can occur) have you spellings for well identified Croats or Hrvats or what you prefer with a D in them? And ONE syllabe pronounciations?
​

concerning Knut/Canut and Hlod I repeat they do'nt have for me any link

concerning Illyrians, they are very often more a smoke cloud than a reality, the term covered, helas, a lot of different ehtnies or tribes (even if all of them of I-Ean stock)

when you speak about «germanics», you envolve people names of very different periods, what could be mistaking too


to conclude I find interesting your researches for explanations and historial links between diverse populations – but I find hazardous the accumulation of unlinked elements gathered in unlike periods – but if you find other elements?

 

[Clarissant]

Yes but in Croatia specifically, r1a is fairly high. R1a in Croatia is at 24%.

Thanks for your reply Templar

As I understand, Croats in Bosnia Herzegovina and Croats in Dalmatia (located in Croatia) have the highest Haplogroup I concentrations worldwide i.e. 60 - 73 % . And it's helpful to remember that present national boundaries are not the boundaries of the past, nor do these present borders align to ethnographic demarcations. So, if we define the term "Croatia" as meaning a region containing high numbers of "Croats", it most probably does not look anything like the current official map.

Also, the 24% Ra figure for Croatia is comparatively low for a "Slavic" country. In fact, it's even lower than some Scandinavian/ Germanic countries. Furthermore, some other Balkan countries have even lower concentrations of Ra, such as B-H & Serbia. (I did make the note that it would be useful to also study B-H & Serbian analogous names too, as I believe these regions [including Greece] share a common ancient ancestry & ancient culture). Another important note is that Hungary, which speaks a Finno-Ugaric language, has a Ra concentration over 50%. So, perhaps then, the 24% Ra figure for Croatia reflects the more northerly populations/ regions of Croatia that have an overlap with Hungarian populations (NB Hungary/ Austria/ Croatia have redrawn their borders numerous times). In this way, I think it would be more accurate to take the Dalmatian Croat & B-H Croat haplogroup I figures as being more indicative of ancient Croatian populations. Especially considering that the first "Croatian" nobles had their Adriatic Sea port capital in Dalmatia, not Zagreb, (which is located closer to Hungary).

However, perhaps Croats with Ra and I haplogroups always had inextricably interwoven histories, in which case, perhaps Croat names dispersed throughout Europe would reflect both Ra & I haplogroups? In either case, I think it would make an interesting study.

___________________________________________________________

Moesan, you stated, "...but I find hazardous the accumulation of unlinked elements gathered in unlike periods...".

Yes, I agree with you Moesan, your criticism is deserved. This information is at 'raw data' stage. It will take more detailed analysis and greater raw data to assess the validity of the outlined premise.

Cheers,

 

[Clarissant]

Furthermore to the discussion, I thought I'd add this intriguing snippet of data to the mix:

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths

"A compound name, Gut-þiuda, at root the "Gothic people", appears in the Gothic Calendar (aikklesjons fullaizos ana gutþiudai gabrannidai). Parallel occurrences indicate that it may mean "country of the Goths": Old Icelandic Sui-þjòd, "Sweden"; Old English Angel-þēod, "Anglia"; Old Irish Cruithen-tuath, "country of the Picts".<sup>[13]"

Question:</sup>

Does the Old Irish name "Cruithen-tuath" (which was also the name the Picts called themselves according to "The Celtic Revolution: A Study in anti-imperialism" by Peter Berresford Ellis, p. 30) equate to Gothic people too i.e. Croat-en people? Thus, were proto-Celts also a derivative of the Goths/ Croats/ Illyrians (i.e. haplogroup I Illyrians - and possibly even to a lesser degree haplogroup Ra Sarmatians/ proto-Slavic people)?

It seems to be possible when considering the previous evidence...
[h=1][/h]

 

[gyms]

Croatia in the union with Hungary
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia_in_the_union_with_Hungary

Little is clear-cut about Croatia’s history -- uncertain origins and crisscrossing allegiances abound. Even today, many details of Croatia’s emergence as a nation are still shrouded in mystery. For example, historians disagree on the genesis of the earliest tribes of Croats. Were they really Slavic and, if so, how closely related to other Slavic groups? How did they come to occupy the land that we now call Croatia? Further down the timeline, Croatian history becomes an even more complicated algorithm of shifting ethnic and national identities. Admitting these uncertainties, there are still a few key developments to keep in mind when trying to make sense of Croatia’s past.

http://www.travelchannel.com/destinations/croatia/articles/crash-course-in-croatias-history

 

[Clarissant]

Croatia in the union with Hungary
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia_in_the_union_with_Hungary

Little is clear-cut about Croatia’s history -- uncertain origins and crisscrossing allegiances abound. Even today, many details of Croatia’s emergence as a nation are still shrouded in mystery. For example, historians disagree on the genesis of the earliest tribes of Croats. Were they really Slavic and, if so, how closely related to other Slavic groups? How did they come to occupy the land that we now call Croatia? Further down the timeline, Croatian history becomes an even more complicated algorithm of shifting ethnic and national identities. Admitting these uncertainties, there are still a few key developments to keep in mind when trying to make sense of Croatia’s past.

http://www.travelchannel.com/destinations/croatia/articles/crash-course-in-croatias-history

Thanks for your reply Gyms

Please review this webpage and note the many Gothic references in relation to Croats:http://croatiansurnames.blogspot.com.au/

"...todays Croats/Hrvati are etymologically connected to the areas in and around the Carpathian mountains from centuries before any European Slavic languages were recognized or called as such, a continuum showing the origins of perhaps the first specific Slavic speaking nation." i.e. This area was called Harvada (similar to Hrvata/ Croatian).

Perhaps, there are Bosnian/ Serb surnames that also correlate with Haplogroup I. Indeed, traditional Irish Gaelic surnames in the Connaught (i.e. viking Knute/ Notte?) have Haplogroup I lineage and so too Gaelic Scottish highland surnames: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Highlands & http://www.insideireland.com/sample19.htm . NB Note too that "Gaelic" is also a relative common lastname in Croatia.

 

[Garrick]

Thanks for your reply Gyms

Please review this webpage and note the many Gothic references in relation to Croats:http://croatiansurnames.blogspot.com.au/

"...todays Croats/Hrvati are etymologically connected to the areas in and around the Carpathian mountains from centuries before any European Slavic languages were recognized or called as such, a continuum showing the origins of perhaps the first specific Slavic speaking nation." i.e. This area was called Harvada (similar to Hrvata/ Croatian).

Perhaps, there are Bosnian/ Serb surnames that also correlate with Haplogroup I. Indeed, traditional Irish Gaelic surnames in the Connaught (i.e. viking Knute/ Notte?) have Haplogroup I lineage and so too Gaelic Scottish highland surnames: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Highlands & http://www.insideireland.com/sample19.htm . NB Note too that "Gaelic" is also a relative common lastname in Croatia.

Interesting topic. Serbs have a lot of surnames Gocić, Gecić, Gatić, Gutić, Galić, etc. I didn't research their origin.

 

[gyms]

Very popular surname and place name in Hungary too.

Gallus,Gál, Gaal, Gaál, Gálos, Gálocs, Gálffy, Galló, Gajó...

 

[Clarissant]

Interesting topic. Serbs have a lot of surnames Gocić, Gecić, Gatić, Gutić, Galić, etc. I didn't research their origin.

Thanks for your reply Garrick

Great list...I would like to know whether these names you listed equate with Gothic, Gaelic or Haplogroup I....I think there is a very strong possibility...

 

[Clarissant]

Very popular surname and place name in Hungary too.

Gallus,Gál, Gaal, Gaál, Gálos, Gálocs, Gálffy, Galló, Gajó...

Very interesting list Gyms, cheers

Hungary mainly contains haplogroup Ra...I wonder if these names correlate with Haplogroup I, Haplogroup Ra or both....any idea??

Lastly, here's another insightful quote from http://croatiansurnames.blogspot.com.au/ :

' The following information shows how the very name of today's 'Croats/Croat' [the autonyms of Hrvati/Hrvat] came into existence. This excerpt from croatianearlyhistory.blogspot.ca will also shed more light and correlate historical sources as well as the linear onomastic markers in relation to the above map.......

".....The matter on the Gothic wars with the Huns is of considerable age, and is based on events from the early or mid-4th century that were transmitted for almost 1000 years. It is a testimony to its great age that names appear in genuinely Germanic forms and the at the time current local form variant, not in any form remotely influenced by Latin, which they did not know. Names for Goths appear that stopped being used after 390, such as Grýting (Ostrogoth, cf. the Latin form Greutungi) and Tyrfing (Visigoth, cf. the Latin form Tervingi). They comprise for instance a form of the name for the Carpathians which most scholars agree is "a relic of extremely ancient tradition and the events take place where the Goths and Croats (Hrvati-Horvati) lived during their wars with the Huns.The Gothic capital Arheimar is located on the Dniepr (...á Danparstöðum á þeim bæ, er Árheimar heita.. Heiðrek dies in the Harvatya (...und Harvaða fjöllum...) and the Battle with the Huns takes place on the plains of the Danube (...á vígvöll á Dúnheiði í Dylgjudölum). The mythical Mirkwood [Croatian: Mrk = "dark" also]...which separates the Goths from the Huns, appears to correspond to Maeotian marshes......." The place name Árheimar has been connected to the name Oium by both Heinzel and Schütte, originally spelled as 'Harvaða' using the phoneme feature of eth. (Later through Slavic liquid metathesis and other onomastic based versions, 'Horvati/Hrovati' would also be written as a manifestation of the same identification continuum, such as the equivalent match centuries later in Nestor's Primary Chronicle, [Хoървати/Horvati] or in Greek from Emperor Constantine's 'De Administrando Imperio' [Χρωβάτοι/Hrovatoi]...etc)


In the footnotes to 'The Saga of Hervör and Heiðrek', Nora Kershaw translates from the oldest sources available, which were written in Old Icelandic, aka 'Old Norse'. She adds that 'Wendeland', i.e. the 'Land of the Slavs (from Veneti), after the expansion of the Slavs from the fifth century onwards especially, this term came to denote an enormous expanse of country, including the coast of Eastern Germany. In much earlier times however, when the Goths still occupied Poland and Galicia, the Slavs were restricted to the regions east of these countries. Regarding the 'Mountains of Harvathi', she writes...It is believed by scholars that 'Harvathi' is the much earlier Teutonic name for the Carpathians—so clearly a reminiscence of Gothic times. The Russian-German scholar F.A. Braun in the name Harvata also saw 'Harvaða fjöllum' from Hervarar saga ok Heiðreks as what would be an early Germanic name form of the Carpathian Mountains. The old Gothic word 'Har' meaning 'heights/tall/high/lofty/highness', just as 'Har' in Icelandic even today. (Gothic: Harvathi/Latin: Carpathi) This would indicate early arriving populations of Veneti-Slavs continuing to use this ethnonym from even before the early common era, and so well before the later generic group ethno-term of 'Slavs' became the common form in usage from the 6th century onwards for the people and language group. (This very evident source of information would seem to explain the genesis of the Croatian ethnonym to a very large degree, and it shows that Croats/Hrvati are directly related to the first appearances of Slavs and Slavic language into central Europe, all pointing towards an early, long and steady process. (This can also be deduced by the self-evident reasoning and simple facts of linear onymic markers, ie: if the early Croats (Veneti-Slavs) had instead arrived to central Europe only after the 4th-5th centuries, then "Harvati/Hrvati" would already be just a long forgotten, unused and unknown relic of history. If the above was not so, then the early Croats would have gone on to instead be known as the 'C(a)rpati' instead of 'H(a)rvati')

Using the oldest and most accurate Icelandic text sources, the 'Saga of King Heiðrek the Wise' which is also found in the 'Hervarar saga', was translated again by the academic Christopher Tolkien in 1960. In his Introduction, Notes and Appendices he also goes on to comment that...

...'The most remarkable of the place-names of this part of the saga is perhaps 'Harvaða fjöll', ...that must be among the most extraordinary fossils in the whole range of Old-Norse...I think, that Harvaða- is the same name in origin as 'Carpathians'. Since this name in it's Germanic form is found nowhere else at all, it must be a relic of extremely ancient tradition, one can hardly conclude otherwise than that these four lines are a fragment of a lost poem (presumably on the subject of Heidrek's death against the Huns) that preserved names reaching back to the early common era of central and south-eastern Europe, when the Gothic empire reached from the Baltic to the Black Sea'. Tolkien also comments that this name and phrase 'undir Harvaða fjöllum' (beneath the mountains of Harvathi) had crossed thousands of miles to Iceland and then had been preserved in fossilized form in heroic poetry that told the story of the battle between the Goths and Huns, and that it was evidently originally composed in Gothic.

(From a personal observation, based on the sources and information shown so far, even just the 2 examples shown above about the connection to the Carpathians and the time periods involved, it seems that this ancient relic term 'Harvaða' that was written in the old poetic sagas is not just a pin in a haystack, but rather more like a small diamond in a haystack. A haystack found not close to the nearby barn either, but in a haystack found beyond the mountain range far off in the distance. An important and very fortuitous anomaly from the early common era movement of peoples matrix. A pretty accurate analogy I think, and quite amazing. Early Croatian history (Hrvatski povijest) just like the rest of early Slavic history in general, really doesn't have much, if any, recorded history that was written by us, but rather by surrounding peoples and their authors. (Greek, Roman, Germanic...) Events in those areas of Europe and in those early common era times were moving so quickly and erratically that they were more concerned with just existing and surviving. However very, very fortunately other people did record names, events and places. All this centuries before the generic term 'Slav' came into existence in written sources. This is what makes the above information truly a diamond in a far off haystack. Seemingly almost insignificant at first to an unaware casual reader, 'undir Harvaða fjöllum' combined with the other written sources, tells us where, how, why and importantly..when. It correlates to the lands later recorded as 'Great and White Croatia' in other language sources, it verifies onomastic continuity, it proves that the early Veneti-Slavs in the early common era of central/northern Europe were the original 'Croats/Hrvati', who later went on to eventually found early states after migrating towards the Adriatic).'

 

[ukaj]

Very interesting list Gyms, cheers

Hungary mainly contains haplogroup Ra...I wonder if these names correlate with Haplogroup I, Haplogroup Ra or both....any idea??

Lastly, here's another insightful quote from http://croatiansurnames.blogspot.com.au/ :

' The following information shows how the very name of today's 'Croats/Croat' [the autonyms of Hrvati/Hrvat] came into existence. This excerpt from croatianearlyhistory.blogspot.ca will also shed more light and correlate historical sources as well as the linear onomastic markers in relation to the above map.......

".....The matter on the Gothic wars with the Huns is of considerable age, and is based on events from the early or mid-4th century that were transmitted for almost 1000 years. It is a testimony to its great age that names appear in genuinely Germanic forms and the at the time current local form variant, not in any form remotely influenced by Latin, which they did not know. Names for Goths appear that stopped being used after 390, such as Grýting (Ostrogoth, cf. the Latin form Greutungi) and Tyrfing (Visigoth, cf. the Latin form Tervingi). They comprise for instance a form of the name for the Carpathians which most scholars agree is "a relic of extremely ancient tradition and the events take place where the Goths and Croats (Hrvati-Horvati) lived during their wars with the Huns.The Gothic capital Arheimar is located on the Dniepr (...á Danparstöðum á þeim bæ, er Árheimar heita.. Heiðrek dies in the Harvatya (...und Harvaða fjöllum...) and the Battle with the Huns takes place on the plains of the Danube (...á vígvöll á Dúnheiði í Dylgjudölum). The mythical Mirkwood [Croatian: Mrk = "dark" also]...which separates the Goths from the Huns, appears to correspond to Maeotian marshes......." The place name Árheimar has been connected to the name Oium by both Heinzel and Schütte, originally spelled as 'Harvaða' using the phoneme feature of eth. (Later through Slavic liquid metathesis and other onomastic based versions, 'Horvati/Hrovati' would also be written as a manifestation of the same identification continuum, such as the equivalent match centuries later in Nestor's Primary Chronicle, [Хoървати/Horvati] or in Greek from Emperor Constantine's 'De Administrando Imperio' [Χρωβάτοι/Hrovatoi]...etc)


In the footnotes to 'The Saga of Hervör and Heiðrek', Nora Kershaw translates from the oldest sources available, which were written in Old Icelandic, aka 'Old Norse'. She adds that 'Wendeland', i.e. the 'Land of the Slavs (from Veneti), after the expansion of the Slavs from the fifth century onwards especially, this term came to denote an enormous expanse of country, including the coast of Eastern Germany. In much earlier times however, when the Goths still occupied Poland and Galicia, the Slavs were restricted to the regions east of these countries. Regarding the 'Mountains of Harvathi', she writes...It is believed by scholars that 'Harvathi' is the much earlier Teutonic name for the Carpathians—so clearly a reminiscence of Gothic times. The Russian-German scholar F.A. Braun in the name Harvata also saw 'Harvaða fjöllum' from Hervarar saga ok Heiðreks as what would be an early Germanic name form of the Carpathian Mountains. The old Gothic word 'Har' meaning 'heights/tall/high/lofty/highness', just as 'Har' in Icelandic even today. (Gothic: Harvathi/Latin: Carpathi) This would indicate early arriving populations of Veneti-Slavs continuing to use this ethnonym from even before the early common era, and so well before the later generic group ethno-term of 'Slavs' became the common form in usage from the 6th century onwards for the people and language group. (This very evident source of information would seem to explain the genesis of the Croatian ethnonym to a very large degree, and it shows that Croats/Hrvati are directly related to the first appearances of Slavs and Slavic language into central Europe, all pointing towards an early, long and steady process. (This can also be deduced by the self-evident reasoning and simple facts of linear onymic markers, ie: if the early Croats (Veneti-Slavs) had instead arrived to central Europe only after the 4th-5th centuries, then "Harvati/Hrvati" would already be just a long forgotten, unused and unknown relic of history. If the above was not so, then the early Croats would have gone on to instead be known as the 'C(a)rpati' instead of 'H(a)rvati')

Using the oldest and most accurate Icelandic text sources, the 'Saga of King Heiðrek the Wise' which is also found in the 'Hervarar saga', was translated again by the academic Christopher Tolkien in 1960. In his Introduction, Notes and Appendices he also goes on to comment that...

...'The most remarkable of the place-names of this part of the saga is perhaps 'Harvaða fjöll', ...that must be among the most extraordinary fossils in the whole range of Old-Norse...I think, that Harvaða- is the same name in origin as 'Carpathians'. Since this name in it's Germanic form is found nowhere else at all, it must be a relic of extremely ancient tradition, one can hardly conclude otherwise than that these four lines are a fragment of a lost poem (presumably on the subject of Heidrek's death against the Huns) that preserved names reaching back to the early common era of central and south-eastern Europe, when the Gothic empire reached from the Baltic to the Black Sea'. Tolkien also comments that this name and phrase 'undir Harvaða fjöllum' (beneath the mountains of Harvathi) had crossed thousands of miles to Iceland and then had been preserved in fossilized form in heroic poetry that told the story of the battle between the Goths and Huns, and that it was evidently originally composed in Gothic.

(From a personal observation, based on the sources and information shown so far, even just the 2 examples shown above about the connection to the Carpathians and the time periods involved, it seems that this ancient relic term 'Harvaða' that was written in the old poetic sagas is not just a pin in a haystack, but rather more like a small diamond in a haystack. A haystack found not close to the nearby barn either, but in a haystack found beyond the mountain range far off in the distance. An important and very fortuitous anomaly from the early common era movement of peoples matrix. A pretty accurate analogy I think, and quite amazing. Early Croatian history (Hrvatski povijest) just like the rest of early Slavic history in general, really doesn't have much, if any, recorded history that was written by us, but rather by surrounding peoples and their authors. (Greek, Roman, Germanic...) Events in those areas of Europe and in those early common era times were moving so quickly and erratically that they were more concerned with just existing and surviving. However very, very fortunately other people did record names, events and places. All this centuries before the generic term 'Slav' came into existence in written sources. This is what makes the above information truly a diamond in a far off haystack. Seemingly almost insignificant at first to an unaware casual reader, 'undir Harvaða fjöllum' combined with the other written sources, tells us where, how, why and importantly..when. It correlates to the lands later recorded as 'Great and White Croatia' in other language sources, it verifies onomastic continuity, it proves that the early Veneti-Slavs in the early common era of central/northern Europe were the original 'Croats/Hrvati', who later went on to eventually found early states after migrating towards the Adriatic).'

The origin of the name Serb from an Indo European root seems incredible. Serbian toponyms in their homeland in Caucasus are often remote to Slavic tongues.

Azerbaijan Ser-Abad : Serboi Greek reading.

Both names Serboi earlier Sabar and Hrvat (Croat) earlier Havar, Avar seem to have originated in the shores of the Caspian Sea. The forefathers of Serbs and Croats were not Indo European but Caucasian.
The names of Asian tribes Sabar and Kavar (*Havar) Avar derived from the same root [common shift b > v, also allophones s/ h].

Serbs (*Sabar) and Croats (Hrvat) were Avar tribes which Magyar sources essentially call Kabar and Kavar.

The remnant of Sabar, Avar excellent horsemanship in Turkish language was stamped in the cognate: tr. süvari ' cavalier, cavalry, cavalryman, chevalier, mounted troops, man'. Clearly the origin of Serbs and Croats is not Indo European. Although they adopted the language of their slaves, the Sabar and Avar overlords preserved their original name. Franks, a Germanic tribe who had conquered Gaul also lost its ancient language against numerically superior native population.

 

[Clarissant]

The origin of the name Serb from an Indo European root seems incredible. Serbian toponyms in their homeland in Caucasus are often remote to Slavic tongues.

Azerbaijan Ser-Abad : Serboi Greek reading.

Both names Serboi earlier Sabar and Hrvat (Croat) earlier Havar, Avar seem to have originated in the shores of the Caspian Sea. The forefathers of Serbs and Croats were not Indo European but Caucasian.
The names of Asian tribes Sabar and Kavar (*Havar) Avar derived from the same root [common shift b > v, also allophones s/ h].

Serbs (*Sabar) and Croats (Hrvat) were Avar tribes which Magyar sources essentially call Kabar and Kavar.

The remnant of Sabar, Avar excellent horsemanship in Turkish language was stamped in the cognate: tr. süvari ' cavalier, cavalry, cavalryman, chevalier, mounted troops, man'. Clearly the origin of Serbs and Croats is not Indo European. Although they adopted the language of their slaves, the Sabar and Avar overlords preserved their original name. Franks, a Germanic tribe who had conquered Gaul also lost its ancient language against numerically superior native population.

Thanks for your reply Ukaj

I do know that Haplogroup I is indigenous to Europe (mainly Scandinavia, Sardinia and especially the Illyrian region). It is also closely related to Haplogroup J and thus neither Aryan nor Indo-European. As for being Avar, I think the Haplogroup I predates that constructed ethnicity.