that is true, their genes are still living there, in fact, they were living in my native place.
Is Turkey a Western country ?
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that is true, their genes are still living there, in fact, they were living in my native place.
Yorkie
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No. Turkey is something we English eat at Christmas. Only joking...
The above poster is correct re the Celtic influence.
The above poster is correct re the Celtic influence.
http://www.galloturca.com/galatlar_files/galatca.htmGalatian words via Turkish-Irish Cognates (scroll down in the page)
http://www.galloturca.com/galatlar.htm galatian music
http://www.galloturca.com/galatlar_files/yaraligalat.htm wounded galatian
http://ancient-anatolia.blogspot.com/2007/04/galatia-celtic-anatolia.html brief info.
http://www.galloturca.com/galatlar.htm galatian music
http://www.galloturca.com/galatlar_files/yaraligalat.htm wounded galatian
http://ancient-anatolia.blogspot.com/2007/04/galatia-celtic-anatolia.html brief info.
Spion Stirlitz
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I recue this thread from the second or third page...
I waited 2 years until the reality (and gravity) put the things where they fit... an some people too.
Now, finally, the Turkish reality cannot be overlooked so easily... and Turkey has to be recognized as the nascient modern power it is... a nascient power, because it does not turned its back to its authenticity... but quite the contrary, despite all the vitriol and racism of some marginal people, that were really not relevant to the discussion.
Finally, the Europeans recognize, that Turkey has gone... no longer will be used as a "ghost" to scare Europeans with morbid phantasies about "Islamisation", and push racist rightwing agendas... but it goes great and with a bright future ahead... as its people, much less corrupted than some, in some other places, rightly deserves... an old country, that looks new...
It really worthed to wait.
http://www.politik.de/forum/mittelmeer/230752-die.html
After all, there is Justice in this world.
I waited 2 years until the reality (and gravity) put the things where they fit... an some people too.
Now, finally, the Turkish reality cannot be overlooked so easily... and Turkey has to be recognized as the nascient modern power it is... a nascient power, because it does not turned its back to its authenticity... but quite the contrary, despite all the vitriol and racism of some marginal people, that were really not relevant to the discussion.
Finally, the Europeans recognize, that Turkey has gone... no longer will be used as a "ghost" to scare Europeans with morbid phantasies about "Islamisation", and push racist rightwing agendas... but it goes great and with a bright future ahead... as its people, much less corrupted than some, in some other places, rightly deserves... an old country, that looks new...
It really worthed to wait.
Zu Füßen des Halbmonds
Die Türkei als Vorbild
Die Türkei prosperiert.
Quelle: dennis and aimee jonez
von Alexander Görlach (The European)
09.06.2011
Die Türkei hat gewählt. Nicht ihre neue Regierung, das geschieht erst am Sonntag. Das Land am Bosporus hat seine Richtung gewählt – und die geht weg von Europa. Gleich westlich von Konstantinopel beginnt die alte Welt, die krisengebeutelt ist: Ihrer Währung geht es schlecht, ihre politischen Strukturen sind schwerfällig, ihr fehlt eine gemeinsame Ausrichtung in wichtigen Fragen, ihre Bevölkerung ist überaltert.
Die Türkei hingegen prosperiert, in den Metropolen Istanbul und Ankara sowieso, aber auch die viel geschmähten anatolischen Nester sind über Satellitenfernsehen mit der gesamten Welt verbunden und haben Anschluss an die Entwicklung in ihrem Land erhalten. Alle schauen sie fern, sie sehen die Nachrichten aus dem fernen Europa und reiben sich die Augen, warum in Allahs Namen man in dem Laden einmal Mitglied sein wollte.
Nur eine Gespensterdebatte
Die Debatte über Europa als Christenclub, der die islamische Türkei nicht in seine Reihen aufnehmen wolle, ist deshalb mittlerweile eine Gespensterdebatte. Der herablassende Blick auf die Türken, die gerade in Deutschland gerne mal als das Allerletzte gesehen und auch so behandelt wurden, kehrt sich langsam um.
Wir müssen anerkennen: Da ist ein aufstrebendes, junges Land mit einer unternehmerisch veranlagten neuen Generation, die optimistisch in die Ferne blickt. Das Land hat ein gut funktionierendes Gesundheitssystem, das ein gewisser US-Präsident Obama gerne für seinen Staat hätte. Das Land sieht sich als starken Player in der Region, der ein eigenes Modell ist für viele Länder in der islamischen Welt. Warum ein Anhängsel an Europa sein?
Vorteil Demografie
Nun, ein Anhängsel wäre die Türkei nicht. Aktuell hat die Türkei 78 Millionen Einwohner, bis 2047 wird die Bevölkerung auf geschätzte 88 Millionen anwachsen – während hierzulande die Bevölkerung weiter schrumpft. Wer kann sich denn in Europa eine Union vorstellen, in der die Türken aufgrund ihrer Bevölkerungsstärke und Wirtschaftskraft alle Gremien bestimmen und darin dominieren? Keiner!
Nur sagt es in Brüssel niemand. Die Türkei ist stark, sie ist groß. Ihre eigenen Interessen sind vielfältig und – aufgrund ihrer Lage und ihres Einflusses auf die Region, die sie umgibt – verschieden von denen der Europäischen Union. Ganz egal, ob das alles Muslime sind oder nicht, an der Stelle ist das nicht das entscheidende Argument.
Haben die EU und die Türkei nun nichts mehr aneinander? Doch, auf jeden Fall! Die Türkei hat ihre Modernisierung wegen der EU begonnen. Die politische Führung unter dem derzeitigen Regierungschef Erdogan hat den EU-Kurs bewusst genutzt, um die Modernisierung des Landes zu steuern. Die EU war das Rollenmodell der Türkei. Sie wird es in manchen Fragen bleiben: Unabhängigkeit der Gerichte, Menschenrechte.
Wir begegnen uns nun auf Augenhöhe, wir können gemeinsam Zukunft gestalten. Je mehr Player international die Agenda setzen, wirtschaftliche Kraft entfalten und Modelle des guten Zusammenlebens von Menschen anbieten können, umso besser. Alles, was einen aufkeimenden Uni- oder Bilateralismus im 21. Jahrhundert verhindern kann, kann nur von absolutem Vorteil sein. Wenn die EU hier in einigen Jahrzehnten als Akteur noch mitspielen will, muss sie jetzt bei denen in die Lehre gehen, auf die sie so gern herabgeschaut hat.
Dieser Kommentar ist bereits bei unserem Partner The European erschienen.
http://www.politik.de/forum/mittelmeer/230752-die.html
After all, there is Justice in this world.
Spion Stirlitz
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Uh!!
I really do not live in "Berlin Kreuzberg" but in Mexico City.
(I don't want the coincidence be missinterpreted).
I do not longer need this account.
Have a nice day.
Thanks.
I really do not live in "Berlin Kreuzberg" but in Mexico City.
(I don't want the coincidence be missinterpreted).
I do not longer need this account.
Have a nice day.
Thanks.
Cimmerianbloke
Elite member
Well, my friend, I happen to live in Neukölln, 3 U-Bahn stations from Kreuzberg, and all I can say is that your article is BS, I invite you to come to Neukölln anytime to see that islamization is happening and well under way. Turkey and Europe do not share the same values and are therefore uncompatible. Since it is the migrant's obligation to adapt to his/her host country, I do not see why Europeans should have to tolerate their way of life being endangered by a radicaly alien culture. No right-wing extremism here, I only wish I could walk down the street and not feel I am in the middle-east...
On another hand, Europe needs Turkey like a hole in the head, due to the current economic problem we experience ( and very likely continue to experience for another pair of decades...).
On another hand, Europe needs Turkey like a hole in the head, due to the current economic problem we experience ( and very likely continue to experience for another pair of decades...).
Mzungu mchagga
aimless wanderer
Boddinstaße or Leinestraße?
On the other hand, in which Middle Eastern town can you walk around during day with a bottle of beer in your hand, and let the dogs poo where ever they want? It is a mixture of both, hyper-traditional Muslims and all the dirt and noise in Neukölln (also from young party folks), that lets other Turk and Arab families with good income and education move out of this area, especially to Tempelhof. In the north of Berlin people mass-migrate from Wedding to Reinickendorf.
When people think about foreigners in Germany, they usually focus on problem areas and usually exclude success areas. The usual stereotypes are:
immigrants = crime/Quran/low education
middle class/higher education = German (or Western European) only
I live in Tempelhof and the number of people with immigration background here is increasing steadily. These are middle class people, educated and with good German knowledge, who's children go to university or do an apprenticeship. The women all go to work, usually don't wear a veil, and if they do, they still go to work.
The sad thing about it is, that nobody, I say nobody, really takes this into account. It is simply not what people do associate with. What upsets me very much is that even though Berlin always tries to pretend to be very tolerant towards all groups of people -see all the magazines and advertisments- it makes very much use of these stereotypes itself. If you are not a young unconventional hipster/bohème/rebel, or misunderstood teen, or the evil Nazi/Capitalist/German petit bourgeois, then you are pretty much not of interest anymore. A person with immigration background, who goes to work, makes no trouble, has a beautiful family, but makes no arts and doesn't rebel against society, is simply not of interest in Berlin...
The main point I want to make here is that we shouldn't focus too much on extremes, but see things more realistically, how they really are. Same applies to the fear or admiration of Turkey. It is neither our threat, nor is it our savior in the future. People should stop exagerating!
Spion Stirlitz
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"Islamization" is a theme of which I really know nothing. I trend to see the thing mostly as a problem of immigration and integration, solely. Not as a "clash of civilizations".
However, what I know is that the theme "Turkey" is different from the theme "turkish immigrants in Germany". By the way, it is something with little resemblance to similar problems that happen in the New World. Precisely are Turks of now the third generation, whose integration to Germany still be seen as "doubtful".
However, most Turks that I happen to meet in the Internet seem to be highly intelligent and concious.
Mmmm... What do you think about this cartoon?...
Well... fortunately for Turkey, it did not enter the EU, so it cannot be blamed about it.
The current financial crisis means that Turkey very likely will have even less chance to enter in the medium term, or maybe never.
However, I remark that although the currente economic crisis of Europe does affect Turkey, currently is Turkey growing fast, developing fast and looking with a very bright future.
This is something some Europeans will never be able to see.
Regards.
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albanopolis
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Albania western country? Since I am a full fledged citizen of Albania I can tell you that Albania is not a western country. We aspire to become one, but we are not there yet. Being western is not geography alone, its the culture and the way of thinking, the way of life. Albanian social behavier is as oriental as it can get. Go to Albania and talk about gays and lesbians and see how we behave crazy. Turkey does have a distant western origin. Kostantinopol used to be the pride of the western civilisation. Until the otomans came. Now Turkey is the heart of orient. I dont think they aspire to westernise. They want to join the EU, but as an Islamic country, for economical and security reasons. They have no intentions of embracing western liberalism of gender freedom and equality. It will stay like that as long as minarets will be around.
There are churches from 1300-s all over albania that haven't stopped being used; that's not oriental at all. 30-40% of albanians never converted to islam. The intolerance for gays is pushed by all the peasants and rednecks that have moved to the capital in the recent years. Rednecks are the same everywhere.
PaschalisB
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Compared to other muslim-majority countries it is. Compared to the Western World it's very far from being western.
albanopolis
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It does not matter churches. The mentality of Albanian christians is not much different from muslims. They too are oriental in mentality. It does not mean that if you are a christian in Bagdad you are western. Western is a philosophy of common sense, tolerance, collectivity. Albania lacks all of them. It will need 1000 yrs to weternise if ever.
By the same logic, even the albanian muslims are 35% christian. Plus albanian muslims: don't pray, swear, eat pork, drink alkohol, don't keep ramadan, the women don't cover their heads etc; they're not really muslims. Yes there is a lot of peasants who are selfish, violent, conservative and ignorant as hell, but that's not exactly orientalism. That's just being a big redneck, albanian style.
FBS
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Western is philosophy of common sense? There are a lot of flaws in western mentality but they are more sophisticated on the surface. There are a lot of problems in Europe regarding the rights of different ethnicities, for eg basques, corsicans, bretons, irish, etc. Christian religion is as intolerant towards the gay community and there are no women priests still. I have a lot of european friends who are disturbed about the under covered intolerances that need to be digged carefully to be decoded.
albanopolis
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I know all you are saying are true, but when it comes to common sense Albanians lack it. The westerners don't. Albanians need foreign intervention to solve their political grivances. We can't do it in our own. The reason is Oriental mentality. Get over it. We are not westerners. I doubt we will ever be. Islam and western values I don't think are compatible. Even if Albania joins politically and economically the west, it will remain a hybrid of orient and Oksident for all its existence.
albanopolis
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Being western is not the skyscrapers and the economy alone. Being western is freedom of ideas. Englang granted Scotland the right of a referendum on its independence. Have you seen Turkey what it grants Kurdistan? Bombs. Go to rural Turkey and you see females are not allowed to go to school. And you call it western? In western societies grandmothers watch porn sometimes. Do they do that in Turkey?
I agree albanians are not west europeans, but they're just like everybody else in the balkans. It's not like countries around albania are more western or are doing so great. If you feel oriental and want to be accepted as such by the world, that's fine, but then you have to specify that. When you say "albanians" and then make a statement, you're associating a lot of people with things they might be completely opposite.
albanopolis
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There is no need to tell the foreigners in this forum that we are not westerners. They already know it. What I am trying to say in this forum is that we like their way of thinking and we aspire to change our behaver. No country in the Ballkans is western. Christianity is not a passaport to west. Do you think Greece is western? Its as Orient as let say Turkey, regerdless its EU membership. The amount of influence the Clergy has in Greece is surpassed only by Iran I think, if they are not equal.
Anthro-inclined
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Lol, Greece is probably the most western country in the world. After all its the father of western civilization, all of our political and some of our cultural philosophies, have their origin in Greece. Being religious dosent mean your oriental, or non western, are southern baptists oriental? Greece is the west, as its our father, Plato, Socrates, and many other Greek philosophers represent western ideals, and are taught in nearly all north american schools, and European ones to. Rome based everything off Greece, and Rome still stands as one of the most powerful images of western dominance. So again why is Greece not western?
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