Is Turkey a Western country ?

[Johannes]

I have heard somewhere, that the U.S. course in Western Civ did begin with Ancient Egypt. Is this true?

No: it begins with Mesopotamia, but it quickly turns into Egypt, and then Greece and Rome (these are covered more extensively) -- at least that is what I took when I went to my university.

 

[Ike]

Which European country is the pure Western?

Example not Spain, İtaly, Poland, Hungary or any Balkan Countries for me

What is the meaning of opposite term; Eastern? Is it about İslam? If yes what we will do for China, Tayland, India, are they Western?

No it's not, and yes it's because of Islam.

 

[Angela]

This is a sort of standard syllabus for Western Civilization. The really good courses divide it up into two parts so that they can get into more detail.
http://www.concisewesternciv.com/guide/index.html

Some professors don't spend all that much time on the Near East because this is a vast survey course.

To really get a handle on that you need to take an Ancient Civilizations course.

This is a good one because it shows the questions that are being asked along the way. Just click on syllabus.
http://www.straighterline.com/online-college-courses/humanities/western-civilization-i/

It's not just Islam; it's a way of looking at the world and engaging with it that developed over centuries.

 

[Alan]

No: it begins with Mesopotamia, but it quickly turns into Egypt, and then Greece and Rome (these are covered more extensively) -- at least that is what I took when I went to my university.

true, It begins in Mesopotamia (most people point to Sumer being the first civilization roughly 4000 BC) a millennium later other civilzation rised up almost parallel such as Elam, Egypt, Nubia, Hurria/Mitanni/Subaru/Gutium, Hittite, Minoan, Amorite, Hatti, Akkad and few more.

Another millenia later (I call it the third stage) other civilizations started to rised up, many of them emerged from, or absorbed, the once listed previously. Those Civlizations include Urartu, Mannea, Media/Matiene, Persia, Scythia, Greece, , Assyria, Babylon, Phoenicia, ancient Israel, Rome and many more.

There was definitely influence on the Egyptian culture from ancient Mesopotamia as we see on the Pyramids which are based on Ziggurats.

 

[Boreas]

It's not just Islam; it's a way of looking at the world and engaging with it that developed over centuries.

Can you give rational examples?


Turkey version of Italian video. In orginal video is Italy VS Europe

 

[Angela]

Can you give rational examples?


Turkey version of Italian video. In orginal video is Italy VS Europe

Oh for goodness sakes, let's be serious, shall we? We're talking about the intellectual developments of centuries, not modes of driving, or how flexible different groups might be about following rules.

I'm talking about the Greeks creating democracy, and the Romans a republic with different branches. Where was the democracy or republican goverment of ancient Anatolia/Turkey? Autocrats one and all, whose power was often enforced by claims of divinity. Where is your Oration of Pericles or your Gettysburg Address for that matter? Has Turkey ever had a real, western style democracy? Where is the Greek style application of intellect and reason to the study of natural phenomenon separate from a religious interpretation, especially at that time.

Let's then turn to the Renaissance, created in Italy, and humanism. That's "Humanism" with a capital "H".
"noun: humanism

• an outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters. Humanist beliefs stress the potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasize common human needs, and seek solely rational ways of solving human problems.
  • a Renaissance cultural movement that turned away from medieval scholasticism and revived interest in ancient Greek and Roman thought."

What about the Enlightenment, the Reformation, the separation of church and state, the ability of science to finally step out of the shadow of religion?

"Enlightenment-a European intellectual movement of the late 17th and 18th centuries emphasizing reason and individualism rather than tradition. It was heavily influenced by 17th-century philosophers such as Descartes, Locke, and Newton, and its prominent exponents include Kant, Goethe, Voltaire, Rousseau, and Adam Smith."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment"

Where is your Thomas Locke, your Descartes?

These things all built on one another over centuries. Were there setbacks, as with the divinity of the Roman emperors or the divine right of Kings? Yes, there was. Was Galileo forced to recant by the Church? Yes, he was, but after he did so, he supposedly muttered, as he turned away, "And still it moves". Macchiavelli dared to look at politics from a totally objective and utilitarian way, whether it was "moral" or not. Italians are nominally Catholic, but for most of their history, not just now, they have happily ignored some of the bizarre Abrahamitic teachings of the church with regard to sexuality

Europe and Turkey are different. Europe is "western civilization", Turkey is not and the distinction didn't just arise with Islam. Europe went on its own trajectory starting with the Greeks and Romans. In fact, if Turkey were a "western" country, it would have already reformed Islam.

 

[Boreas]

Oh for goodness sakes, let's be serious, shall we? We're talking about the intellectual developments of centuries, not modes of driving, or how flexible different groups might be about following rules.

Being serious about imaginary cultural borders :grin:

I'm talking about the Greeks creating democracy, and the Romans a republic with different branches. Where was the democracy or republican goverment of ancient Anatolia/Turkey? Autocrats one and all, whose power was often enforced by claims of divinity. Where is your Oration of Pericles or your Gettysburg Address for that matter? Has Turkey ever had a real, western style democracy? Where is the Greek style application of intellect and reason to the study of natural phenomenon separate from a religious interpretation, especially at that time.

What is western style democracy?

Belarus

Check the military coup in Greece in 1967-1974 and Turkey had in 1980. Where is the difference?

Was Berlusconi Western style leader?

By the way, the video is not just about driving, there is also rulling/goverment part...

Where is your Thomas Locke, your Descartes?

Neither of them Italian, so if they can effect Italians and then make it Western, they can effect Turks or other nations as well.

You can know the writtings of Platon which is about Atlantis or you could read before "la Citta del Sole", but if you don't know Gaspirali's book which is about utopic muslim country and see his effort, this is not my shame.

Europe and Turkey are different. Europe is "western civilization", Turkey is not and the distinction didn't just arise with Islam. Europe went on its own trajectory starting with the Greeks and Romans. In fact, if Turkey were a "western" country, it would have already reformed Islam.

My point is not put Turkey in to Eastern or Western civilization. My point is irrationalism behind the this term.

 

[Ike]

Being serious about imaginary cultural borders :grin:

To be honest, they are more real than actual borders. You can change state border in a matter of minutes, but the cultural preferences stick in.

What is western style democracy?

Western style democracy doesn't currently work. It regressed back into mud of post-democracy, so any 20th century example is futile.
Angela gave you good examples. It's the puberty period of Western culture, that Muslims haven't gone through yet. You have to go from HIM (Humiliation, Ignorance, Misogyny) to HER(Humanism, Enlightenment, Renaissance).

You can know the writtings of Platon which is about Atlantis or you could read before "la Citta del Sole", but if you don't know Gaspirali's book which is about utopic muslim country and see his effort, this is not my shame.

Well, Gaspirali explained it himself:
"Our ignorance is the main reason for our backward condition. We have no access at all to what has been discovered and to what is going on in Europe. We must be able to read in order to overcome our isolation; we must learn European ideas from European sources. We must introduce into our primary and secondary schools subjects that will permit our pupils to have such access."

 

[Boreas]

To be honest, they are more real than actual borders.

However you can't mansure cultural borders as actual borders

You can change state border in a matter of minutes, but the cultural preferences stick in.

It is up to people, Some people can believe stick cultural Iron Curtains, some not.

[/COLOR][/FONT]Well, Gaspirali explained it himself:
"Our ignorance is the main reason for our backward condition. We have no access at all to what has been discovered and to what is going on in Europe. We must be able to read in order to overcome our isolation; we must learn European ideas from European sources. We must introduce into our primary and secondary schools subjects that will permit our pupils to have such access."
[/QUOTE]

As the bible said, ignorance is a big sin and one of the great social disorder.

 

[Ike]

However you can't mansure cultural borders as actual borders

Cultural borders are even stronger. I know because I've watched a civil war starting on cultural basis because UN and EU insisted different people should live together.

 

[Boreas]

Cultural borders are even stronger. I know because I've watched a civil war starting on cultural basis because UN and EU insisted different people should live together.

That is a little bit pessimistic opinion.

I think we have changed the roles. Now you are the one who wants isolation.

It seems humanism in Europe, have turned to Westerism which is something like Nazi Aryanism. etrified:

 

[Ike]

That is a little bit pessimistic opinion.
I think we have changed the roles. Now you are the one who wants isolation.

No, you shouldn't conclude that from an example. The fact fact that people got a bit hotheaded at that moment, and that temporary separation would have helped them overcome their issues doesn't mean that I want or don't want something. I must add that I was amazed that a simple and plain solution like that, that is spontaneously applied during every school or bar fight was omitted.

It seems humanism in Europe, have turned to Westerism which is something like Nazi Aryanism. etrified:

There probably are (and always were) elements of that in Europeans.

 

[Angela]

No, you shouldn't conclude that from an example. The fact fact that people got a bit hotheaded at that moment, and that temporary separation would have helped them overcome their issues doesn't mean that I want or don't want something. I must add that I was amazed that a simple and plain solution like that, that is spontaneously applied during every school or bar fight was omitted.


There probably are (and always were) elements of that in Europeans.

Depends very much on the country...the seeds found, and find, fertile ground much more in some countries than in others.

 

[Ike]

Depends very much on the country...the seeds found, and find, fertile ground much more in some countries than in others.

Well call it Aryanism or not, we must admit we do think we are better than others. If not for that, we wouldn't terrorize the whole planet for centuries, destroying whole peoples and their languages, even telling them in what God to believe. The last one is absurd. I don't know how you can get more arrogant than that. That attitude of ours is still present here in Europe, we still think we know everything the best, and that others are primitive and backwards and that they should listen to what we say. In fact that's exactly how Western countries (which are in position to) act every day.

To be fair, Muslims had their share of terror also. They were just not as successful as we were...don't know maybe it's because of a 600 years head start, maybe something else... Before they went religion bezerk, some of those cultures were really to be looked upon with admiration and respect in comparison with medieval Europe.

 

[Piro Ilir]

For sure they are on the way. But depends on what you mean by western country. Democracy is the measure when we should use that therm. If we have a democratic country either is a Muslim or Christian country, we should say and admit this is an western country. For example: turkey comparing with Russia is more an western country than Russia. They have a much more democratic government than Russia, for the moment at least

 

[DuPidh]

Sorry, but this is absolutely incorrect. "Western" means partaking of "Western Civilization". A course in Western Civ used to be a required first year university class in the U.S., and should be again. You can't understand your culture unless you understand how it developed.

It did indeed begin with the modes of thought and philosophy of Greece and Rome, although it continued to develop with Christianization, the Renaissance, the Reformation, the Enlightenment, Industrialization etc.



It is marked by a tradition of rationalism that originated with the Greeks and was then developed by the Scholastics, the Humanists and the Enlightenment thinkers. It has grown to ever more value free thought, equality of opportunity, and democracy.

So, no, Turkey is not a western country.

The definition of " Western" is a bit murky. Americans believe that Japan is western country. If Japan is western then why not Turkey?

 

[Piro Ilir]

Oh for goodness sakes, let's be serious, shall we? We're talking about the intellectual developments of centuries, not modes of driving, or how flexible different groups might be about following rules.

I'm talking about the Greeks creating democracy, and the Romans a republic with different branches. Where was the democracy or republican goverment of ancient Anatolia/Turkey? Autocrats one and all, whose power was often enforced by claims of divinity. Where is your Oration of Pericles or your Gettysburg Address for that matter? Has Turkey ever had a real, western style democracy? Where is the Greek style application of intellect and reason to the study of natural phenomenon separate from a religious interpretation, especially at that time.

Let's then turn to the Renaissance, created in Italy, and humanism. That's "Humanism" with a capital "H".
"noun: humanism

• an outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters. Humanist beliefs stress the potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasize common human needs, and seek solely rational ways of solving human problems.
  • a Renaissance cultural movement that turned away from medieval scholasticism and revived interest in ancient Greek and Roman thought."

What about the Enlightenment, the Reformation, the separation of church and state, the ability of science to finally step out of the shadow of religion?

"Enlightenment-a European intellectual movement of the late 17th and 18th centuries emphasizing reason and individualism rather than tradition. It was heavily influenced by 17th-century philosophers such as Descartes, Locke, and Newton, and its prominent exponents include Kant, Goethe, Voltaire, Rousseau, and Adam Smith."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment"

Where is your Thomas Locke, your Descartes?

These things all built on one another over centuries. Were there setbacks, as with the divinity of the Roman emperors or the divine right of Kings? Yes, there was. Was Galileo forced to recant by the Church? Yes, he was, but after he did so, he supposedly muttered, as he turned away, "And still it moves". Macchiavelli dared to look at politics from a totally objective and utilitarian way, whether it was "moral" or not. Italians are nominally Catholic, but for most of their history, not just now, they have happily ignored some of the bizarre Abrahamitic teachings of the church with regard to sexuality

Europe and Turkey are different. Europe is "western civilization", Turkey is not and the distinction didn't just arise with Islam. Europe went on its own trajectory starting with the Greeks and Romans. In fact, if Turkey were a "western" country, it would have already reformed Islam.

If ancient Helens got the democracy, this not mean that modern Greece is a democratic country. You can't be a Greek citizen if you are not a Greek orthodox. All Albanians emigrants who works in Greece were forced to be baptized and change their names. As I know there is not permitted to build mosques. It is an extremist orthodox state, and this is unacceptable for the democracy. Even if you are born in Greece, they will never give you the Greek citizenship, if you are a Muslim. Greece, has nothing to do with democracy.

 

[Angela]

If ancient Helens got the democracy, this not mean that modern Greece is a democratic country. You can't be a Greek citizen if you are not a Greek orthodox. All Albanians emigrants who works in Greece were forced to be baptized and change their names. As I know there is not permitted to build mosques. It is an extremist orthodox state, and this is unacceptable for the democracy. Even if you are born in Greece, they will never give you the Greek citizenship, if you are a Muslim. Greece, has nothing to do with democracy.

Not to bring up a sore subject, but can it have escaped your notice that Greece and other areas in the Balkans were ruled by the Ottoman Turks for 500 years? They rather missed out on the later Renaissance and the Enlightenment. (Not that having experienced those developments is a guarantee of an unwavering movement forward.)That hiatus doesn't negate their history and their accomplishments, as the Nazi era doesn't negate all of Germany's. Human progress is a torturous process and there are setbacks and detours, but hopefully we find the path again.

 

[Yetos]

If ancient Helens got the democracy, this not mean that modern Greece is a democratic country. You can't be a Greek citizen if you are not a Greek orthodox. All Albanians emigrants who works in Greece were forced to be baptized and change their names. As I know there is not permitted to build mosques. It is an extremist orthodox state, and this is unacceptable for the democracy. Even if you are born in Greece, they will never give you the Greek citizenship, if you are a Muslim. Greece, has nothing to do with democracy.

you are tottaly wrong, and ignorant who just spread vicious posts,

you can get Greek citizenship, but you not get Greek ιθαγενεια (nativity)
Greece for security reasons has 4 degree of nativity,
it counts only in very high military positions,
as in every country,
for example in USA Arnold (Conan) Terminator Swartz/er can not be president of USA,
so keep causious on what you say,


and Yes we give Greek citizenship to newborn only if one parent is Greek all over the world,
and to newborn in Greece only after the age 20 and if asked,

so since you are an Albanian, and Greece sucks,
and your friends tell you that Greeks are lazy and do not work,
and Greece is a bad country, full of fat people,
WHY YOU ARE INTERESTING IN GREECE?
DO YOU WANT TO BE A GREEK CITIZEN?
OR YOUR FRIENDS, WHO TELL YOU THAT GREECE IS A BAD COUNTRY TO LIVE, but they live, WANT GREEK CITIZENSHIP?

and let me inform you that pure Orthodox in Greece are 13%
there are 11% Greek muslims
6% protestans
11% catholics
and 56% with the new Archbishopy (guess what, the spiritual leader is Arbanitis)
and few other among them polytheists

to build a church or a monsk in Greece needs certain rules,
and it has to do with SEVRES AND LAUSSANE TREATIES FROM WW1, and EGYPT of 1950's
you are so ignorant that you do not know that Greece with ISLAMIC WORLD, has a treaty on churches and monsks,
as long they keep close or made Byzantine churches Islamic temens, from Kars Turk-Armenia, to Alexandreia Egypt, no new monsk in Greece, except the ones of the minority already has and only in Thrace.
EVEN ARABS FROM SAUDI KNOW AND ACCEPT THAT, WHY YOU DID NOT KNEW IT, SINCE YOU KNOW SO MUCH ABOUT GREECE,

but you are so ignorant, so ignorant, just spead vicious posts,

 

[Boreas]

In the case of Humanism and Secularism, Greece is not so popular country, actually all Southern and Eastern European countries.