Is Turkey a Western country ?

Back to the topic: What do you guys think about the article I posted before Sirious ignited his banana-mode?

Couples in Turkey unable to conceive naturally face possible jail if they go abroad for artificial insemination treatment. That's according to a new regulation introduced by the country's ministry of health. Artificial insemination has been banned in Turkey for several years, but now the government appears to determined to end the practice altogether.

Artificial insemination is usually not controversial in many other countries. But in Turkey, it's a different story. A new measure makes it a crime for a Turkish woman to get pregnant with sperm from a foreign donor, punishable by one to three years in jail.

The regulation has caused shock both for couples unable to conceive naturally and the doctors who treat them.

Officials say the measure is based on a law that forbids concealing a child's paternity. Protecting the racial purity of the nation is also another reason given by health officials defending the policy.

But women's rights groups are outraged. Pinar Ilkkaracan is the head of Women for Women's Human Rights.
source: http://womenofhistory.blogspot.com/2010/03/turkey-sperm-bank-users-face-jail.html

:areh:

I can only imagine such thing in the Germany of the Third Reich.
 
Turkey bans trips abroad for artificial insemination


By Jonathan Head
BBC News, Istanbul
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Turkish citizens cannot conceal the paternity of their children

A new law passed in Turkey has made it a criminal offence for a woman to go abroad and get pregnant via artificial insemination.

Artificial insemination is already illegal, but women have until now been able to go overseas to seek sperm donors.
Now they will face punishment of one to three years in prison for doing so.



Doctors and lawyers say they are trying to find out how the government plans to enforce the law.



All sorts of activities can land you in court, and possibly in jail, in Turkey.



Insulting "Turkishness", taking part in demonstrations, or showing the slightest sympathy for the banned Kurdish Workers' Party, for example.
Now you can add to that long list the crime of using a foreign sperm donor.



Paternity concerns

Artificial insemination is already illegal in Turkey. Doctors offering fertility treatment here have to make that clear in their advertising.
But women have until now been able to seek sperm donors overseas without fear of prosecution.


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We spent years fighting to improve the law so that it would properly protect women's autonomy over their bodies and sexuality
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Pinar Ilkkaracan
Women's rights campaigner

However, a new regulation, quietly published nine days ago by the Turkish Health Ministry, states that any clinics, doctors or patients who use, or encourage the use of, overseas sperm banks will be reported to state prosecutors and face possible criminal charges.



Clinics will be closed down, for three months at first and then permanently if the offence is repeated.



A spokesman at the Department of Health, Irfan Sencan, said the regulation was covered by article 231 of the criminal code, which makes it a crime to conceal the paternity of a child.



But Pinar Ilkkaracan, a prominent women's rights campaigner in Turkey, said it would be a misinterpretation of a law intended to protect the inheritance rights of children.



"This is completely against the philosophy of the reformed penal code," she told the BBC.



"We spent years fighting to improve the law so that it would properly protect women's autonomy over their bodies and sexuality.
"This government has slipped this regulation in without any debate in parliament."



Conservative outlook

"It is a huge step backwards," said Ismail Mete Itil, chairman of the Turkish Gynaecologists' and Obstetricians' Association.



"The law should be reformed to take into account the new choices technology offers women - they have done the opposite. They have not thought through the implications of this."



Dr Itil said the number of women seeking sperm donors overseas was small, fewer than 100 a year, but he worries about the implications of the new regulation in other areas, like ethnically-mixed couples.



The issue was publicly discussed last year when one of Turkey's best-known actresses, Guner Ozkul, announced she had used a sperm donor in Denmark to conceive her daughter, who is now five months old.
Ms Ozkul told the BBC she did not want to comment on the new regulation.
It is hard to imagine pregnant women being put on trial just for the way they conceived, but not impossible in Turkey, where last month a 15-year-old Kurdish girl was jailed for nearly eight years just for taking part in a demonstration.



Ms Ilkkaracan believes the move reflects the conservative outlook of the governing Justice and Development Party, which has strongly promoted family values.



She cites the party's failed attempt to criminalise adultery in 2004, and Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's public call for women to have at least three children as examples.



But Mr Sencan at the Department of Health said it was essential for children to know who their fathers and grandfathers are; using sperm donors, he said, contravened that requirement.
source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8568733.stm



This country has no place in the EU. Period. Go and applicate for the Arab League.
 
Back to the topic: What do you guys think about the article I posted before Sirious ignited his banana-mode?

source: http://womenofhistory.blogspot.com/2010/03/turkey-sperm-bank-users-face-jail.html

:areh:

I can only imagine such thing in the Germany of the Third Reich.


I believe this article speaks volumes as to why Turkey is clearly non-European and should never be offered membership in the EU. Turkey's habitus is not compatible with the set of inclinations, preferences and perspectives that governs European thinking and behavior.
 
WOW, and Turkey is supposedly a laicist country...
 
I have split (again) the offtopic discussion about Spain and Mexico. Lynx/Wilhelm/Cambria Red and Sirius2b I will now ask you to stop provoking each others and stop replying to each others post as it also degenerates (not just in this thread but the whole forum).

Thanks.
 
:areh:

I can only imagine such thing in the Germany of the Third Reich.

That's outrageous indeed. Three years of jail time to trying to have a baby ! There are still quite a few stupid laws that need to be scrapped if Turkey ever wants to join the EU.

I am surprised that the mainstream media always talk about the same issues regarding Turkey's Human Rights infringements (like Kurdish political prisoners), but hardly ever mention this kind of issues. I can understand more easily that a country imprison separatist terrorists than a supposedly democratic and secular government passing laws with sole purpose to imprison ordinary citizen trying to have a baby by means of modern science. This is utterly intolerable. And I am saying this as a person who think that Turkey should one day have the right to join the EU (although I am 100% opposed to North African countries).
 
I have split (again) the offtopic discussion about Spain and Mexico. Lynx/Wilhelm/Cambria Red and Sirius2b I will now ask you to stop provoking each others and stop replying to each others post as it also degenerates (not just in this thread but the whole forum).

Thanks.

Fair enough, Maciamo. However, I believe we all recognize who the inveterate instigator of conflict is here.
 
No ban to Sirious? OK whatever. I guess you enjoy closing/moving/deleting threads Maciamo. Because if you read carefully all our pasts discussions (and this one) this guy is always the epicenter/starter of the conflicts.

I warned you in the beginning that this guy is a troll who comes from other forum I used to visit. His only agenda in here is trolling and harassing us like some kind of sick iberian-addict. Whatever the issue we are discussing he always have to bring his iberianphobic obsession into the thread.
 
I agree with Lynx. How is Sirious not banned ?? when it is very clear that in all the threads closed/splitted he has always been the one to start the conflict. We where talking here about Turkey, and all of a sudden he starts provoking spaniards for no reason...
 
I thing that @Maciamo was right in cutting all the not Turkey content here.

Regards.
 
Sirius has been a trouble maker from the start. And he constantly misrepresents the facts when it comes to Iberians, particularly Spaniards. I'm waiting for this character to begin racially slandering Spaniards and Portuguese directly. I can tell you one thing, he seems to have an extreme pathological dislike for anything Iberian.
 
Damn, you sound so childish ! "No it's not me, it's him. I didn't do it I promise. He is the bad guy !" Is this kindergarten ?
 
A ke bono if you wasn't present during this episode and aren't aware of the whole story (which it happens to be the case), please do not intervene. We don't need a newbie to mix things up right now. Thank you.
 
If you have no real knowledge of what transpired it is best not to comment.

There is a history on this thread (and others) that clearly points to a specific individual creating problems by repeatedly attacking Spaniards. If anyone is behaving childishly it is he.
 
Well, regarding Turkey...

Most of the Europeans (I mean, normal people) only look at the mere fact if Turkey is going to enter de EU or not...

However, although it would be undeniably a very important event, the fact is that I am much more interested in the spiritual, political and diplomatic changes and mentality in Europe AND MOSTLY, IN TURKEY...

What better than reading it from Turks themselves... ??

(Unfortunatelly English is not the most prevalent European language in which Turks communicate outside turkish... but being this an European forum, please indulge me... )

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In summary, I see it as a "Play in three acts".

1. The first, will be this article supposedly written by former German intelligence member (in reality, wrote by the Chinese intelligence):

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/IH09Aa01.html

(It is very long, so read it when you have time)

2. The second, will be the confirmation of such plans and mentality... by the Turks of the streets themselves...

Es ist für uns geradezu wieder ein Treppenwitz der Geschichte, dass der zweite « Anker » der Türkei im Westen, also die Beitrittszusage zur EU, wohl ein entscheidender Faktor für ein Ausscheiden der Türkei aus dem westlichen Lager sein wird. Diese Zusage ist nicht einlösbar. Daran ändert auch die Eröffnung der Beitrittsverhandlungen im Jahr 2005, die die Regierungen der EU-Mitgliedstaaten aus Mangel an politischem Mut und kurzsichtig mit Hinweis auf ein einmal gegebenes Versprechen beschlossen haben, nichts. Am Ende dieser Beitrittsverhandlungen steht nicht ein Türkei-Beitritt zur EU. Vielmehr werden damit die zwei Bedingungen, die Grundlage für den neuen türkischen außenpolitischen Kurs sind, geschaffen:

- Um die EU-Standards für Demokratie und Rechtsstaat zu erfüllen, musste die Armee sich aus ihrer Teilhabe an der Macht und ihrem Kontrollanspruch über die Politik zurückziehen. Seit Jahrzehnten hatte die türkische Armee das Land mit Hilfe von politischen Marionetten regiert; geschah es, dass die Wähler einmal eine Partei wählten, die der Armee nicht passte, übernahm die Armee die Macht ganz offen. Die Armee proklamierte sich zum Nachlassverwalter Atatürks, missbrauchte aber die daraus abgeleitete Machtposition überwiegend, um das Land unter Kontrolle zu halten und den bestmöglichen Nutzen aus den reichlichen finanziellen Mitteln zu ziehen, die Nato, EU und die USA (7) in das Land pumpten, um sich der Türkei für die Treue zum westlichen Lager erkenntlich zu erzeigen. Die Schwächung der türkischen Armee bringt den Westen um seine treuesten Verbündeten in der türkischen Gesellschaft. Wieder einmal beweist Geschichte ihren Sinn für Ironie.

- Welch enormen Widerstände in der EU und insbs. in den öffentlichen Meinungen (8) der Mitgliedstaaten gegen einen auch nur langfristigen Beitritt der Türkei bestehen, wird den Menschen in der Türkei seit nunmehr vier Jahren regelmäßig vor Augen geführt. Gleichzeitig musste die Türkei erkennen, dass die sogenannten „Beitrittsverhandlungen“ bei weitem keine Verhandlungen sind (9), sondern lediglich der Überprüfung dienen, dass der Beitrittskandidat die 90000 Seiten EU -Gesetzestexte (acquis communautaire in sein Rechtssystem aufgenommen hat. Das ist unerlässliche Voraussetzung für einen Beitritt. Verhandelbar sind lediglich Umsetzungsfristen für die einzelnen Bereiche. Für die öffentliche Meinung in der Türkei ist dieses Verfahren Ausdruck für eine „Kolonialisierung auf Gesetzeswege“. Protesten blieben nicht aus und die Ressentiments wachsen. Bei den jüngeren Türken setzt sich allmählich der Eindruck fest, dass die Europäer sie gar nicht dabei haben wollen und dass sich das Land in eine Sackgasse habe manövrieren lassen. Diese Erkenntnis bedeutet einen Bruch mit einer über vierzig Jahre gepflegten politischen Doktrin, nach der für die Türkei eine wünschenswerte Zukunft nur in einem EU-Beitritt liegen könne. Die Enttäuschung vieler Türken über die EU trieb der an der Macht befindlichen islamistischen Partei, die nur äußerst widerwillig den EU-Beitritt verfolgte (10), neue, nicht-religiöse Wählerschichten zu, die einen EU-Beitritt ablehnen oder jedenfalls als nicht erstrebenswert ansehen.

3. And the third, will be the full realisation of that, and the looking for a new place of Turkey in the world, looking for a great Turkish destiny, mostly in its own space... as it could be seen in this "violent" interchange in a forum, between a German and a Turk.

Zitat von mammoth
1. Hat Erdogan in Deutschland einen Dreck zu melden.


Erdogan ist ein wahrer Türke. Er sieht aus wie ein Türke, er redet wie ein Türke und er benimmt sich wie ein Türke. Er hat die korrupte Elite der Türkei entmachtet. Die Türken jubeln ihm zu, weil er einer von ihnen ist und keine Marionette des Westens. Ich kann mich noch an diesen Yilmaz erinnern. Ein furchtbar schleimiger Typ, der Helmut Kohl in den Hintern gekrochen ist. Oder an diese Frau (Ciller oder Cilla ?), die kein Kopftuch getragen hat und schon fast ein wenig nuttig rüberkam. Die deutschen Politiker können einem wie Erdogan nicht das Wasser reichen. Er hat ihre schändliche Assimilierungspolitik durchschaut und schützt sein türkisches Volk in Deutschland. Wenn einer wie Erdogan spricht, sollten deutsche Politiker aller Parteien einfach mal das Maul halten und genau zuhören. Von ihm können sie was lernen. Im Übrigen ist freiwillige Assimilierung Vaterlandsverrat und erzwungene Assimilierung sehe ich als Verbrechen.


Zitat von mammoth
2. Was ist türkische Identität ? Sprache ? Hier spricht man Deutsch.
Kultur ? Was ist Kultur ? Schulen ? Hier gibt es deutsche Schulen.


Nein, hier wird kein Deutsch gesprochen, hier spricht man Denglisch. Ihr habt nicht mal eine eigene Sprache. Und das du nicht weisst, was Kultur ist, ist nicht verwunderlich, da ihr auch keine habt, weil ihr alles aufgegeben habt. Ihr lehnt alles ab, was Euch deutsch erscheint, von der Volksmusik bis zum Schweinsbraten. Ihr habt auch keine Religion, eure Kirchen werden von Jahr zu Jahr leerer. Ihr habt keine Geschichte, außer 12 dunkle Jahre und einer Wiedervereinigung 40 Jahre später. Jeder durchschnittliche türkische Hauptschüler hat mehr Identität als ein durchschnittlicher deutscher Akademiker. Ihr habt nichts anzubieten, in das sich jemand integrieren könnte. Nichts, außer einem Grundgesetz und das euch nicht mehr zu eurem Land einfällt als ein Gesetzbuch, zeigt wie emotionslos und abgestumpft ihr seid. Es ist absolut nicht erstrebenswert sich bei euch zu integrieren, denn keiner will so werden wie ihr. Ihr habt auch keinen Anspruch darauf, dass sich Migranten integrieren. Den einzigen Anspruch, den ihr an Migranten stellen könnt, ist der, dass sie sich an eure Gesetze halten. Wenn sie das tun, dann haben die Migranten auch einen Anspruch an euch und zwar den, dass ihr sie in Ruhe lasst mit eurem nervtötenden Integrationsgeblubber.

Source: http://www.politik.de/forum/naher-u...nt-israel-hauptbedrohung-fuer-frieden-10.html

See also:


1. History of an alliance...
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KJ15Ak01.html

2. ... but now...
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/133843

3. Joint ventures in Space Turkey - Russia.
http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20090317_turkey_and_russia_rise

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Turkey is not just about "entry-non entry" in the EU.

It is about a great people, very concious of itself.

I don't know how is that many Europeans fail to see how interesting the future of Turkey would be.

Regards.
 
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Women on the Front Line - Turkey: Killing in the Name of Honour Part of the series: Women on the Front Line
More to view/download/share: links



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This programme contains sensitive content, teachers are advised to watch in full before showing to pupils



An investigation into why women in Turkey, are being forced into suicide in an attempt to cover up "honour" killings.

According to UNFPA, as many as 5,000 women a year are murdered in the name of honour.


In Turkey, "honour" killings now carry a mandatory life sentence but there is disturbing evidence that tougher sentencing is leading to an increase in forced suicides.


Introduced by Annie Lennox and shot by all-women crews, this series tells the personal stories of the courageous women who have survived abuses and now want their voices to be heard.



Source: http://www.teachers.tv/videos/46251
 
Kurdish human rights activist condemned in Turkey
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The MP from banned in 1994 pro-Kurdish Democratic Society Party Leyla Zana is sentenced to 3-years? imprisonment on a charge of ?propaganda about terrorist organization Kurdistan Workers? Party.?


Zana and her lawyer did not attend the closing court session of Diyarbakir 5th High Criminal Court, when the verdict was read out.



Earlier, in April 2008 she was sentenced to 2-years imprisonment by Turkish authorities for allegedly ?spreading terrorist propaganda? by saying ?Kurds have three leaders namely Massoud Barzani, Celal Talebani and Abdullah Ocalan.?


Thereafter, in December 2008, Zana was sentenced to 10 more years by the Turkish court, saying she violated Turkish Penal code and Turkish anti-terror law in 9 different speeches.


Source: http://news.am/en/news/18606.html
 
Women condemn Turkey constitution


By Sarah Rainsford
BBC News, Istanbul


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The Islamic headscarf is worn by 60% of Turkish women

Women's groups in Turkey have condemned a new draft constitution, saying it sets the country back years in terms of gender equality.


A new civilian constitution is being prepared to replace the current one, introduced after a 1980 military coup.



The document describes women as a vulnerable group needing protection.
The proposed constitution has already sparked fierce debate with a clause to allow women to attend university wearing the Islamic headscarf.



Speaking on Tuesday, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan assured critics the new draft constitution will reflect the values and needs of all groups of society.



'Patriarchal society'

More than 80 women's groups have come together to voice strong opposition to the draft constitution, calling it a major step backwards for equal rights.



The current constitution in Turkey obliges the government to ensure equality for all - a clause that women's groups fought hard to include.
The new draft removes that, describing women instead as a vulnerable group in need of special protection.



Women's rights activist Selen Lermioglu calls that worrying proof that Turkey is still a highly patriarchal society.



"If the government accepts this it will show their ideology and mindset about women and men - that women are a group that needs to be protected," she said.



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PM Erdogan wants to replace the 1980 constitution


"No we're not, we don't need protection. We need equality and ask for that, not protection.



"If all laws and the whole constitution is prepared with this mindset, it can have a really bad impact," she added, pointing out that the draft was drawn up by men.



Pressure from women's groups helped force major reforms of Turkey's civil code in 2002.



A clause was removed then that identified the man as the head of the household, and obliged a wife to seek permission to go out to work.



Women's rights activists see this draft constitution as a return to that mentality.



They warn it could allow a man to deny his wife the right to work, for example, on the premise he is protecting her.



And they fear such an argument could well win favour with Turkey's conservative, male-dominated judiciary.



The group says it has not formed a common position yet on the issue of the Islamic headscarf, worn by more than 60% of Turkish woman but banned in state offices, schools and universities.



The government wants to change the constitution to ensure girls who cover their heads can attend university.



Women's activists, like the wider society here, are divided on that.
So far the new constitution has been drafted behind closed doors: now women's groups are demanding to be consulted.



They want to make this process an opportunity to push for more rights, not fewer, including a clause insisting on a temporary quota for women, to eliminate discrimination in all areas.



They argue that is the only way to lift Turkey from close to the bottom of the list in Europe on gender equality.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7025294.stm
 

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