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- Y-DNA haplogroup
- J2B2-L283/Z638
it means he went to Italy from modern Croatian lands like the other Daunians
What? I'm talking about the Caucaus HG that gave rise to IE people.
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it means he went to Italy from modern Croatian lands like the other Daunians
What? I'm talking about the Caucaus HG that gave rise to IE people.
He’s a J2b, but not J2b L283. He belongs to an older, upstream branch. See below.
Per Trojet over at AG:
“The authors were nice enough to respond to an inquiry with regards to NEO281, 7773 BC, Kotias Klde, Georgia. They confirmed he is indeed Y haplogroup J2b, and more specifically should split YFull's current J2b-Z1825 level (ISOGG's J2b2-Z1827 branch).”
Wait this specific branch appears in Maros? Or are you referring to L283 in general?Considering they appear in the Maros culture with R-Z2103, what speaks against them travelling with Yamnaya to Pannonia?
Wait this specific branch appears in Maros? Or are you referring to L283 in general?
Only in general.
Have to agree the hypothesis you mentioned is very attractive.
The fact that J, J2a and J2b have been found in one cave is quite a coincidence. Means a quite diversified J based population was in the area. It remains to be seen if L283 was part of the HG group contributing to Steppe though, since so far very circumstantial evidence to back it up.
Caucasus paper hopefully will shed light on the issue. I think statistically speaking, as plausible as your theory seems, a complete Y replacement based on economic specialization is quite unlikely. As economic equilibria would have swung the tides before a complete replacement, leaving at least minimal Y signal for a population that would have contributed 50% of the autosomal.
I think we are missing a big part of the puzzle, and hopefully new studies will point in the right direction.
These were founder effects among the PIE clans. We have no idea about how in detail the diversity in the Lower Don areas was before. Just think about the later founder effects in Yamnaya, Corded Ware, Bell Beakers and other groups. Not just in the PIE sphere, also in Western and Central Europe among the GAC agro-pastoralists. Q was probably there as well but left not much of a mark on the PIE of later generations.
The Lower Don was archaeologically a hotspot with influences and innovations reaching the area from different directions. It became a Demographie and cultural source region with important sites like R. yar.What do you think of this hypothesis.
A middle phase population rich in EHG CHG autosomal makeup being the mediator for these Don populations. As a middle phase this would allow for founder effects etc diluting unipaternals way before it became the vehicle for CHG further north in Yamnaya / Steppe? This would imply the EHG CHG mix happend way earlier somewhere further south just north of the Caucasus Range, and this very mix going further north would later give rise to the Steppe pops?
Got this idea reading some back and forths from Davidski in his comment section on one of the papers.
He’s a J2b, but not J2b L283. He belongs to an older, upstream branch. See below.
Per Trojet over at AG:
“The authors were nice enough to respond to an inquiry with regards to NEO281, 7773 BC, Kotias Klde, Georgia. They confirmed he is indeed Y haplogroup J2b, and more specifically should split YFull's current J2b-Z1825 level (ISOGG's J2b2-Z1827 branch).”
Stable population structure in Europe since the Iron Age
R9918 Doclea_Bjelovine, Mod. d. Montenegro : J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/
R3481 Doclea_Bjelovine, Mod. d. Montenegro: J-Z1043 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/
R3918 Sirmium: J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/
R6693 Svilos_Krusevlje: J-Z600? https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z600/
R9669 Viminacium: J-Z1295 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1295/
R3544 Gardun, Croatia J-Z1043+ https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/
The J2b-L283s from the paper above as of now.
The Montenegrines show no overlap with Albanians, the others are in the same upstream clades, but no recent founders depending on the debth of the analysis.
In what sense do you mean overlap? As of clades? My mother's paternal side are part of the Korbi tribe whom you can find all the way from Kukes, Albania to Eastern Kosovo J2b-L283>Z597>Z631>Z1043>Y22894
I mean these new rather Northern Illyrian subclade samples from Montenegro and that they don't have modern Albanian counterparts. Seem to be unrelated to modern Albanian patrilineages.
There is only one late antiquity sample from Montenegro: R3481, (~260 CE) Doclea, Montenegro which belongs to J2b-L283>>Z638>>Z631>Z1043.
In the Balkans, this subclade is mostly found among Albanians, so I'm not sure what you're suggesting... (The other sample from Montenegro, J-CTS6190, is only Medieval, so not exactly "ancient").
While a BCE sample would've been more significant, this is still a pretty significant find for J-Z631>Z1043. He is likely part of the Docleatae. User Aspurg may have been right after all :embarassed: when he proposed that J-Z631 may have undergone its demographic expansion as part of IA Glasinac-Mati cultural complex.
So ancient J-L283 samples were found in tunisia I think at around 500BC but I don't think there has been ancient iberian J-L283 samples discovered.
Does this imply that J-L283 did not arrive in spain until roman and phonecian berber migration through mercenaries or roman soldiers / colonist?
Or perhaps ancient greek settlements also?
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