Just how important were Y-haplogroups E-M34, J1 and T in the LBK culture ?

Maciamo

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At present, ancient Y-DNA tests have only confirmed the presence of haplogroups G2a and F among the remains of Neolithic farmers from the Linear Pottery culture (LBK) in Central Europe. Elsewhere, only G2a and E-V13 have been found, besides the Mesolithic lineage I2a. Most people now agree that G2a and E-V13 were key paternal lineages in the spread of the Neolithic across Europe, although some still disagree that they originated in the Fertile Crescent. Personally I think that E-V13 came to Greece and the southern Balkans during the Late Glacial or immediate postglacial period, probably accompanied by J2b, and that these lineages were just picked up early by Near Eastern farmers and spread with them across Europe.

But then what lineage did the original agriculturalists from the Fertile Crescent belong to ? Obviously G2a (although Ray Banks disagree, seeing it as native to Mesolithic Mediterranean Europe), but that is not the only one, nor perhaps the main one. I have long said that the Near Eastern haplogroups E-M34, J1 and T were all minority lineages of Neolithic farmers in Europe. But seeing just how high the percentages of mt-haplogroups N1a (13%) and K (19.5%) were among the numerous LBK samples tested to date (mostly by Brandt et al 2013), it makes me think that J1 and T in particular must have been major lineages of the LBK culture. Two months ago I tried to retrace the original mtDNA lineages of J1 and T and came to the conclusion that mtDNA N1a and K must have been the maternal equivalent of J1 and T during the Early Neolithic. In fact it is very difficult to split populations of J1 and T as these two paternal lineages seem to have evolved side by side as a single population at least since the immediate postglacial period (perhaps since the Natufian culture). This J1+T population would also have carried a small percentage of HV and U3 lineages, and indeed both were present in the LBK samples (5% and 1% respectively).

The rest of original maternal lineages associated with the J1 and T populations from the Neolithic Near East would have been essentially mtDNA J and T, particularly J2b1, T1a'3 and T2c. And indeed all these were found in the LBK or cultures descended from it, alongside other J and T subclades picked up in Anatolia and the Balkans along the way (J1c, T1a1, T2a1b, T2b, T2e and T2f1) with the E-V13 and J2b2 male lineages. Unfortunately deep subclades haven't been tested for all J and T samples. What is sure is that there were three T2c among the 102 LBK samples.

J1+T people might have carried some H subclades too, but I haven't been able to distinguish those linked to G2a or E-M34 from those linked to J1 and T. Overall, Near Eastern farmers must have carried H2, H5, H7, H13 and H20, but most are probably linked to G2a, or perhaps even to the Balkanic E-V13 and J2b. Among them only H5 and H7 were found in LBK-related cultures, though none during the LBK period itself. The only H subclade clearly identified in LBK samples was the extremely rare H46b.

It's not easy to sort out the LBK mtDNA lineages as they are already a blend of three distinct populations:

1) Near Eastern farmers (linked to Y-DNA E-M34, G2a, J1 and T)
2) Assimilated Mesolithic West Anatolian, Greek & Balkanic hunter-gatherers (linked to Y-DNA E-V13 and J2b)
3) Assimilated Mesolithic Central European hunter-gatherers (linked to Y-DNA C, F, I and R1a)

I have summarised the respective maternal lineages of these three populations here.


How much Near Eastern vs Balkanic ancestry ?

Overall I estimate that approximately 45-50% of mtDNA from the LBK culture came directly from the Near East and was mostly associated with Y-haplogroups J1 and T, and to a lower extent also G2a(xG2a3b1) and E-M34.

About 50% of the LBK mtDNA comes from the Mesolithic Balkans or western Anatolia, and barely 5% could be of other Mesolithic European origin (haplogroups H1 and U5). Interestingly the proportion of Mesolithic European lineages slowly but progressively rises over time, showing that more intermarriages took place between farmers and hunter-gatherers.

In summary, LBK men belonged essentially to E-M34, E-V13, G2a, J1, J2b and T. I expect 50% to 70% of J1 + T + G2a + E-M34, and and 30% to 50% of E-V13 + J2b. It is not clear yet whether G2a should be considered of Southwest Asian origin like E-M34, J1 and T, or East Mediterranean like E-V13 and J2b. Actually, if G2a originated in Anatolia, the original admixture of its people would be more Caucasian-like or West Asian-like, depending on what admixtures are used.

Based on modern frequencies, E-V13 seems to have been the most numerous lineage, but that may also be because R1b Indo-Europeans picked up E-V13 lineages in the Balkans before moving to central and western Europe. We won't know until we have hundreds of Y-DNA samples from the LBK culture.

There might also have been minorities of J2a and R1b-V88, especially considering that LBK farmers kept mainly cattle and pigs, rather than goats and sheep, and cattle were supposedly domesticated by R1b people in eastern Anatolia.


A look at modern distributions

Looking at the distribution maps of these haplogroups in Central Europe today, the distribution of J1 is particularly striking, being found in isolation in northern Germany and western Poland, as if cut off from southern Germany by the Indo-European migrations, notably the R1b people of the Unetice culture, that would have emerged around the Czech republic, Thuringia and Saxony-Anhalt, and pushed Neolithic farmers to the north and south as they advanced through central Germany. The G2a map is not representative as most G2a men in central and northern Europe today are G2a3b1, a lineage brought from the northwest Caucasus and the Pontic Steppe by the Indo-Europeans, alongside R1a and R1b. I lack the data to make a map of G2a excluding G2a3b1 at the moment, but I expect to find isolated pockets in northern Germany too, as well as southern Germany and Switzerland.

G2a men might well have been native to Anatolia during the Late Glacial period, in which case they would have only converged with the J1 and T from the Fertile Crescent during the Neolithic period. We could even imagine that J1 and T were the first cereal farmers in the Levant, while G2a domesticated goats and sheep, the two groups converging around modern Syria and southern Turkey. However various tribes might have had widely different frequencies of J1+T (presumably more in societies of cereal cultivators) vs G2a (higher among pure herders, especially in mountain areas unsuitable to cereal cultivation). Such a dichotomy explains why G2a is so much more common today in mountainous parts of Europe and the Near East.

If that is the case, it would make sense that the LBK farmers should have been predominantly J1 and T, with only a minority of G2a.

The history of E-M34 (the Near Eastern and European branch of E-M123) is probably more closely linked to that of J1 and T, being most common in the Fertile Crescent. Its distribution in Europe is more Mediterranean and Atlantic though, hinting that E-M34 spread mostly through the Mediterranean route, then expanded to Western Europe through the Megalithic cultures. But an important Roman redistribution cannot be excluded considering that near absence of E-M34 outside the borders of the Roman Empire. Therefore E-M34 might be more of an Etruscan, Greek and Roman marker than a Neolithic one in Europe, notwithstanding its Middle Eastern roots. I do not doubt that E-M34 was found among Neolithic farmers from the Near East, but founder effects might have privileged J1 and T among LBK farmers, E-M34 being only a minor lineage.


UPDATE: I have created a map of the LBK culture.

LBK_culture.png
 
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My guess is that J2b stayed in southern Anatolia, between Euphrates and Tigris during LGM, and G2a arrived in western Anatolia after the LGM (together with F3).
G2a were fisherman (cfr later Cardium pottery distirbution), J2b was one of the first farmers 11500 years ago.
E-V13 may have arrived in the Middle East 14000 years ago, when the Nile valley flooded due to increased rainfall in northern Africa.
G2a and J2b arrived in Thesaly, Greece some 9000 years ago, the area was virtualy uninhabited before that.
From Greece agriculture spread north into the Balkans 8200 years ago (the Balkans were uninhabited before that too). LBK and Cardium pottery, 7500 years ago were probably mostly newcomers from western Anatolia (most G2a, maybe some E-V13).
E-M34 came only to Asia with the proto-Semitic invasion, some 5300 years ago, they were the ancestors of the Akkadians and the Amorites.
 
The history of E-M34 (the Near Eastern and European branch of E-M123) is probably more closely linked to that of J1 and T, being most common in the Fertile Crescent. Its distribution in Europe is more Mediterranean and Atlantic though, hinting that E-M34 spread mostly through the Mediterranean route, then expanded to Western Europe through the Megalithic cultures.

E-M34 has always been sort of a mystery. Its parent E-M123* has been found less than 1% only in Portugal, Bulgaria, and Jordania. Paradoxically no samples were found in: Israel, Palestine, Anatolia, Crete etc. This hints to a pre-Neolithic spread of E-M123* in Europe, before farming; maybe it came in the Balkans with E-M78*, the father of European born E-v13.
The modern samples of E-M34 found in Europe and Middle-East are mostly different variations of E-M84. Unless we want to speculate that E-M34 was also born in Europe, I would say it was part of a second migration during the Neolithic Farmers or later?
One possibility is first it was Phoenician 1000-500 BC.
As the Phoenicians colonized Greece 800-400 BC, it became ancient Greek.
Then from the ancient Greeks it got into the neighboring Illyrians/Albanians 500 BC.
Then it spread with the Greeks and Albanians in Italy 400-200 BC, at Magna Grecia and the Illyrian settlements in Adriatic Italy.
Then it spread with the Romans everywhere in Europe during the rise of Rome, after 300 BC.
In the mean time, the Phoenicians had already taken it in North Africa, hence its presence in ex-Carthagenian settlements.
I would say this group is always associated with the spread of more advanced civilizations.
 
it would be interesting to have an age estimate for E-M123 and E-M34
 
@maciano

If you cannot split J1 and T ( ydna) then map it for reference.

- I envisaged your LBK theory as being a Pontid people ( people around the black sea area ), and not so much a more southern Mesopotamian people , with T2 mtdna being involved ( with K ) from modern Romania and Bulgarian areas.

- why no P ydna, its found still today in Spain , Italy and Greece............is there none north of the alps?
 
E-M34 has always been sort of a mystery. Its parent E-M123* has been found less than 1% only in Portugal, Bulgaria, and Jordania. Paradoxically no samples were found in: Israel, Palestine, Anatolia, Crete etc. This hints to a pre-Neolithic spread of E-M123* in Europe, before farming; maybe it came in the Balkans with E-M78*, the father of European born E-v13.
The modern samples of E-M34 found in Europe and Middle-East are mostly different variations of E-M84. Unless we want to speculate that E-M34 was also born in Europe, I would say it was part of a second migration during the Neolithic Farmers or later?
One possibility is first it was Phoenician 1000-500 BC.
As the Phoenicians colonized Greece 800-400 BC, it became ancient Greek.
Then from the ancient Greeks it got into the neighboring Illyrians/Albanians 500 BC.
Then it spread with the Greeks and Albanians in Italy 400-200 BC, at Magna Grecia and the Illyrian settlements in Adriatic Italy.
Then it spread with the Romans everywhere in Europe during the rise of Rome, after 300 BC.
In the mean time, the Phoenicians had already taken it in North Africa, hence its presence in ex-Carthagenian settlements.
I would say this group is always associated with the spread of more advanced civilizations.

If J1 and T ydna as per the madagscar paper where already sailing in the indian ocean, then these markers ( with other markers) would have already sailed as far a spain centuries before the "phoenicians" arrived.

granted , the phoenicians have been found as far away as southern ireland
 
Obviously G2a (although Ray Banks disagree, seeing it as native to Mesolithic Mediterranean Europe),

"Mesolithic Mediterranean European" which was not found in any Mesolithic European sites but suddenly appeared in Neolithic sites and has it's highest diversity and close cousins in Western Asia. :)


No disrespect but this theory sounds very unlikely in my ears.
 
"Mesolithic Mediterranean European" which was not found in any Mesolithic European sites but suddenly appeared in Neolithic sites and has it's highest diversity and close cousins in Western Asia. :)


No disrespect but this theory sounds very unlikely in my ears.

Just to clarify, I don't think that G2a is Mesolithic European.
 
Just to clarify, I don't think that G2a is Mesolithic European.


I know it is Ray Banks theory. It is not impossible that there might have been some individual cases of G2a in Mesolithic Europe but the core appears much more Neolithic than anything else.
 
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I know it is Ray Banks theory. It is not impossible that there might have been some G2a in Mesolithic Europe but the core appears much more Neolithic than anything else.

then the people from the Franchtti cave in the Argolis Bay would have been G2a
those people lived there at least 20000 years ago, probably even before LGM, I think that is before the arrival of G2a
I would guess they were IJ or I
they may have gone extinct and be replaced by G2a fishermen some 9000 years ago
 
Based on modern frequencies, E-V13 seems to have been the most numerous lineage, but that may also be because R1b Indo-Europeans picked up E-V13 lineages in the Balkans before moving to central and western Europe. We won't know until we have hundreds of Y-DNA samples from the LBK culture.

There might also have been minorities of J2a and R1b-V88, especially considering that LBK farmers kept mainly cattle and pigs, rather than goats and sheep, and cattle were supposedly domesticated by R1b people in eastern Anatolia.
Maciamo I've read your R1b summary, but theory of Indo-European origin of R1b in Europe does not convince me. I am interested what is your opinion about Natalie Myres's work(2010)? She stated that R1b was spread by LBK people. Georg Busby(2011) questioned the idea of drawing dates of origin for R1b, and stated that this haplogroup is maybe even older then Myres results, but he confirmed that the highest frequencies of R1b subgroups in Europe corresponds to spread of Neolithic cultures. So if they are right then in LBK culture R1b people could had been playing leading role. If so other haplogroups like J1, E-M34 and T are rather not likely to be connected to Early European Farmers in Central and Western Europe. Mayby they are sign of later migration ater R1b made its founder effect.
 
Maciamo I've read your R1b summary, but theory of Indo-European origin of R1b in Europe does not convince me. I am interested what is your opinion about Natalie Myres's work(2010)? She stated that R1b was spread by LBK people. Georg Busby(2011) questioned the idea of drawing dates of origin for R1b, and stated that this haplogroup is maybe even older then Myres results, but he confirmed that the highest frequencies of R1b subgroups in Europe corresponds to spread of Neolithic cultures. So if they are right then in LBK culture R1b people could had been playing leading role. If so other haplogroups like J1, E-M34 and T are rather not likely to be connected to Early European Farmers in Central and Western Europe. Mayby they are sign of later migration ater R1b made its founder effect.

no R1b ancient DNA has been found among farming communities in Europe, it is only found among Indo-European bronze age communities
most found among farming communities in Europe were G2a and F ( I suspect that was F3)
I wonder however how much of that DNA from farming communities has survived
todays distribution of G2a and F in Europe may the result be of later migrations, and I think the same goes for J1, E-M34 and T
 
J1, e-m34 & t

no R1b ancient DNA has been found among farming communities in Europe, it is only found among Indo-European bronze age communities
most found among farming communities in Europe were G2a and F ( I suspect that was F3)
I wonder however how much of that DNA from farming communities has survived
todays distribution of G2a and F in Europe may the result be of later migrations, and I think the same goes for J1, E-M34 and T


That is why it is important to dna test ancient dna in Europe and elsewhere. J1 supposed to have arisen in Eastern Anatolia probably around the shores of Lake Van, but without ancient dna it is just an interesting speculation. Haplogroups I and J had the same parentage yet no one has discovered why haplogroup I became European and haplogroup J became synonymous with latter day Middle Eastern groups, and people of dubious origins as in the Jews. Maybe ancient dna can provide and answer.

It seems everywhere where farming took hold and more importantly started civilization, the farmers and later immigrants have totally changed the haplogroups that were present before farming and post farming as in the reduction of haplogroup G found in farmers and haplogroup G in modern Europeans.
 
no R1b ancient DNA has been found among farming communities in Europe, it is only found among Indo-European bronze age communities
most found among farming communities in Europe were G2a and F ( I suspect that was F3)
I wonder however how much of that DNA from farming communities has survived
todays distribution of G2a and F in Europe may the result be of later migrations, and I think the same goes for J1, E-M34 and T

Please give me a list of all the Neolithic Y DNA that has been successfully tested from those areas where R1b is most common today (Wales, Ireland and the Basque country). Oh, that's right, there aren't any such samples. And absence of evidence isn't proof of anything.

I have read Maciamo's comments about the apparent age of different subclades, etc. being evidence of a bronze age date for R1b in Europe, and perhaps he will be proven right in time. But I want to see some actual Y DNA samples from the Neolithic, taken from the crucial areas, before I will give up on the idea of Neolithic R1b in Europe.
 
Please give me a list of all the Neolithic Y DNA that has been successfully tested from those areas where R1b is most common today (Wales, Ireland and the Basque country). Oh, that's right, there aren't any such samples. And absence of evidence isn't proof of anything.

I have read Maciamo's comments about the apparent age of different subclades, etc. being evidence of a bronze age date for R1b in Europe, and perhaps he will be proven right in time. But I want to see some actual Y DNA samples from the Neolithic, taken from the crucial areas, before I will give up on the idea of Neolithic R1b in Europe.

you have the same reasoning as believers because we can not prove it does not exist there, so it is.
Obviously we can not prove this pad that does not exist especially if it does not existe. But the problem is that you denied or glossed over what exists.
You're not credible way.
Be careful not to look like a famous Russian politician. :))
 
you have the same reasoning as believers because we can not prove it does not exist there, so it is.
Obviously we can not prove this pad that does not exist especially if it does not existe. But the problem is that you denied or glossed over what exists.
You're not credible way.
Be careful not to look like a famous Russian politician. :))

I have absolutely no idea what it is that you're trying to say about my comments.
 
I have absolutely no idea what it is that you're trying to say about my comments.

I think he's basically making the same point about asking to prove a negative I made here.
 
I think he's basically making the same point about asking to prove a negative I made here.

I'm not asking anyone to prove a negative. I'm asking people not to claim that we have a definite answer before we have data. You do see the difference, I hope.
 
I'm not asking anyone to prove a negative. I'm asking people not to claim that we have a definite answer before we have data. You do see the difference, I hope.

I agree

Too many people want R1b to be the first in Central Europe, first to be BB culture etc etc
 
no R1b ancient DNA has been found among farming communities in Europe, it is only found among Indo-European bronze age communities
most found among farming communities in Europe were G2a and F ( I suspect that was F3)
I wonder however how much of that DNA from farming communities has survived
todays distribution of G2a and F in Europe may the result be of later migrations, and I think the same goes for J1, E-M34 and T
How much studies do we have? I do not remember exactly it was two or three. But it was found in BB culture.
There is alot of studies to be done before drawing conclusions, especially when studies of modern population suggests that R1b should be found there.
 

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