Just the opposite (R1a, R1b, IE)

[berun]

New revelations:

First R1b entered Italy from the Near East at least 14,000 years (they came as hunter-gatherers):

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...Ice-Age-Europe?p=479360&viewfull=1#post479360

So another fact that gives to "IE from R1b/Yamnaya" theory a more difficult dribbling...

 

[berun]

7500-4500, really ???

From THE FIRST RESULTS OF GENETIC TYPING OF LOCAL POPULATION AND ANCIENT HUMAN BONESIN UPPER DVINA REGION: "Sample № А4 is a tooth from maxilla, found during excava-tions of B.S.Korotkevich on the hillfort Anashkino. e hori-zon, where it was found, is dated to VIII-V c. BC (Короткевич 2013)."

 

[Goga]

From "Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a phylogeography": "Using the 8 R1a lineages, with an average length of 48 SNPs accumulated since the common
ancestor, we estimate the splintering of R1a-M417 to have occurred rather recently, B5800 years ago (95% CI: 4800–6800). [...] Star-like branching
near the root of the Asian subtree suggests rapid growth and dispersal."

Moreover the data suggested by the authors is around the data of Indoeuropean-just-before-splitting...

This is what I mean. R1a in Karelia has nothing to do with R1a-M417 or the Indo-Europeans in general. R1a was widespread all over the Eurasia before the Indo-Europeans.


" The diversification downstream of M417 occurred ~5800 years ago "

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n1/full/ejhg201450a.html


So this happened even before the Yamnaya culture was born and was maybe at the very beginning of the Maykop culture.


Yamnaya culture is max 5500 years old, while the diversification downstream of M417 occurred about 5800 years ago. By the time when R1b-Z2103 from Maykop migrated into the Yamnaya Horizon (5500 YPB), the Y-DNA hg. R1a-Z283 & R1a-Z93 already existed.

I do agree with you that the splitting of R1a-M417 occurred around the beginning of the Maykop culture, but it is still not yet established where that split happened. Or that it has anything to do with Maykop/Yamnaya. The diversification happened not during the Yamnaya, but before, that for sure...

 

[berun]

R1a was widespread all over Eurasia before IE?

You try to relate the R1a split with millenial cultures but i try to relate such split with the date that common IE started to diverge.

By the way CW (2900-2300) seems to expand eastwards direct to the Yamnaya core (3500-2300), more exactly the CW subculture of Fatyanovo (3200-2300); that's another fact difficult to dribble for R1b = IE, as R1a was migrating where it's supposed that R1b were departing to the west...



map from The Bronze Era of the Forest Belt of the USSR (1987).

also it's good to take into account that the DNA samples from Yamnaya date after such process, so caution if the Yamnaya DNA in CW is not in fact CW DNA in Yamnaya...

 

[Goga]

R1a was widespread all over Eurasia before IE?

You try to relate the R1a split with millenial cultures but i try to relate such split with the date that common IE started to diverge.

Yes, you can take me as an example. As an Ezdi Kurd I'm native to the Northern Mesopotamia, Shengal (Sinjar) region of Kurdistan. My archaic ancestors never lived in the Steppes

I belong to a Y-DNA hg. R1a* which is not part and is older than M17 (R1a1a). With other words, R1a is NOT native to the Steppes. Because the R1a* to which I do belong is NOT from the Steppes.

" Based on spatial distributions and diversity patterns within the R1a-M420 clade, particularly rare basal branches detected primarily within Iran and eastern Turkey, we conclude that the initial episodes of haplogroup R1a diversification likely occurred in the vicinity of present-day Iran. "

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n1/full/ejhg201450a.html



Ancient R1a in the Western Eurasian Steppes predate any Indo-Europeans (movement) by THOUSANDS of years



There are 2 things what you have to remember.

1) Yamnaya culture was the OLDEST Indo-European culture of Europe.
2) Scientists have proven with auDNA (autosomal) that around the Yamnaya Period there was a migration from East (Yamnaya) into West (Europe).

 

[berun]

Being a kurd then being also indoeuropean it is to expect Y DNA related to indoeuropeans in your people, but of course your own DNA could be more old than such episode, but as to be sure that R1a was from your land, it would be better to know where his brother R1b grew up, but my nose points to your area anyway. Otherwise it's normal to have more genetic diversity in mountains as compared to plain steppes or north Europeans plains, and for diversity it's not a guarantee of oldnes, you can check the romance languages' diversity peak around the Alps....

I don't know Yamnayan writen texts as to be sure they were IE, do you have?

For steppe DNA, as said, CW and R1a was roaming in the area... as CW cows...

 

[Goga]

R1a and R1b are more than 15000 years old. At that time of period there was no such thing as Indo-Europeans. I don't know what kind of language they spoke, but maybe a very, very ancient extinct archaic human language.

PIE is maybe max 8000 years old.

R1a & R1b were already widespread all over the Eurasia in the prehistoric times, before the so called Indo-Europeans ever came into existence.





The oldest European Kurgans you can find in the Yamnaya Horizon. Then those Kurgans were spread to the West inside Europe and to the Eastern Steppes. Kurgans in Yamnaya Horizon predate kurgans in CW. Also auDNA was spread from Yamnaya into CW. CW was for a huge part (maybe 70-75%) Yamnaya.

 

[berun]

OK for the 15000 years of split, not the same language by sure, so the question relies to choose IE = R1a or IE = R1b, no more candidates in the arena.

Extrended R in prehistoric times is another statement as that that i understood (paleolithic times).

For kurgans as IE tester: what to do with kurgans in Maykop (north Caucasus)? in Kura-Araxes (south Caucasus)? some more older than Yamnaya itself:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maikop_kurgan

following the case that Kurgans are related 100% to language you might take for granted that Yamnaya spoke Circassian...

As to explain better CW DNA in Yamnaya take this example: you get DNA from 100 Quebequois of 1750 and compare it to actual French DNA; who would say that there was a colonization of Europe from America?

By the way the area of the samples in discussion is in a corridor (Volga river), and a cultural crossroad, so expect biased results ever.

 

[berun]

Circassian barrow, the last kurganists... and the first ones?

This Circassian village had existed for centuries in this location, up until 150 years ago. There are still vestiges of this settlement. In the Betta forests there are ancient wells, some of which still welling out potable water (Photos 6, 7). A wine cellar with a still intact roof can also be found in the environs (Photos 8, 9). Two groups of ancient tombs of Circassians are found in the forests (Photo 10). The mediæval tombs are in the form of small mounds, and they date back to XV-XVI centuries AD. The tops of the burial mounds are covered with "shells" of earth and stones. Mounds were erected on graves in accordance with the ancient Circassian burial customs and rituals. The size of the mound indicated the status of the deceased, the larger the mound, the higher the status. The status of these tombs is not known. Are they still intact after all these years? Or, have they been opened and tampered with? And if so, what happened to the “occupiers” of these tombs and their possessions? Perhaps they are kept at some museum. At any rate, the tombs are presently under state protection.

 

[LeBrok]

OK for the 15000 years of split, not the same language by sure, so the question relies to choose IE = R1a or IE = R1b, no more candidates in the arena.

Extrended R in prehistoric times is another statement as that that i understood (paleolithic times).

For kurgans as IE tester: what to do with kurgans in Maykop (north Caucasus)? in Kura-Araxes (south Caucasus)? some more older than Yamnaya itself:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maikop_kurgan

following the case that Kurgans are related 100% to language you might take for granted that Yamnaya spoke Circassian...

As to explain better CW DNA in Yamnaya take this example: you get DNA from 100 Quebequois of 1750 and compare it to actual French DNA; who would say that there was a colonization of Europe from America?

By the way the area of the samples in discussion is in a corridor (Volga river), and a cultural crossroad, so expect biased results ever.

View attachment 7716

We all posted our opinions about IE language here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31324-Where-did-proto-IE-language-start

 

[Greying Wanderer]

Berun

The mad idea that R1a could be the real carrier of IE

I think it's possible the PIE in the Pontic steppe expanded a limited amount east and west and acted as a catalyst that lead to the main, more R1a and CW population IE expansion that went all the way to India.

Tomenable

The problem with R1b-L11 (P312 & U106) expanding from Yamna, is that it shows a West->East distribution:

This seeming west->east distribution has always been a sticking point with me. My pet theory (that copper workers went west in small numbers, had a dramatic population increase along the Atlantic coast due to LP and then expanded from the West) developed because the distribution seemed west->east.

Although now ancient R1b has been found in Italy I'm not so sure.

R1a / R1b existing all across northern Eurasia from the north European plain to Siberia and then sliced into separate refuges by the LGM? So multiple lineages from multiple refuges?

Tomenable

First R1b entered Italy from the Near East at least 14,000 years (they came as hunter-gatherers):

That's just the usual default assumption where everything must come from the middle east.

That assumption is a recurring problem imo.

 

[berun]

LeBrok OK for the old posts, the link may serve as continuation.

Coming back with more proofs/problems: why IE being in the steppes had words for: werwer- ‘squirrel’, ?*tworkˆo´s ‘boar’, *h1elh1e¯n ‘red deer’, *lo´k ˆ s ‘salmonid, salmon(trout), *dhonu- ‘fir’, *pe´ukˆ s ‘(Scotch) pine, conifer’, *k ˆ o´ss ‘(Scotch) pine’, *pit(u)- ‘(some form of) conifer’,...

 

[berun]

Another fact/problem: R1b being the IE carrier is first recorded in Italy just some 2000 years after the R1b formation... and without any steppe track (no basal Eusoasian), moreover he had Near Eastern origins, and that fits well with V88 in Africa which expanded there some 7000 years ago... from Near Eastern; even there was also V88 in the Pyrenees, there are a mesolithic R1b found in the Volga which is supposed to stand for all IE / R1b classification, but it's a biased example? he was next to the Samara culture, and taking the example of Africa it could be not a native haplo: in "Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages" there is Bantu Y-DNA in "paleolithic" Pygmies but almost no Pygmi Y-DNA in Bantus (instead Pygmi mtDNA is found among Bantus but the contrary is not seen). So all it gives to R1a more chances to be the carrier of IE.

 

[berun]

Sorry for the "spam"... but i forgot to add up the bear, PIE *rktos, I'm not a biologist but i doubt that a bear could survive more than a month in the steppes, what to hunt? what to grasp?

 

[LeBrok]

LeBrok OK for the old posts, the link may serve as continuation.

Coming back with more proofs/problems: why IE being in the steppes had words for: werwer- ‘squirrel’, ?*tworkˆo´s ‘boar’, *h1elh1e¯n ‘red deer’, *lo´k ˆ s ‘salmonid, salmon(trout), *dhonu- ‘fir’, *pe´ukˆ s ‘(Scotch) pine, conifer’, *k ˆ o´ss ‘(Scotch) pine’, *pit(u)- ‘(some form of) conifer’,...

Why is that? All of these lived in Northern and Western Yamnaya.

 

[LeBrok]

Another fact/problem: R1b being the IE carrier is first recorded in Italy just some 2000 years after the R1b formation... and without any steppe track (no basal Eusoasian), moreover he had Near Eastern origins, and that fits well with V88 in Africa which expanded there some 7000 years ago... from Near Eastern; even there was also V88 in the Pyrenees, there are a mesolithic R1b found in the Volga which is supposed to stand for all IE / R1b classification, but it's a biased example? he was next to the Samara culture, and taking the example of Africa it could be not a native haplo: in "Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages" there is Bantu Y-DNA in "paleolithic" Pygmies but almost no Pygmi Y-DNA in Bantus (instead Pygmi mtDNA is found among Bantus but the contrary is not seen). So all it gives to R1a more chances to be the carrier of IE.

If IE culture started in Yamnaya 6kya, it is obvious that not all the R1b and R1a subclades were IEs.

 

[berun]

As far as i know Yamna people were nomadic and lived in the steppe

 

[berun]

I explain better: only a bunch of R1a (or R1b) must be the carriers of PIE, the other clades no, of course.

 

[LeBrok]

I explain better: only a bunch of R1a (or R1b) must be the carriers of PIE, the other clades no, of course.

Maybe for language, but whole culture was based on developments of neighbors close by, like copper, tools, agriculture, etc. Maybe even horse domestication was learned from Botai people.

 

[berun]

Another fact/problem as to denounce the "tale" of Yamnaya as the source of IE is DNA. Authors of "Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe" state that CW people had around 4/5 of their aDNA from a Yamnaya-like population, impliying a "population turnover". Ok, steppes are less peopled right? Let's deliver 1 milion Yamnayans there, let's suppoose that pre-CW (unhabiting 1/4 of Europe) was peopled by 10 milion people... and then CW get's 4/5 of Yamna genes, all right. The Bronze Age result of all it is that half of the DNA was from Yamnaya, but the unique way to get such relation is an event of plannified extermination or that Yamnayans had an extraordinary procreation rate. In fact as to get the half it would be necessary to exterminate 5000000 pre-CW (simple maths, sorry). If we apply procreation rates, it implies that from a milion Yamnayans we might get some 10 milion in few generations as to have such half. Quite extraordinary both events.

The tale reaches the maximal complexity after reading in "Population genomics of Bronze Age Eurasia" that:

The close affinity we observe between peoples of Corded Ware and
Sintashta cultures (Extended Data Fig. 2a) suggests similar genetic
sources of the two, which contrasts with previous hypotheses placing
the origin of Sintastha in Asia or the Middle East28. Although we
cannot formally test whether the Sintashta derives directly from an
eastward migration of Corded Ware peoples or if they share common
ancestry with an earlier steppe population, the presence of European
Neolithic farmer ancestry in both the Corded Ware and the Sintashta,
combined with the absence of Neolithic farmer ancestry in the earlier
Yamnaya, would suggest the former being more probable (Fig. 2b and
Extended Data Table 1).
...
The Andronovo culture, which arose
in Central Asia during the later Bronze Age (Fig. 1), is genetically
closely related to the Sintashta peoples (Extended Data Fig. 2c), and
clearly distinct from both Yamnaya and Afanasievo (Fig. 3b and
Extended Data Table 1). Therefore, Andronovo represents a temporal
and geographical extension of the Sintashta gene pool.

Both Sintashta and Andronovo have provided R1a Y-DNA results, and no R1b yet.