Just the opposite (R1a, R1b, IE)

[Athiudisc]

It seems a bit unlikely that a man (let's call him L23) had a great-great-grandson (let's call him Z2103) and another great-great-grandson (let's call him L51) two-thousand miles apart from each other over six-thousand years ago. Not impossible, sure, but that's a long way to resettle in less than a century. YFull puts the two younger clades as contemporaneous, around 6,300 years ago.

Genetiker's theory ignores the fact that modern distribution isn't indicative of origin, especially given known population movements in eastern Europe in historical times that would tend to obfuscate the existence of previous groups. It also ignores the fact that our Yamna samples are from a very small portion of a rather large horizon. This is just another iteration of their "R1b were the megalithic people from an Iberian refugium" idea, an idea popular a decade ago but largely abandoned today due to genetic evidence.

 

[MOESAN]

Concerning Genetiker, if I'm interested in some of his poolings, I don't follow his opinions about R1b born in Paleo West Europe, with my present knowledge (of absence of).
Concerning L23, L51 and Z2103, don't find my reasoning is so wrong. I think as others L23 was well settled at some stage in Eastern Europe-Central Eurasia, rather North the Caucasus, so at the center of the total amplitude and I don't see why the fact L51 and Z2103 were contemporeanous and (supposed) far one from another could contradict that. By the fact, they were not so far, because at evidence L51 was Eastern Euro too. I don't rely too much upon too precise datations, that said it seems there is some accord about a recent demographic "boom" for Y-R1a and Y-R1b which could check the period between 4500 and 1300 BC, surely Chalco-Bronze Age.

 

[berun]

What be have now "sure" is that L51 was concealed somewhere, you think that in the steppes by geographic proximity, but it is possible also that they were concealed in the west from a mesolithic population or even in a neolithic population; in fact now I'm more near for the last option after looking at data: we see now how from south Caucasus there was migration to the steppes (with the Kura-Araxes R1b?), how from Levant there was a migration to Africa (R1b-V88), and how there was also R1b among Cardials (but V88)... and precisely this one was found in a cave among other two non-G2a men, in a valley historicaly being of herding economy (but nowadays it's cultivated American crops as potatoes and maize); we can miss other herder R1b unsampled as Neolithic samples come from farmer populations, and herdsmen were a minority by then (but Megalithism or Bell Beaker, cultures linked to herdsmen, would have changed proportions). Of course there are other many secondary evidences that point to a west origin for R1b and which give doubts about R1b in the steppes.

As for the "father" L23, we see actual concentration in... Caucasus... were also it is found ancient R2, so that now all arrows point to Anatolia / Caucasus as the origin of all R1b (also the Villabruna guy had a levantine component or so)

 

[berun]

There's another blogger doubting the "steppe R1b":

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.es/2016/01/basque-r1b-df27.html

The claims about this major European lineage being original from Central Europe or even Eastern Europe are totally inconsistent with the data we have: they are nothing but wishful Indoeuropeanist thinking and totally within the realm of pseudoscience.

In fact, other than the locality of the "L-51 family", it has no sense to find R1b Bell Beakers in Germany almost just arrived and to pretend that they lost all their original Y-DNA for the local in few generations.

 

[Tomenable]

The blogger cited by Berun wrote:

While the TMRCA (time to most recent common ancestor) for R1b-Z2103 is 7,400–5,600 years, the TMRCA for R1b-L51 is 7,600–5,900 years, so R1b-L51 is older than R1b-Z2103

This may be true regarding L51*, but remember that P312 and U106 branches of R1b are all L11+.

And it seems that L11 (aka L151) is at least 900 years younger (TMRCA) than its "father" subclade L51.

L51(xL11) is rather very rare today, the majority of West European R1b belongs to L11+ subclades.

 

[berun]

The date of L51 being 5600-3900 BC is inside the time of neolithization and megalithism in Western Europe, if L11 appeared 900 years after it would be more near to the Megalithic expansion than to the Bell Beaker one.

And as for the Bell Beaker samples of around 2500 BC, this people had a CW substrate, which was mainly R1a, but if I follow R1b = IE i would need to think that their previous Neolithic Y-DNA changed absolutely in few generations, and what is more incredible, the Y-DNA that was imposded over them was from a rare clade in CW, so i can't, i can't with that.

Thereafter we have L51 in countries high in L11+, not in the steppes but precisely were the western R1b is strong: Ireland, France, Italy, Portugal...
how to deal with it if it appeared 7000 years ago in the steppe? I would not say it is pseudoscience, but realy it has no sense at all.

 

[Athiudisc]

Another "R1b is from a western European refugium dating to the last Ice Age!" blogger finds the steppe-origin of IE R1b doubtful? This is absolutely shocking information! What a red alarm!

 

[berun]

be happy my friend

:29:

 

[Tomenable]

"R1b is from a western European refugium dating to the last Ice Age!"

Impossible IMO. But I wouldn't exclude Balkan Ice Age refugium at this point.

(Villabruna was probably a singleton in Italy, who came from the Balkans).

I suppose that the Varna culture could be R1b-dominated, but we will see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_culture

 

[johen]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_culture

But it was not the burial type of steppe R1b

 

[Cato]

I agree with those who say that R1b came in the Iberian peninsula from the Near East and then expanded from there to Central Europe with the Bell Beakers. Physical anthropology show that the Dinaric type, strongly associated everywhere in Europe with the Beakers, first appeared in Spain/Portugal in the copper age.

https://digitalis-dsp.uc.pt/bitstream/10316.2/35195/1/CAPvol7f_6.pdf?ln=en

IMO they acquired steppe-like dna after they mixed heavily with the Corded people in Germany..

will see..

 

[johen]

I agree with those who say that R1b came in the Iberian peninsula from the Near East and then expanded from there to Central Europe with the Bell Beakers. Physical anthropology show that the Dinaric type, strongly associated everywhere in Europe with the Beakers, first appeared in Spain/Portugal in the copper age.

https://digitalis-dsp.uc.pt/bitstream/10316.2/35195/1/CAPvol7f_6.pdf?ln=en

IMO they acquired steppe-like dna after they mixed heavily with the Corded people in Germany..

will see..

Was it possible for R1b guy to come alone in Spain 5,000bc, even if the other non-indigenous y chromosomes were found there?
2xQ, R1b-v88, R1a, O2b were found in there 5,000bc. I don't think they all gathered around Spain from Near East, Central Asia, East Asia. I think they were coming together.

 

[Athiudisc]

I wouldn't exclude Balkan Ice Age refugium at this point.

Nor I.

I agree with those who say that R1b came in the Iberian peninsula from the Near East and then expanded from there to Central Europe with the Bell Beakers.

I don't find it unlikely that some R1b arrived this way, but I don't believe it's that simple. I'm still thinking some came in through the north.

 

[berun]

Another "yellow alarm" lighted after looking at the ADMIXTURE results provided in The genetics of an early Neolithic pastoralist from the Zagros, Iran.



Andronovo and Sintashta are showing Anatolia_Neolithic admixture not found among Yamnayans; of course the same admixture is found among CW. Two options are left so: CW founded Sintashta, or the Sintashta people had a substrate with Anatolian_N genes... of course the last option is not supported and the first option favours:

Sintashta material culture shows the influence of the late Abashevo culture, a collection of Corded Ware settlements in the forest steppe zone north of the Sintashta region that were also predominantly pastoralist.^[7] Allentoft et al. (2015) found close autosomal genetic relationship between peoples of Corded Ware culture and Sintashta culture, which "suggests similar genetic sources of the two," and may imply that "the Sintashta derives directly from an eastward migration of Corded Ware peoples."

So what? Indoeuropeans without Yamnayans? realy? Moreover CW was R1a as were almost all Sintashta and Andronovo samples, R1a.

 

[Athiudisc]

If Sintashta was a development of CW, of course they'd have the farmer substrate that CW had as a result of Yamnayans mixing with European farmers. It would be odd if they didn't.

CW wasn't all R1a. We have at least three R1bs popping up from Poland to Sweden in CW thus far. The only one we can refine down is the U106 from southern Sweden, which makes sense given the obvious relationship between U106 and Germanic languages.

My thoughts at present are that, generally speaking, U106 spread along the north (Yamnaya->CW) and P312 more southerly (Yamnaya->Vucedol->BB). Not entirely discretely or without overlap, but still.

In any event, none of it means "Indo-Europeans without Yamnaya," as CW most definitely has a rather large chunk of Yamnayan ancestry...

 

[Tomenable]

CW wasn't all R1a. We have at least three R1bs popping up from Poland to Sweden in CW thus far.

Only one R1b from CW - the one from Sweden (U106) - is a safe one.

The 2nd one is low-quality (like ATP3 from Spain), and the 3rd one is a false R1b, which was in fact R1a-M198*:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5605-R1b-in-Corded-Ware&p=125343&viewfull=1#post125343

Quote:
=================
"Mathieson et al are wrong. I1534 is not R1b. CTS11468 and many other R1b specific SNPs are negative for this sample.

I1534 has the following negative R1b SNPs:

L1349/PF6268/YSC0000231-
CTS2702/PF6099/Z8132-
CTS2703-
L1345/PF6266/YSC0000224-
CTS9018/FGC188/PF6484-
CTS2466/PF6453-
CTS2704/PF6100-
CTS8052/FGC45/PF6473-
L749/PF6476/YSC0000290-
PF6496/YSC0000213-
L1350/PF6505/YSC0000225-
PF6507-
CTS11468/FGC49/PF6520-
CTS12972/FGC52/PF6532-

CTS11468 is a mutation from “G” to “T”. All R1b1a2 (R-M269) have “T” in this position. I1534 has 1”G” read.

I am looking at the actual reads from bam files.

It is easy to explain.

A difference between Reference Sequence and Sample Sequence can arise in 2 cases

1) Ancestral (RS) -> Derived (SS) [positive SNP in SS]
2) Ancestral (SS) -> Derived (RS) [negative SNP in SS]

If there are no differences between Reference Sequence and Sample Sequence that can mean

3) Ancestral -> Derived (RS) = Derived (SS) [positive SNP in SS]
4) Ancestral (RS) = Ancestral (SS) -> Derived [negative SNP in SS]

Probably you know that Reference Sequence is a mix from the actual R1b-P312 (mainly) and G sequences.

As a result, the most of R1b1a2 specific SNPs belong to the variant 3. But in case of CTS11468 we see the variant 2.

However, Mathieson et al have recorded it wrongly as the variant 1."
==================
End of quote

Also:

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i1534/

I1534 Germany Corded Ware R1a1a-M198* calls

Y-SNP calls for I1534

Below are the Y-SNP calls for I1534, a Corded Ware sample from Germany. Positive calls are in bold, and negative calls are in non-bold.

The calls show that I1534 belonged to Y haplogroup R1a1a-M198*.

 

[Cato]

Was it possible for R1b guy to come alone in Spain 5,000bc, even if the other non-indigenous y chromosomes were found there?
2xQ, R1b-v88, R1a, O2b were found in there 5,000bc. I don't think they all gathered around Spain from Near East, Central Asia, East Asia. I think they were coming together.

Did they find R1a in neolithic Spain?

I don't find it unlikely that some R1b arrived this way, but I don't believe it's that simple. I'm still thinking some came in through the north.

What we know is that in the Copper Age there has been movements of "prospectors" (metal seekers) from the Near East to Spain but also in Italy (Rinaldone culture, Gaudo culture etc.)..they are clearly distinguishable from the previous inhabitants of southern Europe (mediterraneans)..they were taller and brachycephals (armenoids/dinarics, like the later Beakers). My thought is that they carried a variety of Haplogroups (not just R1b but also J and others) and for some reason R1b became dominant in Spain and then expanded east with the Beakers.

I don't find unlikely the other option too (that R1b was brought in Europe by the Yamna culture) but at the moment i tend to favor the old theory (Bell Beakers as an intrusive population from the west with near eastern origins)

 

[Tomenable]

Did they find R1a in neolithic Spain?

I don't know anything about this. From which study are these samples mentioned by Johen?

 

[johen]

I don't know anything about this. From which study are these samples mentioned by Johen?

This is not? I misunderstood?

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/europeanneolithicdna.shtml

 

[Athiudisc]

Oh, ye anonymous unhelpful vote.

Only one R1b from CW - the one from Sweden (U106) - is a safe one.

The 2nd one is low-quality (like ATP3 from Spain), and the 3rd one is a false R1b, which was in fact R1a-M198*:

Fair enough on the M198. If we're going to accept ATP3, though, as we tend to do, that brings us down to two CW R1b. Still a minority, but not absent.