Language trees support hybrid model for origin of Indo-European languages

It is the nature of the texts that make decipherement difficult along with the fact that we don't know if the signs had the exact same values as Linear B. If we had texts that were long e.g. like hymns or poetry and knew the values of the signs we would be able to decipher it.

Also the so called Minoans are not 'CHG/Iran Neo', they are mostly ANF derived, over 80% (?)- I don't remember exactly.


Sorry for quoting myself but also not all CHGs were speaking the same language, not all EHGs were speaking the same language etc
Personally I don't associate early IE with CHG but one population assumed to be non-IE having something like ~20 CHG doesn't prove anything.
 
Let's admit that it is true that CHG can be associated with the oldest ancestor of Indo-European but it is obvious that languages evolve continuously, so much so that in a very few thousand years we have very different IE linguistic families. Can a Frenchman and an Iranian understand each other if each speaks his own language? Can a Norwegian and a Greek understand each other if each speaks his own language? No. So it is obvious that when CHG merges with EHG the language that will have prevailed will have been very different from the original and more distant one spoken in time by CHG only.

Non-IE people in Greece who were they made up of? A mix of EEF, CHG and Iran_N? Really difficult to figure out which component their language could come from, as it could very well have been a mix of everything.

You say CHG = PIE and we know Anatolian and Greek were direct descendants of PIE, if CHG+EHG was very different then it could be Balto-Slavic.
 
You say CHG = PIE and we know Anatolian and Greek were direct descendants of PIE, if CHG+EHG was very different then it could be Balto-Slavic.

I think I got lost.

CHG = PIE or IE or ancestor of IE... I'm not the one who say it.

And why should CHG+EHG be Balto-Slavic? When CHG and EHG merged and gave what is called the Steppe ancestral component, the Balto-Slavic languages had not yet been born.
 
Last edited:
"Ancient Greek place-names ending in -νϑ-, suspected of being vestiges of a language spoken in Greece before the arrival of the Greeks."

77HESmrl.jpg


https://twitter.com/KroonenGuus/status/1685964460001763328
 
I think I got lost.

CHG = PIE or IE or ancestor of IE... I'm not the one to say it.

And why should CHG+EHG be Balto-Slavic? When CHG and EHG merged and gave what is called the Steppe ancestral component, the Balto-Slavic languages had not yet been born.

You said "CHG merges with EHG the language that will have prevailed will have been very different from the original", so it couldn't be the same PIE, Greek was a direct descendant of PIE.
 
It is the nature of the texts that make decipherement difficult along with the fact that we don't know if the signs had the exact same values as Linear B. If we had texts that were long e.g. like hymns or poetry and knew the values of the signs we would be able to decipher it.
Also the so called Minoans are not 'CHG/Iran Neo', they are mostly ANF derived, over 80% (?)- I don't remember exactly.

The Minoans are indeed about 20% non-steppe CHG, and the rest being Anatolia_N. Greece_N had a bit less. This shows overtime from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age there was some increase of CHG. Nevertheless, both the northern (Steppe) and Eastern (Armenian) models proposed this.

Personally, I think the Ancient Greeks were formed by the Northern model, with steppe mediated by occasional convenient mixing. The ChL shows a lot of complexity with a gradient from the steppe to the southern Balkans. But ultimately, the genetic profile stayed largely the same (minoan-like), in southern Greece.

To me this makes sense as to why the Greeks put a high premium on autochthony. Their ancestors were largely the same, even before the arrival of the Greek language.
 
"Ancient Greek place-names ending in -νϑ-, suspected of being vestiges of a language spoken in Greece before the arrival of the Greeks."


https://twitter.com/KroonenGuus/status/1685964460001763328

It essentially reflects -nt, which can be IE/ IE related (check similar Anatolian suffixes first of all and the parallels in other languages which exist). With -os or -a etc being Greek suffixes, see how e.g. in Lithuanian Karl Marx becomes Karlas Marxas.

So a name like Korunthos, has a root koru-, the -nt suffix and the Greek -os suffix that was was added when the toponym started being used by people who were speaking Greek proper. Then the original would have been more like Korunt.

And some reconstruct an IE root ǵʰer-

From the firtst we have the following two IE set of words.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/ǵʰórtos

But also see

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:proto-Indo-European/g%CA%B0erd%CA%B0-
 
The Minoans are indeed about 20% non-steppe CHG, and the rest being Anatolia_N. Greece_N had a bit less. This shows overtime from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age there was some increase of CHG. Nevertheless, both the northern (Steppe) and Eastern (Armenian) models proposed this.
Personally, I think the Ancient Greeks were formed by the Northern model, with steppe mediated by occasional convenient mixing. The ChL shows a lot of complexity with a gradient from the steppe to the southern Balkans. But ultimately, the genetic profile stayed largely the same (minoan-like), in southern Greece.
To me this makes sense as to why the Greeks put a high premium on autochthony. Their ancestors were largely the same, even before the arrival of the Greek language.

Just exactly where we would expect much of the ancestry going back to primarily the Neolithic with minor augmentation towards the Bronze Age (i.e. Yamnaya : minion 1 to 10 ratio)

Autochthons are reported in the mythology of the following regions: In Attica: Amphictyon, Cecrops I, Cranaus, Erichthonius, Periphas. In Boeotia: Ogyges, Alalcomenes, Spartoi. In the Peloponnese: Pelasgus of Arcadia, Lelex of Laconia and Aras of Phliasia. Finally, in Atlantis, Evenor.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autochthon_(ancient_Greece)
 
Distance to:Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
6.60228748Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL004_71.12%
8.19977439Gumelnița_ChL:pIE069
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12.25832370Gumelnița_ChL:pIE014
12.38067446Varna_ChL:VAR016


Distance to:Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017
6.77372866Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL004_71.12%
7.57697829Gumelnița_ChL:pIE026
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Distance to:Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017
5.42860940Gumelnița_ChL:pIE008
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10.03239254Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048


Distance to:Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017
11.31445977Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
11.61591581Gumelnița_ChL:pIE026
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Distance to:Armenoi_Crete:I9123:Lazaridis_2017
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Distance to:Armenoi_Crete:I9123:Lazaridis_2017
2.7407353019.60% Usatove_EBA:MAJ004 + 80.40% Varna_ChL:VAR010
2.8335814223.20% Usatove_EBA:MAJ004 + 76.80% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE053
2.8906410140.80% Usatove_ChL:MAJ008 + 59.20% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE043
2.9131663823.00% Usatove_EBA:MAJ004 + 77.00% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN021
2.9230390224.20% Usatove_EBA:MAJ004 + 75.80% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN005
2.9428741219.80% Usatove_EBA:MAJ019 + 80.20% Varna_ChL:VAR010
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3.0001775225.20% BGR_EBA:BOY009 + 74.80% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN021
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3.0603923519.00% Yamnaya_Boyanovo_EBA:BOY001 + 81.00% Varna_ChL:VAR010
3.0734589827.00% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL001 + 73.00% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN021
3.1250923921.40% BGR_EBA:BOY009 + 78.60% Varna_ChL:VAR010
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3.1702207218.00% BGR_EBA:BOY008 + 82.00% Varna_ChL:VAR020
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3.2324852723.60% Usatove_EBA:MAJ017 + 76.40% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN005
3.2516794026.40% BGR_EBA:BOY009 + 73.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN005
3.2546832024.60% Usatove_EBA:MAJ019 + 75.40% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN005
3.2675368324.00% Usatove_EBA:MAJ019 + 76.00% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE034
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3.2764064927.00% BGR_EBA:BOY019 + 73.00% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE034


Distance to:Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017
7.1749900227.80% Usatove_ChL:MAJ020 + 72.20% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
7.4720774819.40% Usatove_ChL:USV005 + 80.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
7.5922190221.00% Usatove_ChL:UBK003 + 79.00% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
7.8699481020.60% Usatove_ChL:MAJ008 + 79.40% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
7.8888140019.40% Usatove_Chl:MAJ003 + 80.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.0134120018.60% Usatove_Chl:MAJ002 + 81.40% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.0307667032.40% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL002_50.84% + 67.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.0466901217.40% Usatove_ChL:USV004 + 82.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.1517182313.60% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL007_37.10% + 86.40% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.1656593611.00% BGR_EBA:BOY014 + 89.00% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
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8.2815189514.20% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL006_77.48% + 85.80% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.3118783614.80% Usatove_ChL:MAJ023 + 85.20% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.3453798819.60% Usatove_ChL:MAJ009 + 80.40% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.3789771016.80% Usatove_ChL:UBK006 + 83.20% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.573132479.40% BGR_EBA:BOY008 + 90.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
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8.7538174010.00% BGR_EBA:BOY019 + 90.00% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
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8.779339328.60% Yamnaya_Boyanovo_EBA:BOY001 + 91.40% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.8604206716.00% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL008_20.12% + 84.00% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.894348148.60% Usatove_EBA:MAJ019 + 91.40% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.9547172429.20% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL005_58.48% + 70.80% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.960421069.20% BGR_EBA:BOY009 + 90.80% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048


Distance to:Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017
2.5778366933.40% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL002_50.84% + 66.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN014
2.5825135935.60% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL002_50.84% + 64.40% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN003
2.6510822435.60% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL005_58.48% + 64.40% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN014
2.8560232421.00% Usatove_ChL:MAJ009 + 79.00% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN014
2.8622961720.40% Usatove_ChL:MAJ008 + 79.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN014
3.0281502637.80% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL005_58.48% + 62.20% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN003
3.2519484722.00% Usatove_ChL:MAJ008 + 78.00% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN003
3.2584489317.40% Usatove_ChL:USV004 + 82.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN014
3.2936112411.20% BGR_EBA:BOY019 + 88.80% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN014
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3.3923379022.40% Usatove_ChL:MAJ009 + 77.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN003
3.4825362919.60% Usatove_ChL:UBK003 + 80.40% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN014
3.536614619.40% Usatove_EBA:MAJ017 + 90.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN014
3.5366436325.60% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL005_58.48% + 74.40% Varna_ChL:VAR026
3.5395559028.00% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL002_50.84% + 72.00% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE004
3.5440816970.00% Varna_ChL:VAR026 + 30.00% BGR_EBA:YUN038
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3.6317388017.80% Usatove_ChL:USV005 + 82.20% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN014
3.6775578323.20% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL002_50.84% + 76.80% Varna_ChL:VAR026
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3.7011655114.40% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL006_77.48% + 85.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN014
3.7179868284.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN014 + 15.40% BGR_EBA:YUN041
3.7247625739.40% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL005_58.48% + 60.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048


Distance to:Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017
3.8064818131.20% Usatove_ChL:MAJ009 + 68.80% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE015
4.2064484921.00% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL007_37.10% + 79.00% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE015
4.2852022254.40% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL004_71.12% + 45.60% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE026
4.2911121072.60% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE015 + 27.40% Usatove_ChL:USV005
4.3069094225.80% Usatove_ChL:MAJ009 + 74.20% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE058
4.3578469165.40% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL004_71.12% + 34.60% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE025
4.3680252258.00% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL004_71.12% + 42.00% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE069
4.3907228326.40% Usatove_ChL:MAJ020 + 73.60% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE069
4.3930534573.80% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE015 + 26.20% Usatove_ChL:USV004
4.3974313422.20% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL006_77.48% + 77.80% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE015
4.4012500231.00% Usatove_ChL:MAJ009 + 69.00% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE063
4.4127418926.60% Usatove_ChL:MAJ009 + 73.40% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE025
4.4130648673.40% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE015 + 26.60% Usatove_ChL:UBK006
4.4615304876.00% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE015 + 24.00% BGR_EBA:YUN041
4.4660155216.80% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL007_37.10% + 83.20% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE058
4.4687147877.60% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE058 + 22.40% Usatove_ChL:USV005
4.4714388970.40% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE015 + 29.60% Usatove_ChL:UBK003
4.4862471216.80% BGR_EBA:BOY014 + 83.20% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE015
4.4998816967.60% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL004_71.12% + 32.40% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE029
4.5461304470.60% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL004_71.12% + 29.40% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE015
4.5659070728.60% Usatove_Chl:MAJ003 + 71.40% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE015
4.5676560523.60% Usatove_Chl:MAJ003 + 76.40% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE058
4.5708100520.60% Usatove_ChL:MAJ009 + 79.40% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE069
4.5714986518.00% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL006_77.48% + 82.00% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE058
4.5792107682.00% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE069 + 18.00% Usatove_ChL:USV005


Distance to:Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
1.2471305416.60% BGR_EBA:BOY014 + 83.40% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
1.2510334820.40% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL007_37.10% + 79.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
1.2988480729.40% Usatove_ChL:UBK003 + 70.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
1.3594320829.80% Usatove_ChL:MAJ008 + 70.20% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
1.4027901027.00% Usatove_ChL:USV005 + 73.00% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
1.4539966625.80% Usatove_ChL:USV004 + 74.20% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
1.5695486721.60% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL006_77.48% + 78.40% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
1.6272964028.20% Usatove_Chl:MAJ003 + 71.80% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
1.7373300330.20% Usatove_ChL:MAJ009 + 69.80% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
1.7539796814.00% Usatove_EBA:MAJ017 + 86.00% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
1.7698846416.40% BGR_EBA:BOY019 + 83.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
1.7755264725.80% Usatove_ChL:UBK006 + 74.20% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
1.8479846127.20% Usatove_Chl:MAJ002 + 72.80% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
1.9423499024.80% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL003_54.19% + 75.20% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
2.0581398847.40% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL002_50.84% + 52.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
2.0647287516.80% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL001 + 83.20% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
2.1221349214.00% Yamnaya_Boyanovo_EBA:BOY001 + 86.00% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
2.1494607849.20% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL005_58.48% + 50.80% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
2.2911102015.40% BGR_EBA:BOY009 + 84.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
2.3110838414.40% Usatove_EBA:MAJ019 + 85.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
2.3463825822.40% Usatove_ChL:MAJ023 + 77.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
2.3743586249.80% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL002_50.84% + 50.20% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE015
2.4014133537.00% Usatove_ChL:MAJ020 + 63.00% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
2.4116042714.60% BGR_EBA:BOY008 + 85.40% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
2.4181266622.80% BGR_EBA:YUN041 + 77.20% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048

 
It essentially reflects -nt, which can be IE/ IE related (check similar Anatolian suffixes first of all and the parallels in other languages which exist). With -os or -a etc being Greek suffixes, see how e.g. in Lithuanian Karl Marx becomes Karlas Marxas.

So a name like Korunthos, has a root koru-, the -nt suffix and the Greek -os suffix that was was added when the toponym started being used by people who were speaking Greek proper. Then the original would have been more like Korunt.

And some reconstruct an IE root ǵʰer-

From the firtst we have the following two IE set of words.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/ǵʰórtos

But also see

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:proto-Indo-European/g%CA%B0erd%CA%B0-

One common pattern with these toponyms is that their etymology is unclear, which points towards a pre-Greek (and I assume Pre-IE) origin. We can deduct some things by observing some toponyms, however. Parnitha, Parnonas and Parnassos are all mountains, so the root Parn- must have meant mountain in the pre-Greek tongues of East Peloponnesus and Attica at the very least. I wouldn’t be surprised if these were ANF languages.
 
One common pattern with these toponyms is that their etymology is unclear, which points towards a pre-Greek (and I assume Pre-IE) origin. We can deduct some things by observing some toponyms, however. Parnitha, Parnonas and Parnassos are all mountains, so the root Parn- must have meant mountain in the pre-Greek tongues of East Peloponnesus and Attica at the very least. I wouldn’t be surprised if these were ANF languages.


My personal view is there was at least one Anatolian-related IE language (which is something some scholars have supported at least) and there are some toponyms and theonyms that can be explained as descending from a third language, more closely related to 'nuclear IE' but different from Greek.

Consider that there is for example the Greek word theos (Modern Greek θeos) which means God but it is not usually considered to be a cognate to Latin deus or e.g proto-Celtic *dewos. For me it obviously is a cognate, it just descends from another IE language. This may very well be an example of a 'pre-Greek' Indo-European word.

Greek being from the north is possible. Being from Yamnaya itself is irrational all things considered. A Western relative of Yamnaya, before the Yamnaya expansions, playing a role is theoretically possible, although I don't believe that.

Personally as I have said again I associate early IE with the ANF component, but I follow a so called 'Indo-Anatolian hypothesis', basically an early split between Anatolian and non-Anatolian, so I place 'nuclear IE' in Europe, not on the steppes though.

I definetely do not associate early IE with the CHG component like others do. And also the term 'South of Caucasus' they use is too vague. Iraq and Saudi Arabia are also South of Caucasus.

I will not make another post on Greek on this thread because I don't think we should focus on Greek only.
 
One common pattern with these toponyms is that their etymology is unclear, which points towards a pre-Greek (and I assume Pre-IE) origin. We can deduct some things by observing some toponyms, however. Parnitha, Parnonas and Parnassos are all mountains, so the root Parn- must have meant mountain in the pre-Greek tongues of East Peloponnesus and Attica at the very least. I wouldn’t be surprised if these were ANF languages.

Parna is the Luwian word for House so it might also came with the movement(s) from Anatolia after ANF during LN/EN as genetic studies have shown.
So as @A. Papadimitriou suggests an earlier non-Greek IE may also be a possible scenario.
 
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An Indo-Anatolian presence in Greece before the arrival of Greeks can’t be ruled out right now but going from temple/house to mountain, is a huge stretch imho. Plus even if it was the case, it doesn’t rule out a yamnaya origin for Proto Greeks. Frankly, it doesn’t affect it much even.
 
I wouldn't say a crystal clear gene flow from the steppe. There is only one "real" R1b-PF7562 so far and very negligible steppe ancestry. Anyway, for now the northern model for Proto-Greek is more realistic, I agree.

Steppe was not negligible, the Mycenaeans had 10-20% steppe (varies by region). The samples from Thessaly that could be proto Greeks have 35% steppe and their steppe levels vary a lot. So that mixed Balkan like source could have brought the Proto-Greek language. Thats over 30% proto-Greek admix, if all their steppe came from Proto-Greeks.

It is crystal clear. The Logkas girls were more or less 50% steppe/50% Aegean in autosomal terms. You can’t get a better smoking gun than that. Bronze Age Greeks further south had way less but this is just a matter of diffusion of the original steppe element that made it to Peloponnesus etc. During Bronze Age we still have samples from southern Greece that lack the steppe element but by Iron Age
1.every sample has steppe
2. The amount of steppe said samples have appears to be higher than during Bronze Age (it is obvious in all calculators)
…indicates that there had been a constant steppe influx further south. Without this extra influx, the diffusion of the original amount would have made everyone having steppe regardless, but the average across everyone in the Iron Age would have been lower than the steppe element found in the admixed Bronze Age Mycenaeans. The same amount of sugar that made half a bucket of lemonade sweet, will make the full bucket less sweet. The full bucket is sweeter, more sugar was added. It is that simple.
About the paper, we now have ancient dna. Instead of trying to constantly reinvent the wheel perhaps we should try putting the puzzle together using all pieces.

Steppe was not diluted in the Iron Age, it was diluted way before, right before the Late Bronze age. You must separate the Bronze age periods, the Bronze age was not a short time period. Then steppe remained around the same until the Hellenistic-Roman periods. The Himera Greek mercenaries from 480BC Sicily are 100% identical to the Mycenaeans.

Mycenaeans did not form until their steppe was diluted down to 10-20%.

Logkas was not 50% steppe, it was 35% steppe.

Code:
right = c('Ethiopia_4500BP.DG', 'Russia_MA1_HG.SG', 'Morocco_Iberomaurusian', 'Turkey_Epipaleolithic', 'Turkey_Boncuklu_N', 'Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG', 'Georgia_Satsurblia.SG', 'Russia_Sidelkino_HG.SG', 'Switzerland_Bichon.SG')

left = c('Turkey_N', 'Israel_Natufian', 'Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG', 'Georgia_Kotias.SG', 'Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya', 'Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic')


target = c('Greece_Delphi_BA_Mycenaean')


results = qpadm(prefix, left, right, target, allsnps = TRUE)
results$weights
results$popdrop

P 0.111
  target               left                        weight     se     z
  <chr>                <chr>                        <dbl>  <dbl> <dbl>
1 Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Turkey_N                    0.512  0.0201 25.5 
2 Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG   0.0464 0.0317  1.46
3 Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG           0.0439 0.0364  1.21
4 Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya   0.347  0.0428  8.11
5 Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 0.0501 0.0208  2.41

P 0.126
  target               left                        weight     se     z
  <chr>                <chr>                        <dbl>  <dbl> <dbl>
1 Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Turkey_N                    0.520  0.0198 26.2 
2 Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG   0.0697 0.0247  2.82
3 Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya   0.368  0.0402  9.14
4 Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 0.0429 0.0207  2.07


P 0.205
  target                     left                        weight     se      z
  <chr>                      <chr>                        <dbl>  <dbl>  <dbl>
1 Greece_Delphi_BA_Mycenaean Turkey_N                    0.654  0.0270 24.2  
2 Greece_Delphi_BA_Mycenaean Israel_Natufian             0.0447 0.0255  1.75 
3 Greece_Delphi_BA_Mycenaean Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG   0.0579 0.0321  1.81 
4 Greece_Delphi_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Kotias.SG           0.0343 0.0359  0.956
5 Greece_Delphi_BA_Mycenaean Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya   0.198  0.0438  4.52 
6 Greece_Delphi_BA_Mycenaean Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 0.0106 0.0205  0.516


P 0.617
  target                     left                        weight     se      z
  <chr>                      <chr>                        <dbl>  <dbl>  <dbl>
1 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Nestor Turkey_N                    0.676  0.0255 26.5  
2 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Nestor Israel_Natufian             0.0376 0.0242  1.56 
3 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Nestor Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG   0.0593 0.0282  2.10 
4 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Nestor Georgia_Kotias.SG           0.0310 0.0291  1.07 
5 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Nestor Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya   0.178  0.0361  4.93 
6 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Nestor Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 0.0178 0.0183  0.974


Attica minus chg max 1%.
P 0.255
  target                     left                        weight     se     z
  <chr>                      <chr>                        <dbl>  <dbl> <dbl>
1 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Attica Turkey_N                    0.670  0.0292 22.9 
2 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Attica Israel_Natufian             0.0719 0.0273  2.64
3 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Attica Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG   0.0935 0.0285  3.29
4 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Attica Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya   0.141  0.0433  3.26
5 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Attica Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 0.0238 0.0202  1.18


P 0.562
  target                      left                        weight     se      z
  <chr>                       <chr>                        <dbl>  <dbl>  <dbl>
1 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Galatas Turkey_N                    0.655  0.0376 17.4  
2 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Galatas Israel_Natufian             0.0388 0.0334  1.16 
3 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Galatas Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG   0.0815 0.0442  1.84 
4 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Galatas Georgia_Kotias.SG           0.0547 0.0467  1.17 
5 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Galatas Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya   0.148  0.0538  2.75 
6 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Galatas Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 0.0215 0.0263  0.818


minus irongates
P 0.474 
  target                      left                      weight     se      z
  <chr>                       <chr>                      <dbl>  <dbl>  <dbl>
1 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Salamis Turkey_N                  0.640  0.0497 12.9  
2 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Salamis Israel_Natufian           0.0726 0.0415  1.75 
3 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Salamis Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG 0.0727 0.0627  1.16 
4 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Salamis Georgia_Kotias.SG         0.0416 0.0726  0.574
5 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Salamis Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya 0.173  0.0452  3.83 


P 0.292
  target                    left                           weight     se        z
  <chr>                     <chr>                           <dbl>  <dbl>    <dbl>
1 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Pylos Turkey_N                     0.719    0.0503 14.3    
2 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Pylos Israel_Natufian              0.0549   0.0464  1.18   
3 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Pylos Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG    0.121    0.0645  1.87   
4 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Pylos Georgia_Kotias.SG           -0.000298 0.0734 -0.00407
5 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Pylos Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya    0.0753   0.0753  0.999  
6 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Pylos Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic  0.0302   0.0372  0.810  


P 0.485
  target                    left                        weight     se      z
  <chr>                     <chr>                        <dbl>  <dbl>  <dbl>
1 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Pylos Turkey_N                    0.722  0.0462 15.6  
2 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Pylos Israel_Natufian             0.0555 0.0457  1.21 
3 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Pylos Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG   0.119  0.0468  2.55 
4 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Pylos Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya   0.0727 0.0737  0.987
5 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Pylos Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 0.0307 0.0374  0.821


P 0.330
  target                                    left               weight     se      z
  <chr>                                     <chr>               <dbl>  <dbl>  <dbl>
1 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Salamis_Galatas_Pylos Turkey_N           0.664  0.0314 21.2  
2 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Salamis_Galatas_Pylos Israel_Natufian    0.0589 0.0275  2.15 
3 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Salamis_Galatas_Pylos Iran_TepeAbdulHos~ 0.0756 0.0353  2.14 
4 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Salamis_Galatas_Pylos Georgia_Kotias.SG  0.0335 0.0361  0.929
5 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Salamis_Galatas_Pylos Russia_Samara_EBA~ 0.156  0.0419  3.71 
6 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Salamis_Galatas_Pylos Serbia_IronGates_~ 0.0123 0.0210  0.587


P 0.108
  target                     left                      weight     se      z
  <chr>                      <chr>                      <dbl>  <dbl>  <dbl>
1 Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Turkey_N                  0.530  0.0286 18.5  
2 Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Israel_Natufian           0.0946 0.0293  3.23 
3 Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG 0.174  0.0341  5.10 
4 Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG         0.0251 0.0383  0.654
5 Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya 0.177  0.0314  5.64 


smol minus irongates
P 0.638
  target                          left                       weight se      z
  <chr>                           <chr>                       <dbl>  <dbl>  <dbl>
1 Aegean_Anatolia_Mugla_750_480bc Turkey_N                  0.622  0.0178 34.9 
2 Aegean_Anatolia_Mugla_750_480bc Israel_Natufian           0.0655 0.0155  4.22
3 Aegean_Anatolia_Mugla_750_480bc Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG 0.121  0.0178  6.78
4 Aegean_Anatolia_Mugla_750_480bc Georgia_Kotias.SG         0.0623 0.0199  3.13
5 Aegean_Anatolia_Mugla_750_480bc Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya 0.130  0.0163  7.98


P 0.348
  target                  left                      weight     se     z
  <chr>                   <chr>                      <dbl>  <dbl> <dbl>
1 Turkey_Hellenistic_Hali Turkey_N                  0.497  0.0332 15.0 
2 Turkey_Hellenistic_Hali Israel_Natufian           0.169  0.0319  5.28
3 Turkey_Hellenistic_Hali Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG 0.0784 0.0391  2.01
4 Turkey_Hellenistic_Hali Georgia_Kotias.SG         0.0613 0.0455  1.35
5 Turkey_Hellenistic_Hali Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya 0.195  0.0320  6.09


P 0.00721
  target                  left                        weight      se     z
  <chr>                   <chr>                        <dbl>   <dbl> <dbl>
1 Aegean_Imperial_0_200ad Turkey_N                    0.520  0.0141  36.8 
2 Aegean_Imperial_0_200ad Israel_Natufian             0.0684 0.0131   5.21
3 Aegean_Imperial_0_200ad Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG   0.156  0.0148  10.5 
4 Aegean_Imperial_0_200ad Georgia_Kotias.SG           0.0685 0.0166   4.13
5 Aegean_Imperial_0_200ad Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya   0.165  0.0200   8.23
6 Aegean_Imperial_0_200ad Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 0.0221 0.00966  2.29


greece roman minus balkan hg
P 0.643
  target       left                      weight     se     z
  <chr>        <chr>                      <dbl>  <dbl> <dbl>
1 Greece_Roman Turkey_N                  0.520  0.0392 13.3 
2 Greece_Roman Israel_Natufian           0.154  0.0391  3.95
3 Greece_Roman Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG 0.180  0.0408  4.40
4 Greece_Roman Georgia_Kotias.SG         0.0529 0.0457  1.16
5 Greece_Roman Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya 0.0932 0.0369  2.52


P 0.179
  target         left                      weight     se     z
  <chr>          <chr>                      <dbl>  <dbl> <dbl>
1 Lebanon_MBA.SG Turkey_N                   0.408 0.0246 16.6 
2 Lebanon_MBA.SG Israel_Natufian            0.243 0.0257  9.47
3 Lebanon_MBA.SG Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG  0.244 0.0287  8.49
4 Lebanon_MBA.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG          0.105 0.0306  3.43


P 0.0240
  target        left                      weight     se     z
  <chr>         <chr>                      <dbl>  <dbl> <dbl>
1 Greek_Cypriot Turkey_N                  0.469  0.0214 21.9 
2 Greek_Cypriot Israel_Natufian           0.0969 0.0218  4.45
3 Greek_Cypriot Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N    0.193  0.0279  6.94
4 Greek_Cypriot Georgia_Kotias            0.0699 0.0290  2.41
5 Greek_Cypriot Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya 0.149  0.0308  4.85
6 Greek_Cypriot Lithuania_EMN_Narva       0.0213 0.0151  1.41


PPNB in right
P 0.0883
  target        left                       weight      se      z
  <chr>         <chr>                       <dbl>   <dbl>  <dbl>
1 Italian_South Turkey_N                  0.479   0.0317  15.1  
2 Italian_South Israel_Natufian           0.0510  0.0385   1.32 
3 Italian_South Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N    0.152   0.0191   7.96 
4 Italian_South Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya 0.267   0.0253  10.5  
5 Italian_South Loschbour_WHG             0.0429  0.00970  4.43 
6 Italian_South Morocco_EN                0.00826 0.00872  0.948
 
There's two different Logkas samples, Log02 and Log04.

Logkas04 was indeed 50% steppe according to Clemente et al. 2021, while Logkas02 was less so.

Maybe Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG an average of the two?

Logkas04(the older one) has 50% Logkas02 has about 30-35% steppe
 

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