Language trees support hybrid model for origin of Indo-European languages

A. Papadimitriou · Jul 31, 2023

A. Papadimitriou said:
It is the nature of the texts that make decipherement difficult along with the fact that we don't know if the signs had the exact same values as Linear B. If we had texts that were long e.g. like hymns or poetry and knew the values of the signs we would be able to decipher it.

Also the so called Minoans are not 'CHG/Iran Neo', they are mostly ANF derived, over 80% (?)- I don't remember exactly.

Sorry for quoting myself but also not all CHGs were speaking the same language, not all EHGs were speaking the same language etc
Personally I don't associate early IE with CHG but one population assumed to be non-IE having something like ~20 CHG doesn't prove anything.

Moja · Jul 31, 2023

Pax Augusta said:
Let's admit that it is true that CHG can be associated with the oldest ancestor of Indo-European but it is obvious that languages evolve continuously, so much so that in a very few thousand years we have very different IE linguistic families. Can a Frenchman and an Iranian understand each other if each speaks his own language? Can a Norwegian and a Greek understand each other if each speaks his own language? No. So it is obvious that when CHG merges with EHG the language that will have prevailed will have been very different from the original and more distant one spoken in time by CHG only.

Non-IE people in Greece who were they made up of? A mix of EEF, CHG and Iran_N? Really difficult to figure out which component their language could come from, as it could very well have been a mix of everything.

You say CHG = PIE and we know Anatolian and Greek were direct descendants of PIE, if CHG+EHG was very different then it could be Balto-Slavic.

Pax Augusta · Jul 31, 2023

Moja said:
You say CHG = PIE and we know Anatolian and Greek were direct descendants of PIE, if CHG+EHG was very different then it could be Balto-Slavic.

I think I got lost.

CHG = PIE or IE or ancestor of IE... I'm not the one who say it.

And why should CHG+EHG be Balto-Slavic? When CHG and EHG merged and gave what is called the Steppe ancestral component, the Balto-Slavic languages had not yet been born.

Jovialis · Aug 1, 2023

"Ancient Greek place-names ending in -νϑ-, suspected of being vestiges of a language spoken in Greece before the arrival of the Greeks."

https://twitter.com/KroonenGuus/status/1685964460001763328

Moja · Aug 1, 2023

Pax Augusta said:
I think I got lost.

CHG = PIE or IE or ancestor of IE... I'm not the one to say it.

And why should CHG+EHG be Balto-Slavic? When CHG and EHG merged and gave what is called the Steppe ancestral component, the Balto-Slavic languages had not yet been born.

You said "CHG merges with EHG the language that will have prevailed will have been very different from the original", so it couldn't be the same PIE, Greek was a direct descendant of PIE.

Jovialis · Aug 1, 2023

A. Papadimitriou said:
It is the nature of the texts that make decipherement difficult along with the fact that we don't know if the signs had the exact same values as Linear B. If we had texts that were long e.g. like hymns or poetry and knew the values of the signs we would be able to decipher it.
Also the so called Minoans are not 'CHG/Iran Neo', they are mostly ANF derived, over 80% (?)- I don't remember exactly.

The Minoans are indeed about 20% non-steppe CHG, and the rest being Anatolia_N. Greece_N had a bit less. This shows overtime from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age there was some increase of CHG. Nevertheless, both the northern (Steppe) and Eastern (Armenian) models proposed this.

Personally, I think the Ancient Greeks were formed by the Northern model, with steppe mediated by occasional convenient mixing. The ChL shows a lot of complexity with a gradient from the steppe to the southern Balkans. But ultimately, the genetic profile stayed largely the same (minoan-like), in southern Greece.

To me this makes sense as to why the Greeks put a high premium on autochthony. Their ancestors were largely the same, even before the arrival of the Greek language.

A. Papadimitriou · Aug 1, 2023

Jovialis said:
"Ancient Greek place-names ending in -νϑ-, suspected of being vestiges of a language spoken in Greece before the arrival of the Greeks."

https://twitter.com/KroonenGuus/status/1685964460001763328

It essentially reflects -nt, which can be IE/ IE related (check similar Anatolian suffixes first of all and the parallels in other languages which exist). With -os or -a etc being Greek suffixes, see how e.g. in Lithuanian Karl Marx becomes Karlas Marxas.

So a name like Korunt^hos, has a root koru-, the -nt suffix and the Greek -os suffix that was was added when the toponym started being used by people who were speaking Greek proper. Then the original would have been more like Korunt.

And some reconstruct an IE root ǵʰer-

From the firtst we have the following two IE set of words.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/ǵʰórtos

But also see

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction

roto-Indo-European/g%CA%B0erd%CA%B0-

Jovialis · Aug 1, 2023

Jovialis said:
The Minoans are indeed about 20% non-steppe CHG, and the rest being Anatolia_N. Greece_N had a bit less. This shows overtime from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age there was some increase of CHG. Nevertheless, both the northern (Steppe) and Eastern (Armenian) models proposed this.
Personally, I think the Ancient Greeks were formed by the Northern model, with steppe mediated by occasional convenient mixing. The ChL shows a lot of complexity with a gradient from the steppe to the southern Balkans. But ultimately, the genetic profile stayed largely the same (minoan-like), in southern Greece.
To me this makes sense as to why the Greeks put a high premium on autochthony. Their ancestors were largely the same, even before the arrival of the Greek language.

Just exactly where we would expect much of the ancestry going back to primarily the Neolithic with minor augmentation towards the Bronze Age (i.e. Yamnaya : minion 1 to 10 ratio)

Autochthons are reported in the mythology of the following regions: In Attica: Amphictyon, Cecrops I, Cranaus, Erichthonius, Periphas. In Boeotia: Ogyges, Alalcomenes, Spartoi. In the Peloponnese: Pelasgus of Arcadia, Lelex of Laconia and Aras of Phliasia. Finally, in Atlantis, Evenor.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autochthon_(ancient_Greece)

Jovialis · Aug 1, 2023

Distance to:	Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
6.60228748	Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL004_71.12%
8.19977439	Gumelnița_ChLIE069
9.20656831	Gumelnița_ChLIE042
9.20767072	Gumelnița_ChLIE026
9.34862557	Gumelnița_ChLIE008
9.39295481	Varna_ChL:VAR006
9.47371099	Varna_ChL:VAR004
9.74277168	Gumelnița_ChLIE012
10.08573745	Varna_ChL:VAR011
10.27457055	Gumelnița_ChLIE058
10.38343392	Gumelnița_ChLIE018
10.42488849	Gumelnița_ChLIE032
10.48400687	Varna_ChL:VAR026
10.92157956	Gumelnița_ChLIE004
11.01625163	Gumelnița_ChLIE076
11.48907307	Gumelnița_ChLIE019
11.59972845	BGR_EBA:YUN038
11.77102799	Varna_ChL:VAR030
11.79552034	Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN014
11.81968697	Gumelnița_ChLIE025
11.85354377	Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
12.08844903	Varna_ChL:VAR021
12.18852329	Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL005_58.48%
12.25832370	Gumelnița_ChLIE014
12.38067446	Varna_ChL:VAR016

Distance to:	Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017
6.77372866	Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL004_71.12%
7.57697829	Gumelnița_ChLIE026
8.08862164	Gumelnița_ChLIE012
8.27832713	Varna_ChL:VAR011
8.36661819	Gumelnița_ChLIE069
8.46748487	Gumelnița_ChLIE042
8.50826657	Varna_ChL:VAR006
9.17249693	BGR_EBA:YUN038
9.23492285	Varna_ChL:VAR004
9.36204038	Gumelnița_ChLIE076
9.83810957	Varna_ChL:VAR021
9.85086798	Gumelnița_ChLIE008
10.26713689	Gumelnița_ChLIE032
10.30248999	Gumelnița_ChLIE018
10.32154058	Gumelnița_ChLIE058
10.53103034	Varna_ChL:VAR018
10.57498936	Varna_ChL:VAR027
10.60041980	Varna_ChL:VAR030
10.60659229	Gumelnița_ChLIE019
10.75024651	Gumelnița_ChLIE025
10.78699680	BGR_EBA:YUN043
11.08736218	Karanovo_VI-Gumelnita_ChLTK001
11.10982898	Gumelnița_ChLIE037
11.15429514	Gumelnița_ChLIE004
11.28219837	Varna_ChL:VAR009

Distance to:	Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017
5.42860940	Gumelnița_ChLIE008
5.81397454	Gumelnița_ChLIE069
6.07758176	Varna_ChL:VAR026
6.70180573	Varna_ChL:VAR004
6.70902377	Varna_ChL:VAR006
7.13231379	Gumelnița_ChLIE032
7.16293934	Gumelnița_ChLIE004
7.69171632	Gumelnița_ChLIE042
7.93772008	Gumelnița_ChLIE012
8.30366184	Gumelnița_ChLIE058
8.48665423	Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN014
8.58372297	Gumelnița_ChLIE018
8.66375785	Varna_ChL:VAR011
8.85742626	Gumelnița_ChLIE076
9.14596632	Varna_ChL:VAR016
9.28877279	Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN003
9.38716145	Gumelnița_ChLIE019
9.38917994	Varna_ChL:VAR030
9.61448387	Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN019
9.63941388	Gumelnița_ChLIE014
9.63957468	Gumelnița_ChLIE026
9.71269273	Karanovo_VI-Gumelnita_ChLTK005
9.84498857	Gumelnița_ChLIE025
9.93425891	Gumelnița_ChLIE005
10.03239254	Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048

Distance to:	Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017
11.31445977	Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
11.61591581	Gumelnița_ChLIE026
11.79443937	Gumelnița_ChLIE069
12.65258472	Gumelnița_ChLIE058
12.79606971	Dudeşti_NIE039
13.55410639	Gumelnița_ChLIE018
13.63998900	Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL004_71.12%
14.01847353	Gumelnița_ChLIE063
14.03048823	Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN014
14.21845280	Gumelnița_ChLIE015
14.22177556	Gumelnița_ChLIE054
14.74284572	Gumelnița_ChLIE025
14.74592486	Varna_ChL:VAR026
14.97902867	Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN027
15.07815970	Gumelnița_ChLIE019
15.20696222	Varna_ChL:VAR004
15.27644919	Gumelnița_ChLIE008
15.32587355	Gumelnița_ChLIE005
15.45200311	Gumelnița_ChLIE032
15.55602777	Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN003
15.61253343	Gumelnița_ChLIE004
15.71969783	Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN009
15.77684062	Varna_ChL:VAR006
15.91195463	Gumelnița_ChLIE012
15.98783913	Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN025

Distance to:	Armenoi_Crete:I9123:Lazaridis_2017
9.06168858	BGR_EBA:YUN042
9.34960427	BGR_EBA:YUN034
9.47773707	BGR_EBA:YUN045
9.57767195	Varna_ChL:VAR023_ANI160
10.10382601	BGR_EBA:YUN036
10.46656582	Varna_ChL:VAR011
10.56917215	BGR_EBA:YUN038
10.62969896	Karanovo_VI-Gumelnita_ChLTK001
10.64457139	BGR_EBA:YUN035
11.10963996	BGR_EBA:YUN039
11.14279588	BGR_EBA:YUN037
11.50799722	Gumelnița_EBAIE078
11.66845748	Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL004_71.12%
11.73552300	Varna_ChL:VAR032
11.91358468	Varna_ChL:VAR027
12.03887869	Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL005_58.48%
12.28967860	BGR_EBA:YUN033
12.31361036	Varna_ChL:VAR034
12.69488086	BGR_EBA:YUN043
12.84428277	Gumelnița_ChLIE042
12.86500291	Gumelnița_ChLIE012
13.06278301	Varna_ChL:VAR006
13.18215081	Varna_ChL:VAR021
13.22744495	Varna_ChL:VAR018
13.49347250	Varna_ChL:VAR030

Jovialis · Aug 1, 2023

Distance to:	Armenoi_Crete:I9123:Lazaridis_2017
2.74073530	19.60% Usatove_EBA:MAJ004 + 80.40% Varna_ChL:VAR010
2.83358142	23.20% Usatove_EBA:MAJ004 + 76.80% Gumelnița_ChLIE053
2.89064101	40.80% Usatove_ChL:MAJ008 + 59.20% Gumelnița_ChLIE043
2.91316638	23.00% Usatove_EBA:MAJ004 + 77.00% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN021
2.92303902	24.20% Usatove_EBA:MAJ004 + 75.80% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN005
2.94287412	19.80% Usatove_EBA:MAJ019 + 80.20% Varna_ChL:VAR010
2.98010441	23.20% Usatove_EBA:MAJ017 + 76.80% Gumelnița_ChLIE034
3.00017752	25.20% BGR_EBA:BOY009 + 74.80% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN021
3.04930096	22.40% Usatove_EBA:MAJ017 + 77.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN021
3.06039235	19.00% Yamnaya_Boyanovo_EBA:BOY001 + 81.00% Varna_ChL:VAR010
3.07345898	27.00% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL001 + 73.00% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN021
3.12509239	21.40% BGR_EBA:BOY009 + 78.60% Varna_ChL:VAR010
3.13735953	23.40% Usatove_EBA:MAJ019 + 76.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN021
3.17022072	18.00% BGR_EBA:BOY008 + 82.00% Varna_ChL:VAR020
3.17504697	19.00% Usatove_EBA:MAJ017 + 81.00% Varna_ChL:VAR010
3.18742780	20.00% Usatove_EBA:MAJ019 + 80.00% Gumelnița_ChLIE017
3.18819457	19.20% Yamnaya_Boyanovo_EBA:BOY001 + 80.80% Gumelnița_ChLIE017
3.22314609	63.00% Gumelnița_ChLIE043 + 37.00% Usatove_ChL:USV004
3.23016499	23.20% Yamnaya_Boyanovo_EBA:BOY001 + 76.80% Gumelnița_ChLIE034
3.23248527	23.60% Usatove_EBA:MAJ017 + 76.40% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN005
3.25167940	26.40% BGR_EBA:BOY009 + 73.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN005
3.25468320	24.60% Usatove_EBA:MAJ019 + 75.40% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN005
3.26753683	24.00% Usatove_EBA:MAJ019 + 76.00% Gumelnița_ChLIE034
3.26934393	19.20% Usatove_EBA:MAJ017 + 80.80% Gumelnița_ChLIE017
3.27640649	27.00% BGR_EBA:BOY019 + 73.00% Gumelnița_ChLIE034

Distance to:	Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017
7.17499002	27.80% Usatove_ChL:MAJ020 + 72.20% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
7.47207748	19.40% Usatove_ChL:USV005 + 80.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
7.59221902	21.00% Usatove_ChL:UBK003 + 79.00% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
7.86994810	20.60% Usatove_ChL:MAJ008 + 79.40% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
7.88881400	19.40% Usatove_Chl:MAJ003 + 80.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.01341200	18.60% Usatove_Chl:MAJ002 + 81.40% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.03076670	32.40% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL002_50.84% + 67.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.04669012	17.40% Usatove_ChL:USV004 + 82.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.15171823	13.60% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL007_37.10% + 86.40% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.16565936	11.00% BGR_EBA:BOY014 + 89.00% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.25213242	16.40% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL003_54.19% + 83.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.28151895	14.20% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL006_77.48% + 85.80% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.31187836	14.80% Usatove_ChL:MAJ023 + 85.20% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.34537988	19.60% Usatove_ChL:MAJ009 + 80.40% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.37897710	16.80% Usatove_ChL:UBK006 + 83.20% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.57313247	9.40% BGR_EBA:BOY008 + 90.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.63711599	14.40% BGR_EBA:YUN041 + 85.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.71341610	8.60% Usatove_EBA:MAJ017 + 91.40% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.75381740	10.00% BGR_EBA:BOY019 + 90.00% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.77150267	10.20% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL001 + 89.80% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.77933932	8.60% Yamnaya_Boyanovo_EBA:BOY001 + 91.40% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.86042067	16.00% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL008_20.12% + 84.00% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.89434814	8.60% Usatove_EBA:MAJ019 + 91.40% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.95471724	29.20% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL005_58.48% + 70.80% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
8.96042106	9.20% BGR_EBA:BOY009 + 90.80% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048

Distance to:	Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017
2.57783669	33.40% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL002_50.84% + 66.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN014
2.58251359	35.60% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL002_50.84% + 64.40% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN003
2.65108224	35.60% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL005_58.48% + 64.40% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN014
2.85602324	21.00% Usatove_ChL:MAJ009 + 79.00% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN014
2.86229617	20.40% Usatove_ChL:MAJ008 + 79.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN014
3.02815026	37.80% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL005_58.48% + 62.20% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN003
3.25194847	22.00% Usatove_ChL:MAJ008 + 78.00% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN003
3.25844893	17.40% Usatove_ChL:USV004 + 82.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN014
3.29361124	11.20% BGR_EBA:BOY019 + 88.80% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN014
3.34506618	20.80% Varna_ChL:VAR017 + 79.20% Varna_ChL:VAR026
3.37653676	34.40% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL004_71.12% + 65.60% Varna_ChL:VAR026
3.37656850	11.00% BGR_EBA:BOY014 + 89.00% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN014
3.39233790	22.40% Usatove_ChL:MAJ009 + 77.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN003
3.48253629	19.60% Usatove_ChL:UBK003 + 80.40% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN014
3.53661461	9.40% Usatove_EBA:MAJ017 + 90.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN014
3.53664363	25.60% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL005_58.48% + 74.40% Varna_ChL:VAR026
3.53955590	28.00% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL002_50.84% + 72.00% Gumelnița_ChLIE004
3.54408169	70.00% Varna_ChL:VAR026 + 30.00% BGR_EBA:YUN038
3.55059735	13.60% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL007_37.10% + 86.40% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN014
3.63173880	17.80% Usatove_ChL:USV005 + 82.20% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN014
3.67755783	23.20% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL002_50.84% + 76.80% Varna_ChL:VAR026
3.68995306	17.20% Usatove_ChL:UBK006 + 82.80% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN014
3.70116551	14.40% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL006_77.48% + 85.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN014
3.71798682	84.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN014 + 15.40% BGR_EBA:YUN041
3.72476257	39.40% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL005_58.48% + 60.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048

Distance to:	Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017
3.80648181	31.20% Usatove_ChL:MAJ009 + 68.80% Gumelnița_ChLIE015
4.20644849	21.00% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL007_37.10% + 79.00% Gumelnița_ChLIE015
4.28520222	54.40% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL004_71.12% + 45.60% Gumelnița_ChLIE026
4.29111210	72.60% Gumelnița_ChLIE015 + 27.40% Usatove_ChL:USV005
4.30690942	25.80% Usatove_ChL:MAJ009 + 74.20% Gumelnița_ChLIE058
4.35784691	65.40% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL004_71.12% + 34.60% Gumelnița_ChLIE025
4.36802522	58.00% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL004_71.12% + 42.00% Gumelnița_ChLIE069
4.39072283	26.40% Usatove_ChL:MAJ020 + 73.60% Gumelnița_ChLIE069
4.39305345	73.80% Gumelnița_ChLIE015 + 26.20% Usatove_ChL:USV004
4.39743134	22.20% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL006_77.48% + 77.80% Gumelnița_ChLIE015
4.40125002	31.00% Usatove_ChL:MAJ009 + 69.00% Gumelnița_ChLIE063
4.41274189	26.60% Usatove_ChL:MAJ009 + 73.40% Gumelnița_ChLIE025
4.41306486	73.40% Gumelnița_ChLIE015 + 26.60% Usatove_ChL:UBK006
4.46153048	76.00% Gumelnița_ChLIE015 + 24.00% BGR_EBA:YUN041
4.46601552	16.80% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL007_37.10% + 83.20% Gumelnița_ChLIE058
4.46871478	77.60% Gumelnița_ChLIE058 + 22.40% Usatove_ChL:USV005
4.47143889	70.40% Gumelnița_ChLIE015 + 29.60% Usatove_ChL:UBK003
4.48624712	16.80% BGR_EBA:BOY014 + 83.20% Gumelnița_ChLIE015
4.49988169	67.60% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL004_71.12% + 32.40% Gumelnița_ChLIE029
4.54613044	70.60% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL004_71.12% + 29.40% Gumelnița_ChLIE015
4.56590707	28.60% Usatove_Chl:MAJ003 + 71.40% Gumelnița_ChLIE015
4.56765605	23.60% Usatove_Chl:MAJ003 + 76.40% Gumelnița_ChLIE058
4.57081005	20.60% Usatove_ChL:MAJ009 + 79.40% Gumelnița_ChLIE069
4.57149865	18.00% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL006_77.48% + 82.00% Gumelnița_ChLIE058
4.57921076	82.00% Gumelnița_ChLIE069 + 18.00% Usatove_ChL:USV005

Distance to:	Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
1.24713054	16.60% BGR_EBA:BOY014 + 83.40% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
1.25103348	20.40% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL007_37.10% + 79.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
1.29884807	29.40% Usatove_ChL:UBK003 + 70.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
1.35943208	29.80% Usatove_ChL:MAJ008 + 70.20% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
1.40279010	27.00% Usatove_ChL:USV005 + 73.00% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
1.45399666	25.80% Usatove_ChL:USV004 + 74.20% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
1.56954867	21.60% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL006_77.48% + 78.40% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
1.62729640	28.20% Usatove_Chl:MAJ003 + 71.80% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
1.73733003	30.20% Usatove_ChL:MAJ009 + 69.80% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
1.75397968	14.00% Usatove_EBA:MAJ017 + 86.00% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
1.76988464	16.40% BGR_EBA:BOY019 + 83.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
1.77552647	25.80% Usatove_ChL:UBK006 + 74.20% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
1.84798461	27.20% Usatove_Chl:MAJ002 + 72.80% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
1.94234990	24.80% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL003_54.19% + 75.20% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
2.05813988	47.40% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL002_50.84% + 52.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
2.06472875	16.80% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL001 + 83.20% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
2.12213492	14.00% Yamnaya_Boyanovo_EBA:BOY001 + 86.00% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
2.14946078	49.20% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL005_58.48% + 50.80% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
2.29111020	15.40% BGR_EBA:BOY009 + 84.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
2.31108384	14.40% Usatove_EBA:MAJ019 + 85.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
2.34638258	22.40% Usatove_ChL:MAJ023 + 77.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
2.37435862	49.80% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL002_50.84% + 50.20% Gumelnița_ChLIE015
2.40141335	37.00% Usatove_ChL:MAJ020 + 63.00% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
2.41160427	14.60% BGR_EBA:BOY008 + 85.40% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048
2.41812666	22.80% BGR_EBA:YUN041 + 77.20% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN048

Jovialis · Aug 1, 2023

Kuivamaa · Aug 1, 2023

A. Papadimitriou said:
It essentially reflects -nt, which can be IE/ IE related (check similar Anatolian suffixes first of all and the parallels in other languages which exist). With -os or -a etc being Greek suffixes, see how e.g. in Lithuanian Karl Marx becomes Karlas Marxas.

So a name like Korunt^hos, has a root koru-, the -nt suffix and the Greek -os suffix that was was added when the toponym started being used by people who were speaking Greek proper. Then the original would have been more like Korunt.

And some reconstruct an IE root ǵʰer-

From the firtst we have the following two IE set of words.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/ǵʰórtos

But also see

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstructionroto-Indo-European/g%CA%B0erd%CA%B0-

One common pattern with these toponyms is that their etymology is unclear, which points towards a pre-Greek (and I assume Pre-IE) origin. We can deduct some things by observing some toponyms, however. Parnitha, Parnonas and Parnassos are all mountains, so the root Parn- must have meant mountain in the pre-Greek tongues of East Peloponnesus and Attica at the very least. I wouldn’t be surprised if these were ANF languages.

A. Papadimitriou · Aug 2, 2023

Kuivamaa said:
One common pattern with these toponyms is that their etymology is unclear, which points towards a pre-Greek (and I assume Pre-IE) origin. We can deduct some things by observing some toponyms, however. Parnitha, Parnonas and Parnassos are all mountains, so the root Parn- must have meant mountain in the pre-Greek tongues of East Peloponnesus and Attica at the very least. I wouldn’t be surprised if these were ANF languages.

My personal view is there was at least one Anatolian-related IE language (which is something some scholars have supported at least) and there are some toponyms and theonyms that can be explained as descending from a third language, more closely related to 'nuclear IE' but different from Greek.

Consider that there is for example the Greek word t^heos (Modern Greek θeos) which means God but it is not usually considered to be a cognate to Latin deus or e.g proto-Celtic *dewos. For me it obviously is a cognate, it just descends from another IE language. This may very well be an example of a 'pre-Greek' Indo-European word.

Greek being from the north is possible. Being from Yamnaya itself is irrational all things considered. A Western relative of Yamnaya, before the Yamnaya expansions, playing a role is theoretically possible, although I don't believe that.

Personally as I have said again I associate early IE with the ANF component, but I follow a so called 'Indo-Anatolian hypothesis', basically an early split between Anatolian and non-Anatolian, so I place 'nuclear IE' in Europe, not on the steppes though.

I definetely do not associate early IE with the CHG component like others do. And also the term 'South of Caucasus' they use is too vague. Iraq and Saudi Arabia are also South of Caucasus.

I will not make another post on Greek on this thread because I don't think we should focus on Greek only.

Omino · Aug 2, 2023

Kuivamaa said:
One common pattern with these toponyms is that their etymology is unclear, which points towards a pre-Greek (and I assume Pre-IE) origin. We can deduct some things by observing some toponyms, however. Parnitha, Parnonas and Parnassos are all mountains, so the root Parn- must have meant mountain in the pre-Greek tongues of East Peloponnesus and Attica at the very least. I wouldn’t be surprised if these were ANF languages.

Parna is the Luwian word for House so it might also came with the movement(s) from Anatolia after ANF during LN/EN as genetic studies have shown.
So as @A. Papadimitriou suggests an earlier non-Greek IE may also be a possible scenario.

Kuivamaa · Aug 2, 2023

An Indo-Anatolian presence in Greece before the arrival of Greeks can’t be ruled out right now but going from temple/house to mountain, is a huge stretch imho. Plus even if it was the case, it doesn’t rule out a yamnaya origin for Proto Greeks. Frankly, it doesn’t affect it much even.

Idontknowwhatimdoing · Aug 4, 2023

Anfänger said:
I wouldn't say a crystal clear gene flow from the steppe. There is only one "real" R1b-PF7562 so far and very negligible steppe ancestry. Anyway, for now the northern model for Proto-Greek is more realistic, I agree.

Steppe was not negligible, the Mycenaeans had 10-20% steppe (varies by region). The samples from Thessaly that could be proto Greeks have 35% steppe and their steppe levels vary a lot. So that mixed Balkan like source could have brought the Proto-Greek language. Thats over 30% proto-Greek admix, if all their steppe came from Proto-Greeks.

Kuivamaa said:
It is crystal clear. The Logkas girls were more or less 50% steppe/50% Aegean in autosomal terms. You can’t get a better smoking gun than that. Bronze Age Greeks further south had way less but this is just a matter of diffusion of the original steppe element that made it to Peloponnesus etc. During Bronze Age we still have samples from southern Greece that lack the steppe element but by Iron Age
1.every sample has steppe
2. The amount of steppe said samples have appears to be higher than during Bronze Age (it is obvious in all calculators)
…indicates that there had been a constant steppe influx further south. Without this extra influx, the diffusion of the original amount would have made everyone having steppe regardless, but the average across everyone in the Iron Age would have been lower than the steppe element found in the admixed Bronze Age Mycenaeans. The same amount of sugar that made half a bucket of lemonade sweet, will make the full bucket less sweet. The full bucket is sweeter, more sugar was added. It is that simple.
About the paper, we now have ancient dna. Instead of trying to constantly reinvent the wheel perhaps we should try putting the puzzle together using all pieces.

Steppe was not diluted in the Iron Age, it was diluted way before, right before the Late Bronze age. You must separate the Bronze age periods, the Bronze age was not a short time period. Then steppe remained around the same until the Hellenistic-Roman periods. The Himera Greek mercenaries from 480BC Sicily are 100% identical to the Mycenaeans.

Mycenaeans did not form until their steppe was diluted down to 10-20%.

Logkas was not 50% steppe, it was 35% steppe.

Code:

right = c('Ethiopia_4500BP.DG', 'Russia_MA1_HG.SG', 'Morocco_Iberomaurusian', 'Turkey_Epipaleolithic', 'Turkey_Boncuklu_N', 'Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG', 'Georgia_Satsurblia.SG', 'Russia_Sidelkino_HG.SG', 'Switzerland_Bichon.SG')

left = c('Turkey_N', 'Israel_Natufian', 'Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG', 'Georgia_Kotias.SG', 'Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya', 'Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic')


target = c('Greece_Delphi_BA_Mycenaean')


results = qpadm(prefix, left, right, target, allsnps = TRUE)
results$weights
results$popdrop

P 0.111
  target               left                        weight     se     z
  <chr>                <chr>                        <dbl>  <dbl> <dbl>
1 Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Turkey_N                    0.512  0.0201 25.5 
2 Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG   0.0464 0.0317  1.46
3 Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG           0.0439 0.0364  1.21
4 Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya   0.347  0.0428  8.11
5 Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 0.0501 0.0208  2.41

P 0.126
  target               left                        weight     se     z
  <chr>                <chr>                        <dbl>  <dbl> <dbl>
1 Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Turkey_N                    0.520  0.0198 26.2 
2 Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG   0.0697 0.0247  2.82
3 Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya   0.368  0.0402  9.14
4 Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 0.0429 0.0207  2.07


P 0.205
  target                     left                        weight     se      z
  <chr>                      <chr>                        <dbl>  <dbl>  <dbl>
1 Greece_Delphi_BA_Mycenaean Turkey_N                    0.654  0.0270 24.2  
2 Greece_Delphi_BA_Mycenaean Israel_Natufian             0.0447 0.0255  1.75 
3 Greece_Delphi_BA_Mycenaean Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG   0.0579 0.0321  1.81 
4 Greece_Delphi_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Kotias.SG           0.0343 0.0359  0.956
5 Greece_Delphi_BA_Mycenaean Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya   0.198  0.0438  4.52 
6 Greece_Delphi_BA_Mycenaean Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 0.0106 0.0205  0.516


P 0.617
  target                     left                        weight     se      z
  <chr>                      <chr>                        <dbl>  <dbl>  <dbl>
1 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Nestor Turkey_N                    0.676  0.0255 26.5  
2 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Nestor Israel_Natufian             0.0376 0.0242  1.56 
3 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Nestor Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG   0.0593 0.0282  2.10 
4 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Nestor Georgia_Kotias.SG           0.0310 0.0291  1.07 
5 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Nestor Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya   0.178  0.0361  4.93 
6 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Nestor Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 0.0178 0.0183  0.974


Attica minus chg max 1%.
P 0.255
  target                     left                        weight     se     z
  <chr>                      <chr>                        <dbl>  <dbl> <dbl>
1 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Attica Turkey_N                    0.670  0.0292 22.9 
2 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Attica Israel_Natufian             0.0719 0.0273  2.64
3 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Attica Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG   0.0935 0.0285  3.29
4 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Attica Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya   0.141  0.0433  3.26
5 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Attica Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 0.0238 0.0202  1.18


P 0.562
  target                      left                        weight     se      z
  <chr>                       <chr>                        <dbl>  <dbl>  <dbl>
1 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Galatas Turkey_N                    0.655  0.0376 17.4  
2 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Galatas Israel_Natufian             0.0388 0.0334  1.16 
3 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Galatas Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG   0.0815 0.0442  1.84 
4 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Galatas Georgia_Kotias.SG           0.0547 0.0467  1.17 
5 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Galatas Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya   0.148  0.0538  2.75 
6 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Galatas Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 0.0215 0.0263  0.818


minus irongates
P 0.474 
  target                      left                      weight     se      z
  <chr>                       <chr>                      <dbl>  <dbl>  <dbl>
1 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Salamis Turkey_N                  0.640  0.0497 12.9  
2 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Salamis Israel_Natufian           0.0726 0.0415  1.75 
3 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Salamis Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG 0.0727 0.0627  1.16 
4 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Salamis Georgia_Kotias.SG         0.0416 0.0726  0.574
5 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Salamis Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya 0.173  0.0452  3.83 


P 0.292
  target                    left                           weight     se        z
  <chr>                     <chr>                           <dbl>  <dbl>    <dbl>
1 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Pylos Turkey_N                     0.719    0.0503 14.3    
2 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Pylos Israel_Natufian              0.0549   0.0464  1.18   
3 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Pylos Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG    0.121    0.0645  1.87   
4 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Pylos Georgia_Kotias.SG           -0.000298 0.0734 -0.00407
5 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Pylos Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya    0.0753   0.0753  0.999  
6 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Pylos Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic  0.0302   0.0372  0.810  


P 0.485
  target                    left                        weight     se      z
  <chr>                     <chr>                        <dbl>  <dbl>  <dbl>
1 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Pylos Turkey_N                    0.722  0.0462 15.6  
2 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Pylos Israel_Natufian             0.0555 0.0457  1.21 
3 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Pylos Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG   0.119  0.0468  2.55 
4 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Pylos Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya   0.0727 0.0737  0.987
5 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Pylos Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 0.0307 0.0374  0.821


P 0.330
  target                                    left               weight     se      z
  <chr>                                     <chr>               <dbl>  <dbl>  <dbl>
1 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Salamis_Galatas_Pylos Turkey_N           0.664  0.0314 21.2  
2 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Salamis_Galatas_Pylos Israel_Natufian    0.0589 0.0275  2.15 
3 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Salamis_Galatas_Pylos Iran_TepeAbdulHos~ 0.0756 0.0353  2.14 
4 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Salamis_Galatas_Pylos Georgia_Kotias.SG  0.0335 0.0361  0.929
5 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Salamis_Galatas_Pylos Russia_Samara_EBA~ 0.156  0.0419  3.71 
6 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Salamis_Galatas_Pylos Serbia_IronGates_~ 0.0123 0.0210  0.587


P 0.108
  target                     left                      weight     se      z
  <chr>                      <chr>                      <dbl>  <dbl>  <dbl>
1 Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Turkey_N                  0.530  0.0286 18.5  
2 Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Israel_Natufian           0.0946 0.0293  3.23 
3 Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG 0.174  0.0341  5.10 
4 Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG         0.0251 0.0383  0.654
5 Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya 0.177  0.0314  5.64 


smol minus irongates
P 0.638
  target                          left                       weight se      z
  <chr>                           <chr>                       <dbl>  <dbl>  <dbl>
1 Aegean_Anatolia_Mugla_750_480bc Turkey_N                  0.622  0.0178 34.9 
2 Aegean_Anatolia_Mugla_750_480bc Israel_Natufian           0.0655 0.0155  4.22
3 Aegean_Anatolia_Mugla_750_480bc Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG 0.121  0.0178  6.78
4 Aegean_Anatolia_Mugla_750_480bc Georgia_Kotias.SG         0.0623 0.0199  3.13
5 Aegean_Anatolia_Mugla_750_480bc Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya 0.130  0.0163  7.98


P 0.348
  target                  left                      weight     se     z
  <chr>                   <chr>                      <dbl>  <dbl> <dbl>
1 Turkey_Hellenistic_Hali Turkey_N                  0.497  0.0332 15.0 
2 Turkey_Hellenistic_Hali Israel_Natufian           0.169  0.0319  5.28
3 Turkey_Hellenistic_Hali Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG 0.0784 0.0391  2.01
4 Turkey_Hellenistic_Hali Georgia_Kotias.SG         0.0613 0.0455  1.35
5 Turkey_Hellenistic_Hali Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya 0.195  0.0320  6.09


P 0.00721
  target                  left                        weight      se     z
  <chr>                   <chr>                        <dbl>   <dbl> <dbl>
1 Aegean_Imperial_0_200ad Turkey_N                    0.520  0.0141  36.8 
2 Aegean_Imperial_0_200ad Israel_Natufian             0.0684 0.0131   5.21
3 Aegean_Imperial_0_200ad Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG   0.156  0.0148  10.5 
4 Aegean_Imperial_0_200ad Georgia_Kotias.SG           0.0685 0.0166   4.13
5 Aegean_Imperial_0_200ad Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya   0.165  0.0200   8.23
6 Aegean_Imperial_0_200ad Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 0.0221 0.00966  2.29


greece roman minus balkan hg
P 0.643
  target       left                      weight     se     z
  <chr>        <chr>                      <dbl>  <dbl> <dbl>
1 Greece_Roman Turkey_N                  0.520  0.0392 13.3 
2 Greece_Roman Israel_Natufian           0.154  0.0391  3.95
3 Greece_Roman Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG 0.180  0.0408  4.40
4 Greece_Roman Georgia_Kotias.SG         0.0529 0.0457  1.16
5 Greece_Roman Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya 0.0932 0.0369  2.52


P 0.179
  target         left                      weight     se     z
  <chr>          <chr>                      <dbl>  <dbl> <dbl>
1 Lebanon_MBA.SG Turkey_N                   0.408 0.0246 16.6 
2 Lebanon_MBA.SG Israel_Natufian            0.243 0.0257  9.47
3 Lebanon_MBA.SG Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG  0.244 0.0287  8.49
4 Lebanon_MBA.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG          0.105 0.0306  3.43


P 0.0240
  target        left                      weight     se     z
  <chr>         <chr>                      <dbl>  <dbl> <dbl>
1 Greek_Cypriot Turkey_N                  0.469  0.0214 21.9 
2 Greek_Cypriot Israel_Natufian           0.0969 0.0218  4.45
3 Greek_Cypriot Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N    0.193  0.0279  6.94
4 Greek_Cypriot Georgia_Kotias            0.0699 0.0290  2.41
5 Greek_Cypriot Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya 0.149  0.0308  4.85
6 Greek_Cypriot Lithuania_EMN_Narva       0.0213 0.0151  1.41


PPNB in right
P 0.0883
  target        left                       weight      se      z
  <chr>         <chr>                       <dbl>   <dbl>  <dbl>
1 Italian_South Turkey_N                  0.479   0.0317  15.1  
2 Italian_South Israel_Natufian           0.0510  0.0385   1.32 
3 Italian_South Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N    0.152   0.0191   7.96 
4 Italian_South Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya 0.267   0.0253  10.5  
5 Italian_South Loschbour_WHG             0.0429  0.00970  4.43 
6 Italian_South Morocco_EN                0.00826 0.00872  0.948

Jovialis · Aug 4, 2023

There's two different Logkas samples, Log02 and Log04.

Logkas04 was indeed 50% steppe according to Clemente et al. 2021, while Logkas02 was less so.

Maybe Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG an average of the two?

Omino · Aug 4, 2023

Jovialis said:
There's two different Logkas samples, Log02 and Log04.

Logkas04 was indeed 50% steppe according to Clemente et al. 2021, while Logkas02 was less so.

Maybe Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG an average of the two?

Logkas04(the older one) has 50% Logkas02 has about 30-35% steppe

Jovialis · Aug 4, 2023

Omino said:
Logkas04(the older one) has 50% Logkas02 has about 30-35% steppe

That sounds about right.

Omino · Aug 4, 2023

Jovialis said:
That sounds about right.

Found the models from the study

Language trees support hybrid model for origin of Indo-European languages

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