Less than half of French people think that cheating on one's partner is wrong

This is getting funny...So hypothetically, if you leave someones wife pregnant, that man is going to raise the child because he does not know. Even if he is smart/detective and finds out, he still is the one who has to raise the kid. Isn't this a system that willfully or not favors cheaters and men that are "players".

Exactly, and that is why the French system is revolting - even disgusting.
 
So, a woman who bears a child while unmarried can petition a court for paternity testing in order to get child support. In a divorce proceeding, a man is presumed to be the father and is required to pay child support unless he contests paternity and requests dna testing. However, even if it is proved that he is not the biological father, that doesn't necessarily mean that he will not be liable for child support. In many states, the principal of equitable fatherhood then comes into play. If a man has acted as a father, provided monetary support, made health decisions, bonded with the child, the court, in its discretion, which is wide, could still mandate child support. Certainly, however, if the child was a newborn, for instance, that would weigh heavily on the scales.

I find it scandalous that some courts would make a man pay child support for a child that has been proven not to be his. In such a situation I think it should be the mother who should pay huge indemnities for making her husband believe that he was the child's father. The compensations should be at least equal to the damage done, in terms of years wasted, money spent, plus emotional damage caused. In other word a cheating mother might spent the rest of her life paying compensations to the cheated ex-husband.

(In real life, in my experience, a man who has reared and bonded with a child doesn't necessarily abandon that child in these circumstances. After all, the child is innocent. Indeed, what can and does happen at times is that the mother asks for the paternity testing in order to deny the father visitation and/or custody, and men can and do fight to retain custody.)

Indeed, if a bond was created by the child and the presumed (but non biological) father, then the father should be able to ask partial custody, provided that the mother pays all the expenses (in addition to the above-mentioned damages).


As to France, at least as I understand it, the only thing that is prohibited is for the husband/father to submit his own sample and a sample he takes from his child to a private company like 23andme, for example.

Absolutely not. In France any kind of DNA test is prohibited. This is what is outrageous. The law is formulated to prohibit any citizen to seek or reveal to somene else genetic information about oneself or any other person. In other words, nobody can order a DNA test even for such purposes as genetic genealogy, to know one's medical risks, to know one's haplogroup or ancestry, or just by curiosity or for scientific research. All these are prohibited and punishable by one year imprisonment (enough to ruin one's life) or a 15,000 € fine. Please understand that it is not only the person who orders the DNA test who is punishable, but also the testing company or anybody else who would share genetic information about another person. Legislators probably didn't think that if a French person had relatives abroad who did a test like FamilyTreeDNA or 23andMe, and that one of these relatives came to France and revealed the family's Y-DNA haplogroup, this would also be considered as sharing genetic information about a French resident, and that person could therefore be condemned to one year in prison in France. Welcome to France !

Btw, France is not the only jurisdiction that has limited access to this kind of testing. It has been talked about in the U.S. as well, although in the context of the health information. The concern is that the disease risks given by a company like 23andme are not reliable in the first instance, and, in addition, will cause panic in people who are incapable of assessing the information. As the U.S. is a federal system, different states have taken different views. For example, 23andme kits couldn't be mailed to or mailed from New York state. Now, of course, 23andme has been prohibited from providing the health information nationally pending review. Paternity could still be determined by the test, of course, but that hasn't been addressed.

The current issue between the FDA and 23andMe is only a matter of paperwork that will be solved in due time. It has absolutely nothing to do with the harsh and senseless prohibition that people face in France. In Saudi Arabia there is death penalty for insulting Islam. In France people go to jail for wanting to learn about themselves. That's not very different as far as Human Rights are concerned. It's ironic that even ultra-conservative and ultra-religious Saudi Arabia recently launched a government-sponsored programme aiming to sequence 100,000 human genomes to study both normal and disease-associated genes specific to the Saudi population. Who would have thought that the country of the Enlightenment and of the first declaration of Human Rights in Europe is now more conservative and scientifically intolerant than Saudi Arabia ?
 
Exactly. The mother should be penalized, not rewarded for bearing the other mans son lol....again; only in France. I've seen it turn out uhhhh.....differently in the states. This happened with a us marine that was risking his life overseas....they didn't give his ex proper security in the back-court room and they somehow (I suppose secretly) gave him permission to roam the court.....needless to say he apparently found her and dealt great physical damage including a black swollen shut eye and a few broken things (I HEAVILY condone this.) it was probably a random act/lack of supervision but it just comes to show you how much they respect their servicemen in the states....
 
Exactly. The mother should be penalized, not rewarded for bearing the other mans son lol....again; only in France. I've seen it turn out uhhhh.....differently in the states. This happened with a us marine that was risking his life overseas....they didn't give his ex proper security in the back-court room and they somehow (I suppose secretly) gave him permission to roam the court.....needless to say he apparently found her and dealt great physical damage including a black swollen shut eye and a few broken things (I HEAVILY condone this.) it was probably a random act/lack of supervision but it just comes to show you how much they respect their servicemen in the states....

You are a pig and a cowardly little *******.
 
In what way? It's a true story. You're a dummy that tries to seize the wrong opportunities to look good/tough. It's both shocking; and a true story. You need to take your military boots off "mister manly man" LOL. "Awwwww, you cowardly piece of *******"; stop trying to act like that tough guy in the movies, some sissies search for any opportunity to prove that they're half-a-man I guess! It seems you've gotten yourself all worked up over nothing, my re-canting of a real life story.
 
In what way? It's a true story. You're a dummy that tries to seize the wrong opportunities to look good/tough. It's both shocking; and a true story. You need to take your military boots off "mister manly man" LOL. "Awwwww, you cowardly piece of *******"; stop trying to act like that tough guy in the movies, some sissies search for any opportunity to prove that they're half-a-man I guess! It seems you've gotten yourself all worked up over nothing, my re-canting of a real life story.

Any male who says he approves of violence against women isn't a man. I'm not going to bother discussing this any more with the likes of you.
 
It takes a real man to know that. If I could give you a hundred points, I would.
 
I hope that John123 simply mixed up the words "condone" and "condemn," like he mixed up "recant" and "recite." Because if he meant "condone," that is inexcusable. Looks like he's been banned either way.
 
To try to get the thread back on topic, I can understand why Maciamo disapproves of the French law against paternal DNA tests. However, I suspect it was created in an attempt to avoid having the French courts clogged up with lawsuits about inheritances. If the children of a man's wife are deemed to be his offspring, he may still disinherit one that he thinks isn't his, but he can't find out for sure whether that's his child, and a person can't sue their sibling in an attempt to get their inheritance away from them if it's illegal to test for heredity. I suspect the issue of sexual "morality" was of less concern to French lawmakers than the desire to avoid an increase in lawsuits about estates.
 
I hope that John123 simply mixed up the words "condone" and "condemn," like he mixed up "recant" and "recite." Because if he meant "condone," that is inexcusable. Looks like he's been banned either way.
That's exactly what I had meant, condemn but my grammatical capacities betrayed me. This account will soon be deleted too probably.
 
While Ukrainians are taking the streets to fight for their freedom and democracy, yesterday the French were staging mass protests (500,000 participants according to the organisers) in Paris and Lyon against 'unnatural families' (gay marriage), which they perceive as a serious threat to French values and culture.

If the French were as scientific-minded as they like to think, they would know that it will soon be possible for anyone to change their gender thanks to a new form of gene therapy boosted by stem cells. I suppose that a big chunk of the French population will be opposed to that right too. But once someone has shifted gender genetically and biologically, how can you prevent them to get married with the person of their choice ?

The problem is that the collective unconscious of France got stuck in its moral development somewhere around the middle of the 20th century (some will blame the trauma of WWII). France had been at the vanguard of sciences and ethics from the 17th to the early 20th century. Now it lags behind developing countries in many respects. For instance, Uruguay was elected 'country of the year' by the Economist magazine thanks to its move to legalise gay marriage and cannabis in the same year. In contrast, France is one of the few Western European countries where simple possession of a few grammes of cannabis can still land someone in jail. And despite the legalisation of gay marriage a few months ago, a big part of the French population still cannot accept it and more people have been protesting against this issue than about any other societal, economic or political issue over the past year in France.

It has been suggested that France's huge Maghrebian community has now become such a driving force in French politics that France has regressed in its political development to a position intermediary between the Europe and North Africa. When I see how things are turning in France, I think that there may be some underlying truths behind such claims.

It's funny that I should find myself defending gay rights when I do not have any friends or close relative who is gay (to my knowledge, at least). But it's a matter of principle, fairness and common sense.
 
If the French ultra-right is finding common ground with the muslims they usually love to hate on conservative issues, that's a scary development. But I still think that the law against DNA paternity tests probably has less to do with any ideas about sexual morality than it has to do with protecting the certainty of inheritances and property rights, sometimes at the expense of those who would otherwise inherit if DNA testing was done. What the government probably doesn't want is for someone to be able to start a lengthy court case where they claim that a sibling would not have inherited if their father had known that he wasn't actually the father of that child, so they want the courts to undo property sales made by the heir who's actually someone else's child, etc. That kind of scenario could create uncertainty of property title, something that governments hate.
 
It's funny that I should find myself defending gay rights when I do not have any friends or close relative who is gay (to my knowledge, at least). But it's a matter of principle, fairness and common sense.
Same here. Actually my viewpoint evolved from against their rights as coming from understanding homosexual behaviour as being a crazy and illogical choice, to supporting their equality in rights and social settings with understanding sexuality as hardwired in a brain at time of birth, therefore no conscious choice.
 
It has been suggested that France's huge Maghrebian community has now become such a driving force in French politics that France has regressed in its political development to a position intermediary between the Europe and North Africa. When I see how things are turning in France, I think that there may be some underlying truths behind such claims.

I just don't understand some of their decisions. Immigrating somewhere and then going hardcore conservative against other minorities is very stupid and short-sighted because once they're done oppressing that minority it will be your turn next.
 
If the French ultra-right is finding common ground with the muslims they usually love to hate on conservative issues, that's a scary development. But I still think that the law against DNA paternity tests probably has less to do with any ideas about sexual morality than it has to do with protecting the certainty of inheritances and property rights, sometimes at the expense of those who would otherwise inherit if DNA testing was done. What the government probably doesn't want is for someone to be able to start a lengthy court case where they claim that a sibling would not have inherited if their father had known that he wasn't actually the father of that child, so they want the courts to undo property sales made by the heir who's actually someone else's child, etc. That kind of scenario could create uncertainty of property title, something that governments hate.

I agree with that...governments also want family units to remain intact, both because, as I posted up thread, they don't want the greater society to have to assume the economic burden of raising the children, and because there is more social pathology in children from single parent households. They are taking the long and broad view in these matters. I'm afraid they are less concerned with the outraged feelings of duped husbands, other than to want to control any possible violent outbursts. Obviously, that's not very fair to the individual men in these situations, but these are the motivating societal factors behind the adoption of many laws affecting children. In real life, of course, most men don't pay the child support even for their incontestably biological children, so it's all pretty futile in the end.

In the U.S. for example, in many states a man can only seek paternity testing in the context of a divorce or a custody proceeding. Other than that he doesn't even have standing before the courts to seek it. I also think it would be extraordinarily difficult to find a lab that would do it absent a doctor's order, and I doubt a doctor would order it. That leaves only a test like 23andme offers, but as a percent of the population, very few people have ordered it, and it certainly isn't marketed that way.

In terms of trying to control or ban private genetic testing as a whole, the French government is not alone. Bills have been presented to Congress to ban it nationwide, although they haven't passed yet. On a state level, New York State has banned the taking of samples or the mailing of samples from within the state , and it has nothing to do with sexual morality. The only reason New York state residents can get tested is because the legislators, in a typically idiotic way, didn't fashion the law correctly. Who knows where the sample was taken, and it's a short drive across the state's borders to a mailbox. So, the will was there...they just didn't write the law properly, leaving a loop hole big enough for a Mack truck. In my view, this is just more nanny state trying to control every aspect of life because they know better, and it's all for your own good.
 
It is highly ironic that the French are the most tolerant of infidelity when they are the only ones denied the opportunity to verify a child's paternity. If any man can check that he is really the father of a child even before the child is born (as it is now possible), female infidelity immediately becomes less emotionally charged as the risks for the man disappear and only infidelity "only" becomes a matter of hurt feelings.

Maciamo
Because I'm French better than others I can answer

the project of the legislature in enacting this law: the child protection

French behavior is guided only by the modesty not to spread respect for privacy.

The other by the French law also punishes incitement to hatred.

I have difficulty accepting what you say to my people and therefore my children or my family.
We must respect others when we want to be respected. Otherwise do not feel outrage to be served in return.

This does not mean that I personally totally agree but I can understand the reasoning of my concytoyens, which is based on humanitarian precautions and feelings of generosity. But I think that the laws can be modulated when she did not reach their destination.
 
I hope that John123 simply mixed up the words "condone" and "condemn," like he mixed up "recant" and "recite." Because if he meant "condone," that is inexcusable. Looks like he's been banned either way.

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Post? par John123
LOL Maciamo it's so ******* true!!!! French girls are total sluts even here in North America! It must be a genetic predisposition cause it's a real phenomenon as compared to English Canadian women; the French have tendencies towards heavy infidelity; so e times I wonder if French women are unable to create emotional bonds or something; from what my friends tell me there's something deffinetly wrong with these sluts.

Why so much compassion for him?
 
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Post� par John123
LOL Maciamo it's so ******* true!!!! French girls are total sluts even here in North America! It must be a genetic predisposition cause it's a real phenomenon as compared to English Canadian women; the French have tendencies towards heavy infidelity; so e times I wonder if French women are unable to create emotional bonds or something; from what my friends tell me there's something deffinetly wrong with these sluts.

Why so much compassion for him?

insecurity comes from the men and women who call other women sluts. They dislike the idea of these women being equal to men and have lost out on any "fantasy" relationships they thought would eventuate.

I feel sorry for these insecure people. They must keep their partners under lock and key when they leave the house.:petrified:
 
I totally agree with you , is sometimes odd than in Latin America the average Macho Latino is proud of having many lovers ( most of the time sharing our love adventures with other friends) and a Latina doing the same is considered a s**t .
 
We have better morals up here. In North America a man having many partners is considered a douche-bag. A woman doing the same is considered "men are pigs".
 

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