Let's talk about the election results : OFFTOPIC with (Ala)BamaFan

[kirei_na_me]

Ok, guys case closed, I hate typing. For all I care, we can say you are right I am wrong, I just hate debating over a topic that seems so useless. Kirei... Don't ever say anything like "Real Christian like, huh?" When you are not a Christian. You don't understand anything about it.

Excuse me, Bama, but I was raised going to the Southern Baptist church, Methodist church, Church of Christ, and numerous other churches. My great grandmother on my father's side was an ordained minister, one of my best friends is a preacher, and my grandmother and great-grandmother on my mom's side played organ and piano in the church for 5 times longer than you've been alive, so you don't need to tell me I don't know anything about Christianity.

You're getting a little too cocky for my taste.

 

[No-name]

Ok, guys case closed, I hate typing. For all I care, we can say you are right I am wrong, I just hate debating over a topic that seems so useless. Kirei... Don't ever say anything like "Real Christian like, huh?" When you are not a Christian. You don't understand anything about it.

You sound frustrated. Don't be.

If the topic is useless file in 1Timothy "the endless disputation" roundfile and move on. If you can squeeze either entertainment or enlightement out of something, then it is not useless.

Don't assume Kirei Na Me is not a Christian just because she thinks that Jimmy's rant is un-Christ like. I'm a Christian and I thought it was an aweful thing to say. Even if she is not a Christian, she may understand a great deal more than you or I do.

Relax. You won't be tested on any of this.

 

[BamaFan2989]

What? I never said that I didn't think what he said was bad. It's just the way she typed it lol, I took it sarcastic. You know just screw this, I am only gonna post on the learning and all things forums. It's no big deal. I am a christian too. Not someone who calls themselves a Christian, but I know where I am going. I just don't think fussing is all worth anything.

 

[Elizabeth]

It's not that you didn't see them, or read about it, it didn't/does happen....911 played a huge role in Bushes policy...and even if I'm European...there are loads more of Americans who know shit about the topic or even have the slightest idea what the war is about...so I don't think what u said makes sense...you don't have to be american to understnad what's going on that's how americans are..They think cause it's about America...no one else knows about it, or doesn't know better than the Americans...(don't want to be rude but it's that way). Also the majority seemed to vote for Bush...he is good at winning people for his cause by using GOD....there is what the majority believes in...without GOD bush would have less votes.He actually said in a speech that Kerry isn't religious, after that we saw a lot of ppl voting for Bush, cause he used that against Kerry...and knew the Americans would be a ****** for the God thing(this is one points of the many he used)

I never said 9-11 didn't play a huge role in his policy -- the point being that terrorism was the most important issue for about 17 percent of voters, 80 % or so of whom voted for Bush. The war scored around 19% I believe, 70-80% supporting the president. However listening to and reading interviews with those people no one so far has mentioned voting for Bush because he captured Hussein and certainly not because the Iraq operation has been well-managed. But despite not supporting many of his policies, they trust Bush's character, his strong and decisive leadership which, along with other moral considerations, gave him the edge over Kerry. Assuming Bush's actions had been exactly the same but he had Kerry's personality he would have lost by a healthy margin in my opinion.

 

[MeAndroo]

I never said 9-11 didn't play a huge role in his policy -- the point being that terrorism was the most important issue for about 17 percent of voters, 80 % or so of whom voted for Bush. The war scored around 19% I believe, 70-80% supporting the president. However listening to and reading interviews with those people no one so far has mentioned voting for Bush because he captured Hussein and certainly not because the Iraq operation has been well-managed. But despite not supporting many of his policies, they trust Bush's character, his strong and decisive leadership which, along with other moral considerations, gave him the edge over Kerry. Assuming Bush's actions had been exactly the same but he had Kerry's personality he would have lost by a healthy margin in my opinion.

That's about as well put as you're going to see it. What's funny is the right convinces themselves that Bush won because people are pro-war and the left convinces themselves that the entire country was completely bamboozled. Sweeping general statements are always wrong. Always.

 

[Mike Cash]

Umm, I'm not American, but anyways.....

im not talkin about the election, the candidates, or the election, i'm talkin about what you wrote. U said u want to stop gay ppl from being married so that u can show them the gosple of Jesus. That is forcing your values and beleifs on them

No.....it's voting in accordance with one's own beliefs and principles....which happens to be protected under the First Amendment. (And he's too young to vote yet anyway).

You're just too young to understand, when I was your age I thought like a ***** too

Could I borrow those words? I'd like to say them to you and it would save me some typing.

...in time you'll know that the stuff u posted is wrong ...as for now, I think u shouldn't be participating in this conversation as u clearly don't know anything about the topic, or put something valuable to the forum

And since this involves the internal domestic policies of a country not your own, I can't understand why you are participating in it. I can understand it when non-Americans say they take an interest in the election of an American president because America exercises its influence around the globe. But I can't understand what concern it is of non-Americans how Americans feel about (or vote on) the issue of gay marriage or domestic partnerships.

I won't go so far as to tell you that you shouldn't be participating, because I don't believe in restricting the free speech of anyone, even (especially) those who don't agree with me.

I'm sure this isn't the actual case, but it seems to me that every time I encounter someone trying to limit the free speech of others it is a liberal doing it.

America should be a land of free speech, AND opinion !!! So far it has proven the oposite to me[

How so? The way I read your post it is a Belgian telling an American he should stop expressing his views and opinions here because he doesn't like them. I haven't seen any Americans telling you to keep your opinions to yourself.

The full exercising of free speech involves other people saying things you'd rather not hear. It even includes Americans making their opinion on gay marriage known at the ballot box.

 

[Duo]

Kirei... Don't ever say anything like "Real Christian like, huh?" When you are not a Christian. You don't understand anything about it.

Dude, who do you think your talkin 2 ? Don't they teach respect there amongst other christian values? U think you undertsand Christiniaty ? There are priest who study it the whole life and are not as presemtous as yourself. Your attitude tells me your just a kid who thinks he has figured the world out, and has nothing left to learn. If the world was fulll of ppl like you we would still be stuck in medieval huts thinking the earth is flat. U think you're the only one who lives in a christian sorrounding or what ? Most societies in Europe are based on the goodwill nature of Christian values, but there is a clear line drawn here, no relgion and politics.

I can understand it when non-Americans say they take an interest in the election of an American president because America exercises its influence around the globe. But I can't understand what concern it is of non-Americans how Americans feel about (or vote on) the issue of gay marriage or domestic partnerships.

I guess that like most other Europeans, ppl here are getting a real shock at how backward the US really is. Perhaps many were dissillusioned by Amercian movies, popular media and sitcoms, but many were not probaply aware of the big evangelical presence in the US. If you had asked me 4 years ago about these issues, I would have categorialy denied any such posiibility

 

[Mike Cash]

What is the law in Belgium (and other European countries, if you know the answer) regarding gay marriage?

 

[Maciamo]

What is the law in Belgium (and other European countries, if you know the answer) regarding gay marriage?

Please have a look at this site, which explains the position of many countries regarding gay marriage.

As for Belgium, it says the Senate already approved gay marriage in 2002, and that it needs to be passed by the Lower House too, but don't know if it's already done or not.

Denmark was the first country to allow same-sex marriage in 1989. In most European countries (France, Germany, Scandinavia, Benelux, Portugal...) gay couples have the same rights as married people. Some countries (Denmark, Netherlands...) allow full marriage. Some countries also allow gay couples to adopt children.

Anyway, marriage itself is not really an issue in Europe as 1/3 to 1/2 of regular couples are now cohabiting or having children together without being married.

Personally, I am not gay (not even remotely), and do not have any friends or relative who are, I find it disturbing to see two men holding hands or kissing, but I come from a modern and tolerant society and accept that in the 21st century it is normal to give the same rights to gay couples as to others. Anyway, the issue is not to ban homosexuality altogether, and not even whether one likes homosexuals or have any aquaintances who are. It's about a country being democratic (i.e. listening to the minorities, rather than oppressing them) and giving everyone the same freedom regardless of their race, sex, or sexual orientation.

Sorry, but I can't help sneering at people who don't understand such basic principles of democracy.

 

[Mike Cash]

Thanks for the link, Maciamo.

USA
June 26, 2002. President Bush has signed a bill allowing death benefits to be paid to the domestic partners of firefighters and police officers who die in the line of duty, permanently extending a federal death benefit to same-sex couples for the first time. Gay marriage is only legal in Vermont.

Admittedly, not much. I wonder what steps were taken during the previous administration to further the legalization of gay marriage.

 

[Duo]

What is the law in Belgium (and other European countries, if you know the answer) regarding gay marriage?

I don't know about all the countries, but here some months ago, a male gay couple got married, I saw it on the news. So I guess it is allowed

Personally, I am not gay (not even remotely), and do not have any friends or relative who are, I find it disturbing to see two men holding hands or kissing, but I come from a modern and tolerant society and accept that in the 21st century it is normal to give the same rights to gay couples as to others. Anyway, the issue is not to ban homosexuality altogether, and not even whether one likes homosexuals or have any aquaintances who are. It's about a country being democratic (i.e. listening to the minorities, rather than oppressing them) and giving everyone the same freedom regardless of their race, sex, or sexual orientation.

Sorry, but I can't help sneering at people who don't understand such basic principles of democracy.

Heh, my sentiments exactly, well said

 

[Elizabeth]

I guess that like most other Europeans, ppl here are getting a real shock at how backward the US really is. Perhaps many were dissillusioned by Amercian movies, popular media and sitcoms, but many were not probaply aware of the big evangelical presence in the US. If you had asked me 4 years ago about these issues, I would have categorialy denied any such posiibility

I don't see many so-called "third world immigrants" kashii: (anyone outside the EU) on the British comedies I watch either, can I now "categorically deny" nearly a million are coming every year or that there is controversy about the growing Muslim presence in a Europe based on "Christian values" (which hardly anyone needs to actually practice) ? The mere suggestion that anyone could have an utter certainty about the people and values of any one country based on their movies and sitcoms is one of the most absurd statements I've read here in a long, long while. :sorry:

 

[Duo]

Ummm
I see, I see ; but ppl who actually havent seen the US only know it through Tv, mtv, friends, movies etc. Trust me, many ppl think that the US is paved of gold. Young ppl especially are influenced a lot by US popular media, they dont read or know what the US is really about,they just see the glamour of mtv videoz and things like that. I didnt say a certainty about the ppl or the values of the country, I said an impression of it. Your post is confusing, i have a hard time reading it. What's your point? I dont get it. Maybe it's me, but I dont think so. Maybe it's you :? Anyways, I hope I answered the last part of your question ok.
Well watever, have fun.

 

[Elizabeth]

Ummm
I see, I see ; but ppl who actually havent seen the US only know it through Tv, mtv, friends, movies etc. Trust me, many ppl think that the US is paved of gold. Young ppl especially are influenced a lot by US popular media, they dont read or know what the US is really about,they just see the glamour of mtv videoz and things like that. I didnt say a certainty about the ppl or the values of the country, I said an impression of it. Your post is confusing, i have a hard time reading it. What's your point? I dont get it. Maybe it's me, but I dont think so. Maybe it's you :? Anyways, I hope I answered the last part of your question ok.
Well watever, have fun.

Anyone with those sources of influence will naturally be disenchanted at some point, for all the supposed European sophistication and education that represents a pretty damning perspective on the world. Although I didn't realize either that most European young people had such a high opinion of the US prior to these election results. And anyone that could "categorically deny" the influence of evangelical protestants four years ago (whatever that means, since Bush could not have won without them then either) must also be pretty delusional or attending only to highly selective sources, no better in the end than popular culture or the insularity of the Christian right you condemn so strongly. kashii:

 

[Miss_apollo7]

What is the law in Belgium (and other European countries, if you know the answer) regarding gay marriage?

I just found this link on gay marriage laws around the world.

In Denmark:

In 1989 became the first country in the world to allow same-sex marriages. In 2000, Denmark passed a law that gives homosexuals couples the right to obtain custody of children by a previous heterosexual marriage.

I have four gay friends/aquaintances, and three of them would like to get married when they have found "the one".

Here is the link:
http://usmarriagelaws.com/search/al...rriage/gay_laws_around_the_world_/index.shtml

 

[Glenn]

I see, I see ; but ppl who actually havent seen the US only know it through Tv, mtv, friends, movies etc.

I just wanted to say that if people are really thinking of the US by what they see on MTV, then God, Allah, Vishnu, Buddha, et al help us all. MTV is evil, and no one should pay any attention to it. But then again I hate MTV.

 

[Winter]

After reading way too many of these types of threads, I'm gonna get on my usual high-horse and say...

Everybody should just listen to Mikecash, then stifle it.

Just my opinion.

 

[bossel]

for all the supposed European sophistication and education that represents a pretty damning perspective on the world.

:? Which sources do you have for that?

 

[Mike Cash]

It's about a country being democratic (i.e. listening to the minorities, rather than oppressing them) and giving everyone the same freedom regardless of their race, sex, or sexual orientation.

Sorry, but I can't help sneering at people who don't understand such basic principles of democracy.

But "listening to the minorities" doesn't equal "letting the minorities have their own way". People in several US states did listen to the minorities; they put the matter to a vote. With the uniform result of the minority losing overwhelmingly.

When liberals control the government, we hear "the majority rules".
When conservatives control government, we hear "if you don't accede to our wishes, you're not democratic".

Those who support measures legalizing gay marriage were able to freely assemble....a right guaranteed by the Constitution, and a basic principle of democracy.

Those who support measures legalizing gay marriage were able to freely voice their opinions....a a right guaranteed by the Constitution, and a basic principle of democracy.

They had full and equal access to the legal mechanisms which allow for implementing their goal. They had full freedom to convince others to join them in supporting implementation of the goal. That they failed to convince enough people to support them does not mean that their voices were not heard or that democracy failed.

 

[Maciamo]

I don't see many so-called "third world immigrants" kashii: (anyone outside the EU) on the British comedies I watch either

If you watch movies with Hugh Grant then there is litttle chance. However, watching any Britsih soap opera (like 'Eastenders'), you'll definitely see 2nd or 3rd generations immigrants from India or the Carribean (among others).

Ummm
I see, I see ; but ppl who actually havent seen the US only know it through Tv, mtv, friends, movies etc. Trust me, many ppl think that the US is paved of gold.

Well of course as they mostly show California and New York, which are much richer and much more liberal than the average (and voted for Kerry).