Life After Death

[Tsuyoiko]

So, water from health resort is placebo or not? Spoon of salt as an emetic is placebo?

I don't think we can say with certainty how these things work - it is probably a combination of clinical effect and placebo effect, but without proper clinical studies we can't say - it's not enough to rely on anecdotal evidence, although if someone says they feel better, good for them. I know that peppermint tea cures indigestion and that lemon and ginger tea with honey stops a cold coming on, but only because I have tried it and it works for me.

 

[bossel]

So, water from health resort is placebo or not? Spoon of salt as an emetic is placebo?

Your definition, I believe, exclude natural medicine from placebo effect.

You have to differentiate between placebo & placebo effect. Placebo effect is possible with pretty much everything there is, from "healthy" water to banging your head against the wall.

If the spoon of salt you mentioned actually causes throwing up, then it's no placebo (but I never heard that you throw up from a spoon of salt, won't try it, though).

I know that peppermint tea cures indigestion and that lemon and ginger tea with honey stops a cold coming on, but only because I have tried it and it works for me.

For my girlfriend this would be ginger broth, which doesn't help me. I can do with a lot of sleep. Works best (for me).

 

[Kinsao]

I agree with Tsuyoiko, if something works for a person, it doesn't matter whether or not it's placebo effect. Of course, that depends on the person... but if it is making them feel better, that's fine.

... or Reclaiming Our Health, by John Robbins, heir to the Baskin Robbins Ice Cream Chain.

Sorry, I couldn't resist this one........... is there some hitherto undiscovered health-giving power of ice cream, that has lain unnoticed by conventional medical professionals for all these years? I would like to think so..... :hihi: It sounds like another layer of meaning there....

 

[lost]

Do you believe in life after death? -yes to all of the above except for death after life.

it's weird but in my religion...when a person die, the dead person becomes 7 souls...one wonders in the human world, lost (not me), one goes to the place where that person have lived or love it with all his or her heart and soul, one goes to hell another goes to heaven, one reincarnates and so on. that's what my parents and grandma told me and i believe in it. it really makes since when i connect all the dots on how my religion works. spirits of our ancestors always will be with us. But they are also reborned and there are proofs...which it's complacated to explain...i need more time...but anyways, it's like a person have done good and bad during their life time. therefore, the bad side of the person goes to hell and gets torture as the good side goes to heaven and do whatever.

i think it really depends on what you really believe in...and basically that is what you will end up after death.

in some part of china...there is the believe that after a person dies...the spirit had to climb up a very high mountain and drink some kind of water, which erases the memories of that life and then the person reincarnates.

i just wanna share this wit you guys...

 

[Tsuyoiko]

in some part of china...there is the believe that after a person dies...the spirit had to climb up a very high mountain and drink some kind of water, which erases the memories of that life and then the person reincarnates.

They had a similar belief in ancient Greece too - the soul would drink the waters of the River Lethe and forget everything that had happened during its life.

 

[belle74311]

I just wanted to say that there is DEFINATELY life after death. Just because we can't comprehend it or don't want to believe in it doesn't mean it's not going to happen.

You guys have to look at the big picture here. Everyone is born into life and every single person will go through death. Earth is a temporary place...we will not be here forever and no one can decide not to die and stay here forever.

It's easy to not think too much about it because it's the "unknown", but come on guys...this is YOUR life here. Don't you think it deserves a more serious thought and research?

I don't get it..why is it that people take such good care of their bodies by going to the gym, a yearly doctor's checkup, eating healthy and all that, but COMPLETELY ignore their souls?

No one can deny that life is temporary, and i'm sorry but it's such a thoughtless idea to believe if after ALL this that there was no purpose for it. After billions of people have lived and existed on this earth, fought wars and a constant battle b/t good and evil and it was all for nothing. Do you think that a person who murders and rapes and steals is the same as a person who gives charity, takes good care of their family and fights oppresion ???

Hate to break it to you guys but we are going to be accountable for ourselves. After we die, NOTHING will come with us except our deeds. And we are going to have to answer to God when He asks us what we did with our life. Did we waste it? Did we put it to good use?

Think about it guys...like REALLY think about life..it's worth it.

 

[bossel]

Don't you think it deserves a more serious thought and research?
[...]it's such a thoughtless idea to believe if after ALL this that there was no purpose for it.
[...]
And we are going to have to answer to God when He asks us what we did with our life.

You talk of thoughtlessness? How much thought did you put into biblical logic? How much thought made you believe in this particular religion instead of hundreds of others which offer you consolation?
Taking your ideas from some ages-old book & then accusing those who don't do the same of being thoughtless is quite strange.

After billions of people have lived and existed on this earth, fought wars and a constant battle b/t good and evil and it was all for nothing.

Ah, you see, if all those idiots who died fighting for their belief had thought instead, "Oh, this is the only life I have. Why should I fight & die for some silly idea?", maybe there would have been less fighting & dying.

Do you think that a person who murders and rapes and steals is the same as a person who gives charity, takes good care of their family and fights oppresion ???

Actually, you can find people who combine all this.

 

[belle74311]

bossel, it is absolutely thoughtless to think after you die it just ends. I mean what kind of thought is put into that exactly? Where's the logic coming from? Can you prove it?

How much thought did i put into biblical logic? #1 i'm not Christian so I don't go by biblical logic. I have looked at all sorts of religions...and I chose the one that made perfect sense. The complete truth, not 1/2 truths. Anyone with common sense and a desire to know the truth, by God's will, will come to know of it. So how much thought did I put into my belief? Years and years of research, reflecting, comparing with other religions, science, literature and such. And it can be proven as well. But the blind will never see and the deaf will never hear.

As for your comment about people's reasons for fighting war, everyone had a different one. My point is that tremendous things have happened in our history and still continue to happen. And there are signs for those who reflect.

Absolutely you can find people who combine all the things i mentioned. I don't doubt that, but that simply wasn't my question.

 

[bossel]

it is absolutely thoughtless to think

Aha! Now I see where you're coming from. Not really a surprise, actually.

I mean what kind of thought is put into that exactly? Where's the logic coming from? Can you prove it?

Scientific thought.
Science & my brain.
Nope, can you prove your point?

Did you actually read this thread? If so, why ask these questions?

#1 i'm not Christian so I don't go by biblical logic.

You sure sound like a Christian, but sorry for assuming.

and I chose the one that made perfect sense. The complete truth, not 1/2 truths. Anyone with common sense and a desire to know the truth, by God's will, will come to know of it.

Hmm, isn't that what all those religions claim? The complete, 1 & only truth.

And it can be proven as well.

Proven by belief?

Absolutely you can find people who combine all the things i mentioned. I don't doubt that, but that simply wasn't my question.

Your question was

Do you think that a person who murders and rapes and steals is the same as a person who gives charity, takes good care of their family and fights oppresion ???

Since it can be (& is, in a number of cases) the very same person, your question is answered.

 

[belle74311]

bossel,

I'm not here to convince you or fight you. I have my point of view and you have the right to have yours. My belief can it be proven? Absolutely. But you will have to be a very patient person if you want to see the proof. I can't just type it up in one page the things that I have learned in years!

All religions claim to be the truth, I agree with you. This is the part where you have to really put your effort into research. Humans are very smart beings, we are capable of understanding what makes sense and what doesn't. BUT if you cover your eye and you say I can't see, this is not the fault of the religion. If you cover your ears and say I can't hear, you're the only one to blame for it.

And it seems as though it's a very simple question you just don't want to answer. It's a rhetorical question anyway...i wasn't expecting anyone to actually answer it. It's just to think about.

People tend to think that science and religion are at opposite ends. They are very much together. The only time science and religion does not agree is only when scienctists make a mistake...as it has been done so many times in the past. And as we know...science is ever changing and only some things are a definite like the earth is a sphere and it orbits around the sun. (Which is written in my religion over 1400 years ago) People used to believe that the earth was flat, that the sun orbitted around the earth, that the earth does not move. So at what point do you determine what scientists claim to be the truth? Becaues this takes place even now. So do you just take their word for it? I mean i'm trying to undersand where you are coming from.

And there are so many scientists/doctors out there that get their information from religious sources! Glory be to God! We can not surpass God's knowledge.

 

[Kama]

May I ask what is your religion? You sound for me like a missionary, or fighter of God. That is a wrong way to discuss with people.

You say there is a life after death. What it looks like?

Also, I think that religion is different from science in 2 very important points:

1. You have to believe in what your religion says. For example: If I am a Christian, I believe that Mary was virgin when she give birth to Jesus. If I am a Muslim, I believe that Koran was sent by God via Jibril to the Prophet. etc. Sure, people do have mind and can see (for example) that God sent exact rules how divide the assets after a person's death etc. Strange, isn't it?

2. Two different people will see something very different. Religion is something that is different depending on a person who looks at her. Religion and believes are highly individual. It doesn't make her false. Just everybody has it's own truth.

I was born into Christian family, but I do not look at myself as a Christian. I was interested in world religions since I can remember. I have read about different religions, beliefs, at studies I studied it more closely. I have my mind and I think for myself. I don't like "when you were hit on cheek..." etc. I follow Christians rituals like: Easter, Christmas, just like Japanese go on a matsuri. I do not fast. My religion doesn't require me to do so.

Yes, my religion. It is something I believe in. I have MADE it to suit me, and I don't see a need to change it, since when I decided on it. My religion is combined of JudeoChristianity, AssyroBabilonian, Satanism, Animism, Buddhism, Magic, and my own thoughts... When somebody asks me what I believe in I say: Animism.

We can't surpass God's knowledge? But we can use it.

 

[Kinsao]

Also, I think that religion is different from science in 2 very important points:

1. You have to believe in what your religion says. For example: If I am a Christian, I believe that Mary was virgin when she give birth to Jesus.

Actually, it is scientifically possible for an egg cell to begin to divide in such a way although unfertilised by sperm cell. This has been rarely observed in some cases (human).

I'm not saying that to make a pro-religion argument or something - just as a fact.

I think it is true that religion and science do not have to be far apart. Science is about discovering how things work, and that's not in any way incompatible with a belief in a god. Where they come into opposition is when religious tradition insists on maintaining as fact a superstition which has been disproved by science.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

My belief can it be proven? Absolutely. But you will have to be a very patient person if you want to see the proof. I can't just type it up in one page the things that I have learned in years!

The word 'proof' has many different meanings - you are referring to proof as in "The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true". Scientific proof is "The validation of a proposition by application of specified rules, as of induction or deduction, to assumptions, axioms, and sequentially derived conclusions". Just because the two ideas are expressed using the same word doesn't make them the same. You might just convince me if you could prove it in the second sense, but I highly doubt the first sense will convince me - I have seen the 'evidence' and the 'arguments' and I don't accept them.

BUT if you cover your eye and you say I can't see, this is not the fault of the religion. If you cover your ears and say I can't hear, you're the only one to blame for it.

How many religious people have their eyes and ears wide open, ready to receive the evidence that what they believe might have no grounding in fact?

The only time science and religion does not agree is only when scienctists make a mistake...as it has been done so many times in the past.

So when Galileo was imprisoned, it was because science was mistaken? Was Scopes put on trial because Darwin was wrong?

And as we know...science is ever changing and only some things are a definite like the earth is a sphere and it orbits around the sun.

And that species evolve, that continents drift, that genes are responsible for inheritance, that the sun is a nuclear reactor, that there are holes in the ozone layer...

People used to believe that the earth was flat

There are only two people on record who ever believed this - and both of them were Christians.

So at what point do you determine what scientists claim to be the truth? Becaues this takes place even now. So do you just take their word for it?

When the theory explains more of the evidence than any other explanation we should accept it. With each new discovery that scientists make, we have to abandon less of what we believed before. This suggests that we are edging towards an accurate picture of the universe - although there is still a lot to be learnt.

And there are so many scientists/doctors out there that get their information from religious sources!

Do you have any examples?

 

[Doc]

I was born into Christian family, but I do not look at myself as a Christian. I was interested in world religions since I can remember. I have read about different religions, beliefs, at studies I studied it more closely. I have my mind and I think for myself. I don't like "when you were hit on cheek..." etc. I follow Christians rituals like: Easter, Christmas, just like Japanese go on a matsuri. I do not fast. My religion doesn't require me to do so.

Yes, my religion. It is something I believe in. I have MADE it to suit me, and I don't see a need to change it, since when I decided on it. My religion is combined of JudeoChristianity, AssyroBabilonian, Satanism, Animism, Buddhism, Magic, and my own thoughts... When somebody asks me what I believe in I say: Animism.

You mean anime is a religion for you?! :shock:

Just kidding!

Over 80% of the United States population is in the Christian faith. The moral majority of that 80% would not find you having your own religion to be offensive, evil, or pagan in any way, shape, or form. It is only the fundamentalists were I live that may have a problem. Luckly they only make up about 5-10% of the total Christian population in the United States. So unless you come to a small town filled with them you really do not have to worry about any percecution about having your own religious faith to fit you.

We can't surpass God's knowledge? But we can use it.

Like what is the meaning of life type knowledge? Sorry I couldn't pass that one up!

Doc :wave:

 

[bossel]

I think, Tsuyoiko has answered your post very well, hence only some short points.

And it seems as though it's a very simple question you just don't want to answer.

Which question exactly?

The only time science and religion does not agree is only when scienctists make a mistake

Good to know. If religion is never mistaken, why are there so many different ones?

People used to believe that the earth was flat, that the sun orbitted around the earth, that the earth does not move. So at what point do you determine what scientists claim to be the truth?

Point being: "People used to believe"
At what point did scientists claim the above?

So do you just take their word for it?

The good thing is that contrary to many religions you don't have to take "their" word for it. Science is open to new findings if those can be independently validated.

Actually, it is scientifically possible for an egg cell to begin to divide in such a way although unfertilised by sperm cell. This has been rarely observed in some cases (human).

Really, AFAIK the sperm contains a significant thingy called centrisome without which the egg won't be able to organise its growth properly. Do you have any examples?

Anyway, you don't need such a "miracle". It's possible to have sexual intercourse without hurting the hymen. Or you can have sex without penetration, but the sperm enters the vagina.

 

[lastmagi]

People tend to think that science and religion are at opposite ends. They are very much together.

How so?

So at what point do you determine what scientists claim to be the truth? Becaues this takes place even now. So do you just take their word for it? I mean i'm trying to undersand where you are coming from.

Have you ever looked at any scientific literature? They have a very precise way of going about their experiments, including a discussion on methodology, results, interpretations, etc. It's not simply a matter of taking their word for it, but of the reader being able to see for himself or herself that one thing leads to the next through deductive/inductive reasoning.

And there are so many scientists/doctors out there that get their information from religious sources! Glory be to God! We can not surpass God's knowledge.

Examples would be nice.

 

[Smertrius]

I'm an atheist and i believe that there's nothing after life. However I believe in ghosts and mediums, but the way i see it is something like an echo of an event that happened and is still resounding in the "haunted" place, and which mediums are able to perceive. I cannot explain it but i believe that some places keep the memory of their past.

 

[Mars Man]

I'll post here, if I may, simply for the reason of superb random occurrence. I got a notice in my e-mail box of this above addition to this long dead thread--an event which has never happened (notice of a posting to a thread which I had posted in earlier from this forum), and being moved by such extreme rareness, have decided to respond.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, Smertrius, on the matter of having read the major posts in this thread, and then, will ask to you to firstly define/describe your terms a little more. The word 'ghost' usually refers to an immaterial portion which is the said 'real being,' which survives death (i.e. never dies). In your presentation, therefore, you are saying the same, it seems, but simply postulating that such is simply an 'echo' from past energy arrays/constructs. Is this correct, or does my understanding need adjustment?

 

[Shasta]

Of late i have found myself, every once in awhile, watching one of those ghost hunting shows. In America it seems every broadcast channel has a spirit searching group that TV cameras follow. I call it my religion shows. Can't say I've learned anything. Most of the time I become annoyed at what the guys and gals do. Why do they turn off the lights!? Now that they found "evidence", why don't they go back to that location over and over for more proof!? Obviously, if the "ghost scientists" ever found conclusive life after death evidence it would be earth shattering news.

What ever the answer, I figure the male jihadist has the sweetest after life deal of receiving 72 virgins. Religious scriptures have been known to make translation errors though. A 72 year old virgin wouldn't be so good.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

I believe in metempsychosis or soul transmigration.