Society Low fertility, high migration rate - what will Europe look like in the future?

[Javen]

How will they manage that? Easier to just tell people to have more kids

thats what Japan and Korea seem to be doing

True, but thats the problem, women just dont want to have children

 

[gourd]

Fertility rates can and do change drastically over time to reverse shrinking populations as a result of changes in social pressures (economic, gender relations, individual wealth, religiosity, cultural and otherwise), however, once a population is thoroughly admixed with immigrants which have ancestries that are not similar to the local populace this cannot be "undone", unlike low fertility. We have seen many periods where Europe's population has declined and then resurfaced to produce higher numbers than prior, but we have not seen major genetic turnover in Europe since the bronze age, and even that brought migrants from Anatolia and the European steppe rather than places like Pakistan, Subsaharan Africa, the Arabian Peninsula and East Asia.

What's more is that even in non European populated countries we see large declines in fertility nearly everywhere across the globe as well. It's more apt to say that fertility decline has less to do with Europe specifically than it does with industrialization.

Because of this, it appears to me that North Western European countries are making a large mistake by welcoming mass migration as the end result of these policies will be nations that no longer resemble the populations they had in times prior. Countries who are not welcoming mass migration may experience population declines temporarily for several decades due to lower fertility but are likely to eventually recover once these trends reverse, while retaining their historic genealogy.

I think resemblance to previous populations is unimportant. we've had constant populations turnovers everywhere anyways. also even within countries we have large phenotypic differences aside from skin color and some other rather superficial traits, sometimes based on little genetic difference.
for me, i don't care about keeping up a certain resemblance to ancient populations. this is small-minded imo. it is way more important that the people who enter the country have a good character.
there are many things that for me define a good character for example: not caring about religion, empathy, open minded etc.

 

[Vitruvius]

I think resemblance to previous populations is unimportant. we've had constant populations turnovers everywhere anyways. also even within countries we have large phenotypic differences aside from skin color and some other rather superficial traits, sometimes based on little genetic difference.
for me, i don't care about keeping up a certain resemblance to ancient populations. this is small-minded imo. it is way more important that the people who enter the country have a good character.
there are many things that for me define a good character for example: not caring about religion, empathy, open minded etc.

I disagree strongly. I think the biological extinction of ancient populations is a travesty and that biological nation states should maintain their broad genetic character along with their unique languages and culture. It's not simply just an appearance I refer to but an actual biological code which determines population norms for personality traits and many other behavioral norms. I counter that for one to say this is unimportant or that these things don't matter is what I would personally consider "small-minded".

Plus the things you consider "good character" are not necessarily the same criteria that others will agree with so it's very futile to talk about such a thing as agreeable and self evident. Considering that the vast majority of human beings follow or adhere to some form of organized religion, you have immediately disqualified the vast majority of planet earth as being of "good character" and conversely the majority of the population of planet earth would disagree with you. I think those who are truly open minded are aware of the fact that diversity consists in the maintained existence of differences between various populations and ethnic groups rather than the mass assimilation and blending of the biological and cultural aspects which make us unique to begin with.

 

[Kirgonix Pereira]

I think it has a lot to do with our society.
I will give the example of Portugal.
In the past, my great-grandmothers, grandparents and their ancestors had between 4 and 8 children to help with the corn/wheat cultivation and agricultural work and I think that in the rest of Europe the reality was the same. So couples had many children to have more labor (imagine it as a family business but where the profit goes to the head of the family).

Over time, European conditions have changed and, as they rightly said, women now have a more active role in the working part of society and, as such, they spend the same amount of time at home as a man. This coupled with the fact that having a child, unlike in the past when it would be another source of income, is considered a cost leads to this abrupt drop that we see in many parts of Europe (with exceptions, namely northern Europe, where the level of life is longer and allows you to bear more costs when having a child).

In genetic terms, what does this mean for Europe?
The percentages of R1b in Western Europe (taking into account migration) will probably fall by half, combined with the great growth of lineages coming from Muslim countries (these populations have more children), along with Islam rising as a great european religion.
In Eastern Europe, I believe the genetic distribution will remain the same as they are not nations that welcome so many foreigners, however they will become more deserted regions.

 

[gourd]

I disagree strongly. I think the biological extinction of ancient populations is a travesty and that biological nation states should maintain their broad genetic character along with their unique languages and culture. It's not simply just an appearance I refer to but an actual biological code which determines population norms for personality traits and many other behavioral norms. I counter that for one to say this is unimportant or that these things don't matter is what I would personally consider "small-minded".

Plus the things you consider "good character" are not necessarily the same criteria that others will agree with so it's very futile to talk about such a thing as agreeable and self evident. Considering that the vast majority of human beings follow or adhere to some form of organized religion, you have immediately disqualified the vast majority of planet earth as being of "good character" and conversely the majority of the population of planet earth would disagree with you. I think those who are truly open minded are aware of the fact that diversity consists in the maintained existence of differences between various populations and ethnic groups rather than the mass assimilation and blending of the biological and cultural aspects which make us unique to begin with.

we've had populations mixing all the time. i agree with you that behavioural norms are probably determined at least partially by the gene pool of the population. but imo even very slight differences here can drastically change everything. and even if the behavioural norms of a different country differ drastically there will still be a lot of people from that country who would genetically not only fit into another population but also even be a valuable addition there.

I think those who are truly open minded are aware of the fact that diversity consists in the maintained existence of differences between various populations and ethnic groups rather than the mass assimilation and blending of the biological and cultural aspects which make us unique to begin with.

imagine, if you wanted to do that, we would all have to stay forever where we were born and only do things that were already done 100 years ago. this goes completely against human nature. we are programmed to try new things and experiment.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Less European, less blue eyes, fewer Barbie girls

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Balkans hasn't taken many immigrants and hopefully never will

You have not been watching the news or talked to people there. Rama has been bringing Bangladeshis, Filipinos, Afghans, etc... as workers, they are already working, even rural areas. They get paid at least as much as Albanians, often more, and with free housing and food. This is not a free market forces meeting out demand, this is a orchestrated and financed colonization.

At the Berlin process meeting held recently, a contract has been signed with Germany. Germany will take Albanian youth as workers(guaranteed work contracts) in return Albania will take Germany's most criminal illegals, at least 250k criminals. By 2030, Albania will be no different than France.

 

[norbert]

You have not been watching the news or talked to people there. Rama has been bringing Bangladeshis, Filipinos, Afghans, etc... as workers, they are already working, even rural areas. They get paid at least as much as Albanians, often more, and with free housing and food. This is not a free market forces meeting out demand, this is a orchestrated and financed colonization.

At the Berlin process meeting held recently, a contract has been signed with Germany. Germany will take Albanian youth as workers(guaranteed work contracts) in return Albania will take Germany's most criminal illegals, at least 250k criminals. By 2030, Albania will be no different than France.

Albania may have the advantage that most of those criminals wouldn't opt for staying in Albania. Why should they when even Albanians are fleeing Albania? What you call free housing is a joke compared to what they expect to get in Germany and other wealthy EU states. Btw, I sense some irony in calling others criminals. Quite a portion of the so-called asylum seekers from Kosovo (you can't make this up) are notorious criminals, for instance in England. They got their "independent country" but can't wait to flee it. What brave and proud Dardanians!

 

[Denxz]

Albania may have the advantage that most of those criminals wouldn't opt for staying in Albania. Why should they when even Albanians are fleeing Albania? What you call free housing is a joke compared to what they expect to get in Germany and other wealthy EU states. Btw, I sense some irony in calling others criminals. Quite a portion of the so-called asylum seekers from Kosovo (you can't make this up) are notorious criminals, for instance in England. They got their "independent country" but can't wait to flee it. What brave and proud Dardanians!

First time I have ever heard of notorious criminals from Kosovo in the UK being that numerous. Can you show me some examples ? Most of the crime wave in the UK comes from gangs recruiting people from Northern Albania. Not even in Southern Albania. They also pretend to be from Kosovo in order to get UK citizenship so they claim they fled war and persecution. Yes, people do leave like everywhere else in the Balkans but there are also people who stay. Irrelevant weather it's an independent country or not I just see it as people who were divided into different regions, I don't expect people to stay because it's independent. Just take a look at the low level of rights the Albanians in the Presheva valley in Serbia have

Ethnic Albanians in the southern Serbian municipalities of Presevo, Bujanovic, and Medvegja have been illegally and systemically removed from the Serbian civil registry to the tune of over 6000 citizens over the last few years. This has removed the right of Albanians to vote, access healthcare and education, buy and sell property and benefit from state services.

Kurti asks Albania to raise issue of Albanians in Presevo Valley with Serbia

www.euractiv.com

 

[Denxz]

That whole Kosovan asylum seekers being notorious criminals you most definitely made up . I did a google search and did not find a single thing because I am pretty sure that the Albanian criminals in the UK are mostly from few regions in Northern Albania. Kosovars there do not top the crime statistics nor do they in most countries . They are beaten by other ethnicities. It also depends on the crimes committed.

 

[Denxz]

You have not been watching the news or talked to people there. Rama has been bringing Bangladeshis, Filipinos, Afghans, etc... as workers, they are already working, even rural areas. They get paid at least as much as Albanians, often more, and with free housing and food. This is not a free market forces meeting out demand, this is a orchestrated and financed colonization.

At the Berlin process meeting held recently, a contract has been signed with Germany. Germany will take Albanian youth as workers(guaranteed work contracts) in return Albania will take Germany's most criminal illegals, at least 250k criminals. By 2030, Albania will be no different than France.

Actual criminals will be taken in ? I don't see how the average Albanian is a criminal except for some diaspora trash .
People in the Balkans are leaving in general, Southern Serbia has lots of empty land but they need to grab more land from their neighbors lol. Serbia is filled with criminals, even the Serb minority in Kosovo are people that run drug labs .

 

[kingjohn]

Very muslim
At least western europe
Eastern europe is another story

 

[norbert]

First time I have ever heard of notorious criminals from Kosovo in the UK being that numerous. Can you show me some examples ? Most of the crime wave in the UK comes from gangs recruiting people from Northern Albania. Not even in Southern Albania. They also pretend to be from Kosovo in order to get UK citizenship so they claim they fled war and persecution. Yes, people do leave like everywhere else in the Balkans but there are also people who stay. Irrelevant weather it's an independent country or not I just see it as people who were divided into different regions, I don't expect people to stay because it's independent. Just take a look at the low level of rights the Albanians in the Presheva valley in Serbia have

Kurti asks Albania to raise issue of Albanians in Presevo Valley with Serbia

www.euractiv.com

I love how you demand I present proof for Albanian criminals from Kosovo while claiming the Serbs from Kosovo run drug labs. Criminals or not, why are so many Kosovars seeking asylum in the EU, Switzerland and the UK? What is their asylum status supposed to be based on? Is there war in Kosovo? No. Are they persecuted? No. As for the Preshevo Valley, I wouldn't expect the Serbian state to be particularly fond of the Albanians there after Kosovo was taken away from Serbia illegally. I'm not denying the fact that Serbia treated the Albanians badly ever since the Balkan Wars in 1912/13. Like so many countries in the world, Serbia was trying to get rid of all the elements it deemed disloyal and obstructive during the consolidation of its state authority. Look how Turkey treated and still treats the Armenians, Kurds or Greeks. Greece isn't any better in its treatment of minorities (Albanians/Arvanites included) nor was Albania for that matter or Bulgaria. They all denied that minorities even exist and pursued radical assimilation policies according to which members of those minorities had to change their names or were denied upholding their language and culture. Yugoslavia was the only country in the Balkans that did not follow that kind of policy. There was a resurgence of Serbian nationalism and its absurd claims after Tito's death in 1980 but the Albanians were adding fuel to the fire by demanding Kosovo be elevated to the status of a federal republic. That is just asking for trouble and maybe the Serbs fear the same in Preshevo. If NATO disappears, it will be a matter of time before we'll see a revival of Albanian separatism in (North) Macedonia and maybe even Montenegro.

Crime exists everywhere and I'm not singling out the Albanians. But as far as the Balkans is concerned, the main crime syndicates are consisted of Albanians, Serbs and Montenegrins. They are the main drug cartels and then there is the issue of organ and girl trafficking which is a specialty of the Albanian mafia from Kosovo. Albania seems more cultured. One of my best friends is from Albania and people from there seem to be more educated. Nevertheless, Albania is faced with a huge emigration problem of qualified young people. I think just recently the Albanian parliament passed a law that every medicine graduate has to stay in Albania for at least 5 years before he/she can choose to work abroad. That's a good and necessary step. Some Eastern European countries like Romania and Bulgaria are struggling with the same problem.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Albania may have the advantage that most of those criminals wouldn't opt for staying in Albania. Why should they when even Albanians are fleeing Albania? What you call free housing is a joke compared to what they expect to get in Germany and other wealthy EU states. Btw, I sense some irony in calling others criminals. Quite a portion of the so-called asylum seekers from Kosovo (you can't make this up) are notorious criminals, for instance in England. They got their "independent country" but can't wait to flee it. What brave and proud Dardanians!

You are approaching through through a free market perimeter. But we are not under free markets. I do not know the conditions or subsidizes that will be given for these "failed asylum seekers". The intention is clear, a redistribution of non-Europeans, to make all regions aligns with western European demographics. The government that runs Albania is now focusing on repelling the few people that live in the countryside by seizing their water springs. An economic model that has been piloted in Albania for almost a decade, will later be implemented in the entire EU. The state will sell what they own to outside multi-national corporations/partnerships, this means the taxpayer paid for the cost(because the state build the projects(roads, bridges, hydro plants, what have you)), and foreign corporations eat up the profits(they literally buy the right to reap the profit). In Albania it is called PPC, I forgot what it stands for. The mastermind of this new economic model is Ricardo Hausmann, the economist that destroyed Venezuela, now works for Harvard, and through Sorros foundation(s) have implement this model in Albania. Under current law(put in place by the current regime), all property can be seized by the state, reimbursed at a value they determine(way below market value) and sold to a "strategic investor". The PPC model does not apply only for big projects, but all the way down to individual property. That's how they are seizing water springs, that's how they are planning to take over farmland, which will be sold to blackrock. The prime minister recently recruited a blackrock high rank personnel as a economic advisor.

I'll give you a minor example how things work there. Last year watermelon started farmers were complaining that the sale warehouses(goods in wholesale can only enter the market through these monopoly bottlenecks) were offering purchase price below cost. One fellow on his own initiative found Croatian buyers, so he bought the watermelons from the farmers to sell them to Croatian buyers at a profit for all sides, but the water melons were stuck at the loading ducks because the truckers could not ship them. They were threatened by the cops that they would be fined, the roads/highways need lighter traffic to accomodate for tourism. This is on youtube on major news channel.
My first thought was, what about Serbian agricultural goods that have flooded Albanian through Open Balkans, how do those goods get into Albania. Do they fly over with a helicopter or get delivered through trucks. The answer is obvious.

In short Albanians are fleeing and will continue to flee. They have been turned into Palestenians in their own land. Agricultural land will be first rented than purchased by large owners and blackrock and worked by Filipino and Bengladeshi labor. And I will predict, these new landlords will not have any problem selling their produce at a profit to European markets, all of the sudden supply and demand rules will be allowed to operate.

These people mentioned here will be dumped in Albania.

Migration: Germany to deport rejected asylum seekers faster – DW – 10/25/2023

Deportation as a deterrent? Rising refugee numbers have put the German government under pressure. Now, it plans to step up deportations of rejected asylum seekers as part of a tougher migration policy.

www.dw.com

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

You have not been watching the news or talked to people there. Rama has been bringing Bangladeshis, Filipinos, Afghans, etc... as workers, they are already working, even rural areas. They get paid at least as much as Albanians, often more, and with free housing and food. This is not a free market forces meeting out demand, this is a orchestrated and financed colonization.

At the Berlin process meeting held recently, a contract has been signed with Germany. Germany will take Albanian youth as workers(guaranteed work contracts) in return Albania will take Germany's most criminal illegals, at least 250k criminals. By 2030, Albania will be no different than France.

**** that, dont let this happen. Romans already did something like this but didn't go as far as Afghans, why would we let it happen with Albanians in charge

These people should be migrating to countries closer to them, we should only be accepting Ukrainians - I met a Ukrainian girl when I was there on holiday

 

[boriss]

This is done across Macedonia also, suddenly in Eastern Macedonia now that the natives were "moved" large companies have no trouble in paying higher than average pay for Bangladeshi, Nepalis + accommodation and food. Even though few years ago they skipped pays.

Same is done with large construction work that was given to foreign companies like the new highway to Tirana for which Bechtel-Enka (even though Macedonia had tons of construction firms that developed even larger projects) were chosen.

Тhey are currently looking for workers and offer a pay of 330 euros for an architect position - even moll workers earn double that.
For few months this charade will continue on and used as an excuse to important few thousand of foreigners who'll suddenly get much more realistic salaries.

 

[mount123]

@Denxz

He has no proof of that stupid non sense because there is none. It is a blatant lie. Perhaps he was inspired by a Russia Today article or some other kind of Vatnik soup propaganda. Fits in very well with his overall non-evidential crackpot ramblings. There is neither an exodus nor a high number of Kosovar Albanian nationals reportedly seeking asylum in the UK and known for criminal activity.

Serbia is the country with the highest number of convicted war criminals in Europe and organized crime in the Balkans. Nor was Kosova “stolen” from an unimportant landlocked Russian proxy state in the Balkans, also known as Serbia. A genocide against the native Albanian population occurred executed by the Serbian army and paramilitary militia.

He has an unhealthy obsession with Albanians, ranging from genocide denial to pseudoscientific origin theories. I would advise you to ignore him. As far as I can tell, he seems to be part of a “Putin/Milosevic-sympathizers” sect in Western/Central Europe that advocates, among other things, Pan-Slavism and Russian warmongering, and not to forget the “evil West.” The "Slavo-" fits nicely here aswell.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

This is done across Macedonia also, suddenly in Eastern Macedonia now that the natives were "moved" large companies have no trouble in paying higher than average pay for Bangladeshi, Nepalis + accommodation and food. Even though few years ago they skipped pays.

Same is done with large construction work that was given to foreign companies like the new highway to Tirana for which Bechtel-Enka (even though Macedonia had tons of construction firms that developed even larger projects) were chosen.

Тhey are currently looking for workers and offer a pay of 330 euros for an architect position - even moll workers earn double that.
For few months this charade will continue on and used as an excuse to important few thousand of foreigners who'll suddenly get much more realistic salaries.

I figured this was the case. The natives are chased away from their birthright by a leftist global system that masquerades itself as the champion of the oppressed natives. We have all become Palestenians.

Speaking of mega projects. The port of Durres was sold to a mysterious group where only a Saudi/Dubai oligarch was disclosed. Albania's biggest port and the entire neighborhoods around are now owned by this shadow corporation. They will rebuild the entire port and housing/hotels using south Asian labor and turn into a Dubai mega resort. This is third world tourism economy, like the type you see in Mexico or Jamaica, where people vacation in resorts, an enclave that is separate from the rest of the country and natives, separated by walls and armed security. The money goes to corporation and the natives have the opportunity to work as janitors.

 

[boriss]

I figured this was the case. The natives are chased away from their birthright by a leftist global system that masquerades itself as the champion of the oppressed natives. We have all become Palestenians.

Speaking of mega projects. The port of Durres was sold to a mysterious group where only a Saudi/Dubai oligarch was disclosed. Albania's biggest port and the entire neighborhoods around are now owned by this shadow corporation. They will rebuild the entire port and housing/hotels using south Asian labor and turn into a Dubai mega resort. This is third world tourism economy, like the type you see in Mexico or Jamaica, where people vacation in resorts, an enclave that is separate from the rest of the country and natives, separated by walls and armed security. The money goes to corporation and the natives have the opportunity to work as janitors.

I used to think the whole displacement and economical depravation of locals was just local liberal parties getting new voting pool.
Since even if the migrants are of more conservative areas they end up voting left.

But it's something much more sinister and persistent and even though its obvious for most looks like I was naive to believe that we are just ruled by a bunch of kakistocratic old elites.
They are literally maxing out and milking everything they can gain.

It won't take much for our small states an irreversible damage to be done and it looks like we are one the most gullible targets.
Sad thing is that we didn't even have the time to gather same generational wealth so playing catch up is too late now.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Maybe communism has to come back to save europe, this migration nonsense needs to stop. Enver not only didn't let Albanians leave the country but also didn't let them leave their birth city