Source? because FYROM has never proposed any compromises in the past. If you want to talk about politics go right ahead, I'm waiting my friend
Macedonians
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Source? because FYROM has never proposed any compromises in the past. If you want to talk about politics go right ahead, I'm waiting my friend
DejaVu
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What details? You mean your fake conclusions?
This is usual Ottoman Statistic that cruise the web, to prove that during the Ottoman time there were no Macedonians.
It is less known that the Ottomans were dividing the Population by their Religious affiliation, not Ethncity. So the Greeks are the Patriarchist affiliated Population, Bulgarians are the Exarchat affiliated Population, Jews are the Hebrew affiliated Population etc.
Look at the Vilaet of Kosova, you will notice that the majority of the non Moslem Populaton are of Bulgarian affiliation. How ever we know that there are no Bulgarians in Kosovo, thus this Bulgarians in the Ottoman statistics are most likely the Serbs affiliated with the Exarchate, cause the Serb church had no access to Kosovo region till 1912.
Another prove that this statistic are not Ethnic based is the fact that there are Moslem and Catolic affiliated Population. I would like someone to explain me what kind of Ethnic Groups are the Moslem or the Catolic one, if this has to be taken for Ethnic-Group statistic?
Important Note: In the Kosovo Vilayet were included not only modern Kosvo, but Rashka, the old Serbia and Pech - the modern Sit of the Serb Church.
In the words of Essyn Levent Emurla:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Vilayet
There is no Serbs in Kosovo? Are you stupid or what?
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/OttomanMacedonia/statistics.html[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Statistics of the Population of Macedonia before its Partition and the "Macedonian Question"[/FONT]
In 1827, the European powers intervened on behalf of the Greek rebels and forced the Turks to grant them independence. The same powers, established the first modern Greek state, chose Prince Otto of Bavaria to be the "King of the Hellenes", and sent him to Athens. Serbia freed herself also from the Turkish rule, while Russia declared war on Turkey to help Bulgaria gain its independence. The war between Russia and Turkey ended on March 3, 1878, with the peace settlement of San Stefano. The Turks had to agree to the formation of the new Bulgarian state, to also include all of Macedonia but the city of Salonika. Russia was hoping that greater Bulgaria with Macedonia would give her the strategic exit on the Aegean Sea, but she encountered fierce resistance from Austria-Hungary and England that saw their interests on the Balkans endangered. On July 13, 1878 with the Berlin Conference, they forced Russia to give up her dream and the San Stefano agreement was revised. Macedonia was returned to the Ottoman Empire. From this moment, Macedonia became a battleground where the interests not only of the Balkan states, but also of the Great Powers, collide.
The Ohrid Archbishopric was founded as a separate church in 995 to care for the religious needs of the Orthodox Macedonians. However, under the influence of the Greek Orthodox church, the Turkish sultan abolished the Macedonian church in 1767. The Greek Orthodox church was now able to enforce its religious teachings in Greek as the only Orthodox church to exist in the Balkans. Greece hoped to spread her influence and propaganda through the newly opened Greek schools, with a goal to Hellenize the population of Macedonia. But as their influence grew bigger, so did the resistance of the Macedonians. On March 7, 1851, the residents of Enidje-Vardar (today in Greece) signed a petition, for replacement of the teachings in Greek with Macedonian. In 1859, in Kukush was formed the resistance movement against the Hellenization that quickly spread to Voden, Kostur, Lerin, and the rest of southern Macedonia. Adding to the Greek influence, the Bulgarians now opened their schools in Macedonia in 1871, and the Serbs followed shortly after. This is the beginning of the so-called "Macedonian Question".
Statistics without "Macedonians"
There are three statistical tables that the Greeks and the Bulgarians point to show that the Macedonians do not exist as nation, and that Macedonia belongs to ether one of them.
1) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1904, in areas of Macedonia lived:
Macedonia's Districts
Greeks
Bulgarians
Vilaet of Thessalonica
373,227
207,317
Vilaet of Monastir
261,283
178,412
Santzak of Skopje
13,452
172,735
2) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1906, in Macedonia lived:
Muslims
423,000
Greeks
259,000
Bulgarians
178,000
Serbs
13,150
Others (Jews)
73,000
However, the 2 Turkish censuses above cannot be taken into consideration because the Turks registered the inhabitants based upon their religious background, not ethnic. In Macedonia at that moment the Macedonian Orthodox Church was forbidden (upon the insistence of the Greeks in 1767), and the Macedonians had choice to enter either Islam or the only Christian Orthodox Churches the Turks legitimized - and those were the Greek, Bulgarian, or Serbian, because Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia were already independent countries. The Islam was not an option for the first Christians of Europe, and the Macedonians had no other choice but to have religious services in Bulgarian, Greek, or Serbian Church. As result, as it can be seen above, the Turkish census registered Muslims, Jews, and the Christian Macedoniansweredivided depending on which church they belonged - mostly Bulgarian and Greek as it shows.
3) Another table is the one published by the League of the Nations. According to the League of the Nations in 1926, in Aegean Macedonia occupied by Greece in 1913 lived:
Turks
2,000
Greeks
1,341,000
Bulgarisants
77,000
Others (Jews)
91,000
But this map was submitted to the League of the Nations by the Greek government and it is clear that it is biased. The League of the Nations had not visited Aegean Macedonia and did not participate at all in conducting these statistics. Greece here refers to the Macedonians as "bulgarisants", which means "those who pretend to be Bulgarians" and obviously non-Bulgarians. However, Greece uses many other names in falsifying the identity of the Macedonians. Slavophones, Slav Macedonians, Makedoslavs, Slav Greeks, and Bulgarisants, are only some of the names that prove Greece's unpreparess in this mean falsification of the Macedonian people and language.
Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian Statistics of Macedonia's Population
The new independent Balkan states used their Churches and schools to propagate how the Macedonians do not exist, and how Macedonia was populated only by Greeks, Bulgarians, and Serbs. Ethnographers, historians, and writers begun writing books in favor of this or that propaganda. Many of them did not even visit Macedonia, while those who did already had a written scenario. Their presence there was only a simple formality. Table 1 gives an excellent proof of those Balkan speculations and bias surrounding Macedonia:
balkan views
Macedonian Slavs
Serbs
Bulgarians
Greeks
Turks and others
Table 1. Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian Statistics of Macedonia's population
It is more than obvious that all the views coming from the Macedonia's neighbors which sharply contradict eachother, are biased. They all claim their people in Macedonia to justify their well-planned aspirations. It is important to note that both the Bulgarian and Serbian views agree that the Greeks in Macedonia represent only a small minority of 10%. The Greek ethnographer Nikolaides, on the other hand, claims three times bigger number than his colleagues in Belgrade and Sofia. However, the most important about Nikolaides is that he recognizes the Macedonian Slavs as a separate nation, separate from the Bulgarians and the Serbs, to be part of population of Macedonia. And although he tries hard to lower the numbers of those Macedonian Slavs, he still comes up with a convincing proof of their existence.
Independent and Neutral European Statistics of Macedonia's Population
This is the time when many European slavists, ethnographers, and historians, are also attracted to visit Macedonia and conduct their own investigations. Therefore, to find the unbiased population numbers in Macedonia, we have to rely on neutral and independent statistics:
neutral views
Macedonian Slavs
Serbs
Bulgarians
Greeks
Turks and others
Table 2. Independent and Neutral European Statistics of Macedonia's Population
Although the Macedonians are referred as "Macedonian Slavs", the main point of the statistics is the fact that they are recognized as distinct nation with cultural and historical right over their country Macedonia in which they are overwhelming majority. The reluctance to refer to them for what they are (simply as Macedonians), is explained by the overemphasizing of the contemporary Greek vs. Slavic (Serb and Bulgarian) rivalry over Macedonia in which the westerners desired to make the note that the Macedonians were more "Slavs" then "Greeks" - thus resulting in the use of the term "Macedonian Slavs" to distinguish them from all but still indicate their closer relation to their northern then southern neighbors, as interestingly was the case with the ancient Macedonians and their closer relations with the Thracians and Illyrians then with the ancient Greeks.
Yet the term "Macedonian Slavs" is erroneous since the Macedonians, although conscious of their ancient Macedonian roots and Slav admixture, did not specifically call themselves "Macedonians Slavs", but Macedonians as the documents over the last 2,500 years show. The same "Macedonian Slavs" mistake was again repeated by some western media, as the Albanian terrorists attacked Macedonia in March of 2001, and again it was done deliberately. This deliberate bias is again there, unfortunately because of the political situation and the western media's inclination towards the goals of the Albanian terrorism for "Greater Albania". As at the beginning of the 20th century, the Macedonians showed their outrage at the beginning of the 21st century of this racial insult and publicly instead that their nationality be respected. Not only the Macedonians all over the world vigorously accused the western media for racial bias, but also did various western independent and non-government organizations. That referring to the Macedonians as "Macedonian Slavs" was a mistake was publicly acknowledged by BBC which apologized and withdrew its reporter Paul Wood precisely for his bias reporting, and since continued to rightfully refer to the Macedonians for what they have always been - Macedonians.
From the two above tables one can easily notice that the number of Greeks in Macedonia according to the neutral authors also aligns with the numbers given by the Serb and Bulgarian authors. This is a proof that the Greeks before the partition of Macedonia, were indeed a small minority, only 10% from the total population. This fact certainly does not give them the copyright of the name Macedonia. Dr. Ostreich, Gersin, and Roussos, are only a few of the many neutral authors to prove the groundless speculations of the Balkan counties. They proved that Macedonia belongs to a separate nation, which proves that the Bulgarians and the Serbs have than simply substituted the numbers of the Macedonians for theirs. Another Austrian, Karl Hron explained why that is unjustified:
"According to my own studies on the Serb-Bulgarian conflict I came to the conclusion that the Macedonians looking at their history and language are a separate nation, which means they are not Serbs nor Bulgarians, but the descendants of those Slavs who populated the Balkan peninsula long before the Serb and Bulgarian invasions, and who later did not mix with any of those other two nations..." and:
"... the Macedonian language according to its own laws in the development of the voices, and its own grammatical rules, forms one separate language".
There were even Greek and Bulgarian writers to support what Karl Hron has written. One such example is the Bulgarian slavist and ethnographer P. Draganov, who in his studies of 1887-1894 and 1903, proved the existence of the Macedonians and the Macedonian language as a distinct language.
At the time of the emergence of the so-called Macedonian question, and the aspirations of the Macedonian neighbors for occupation of the country, the famous Macedonian Gjorgi Pulevski wrote in 1875:
Pulevski was right back in 1875. He was proud Macedonian of his ancient heritage, conscious, and aware that the Macedonians were a distinct nation, a fact that the documents of the last 25 centuries clearly show.
The usage of Macedonian and Macedonia separate from Greek or Bulgarian and Greece or Bulgaria is more than obvious. Also these sources are objective, old and clear, and do not offer any further interpretation; that is how they prove the existence of the Macedonians as a Nation with this name in this region, separate from the Greeks and Bulgarians in many ways. The fact that old documents call these people Macedonians shows that the Macedonians aren't an artificial creation, but a nation with a homeland and a name-Macedonia and Macedonians.
YOU GREEKS ARE WELCOME ANY TIME YOU WANT YOU GOT 0 RELEVANT INFORMATION.
PLEASE POST MORE ABOUT TITO AND BANOVINA AND MAYBE MORE FAKE STATISTICS.
This is usual Ottoman Statistic that cruise the web, to prove that during the Ottoman time there were no Macedonians.
It is less known that the Ottomans were dividing the Population by their Religious affiliation, not Ethncity. So the Greeks are the Patriarchist affiliated Population, Bulgarians are the Exarchat affiliated Population, Jews are the Hebrew affiliated Population etc.
Look at the Vilaet of Kosova, you will notice that the majority of the non Moslem Populaton are of Bulgarian affiliation. How ever we know that there are no Bulgarians in Kosovo, thus this Bulgarians in the Ottoman statistics are most likely the Serbs affiliated with the Exarchate, cause the Serb church had no access to Kosovo region till 1912.
Another prove that this statistic are not Ethnic based is the fact that there are Moslem and Catolic affiliated Population. I would like someone to explain me what kind of Ethnic Groups are the Moslem or the Catolic one, if this has to be taken for Ethnic-Group statistic?
Important Note: In the Kosovo Vilayet were included not only modern Kosvo, but Rashka, the old Serbia and Pech - the modern Sit of the Serb Church.
In the words of Essyn Levent Emurla:
............ the legacy of the Ottoman millet system which divided the empire's population according to religious affiliation, leading to a long-lasting correlation between religion and identity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Vilayet
There is no Serbs in Kosovo? Are you stupid or what?
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/OttomanMacedonia/statistics.html[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Statistics of the Population of Macedonia before its Partition and the "Macedonian Question"[/FONT]
In 1827, the European powers intervened on behalf of the Greek rebels and forced the Turks to grant them independence. The same powers, established the first modern Greek state, chose Prince Otto of Bavaria to be the "King of the Hellenes", and sent him to Athens. Serbia freed herself also from the Turkish rule, while Russia declared war on Turkey to help Bulgaria gain its independence. The war between Russia and Turkey ended on March 3, 1878, with the peace settlement of San Stefano. The Turks had to agree to the formation of the new Bulgarian state, to also include all of Macedonia but the city of Salonika. Russia was hoping that greater Bulgaria with Macedonia would give her the strategic exit on the Aegean Sea, but she encountered fierce resistance from Austria-Hungary and England that saw their interests on the Balkans endangered. On July 13, 1878 with the Berlin Conference, they forced Russia to give up her dream and the San Stefano agreement was revised. Macedonia was returned to the Ottoman Empire. From this moment, Macedonia became a battleground where the interests not only of the Balkan states, but also of the Great Powers, collide.
The Ohrid Archbishopric was founded as a separate church in 995 to care for the religious needs of the Orthodox Macedonians. However, under the influence of the Greek Orthodox church, the Turkish sultan abolished the Macedonian church in 1767. The Greek Orthodox church was now able to enforce its religious teachings in Greek as the only Orthodox church to exist in the Balkans. Greece hoped to spread her influence and propaganda through the newly opened Greek schools, with a goal to Hellenize the population of Macedonia. But as their influence grew bigger, so did the resistance of the Macedonians. On March 7, 1851, the residents of Enidje-Vardar (today in Greece) signed a petition, for replacement of the teachings in Greek with Macedonian. In 1859, in Kukush was formed the resistance movement against the Hellenization that quickly spread to Voden, Kostur, Lerin, and the rest of southern Macedonia. Adding to the Greek influence, the Bulgarians now opened their schools in Macedonia in 1871, and the Serbs followed shortly after. This is the beginning of the so-called "Macedonian Question".
Statistics without "Macedonians"
There are three statistical tables that the Greeks and the Bulgarians point to show that the Macedonians do not exist as nation, and that Macedonia belongs to ether one of them.
1) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1904, in areas of Macedonia lived:
Macedonia's Districts
Greeks
Bulgarians
Vilaet of Thessalonica
373,227
207,317
Vilaet of Monastir
261,283
178,412
Santzak of Skopje
13,452
172,735
2) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1906, in Macedonia lived:
Muslims
423,000
Greeks
259,000
Bulgarians
178,000
Serbs
13,150
Others (Jews)
73,000
However, the 2 Turkish censuses above cannot be taken into consideration because the Turks registered the inhabitants based upon their religious background, not ethnic. In Macedonia at that moment the Macedonian Orthodox Church was forbidden (upon the insistence of the Greeks in 1767), and the Macedonians had choice to enter either Islam or the only Christian Orthodox Churches the Turks legitimized - and those were the Greek, Bulgarian, or Serbian, because Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia were already independent countries. The Islam was not an option for the first Christians of Europe, and the Macedonians had no other choice but to have religious services in Bulgarian, Greek, or Serbian Church. As result, as it can be seen above, the Turkish census registered Muslims, Jews, and the Christian Macedoniansweredivided depending on which church they belonged - mostly Bulgarian and Greek as it shows.
3) Another table is the one published by the League of the Nations. According to the League of the Nations in 1926, in Aegean Macedonia occupied by Greece in 1913 lived:
Turks
2,000
Greeks
1,341,000
Bulgarisants
77,000
Others (Jews)
91,000
But this map was submitted to the League of the Nations by the Greek government and it is clear that it is biased. The League of the Nations had not visited Aegean Macedonia and did not participate at all in conducting these statistics. Greece here refers to the Macedonians as "bulgarisants", which means "those who pretend to be Bulgarians" and obviously non-Bulgarians. However, Greece uses many other names in falsifying the identity of the Macedonians. Slavophones, Slav Macedonians, Makedoslavs, Slav Greeks, and Bulgarisants, are only some of the names that prove Greece's unpreparess in this mean falsification of the Macedonian people and language.
Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian Statistics of Macedonia's Population
The new independent Balkan states used their Churches and schools to propagate how the Macedonians do not exist, and how Macedonia was populated only by Greeks, Bulgarians, and Serbs. Ethnographers, historians, and writers begun writing books in favor of this or that propaganda. Many of them did not even visit Macedonia, while those who did already had a written scenario. Their presence there was only a simple formality. Table 1 gives an excellent proof of those Balkan speculations and bias surrounding Macedonia:
balkan views
Greek
Nikolaides
1899
Bulgarian
Kenchov
1900
Serbian
Gopchevich
1886
1899
Bulgarian
Kenchov
1900
Serbian
Gopchevich
1886
Macedonian Slavs
454,000
-
-
-
Serbs
-
400
1,540,000
1,540,000
Bulgarians
-
1,037,000
-
-
Greeks
656,300
214,000
201,000
201,000
Turks and others
576,600
610,365
397,020
397,020
Table 1. Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian Statistics of Macedonia's population
It is more than obvious that all the views coming from the Macedonia's neighbors which sharply contradict eachother, are biased. They all claim their people in Macedonia to justify their well-planned aspirations. It is important to note that both the Bulgarian and Serbian views agree that the Greeks in Macedonia represent only a small minority of 10%. The Greek ethnographer Nikolaides, on the other hand, claims three times bigger number than his colleagues in Belgrade and Sofia. However, the most important about Nikolaides is that he recognizes the Macedonian Slavs as a separate nation, separate from the Bulgarians and the Serbs, to be part of population of Macedonia. And although he tries hard to lower the numbers of those Macedonian Slavs, he still comes up with a convincing proof of their existence.
Independent and Neutral European Statistics of Macedonia's Population
This is the time when many European slavists, ethnographers, and historians, are also attracted to visit Macedonia and conduct their own investigations. Therefore, to find the unbiased population numbers in Macedonia, we have to rely on neutral and independent statistics:
neutral views
German
Dr. K. Ostreich
1905
Austrian
K. Gersin
1903
English
Andrew Rousos
1905
Austrian
K. Gersin
1903
English
Andrew Rousos
Macedonian Slavs
1,500,000
1,182,036
1,150,000
1,150,000
Serbs
-
-
-
-
Bulgarians
-
-
-
-
Greeks
200,000
228,702
300,000
300,000
Turks and others
550,000
627,915
400,000
400,000
Table 2. Independent and Neutral European Statistics of Macedonia's Population
Although the Macedonians are referred as "Macedonian Slavs", the main point of the statistics is the fact that they are recognized as distinct nation with cultural and historical right over their country Macedonia in which they are overwhelming majority. The reluctance to refer to them for what they are (simply as Macedonians), is explained by the overemphasizing of the contemporary Greek vs. Slavic (Serb and Bulgarian) rivalry over Macedonia in which the westerners desired to make the note that the Macedonians were more "Slavs" then "Greeks" - thus resulting in the use of the term "Macedonian Slavs" to distinguish them from all but still indicate their closer relation to their northern then southern neighbors, as interestingly was the case with the ancient Macedonians and their closer relations with the Thracians and Illyrians then with the ancient Greeks.
Yet the term "Macedonian Slavs" is erroneous since the Macedonians, although conscious of their ancient Macedonian roots and Slav admixture, did not specifically call themselves "Macedonians Slavs", but Macedonians as the documents over the last 2,500 years show. The same "Macedonian Slavs" mistake was again repeated by some western media, as the Albanian terrorists attacked Macedonia in March of 2001, and again it was done deliberately. This deliberate bias is again there, unfortunately because of the political situation and the western media's inclination towards the goals of the Albanian terrorism for "Greater Albania". As at the beginning of the 20th century, the Macedonians showed their outrage at the beginning of the 21st century of this racial insult and publicly instead that their nationality be respected. Not only the Macedonians all over the world vigorously accused the western media for racial bias, but also did various western independent and non-government organizations. That referring to the Macedonians as "Macedonian Slavs" was a mistake was publicly acknowledged by BBC which apologized and withdrew its reporter Paul Wood precisely for his bias reporting, and since continued to rightfully refer to the Macedonians for what they have always been - Macedonians.
From the two above tables one can easily notice that the number of Greeks in Macedonia according to the neutral authors also aligns with the numbers given by the Serb and Bulgarian authors. This is a proof that the Greeks before the partition of Macedonia, were indeed a small minority, only 10% from the total population. This fact certainly does not give them the copyright of the name Macedonia. Dr. Ostreich, Gersin, and Roussos, are only a few of the many neutral authors to prove the groundless speculations of the Balkan counties. They proved that Macedonia belongs to a separate nation, which proves that the Bulgarians and the Serbs have than simply substituted the numbers of the Macedonians for theirs. Another Austrian, Karl Hron explained why that is unjustified:
"According to my own studies on the Serb-Bulgarian conflict I came to the conclusion that the Macedonians looking at their history and language are a separate nation, which means they are not Serbs nor Bulgarians, but the descendants of those Slavs who populated the Balkan peninsula long before the Serb and Bulgarian invasions, and who later did not mix with any of those other two nations..." and:
"... the Macedonian language according to its own laws in the development of the voices, and its own grammatical rules, forms one separate language".
There were even Greek and Bulgarian writers to support what Karl Hron has written. One such example is the Bulgarian slavist and ethnographer P. Draganov, who in his studies of 1887-1894 and 1903, proved the existence of the Macedonians and the Macedonian language as a distinct language.
At the time of the emergence of the so-called Macedonian question, and the aspirations of the Macedonian neighbors for occupation of the country, the famous Macedonian Gjorgi Pulevski wrote in 1875:
"People who originate from one and the same race, speak the same language, live together in harmony, and have the same customs, songs and mentality, constitute a nation, and the place where they live is their homeland. In this way, the Macedonians are a nation and their homeland is Macedonia" and,
"I am not Bulgarian, nor Greek, nor Tzintzar, I am pure Macedonian as were Philip and Alexander the Macedonian and Aristotle Philosopher"
Pulevski was right back in 1875. He was proud Macedonian of his ancient heritage, conscious, and aware that the Macedonians were a distinct nation, a fact that the documents of the last 25 centuries clearly show.
The usage of Macedonian and Macedonia separate from Greek or Bulgarian and Greece or Bulgaria is more than obvious. Also these sources are objective, old and clear, and do not offer any further interpretation; that is how they prove the existence of the Macedonians as a Nation with this name in this region, separate from the Greeks and Bulgarians in many ways. The fact that old documents call these people Macedonians shows that the Macedonians aren't an artificial creation, but a nation with a homeland and a name-Macedonia and Macedonians.
YOU GREEKS ARE WELCOME ANY TIME YOU WANT YOU GOT 0 RELEVANT INFORMATION.
PLEASE POST MORE ABOUT TITO AND BANOVINA AND MAYBE MORE FAKE STATISTICS.
Last edited:
DejaVu
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The Origin of the Slavs by Joseph Skulj October 13, 2004
The following two, articles, courtesy of Joseph Skulj, contain very important information on the origin of the Slavs.
"Slavs have been known by many names during the historical period. However, genetically they are descendents of populations that sought refuge in the Balkans and Ukraine during the Last Glacial Maximum approx. 20,000 years ago.
In the attachments (marked ITEM 2) is an article which will appear in the Sept/Oct issue
of 'The Voice of Canadian Slovenians/GLASILO kanadskih slovencev', which shows a genetic continuity between Veneti and the people in the Balkans.
Also included in the attachments (marked ITEM 1) is a letter to Prof.
Curta who is of the opinion, that Slavs are a 6th century invention."
2004-10-13
Joseph Skulj P. Eng.
11 Westacres Dr.
Toronto ON, Canada M6M2B7
[email protected]
Prof. Florin Curta Department of History University of Florida
Re: The Making of the Slavs
Dear Prof. Curta:
The Making of the Slavs-Will this book with its eye-catching title tell us about the origin of the ~40 % of the population of Europe who are occupying more than half
of its land mass?
Will it reveal to us how, when and where they originated?
Will we find out why they speak so many sister languages and are known by so many names? What were the mechanisms that caused this spread; how much can be attributed to elite dominance and how much to other factors?
The origin of the Slavs is relatively unclear, but the title of your book suggests
that you have found the answer.
Recently I ordered your book The Making of the Slavs, through U. of T. bookstore, (since they did not have it in stock), hoping that the information you compiled would give me a historian's insight into the linguistic and genetic origin of the Slavs and why they now represent ~40% of the population of Europe and occupy more than half of the continent.
I was also hoping to learn, why even in the 2nd cent. A.D., one third of all the Roman military bases were located in the northern Balkans.
Now, on reading The Making of the Slavs, I find that I have been misled by the title of the book.
While the book does provide valuable detailed historical information, specially, from the Arabic and Greek sources regarding the Slavs during the historical period, when they fought against the Roman Empire, the super-power of that time both on land and sea, it does not adequately address their genetic and linguistic origins.
You mention the building and renewing of the Roman forts in the Balkans-"eight times more than in the entire Asian part of the Empire".
This is reminiscent of the 20th cent. Cold War armaments between the 2 super powers of the day.
Since the Roman Empire did not spring into existence overnight, it is reasonable to assume, in the light of historical data you provide, that Slavs have a pre-historical origin.
Based on archaeological evidence,scholars such as Alinei and Renfrew posit that there is a considerable continuity in Europe, from the time of the first farmers and that there is no reason to think in terms of large-scale movements of people in association of the spread of metallurgical practices.
There is also genetic and linguistic evidence that indicates a pre-historic origin of the Slavs.
Genetic studies indicate that populations of Europe, including the Slavs, were present for millennia before the 6th cent. A.D., in the regions that they now occupy.
For instance, Richards M. and 36 others (2000), in their studies of the
maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), conclude that (i) the majority of extant mtDNA lineages entered Europe in several waves during the Upper Paleolithic, (ii) there was a founder effect or bottleneck associated with the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) 20,000 years ago, from which derives the largest fraction of surviving lineages, (iii) the immigrant Neolithic component is likely to comprise less than one-quarter of the mtDNA pool of modern Europeans.
They also estimate that from the Bronze Age to the recent time, the migration events brought the following percentages of mtDNA lineages to various regions of Europe:
Alps-6.9%, Southeastern Europe-8.2%, Northeastern Europe-5.5%.
And (iv) there has been a substantial back-migration into the Near East.
Eastern Europe appears to have been the main source of the back-migration, also the Philistine migration, and the slave trade.
In addition, there were also the desertions from the Byzantine army that you point out in your book.
Vernesi C. and 12 others (2004) in their recent study of the mtDNA lineages of
the ~2,500 year old skeletal remains of the Etruscans and the Veneti, provide the mitochondrial sequences present in these skeletal remains.
Thus they make it possible to compare, genetically, the present day populations with the Etruscan and Veneti upper classes, since those tombs typically belonged to social elites.
Malyarchuk B.A. and 5 others (2003) with their mtDNA study of Bosnians and Slovenians make it possible to compare genetically these extant populations with the ancient populations of Etruria and Venetia. Surprisingly, 4 out of 5 (80%) of the mtDNA lineages found in the skeletal remains from Adria, which was in the Roman province of Venetia et Histria, are also found in the present day Bosnians and Slovenians.
This, along with other studies, is an indication that there has been a genetic continuity for at least 2,500 years, between the people of the Balkans and the peoples of the northeastern Italy.
The research into the paternally inherited Y-chromosomes of the various populations gives the researchers another insight into pre-historical events. In a recent study of the Y-chromosome haplogroup I (Hg I), Rootsi S. and 45 others
(2004), find it in Macedonians (northern Greece) at 30 %, Slovenians at 38 %, Croats at 38 %, Bosnians at 42 %, Poles at 18 %, Ukrainians at 22 % and
Russian (Cossacks ) at 23 %.
They conclude that the Hg I subhaplogroup I1b2* in the extant populations, arose in Europe before Last Glacial Maximum (LGM).
It is at the highest concentration in the northwestern Balkans at ~40%, but it extends from just west of the Italian Apennines to Eastern Europe, and it probably diffused after the LGM from a homeland in Eastern Europe or the Balkans.
The high diversity of these lineages in Bosnia supports the view that they may have been present in the Balkans before the LGM. Semino O. and 16 others (2000), propose that this lineage originated in Europe in descendents of men that arrived from the Middle East 20,000 to 25,000 years ago.
Malyarchuk B.A. and 5 others (2003) note that another Y-chromosome genetic marker Hg R1a is also present in Slavic speaking populations at a high frequency
30%-50% (Poles, Russians, Belorussians, Ukrainians, Czechs, Slovaks). Rosser
ZH., and 62 others (2000) quantify this frequency: in Poles at 54 %, Russians-47
%, Belorussians-39 %, Ukrainians-30 %, Czechs-38 % and Slovaks-47 %. It is also present at a relatively high frequency in the Slavic speaking populations in the Balkans: Croats-29%, Slovenians-37%, Macedonians-35%. The Bulgarians are an exception at only 12%. Semino et al. interpret the distribution of this haplotype as a signature of expansion from isolated nucleus in the present Ukraine, following LGM.
The lineage appears to have been present in Europe since the Paleolithic times.
Belyaeva O. and 7 others (2003), based on mtDNA studies, propose a central
European origin of the Eastern Slavs.
Based on the genetic data available, there is evidence that Slavs developed primarily from two populations who sought refuge during the LGM, one in the Balkans and the other in the Ukraine, and who expanded subsequently from their climatic sanctuaries. The Apennine Mountains appear to be the westerly limit and the Indian sub-continent the easterly limit of this expansion.
Qamar R. and 8 others (2003) note that four out of five frequent haplogroups in Pakistan, which together make up 79% of the total population are also frequent in western Asia and in Europe, but not in China or Japan.
The frequency rises to 86% in the Pathan and Sindhi populations who are Indo-European speakers and where the dominant haplogroup is Ra1 at 47%, which is similar in frequency to Slovak and Russian populations.
Bamshad M., and 17 others (2001), in "Genetic Evidence on the Origins of Indian Caste Populations" conclude that for paternally inherited Y-chromosome variation each caste is more similar to Europeans than to Asians and the affinity to Europeans is proportionate to caste rank, the upper castes being more similar to Europeans, particularly East Europeans. Generally, haplogroup Ra1 is the most frequent amongst the speakers of Slavic languages and their cousin languages,
the Indic languages. The Slovenian language in the most westerly Slavic country has ~80% of its vocabulary similar to its sister Russian language in sound and meaning. In addition, Slovenian has lexical and grammatical similarities to the cousin Indic languages in particular to the Vedic Sanskrit, where ~20% of the lexicon is similar in sound and meaning.
This grammatical similarity between Sanskrit and Slovenian is well illustrated by the conjugation of the verb: "to be"
PIC 1
It is anomalous that the present day Slovenian retains so many similarities with
the Sanskrit, in particular with the Vedic Sanskrit, despite the wide separation due to time and geography. It should be noted that Slovenian retains many
lexical and grammatical similarities with Sanskrit no longer present in Indian and some Slavic languages as can be seen from the example above.
It is rather unfortunate, that the book does not address more thoroughly the
origins of the Slavs in the light of the historical information about them in Europe that you amassed and also in light of the linguistic and genetic similarities with
the people of the Indus valley, particularly the linguistic similarity with the Vedic
Sanskrit and the more recent genetic studies of the Etruscan and Venetic
skeletal remains in the west and also the 2500 year old Scytho-Siberian skeletal remains in the east.
Perhaps, you are planning a sequel to the book, where you will address the pre-historical origin of the Slavs, not just one name and will incorporate the results of the latest archaeological, genetic and linguistic studies into your hypotheses, using a multi disciplinary approach.
Hopefully, you will use the historical records as a guide into pre-history to interpret the results of the current archaeological, genetic and linguistic studies.
Yours truly,
Joseph Skulj P. Eng.
ITEM 2
ETRUSCANS, VENETI and SLOVENIANS:
A Genetic Perspective
(J. Skulj P.Eng. The Hindu Institute of Learning, Toronto, Canada. 2004-10-5) POVZETEK
Genetske primejave Etrušcanov in današnjih Slovencev ka?ejo na znatne sorodnosti. Ertušcanski primerki so vzeti od okostnjakov--njihovih veljakov--iz grobnic, nastalih med 1. in 7. st. pr. Kr..
V te primerjave je vkljucenih 5 okostnjakov iz mesta Adria, ki je v pokrajini Veneto-v rimski dobi pa je bila Adria v provinci Venetia et Histria.
Genetsko najbli?ji Slovencem so prav ti ~2,400 let stari okostnjaki iz Adria; kar 4 od 5 (80%) ima genetske vrste ki se sedaj najdejo na Balkanu.
Sedaj ~20% Slovencev nosi genetske vrste ki so prisotne pri ~2,400 let starih okostnjakih iz Adria. Tako se genetski podatki skladajo s teorijo kontinuitete na ozemlju Slovenije-in podpirajo Venetsko teorijo, ki zagovarja sorodnost Slovencev in Venetov.
INTRODUCTION
Analysis of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) of modern populations has become a useful tool for human population studies and for reconstructing aspects of evolutionary history. The maternal mode of inheritance of the mtDNA, allows it to
be used for inferring the pattern of prehistoric female migrations and peopling of different regions of the world. It is now technically possible to validate these analyses by directly studying the DNA of ancient people (Malyarchuk 2003, Vernesi 2004).
Vernesi et al. obtained fragments of well preserved skeletons from Etruscan necropolises, covering much of the Etruria in terms of both chronology (7th to
2nd centuries B.C.) and geography. The tombs typically belong to the social
elites, so the individuals studied may represent a specific social group, the upper classes. The ancient human remains came from the following sites: Adria,
Volterra, Castelfranco di Sotto, Castellucio di Pienza, Magliano and Marsiliana, Tarquinia and also Capua. Two cities, Adria in the Po valley and Capua in Campania, were at the fringes of Etruscan territory.
In Adria the hybridization with the Veneti may have occurred (Vernesi 2004).
Vernesi et al. compared the mtDNA results obtained from the ancient remains to
a number of modern populations. Unfortunately, they did not take into account the genetic studies of Slovenians ( Malyarchuk 2003), who are geographically relatively close to Adria.
The Etruscans are one of the mysterious peoples of the ancient world, who seem
to have appeared for a time on the stage of history, and then seemed to have
disappeared. In fact, from the end of the Roman period to the Middle Ages, they could be said to have ceased to exist, since the sites of their cities, towns,villages and farms had been completely lost.
It was in the19th century that the study of the Etruscan legacy began in earnest.
The heart of Etruria was the territory, in the present day Italy, on the Tyrrhenian Sea between the rivers, Arno on the north and Tiber on the south and extending to Perugia in the east.
The Etruscan influence in the 7th and 6th centuries B.C., went beyond its heartland and extended to, Adria in the Po valley in the north and to Capua in the south.
It is generally accepted, that present day Tuscans are the Etruscans' closest neighbors (Wellard 1973, Vernesi 2004).
The Veneti are also one the historic peoples, subject of many discussions and debates, but who were more widespread than the Etruscans.
They were present in many lands (Mogentale-Profizi 2001): Veneti in Paphlagonia -northern coast of present day Turkey-were mentioned by Homer in 9th cent. BC., Veneti in
Illyricum (Enetoi) on the lower Danube and in the upper Adriatic, were mentioned
by Herodotus in 5th cent. BC:, Veneti in central Europe mentioned by Tacitus and Pliny the Elder, Veneti in Gaul were mentioned by Caesar, and Veneti in Latium who are referred to as Venetulani by Pliny the Elder. The Veneti and
Etruscans appear to be related. However, Adria was in the 10th Roman province
'Venetia et Histria' until the downfall of the empire.
There is historical, linguistic and topographic evidence that present day Slovenians are indigenous to their land and descendents of the Veneti (Šavli 1996).
DISCUSSION of GENETIC STUDIES
In the bone fragments, taken from the tombs of Etruria, Capua and Venetia, Vernesi et al. have found that out of 22 mtDNA HVS1 haplotypes, which they observed in 28 individuals, only two of them, CRS and 16126, occur in a sample of modern Tuscans and carried by ~14% of them.
Tuscans are considered to be the descendants of the Etruscans.
Both haplotypes occur in skeletons from Adria and Magliano/Marsiliana.
The fragments from Magliano/Marsiliana have been dated at 7th-6th centuries B.C., whereas those from Adria are from 5th-4th centuries B.C. (Vernesi 2004).
Comparing the results of Vernesi et al and Malyarchuk et al, it becomes apparent that, the present day Slovenians, carry more than just CRS and 16126 'Etruscan' mtDNA HVS1 haplotypes found in the Tuscans.
Twice as many 'Etruscan' haplotypes have been found in Slovenians than in Tuscans, namely: CRS, 16261, 16223, 16311.
These were found in skeletal remains from Adria, Magliano/Marsiliana and also from Volterra. Two additional haplotypes from Adria, 16126 and 16129, are similar to Slovenian haplotypes, but the Slovenian haplotypes differ from the 'Etruscan' ones of Adria, by an additional substitution;
16069-16126 and 16129-16304. However, haplotype 16129 without the 16069
substitution is found in Bosnia.
This leaves just one haplotype out of five, namely,
16126-16193-16278, where no similar haplotype is found in Slovenia.
However, this 16126-16193-16278 haplotype is similar to that found in skeletal remains from Capua at the southern limit of Etruscan influence where hybridization with Samnium natives or Greek colonizers may have occurred (Malyarchuk 2003, Vernesi 2004).
The root type 16069-16126 HVS1 sequence, present in ~8% of Slovenians, is very diverse and may represent a trace of Neolithic (new Stone Age at the beginning of agriculture) migration from the Middle East (Malyarchuk 2003). Haplotypes CRS, 16223, 16261 and 16311 are carried by ~17% of Slovenians. They belong to haplogroup H, which is estimated to be ~20, 000 years old; this haplogroup is the most common one in Slovenians at 47% (Richards 2000, Malyarchuk 2003).
Adria in Veneto
Focusing on 5 haplotypes, CRS, 16126, 16129, 16223, 16126-16193-16278
found in skeletal remains from Adria, which was part of Venetia et Histria during
the Roman era,.(Adria is even now located in Veneto, Italy), and comparing them
to the present day populations, we find:
--CRS in Slovenians at 13% (Malyarchuk 2003), in Europe at 24% (Richards
1996)
--16126 is found as 16069-16126 in Slo at 8% (M), in Eu 16069-16126 is at 7%
(R)
--16129 is found in Bosnians (Bos) at <2% (M), in Russians at 1% (M1) in
Basques at 9% (R); in Slo it is found as 16129-16148-16223-16391 and 16129-
16223-16391 at 2% (M).
--16223 is found in Slo at 1%, elsewhere in Eu only in South Germans and
Ukrainians (M)
From the above comparison, it can be seen, that there is a genetic continuity between ancient populations as attested from the skeletal remains found in Etruria proper and especially between those found in Venetia and the present day Europeans. While Tuscans share 2 haplotypes with the Etruscans, Slovenians and Bosnians share 3 haplotypes. It should also be noted that 2 additional Etruscan haplotypes from Adria in Veneto, differ from the Slovenian haplotypes by one to three substitutions. Considering the evidence, this shows the relatively strong genetic mtDNA relationship between ancient Veneti and modern day Slovenians.
In addition to the haplotypes in ancient Veneti from Adria, Slovenians also share haplotypes with the skeletal remains of Etruscans from Etruria proper, namely
from Volterra (Vo) and Magliano/Marsiliana (M/M). Furthermore,Russians and
Poles share one lineage with Castelfranco di Sotto (CS) not found in the
Slovenian sample.
--16261 of Vo is found in Slo at 1% (M), in Eu at <1% (R).
--16311 of M/M is found in Slo at 2%, in Bosnians at 7% (M), in Eu at 5% (R)
--16126 of M/M is found in Slo as 16069-16126 lineage at 8% (M) in Eu at 7%
(R).
--CRS of M/M is found in Slo at 13% (M), in Eu at 24% (R).
--16189-16356 of (M/M) is found in Poles at 0.5%, Russians at 0.5% and
Germans at 0.4% (M1)
Here again, no abrupt differences are seen between skeletal remains from
Etruria proper and the present day Slavic populations in the Balkans. Richards et al., in their study of 520 individuals from Europe, where the Slavic populations were not included, did not detect in the 16223 haplotype, which present in skeletal remains from Adria, nor has it been found in a sample of modern Tuscans (Richards 1996, Vernesi 2004), but is has been found in Slovenia, South Germany and Ukraine (Malyarchuk 2003).
The Y chromosome studies revealed that Haplogroup I (Hg I), reached ~40%-
50% in two distinct regions-in Nordic populations in Scandinavia and around the Dinaric Alps. Overall, this suggest, that populations carrying the Hg I could have played a central role in the process of human re-colonization of Europe, after the Ice Age (Rootsi 2004). Semino proposes that Hg I (M170) haplogroup originated
in Europe in descendants of men that arrived from Middle East 20,000 to 25,000
years ago.
This can be associated with an Epi-Gravettian culture in the area of the present-day Austria, the Czech Republic and the northern Balkans (Semino 2000).
Subhaplogroup HgI1b* is the most frequent clade in eastern Europe and the Balkans; its subclade Hg I1b2 is found in Sardinia, Castille and in Basques
(6%). Rootsi et al., mention and also show graphically, that Hg I1b* and Hg I1b2
co-occur west of the Italian Apennines. In the Veneto region of Italy, Hg I1b*
occurs at a frequency of~10% and I1b2 is absent; only Hg I1b* is present west of the Appenines; east of the Adriatic Hg I1b* reaches its highest concentration in
the north western Balkans (Rootsi 2004). This is also an indication that there is a genetic continuity, based on paternally inherited Y chromosomes, between the Slovenians and the people of Veneto region, including Adria..
Barbujani in his paper ''Genetics and the population history of Europe'', shows graphically a genetic continuity between the populations of the north western Balkans and the peoples now occupying the land of the ancient Veneti and Etruscans in Italy. A clear demarcation is seen in northern Italy at the western boundary of the Veneto region (Barbujani 2001). In another genetic study of the present day populations, it has been found, that the population in eastern
Veneto, is more akin to Tuscanian, than to western Veneto population
(Mogentale-Profizi 2001).
Furthermore, Malyarchuk et al., have also noted, that Slovenians have a high frequency, at 5%, of H-subcluster 16162, which is characteristic for central and eastern European populations. In the western neighbors of Slovenians, in the Veneto speakers of Italy, this is also present, at 6% (Malyarchuk 2003).
What language did the Etruscans and/or Veneti speak? Barbujani has made an intriguing observation, that partial correlations with language are stronger for the
Y chromosome than for mtDNA (Barbujani 1997). Conventional opinion has it, that Etruscans spoke a language isolate, a non-Indo-European language and that it disappeared ~90 B.C., when they lost their autonomy to the Romans
(Vernesi 2004). Some Slovenian scholars held/hold a different view. Bor had postulated that Etruscans were people originally linguistically related to the
Veneti; (the genetic evidence supports his hypothesis); they came from the north and in course of time merged with another people, which in turn influenced their language. By using Slavic languages, as a point of reference, he was able to decipher some of the older Etruscan inscriptions, including the Pyrgian Tablets,
but not their later inscriptions. On the other hand, he was quite successful in deciphering the Venetic inscriptions (Šavli 1996).
CONCLUSION
There is a genetic continuity between the ancient Etruscans and Veneti and the present day Slovenians.
Genetic information makes it evident, that Slovenians are indigenous to their land
as indicated by the mtDNA relationship with the ~2,500 year old skeletal remains
of the Etruscans, particularly those from Adria in Veneto.
Genetic information supports the historic quotation from the biography of St. Columban written in 615 A.D. and cited by Toma?ic "Termini Venetiorum qui et Sclavi dicuntur"-the land of the Veneti who are also called Slavs (Šavli 1996).
REFERENCES
Barbujani G (1997) DNA Variation and Language Affinities. Am J Hum Genet
61:1011-1014.
Barbujani G, Bertolle G (2001) Genetics and the population history of Europe. PNAS vol. 98 no.1:22-25.
(M) Malyarchuk BA, Grzybowski T, Derenko MV, Czarny J, Drobnic K, Miscicka- Sliwka D (2003) Mitochondrial DNA Variability in Bosnians and Slovenians. Ann Hum Genet 67: 412- 425.
(M1) Malyarchuk BA, Grzybowski T, Derenko MV, Czarny J, Wozniak M, Misicka-Sliwka D (2002) Mitochondrial DNA in Poles and Russians. Ann Hum Genet 66:261-283.
Mogentale-Profizi N, Chollet L, Stevanovitch A, Dubut V, Poggi C, Pradie MP, Spadoni JL, Gilles A, Beraud-Colomb E (2001) Mitachondrial DNA sequence diversity in two groups of Italian Veneto speakers from Veneto. Ann Hum Genet
65: 153-166.
Richards M, Macaulay V, Hickey E and 34 others (2000) Tracing European
Founder Lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA Pool. Am J Hum Genet 67:1251-
1267.
Richards M, Corte-Real H, Forster P and 7 others (1996) Paleolithic and
Neolithic Lineages in the European Mitochondrial Gene Pool. Am J Hum Genet
59:185-203.
Rootsi S, Magri C, Kivisild T and 42 others (2004) Phylogeography of Y- Chromosome Haplogroup I Reveals Distinct Domains of Prehistoric Gene Flow in Europe. Am J Hum Genet 75:128-137.
Šavli J, Bor M, Toma?ic I, trans. Škerbinc A (1996) VENETI: First Builders of European Community. Wien, Boswell: Editiones Veneti ISBN 0-9681236-0-0. pp.80, 197- 199, 344, 443, 501.
Semino O, Passarino G, Oefner PJ and 14 others (2000) The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A Y Chromosome Perspective. Science vol.290 10 November.
Vernesi C, Caramelli D, Dupanloup I, Bertorelle G, Lari M, Capellini D, Moggi- Cecci J, Chiarelli B, Castri L, Casoli A, Mallegni F, Lalueza-Fox C, Barbujani G
(2004) The Etruscans: A Population-Genetic Study. Am J Hum Genet 74: 694-
704.
Wellard J (!973) The Search for the Etruscans. London: Sphere Books Ltd. ISBN
0 351 18677 8. pp.11,113.
The following two, articles, courtesy of Joseph Skulj, contain very important information on the origin of the Slavs.
"Slavs have been known by many names during the historical period. However, genetically they are descendents of populations that sought refuge in the Balkans and Ukraine during the Last Glacial Maximum approx. 20,000 years ago.
In the attachments (marked ITEM 2) is an article which will appear in the Sept/Oct issue
of 'The Voice of Canadian Slovenians/GLASILO kanadskih slovencev', which shows a genetic continuity between Veneti and the people in the Balkans.
Also included in the attachments (marked ITEM 1) is a letter to Prof.
Curta who is of the opinion, that Slavs are a 6th century invention."
2004-10-13
Joseph Skulj P. Eng.
11 Westacres Dr.
Toronto ON, Canada M6M2B7
[email protected]
Prof. Florin Curta Department of History University of Florida
Re: The Making of the Slavs
Dear Prof. Curta:
The Making of the Slavs-Will this book with its eye-catching title tell us about the origin of the ~40 % of the population of Europe who are occupying more than half
of its land mass?
Will it reveal to us how, when and where they originated?
Will we find out why they speak so many sister languages and are known by so many names? What were the mechanisms that caused this spread; how much can be attributed to elite dominance and how much to other factors?
The origin of the Slavs is relatively unclear, but the title of your book suggests
that you have found the answer.
Recently I ordered your book The Making of the Slavs, through U. of T. bookstore, (since they did not have it in stock), hoping that the information you compiled would give me a historian's insight into the linguistic and genetic origin of the Slavs and why they now represent ~40% of the population of Europe and occupy more than half of the continent.
I was also hoping to learn, why even in the 2nd cent. A.D., one third of all the Roman military bases were located in the northern Balkans.
Now, on reading The Making of the Slavs, I find that I have been misled by the title of the book.
While the book does provide valuable detailed historical information, specially, from the Arabic and Greek sources regarding the Slavs during the historical period, when they fought against the Roman Empire, the super-power of that time both on land and sea, it does not adequately address their genetic and linguistic origins.
You mention the building and renewing of the Roman forts in the Balkans-"eight times more than in the entire Asian part of the Empire".
This is reminiscent of the 20th cent. Cold War armaments between the 2 super powers of the day.
Since the Roman Empire did not spring into existence overnight, it is reasonable to assume, in the light of historical data you provide, that Slavs have a pre-historical origin.
Based on archaeological evidence,scholars such as Alinei and Renfrew posit that there is a considerable continuity in Europe, from the time of the first farmers and that there is no reason to think in terms of large-scale movements of people in association of the spread of metallurgical practices.
There is also genetic and linguistic evidence that indicates a pre-historic origin of the Slavs.
Genetic studies indicate that populations of Europe, including the Slavs, were present for millennia before the 6th cent. A.D., in the regions that they now occupy.
For instance, Richards M. and 36 others (2000), in their studies of the
maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), conclude that (i) the majority of extant mtDNA lineages entered Europe in several waves during the Upper Paleolithic, (ii) there was a founder effect or bottleneck associated with the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) 20,000 years ago, from which derives the largest fraction of surviving lineages, (iii) the immigrant Neolithic component is likely to comprise less than one-quarter of the mtDNA pool of modern Europeans.
They also estimate that from the Bronze Age to the recent time, the migration events brought the following percentages of mtDNA lineages to various regions of Europe:
Alps-6.9%, Southeastern Europe-8.2%, Northeastern Europe-5.5%.
And (iv) there has been a substantial back-migration into the Near East.
Eastern Europe appears to have been the main source of the back-migration, also the Philistine migration, and the slave trade.
In addition, there were also the desertions from the Byzantine army that you point out in your book.
Vernesi C. and 12 others (2004) in their recent study of the mtDNA lineages of
the ~2,500 year old skeletal remains of the Etruscans and the Veneti, provide the mitochondrial sequences present in these skeletal remains.
Thus they make it possible to compare, genetically, the present day populations with the Etruscan and Veneti upper classes, since those tombs typically belonged to social elites.
Malyarchuk B.A. and 5 others (2003) with their mtDNA study of Bosnians and Slovenians make it possible to compare genetically these extant populations with the ancient populations of Etruria and Venetia. Surprisingly, 4 out of 5 (80%) of the mtDNA lineages found in the skeletal remains from Adria, which was in the Roman province of Venetia et Histria, are also found in the present day Bosnians and Slovenians.
This, along with other studies, is an indication that there has been a genetic continuity for at least 2,500 years, between the people of the Balkans and the peoples of the northeastern Italy.
The research into the paternally inherited Y-chromosomes of the various populations gives the researchers another insight into pre-historical events. In a recent study of the Y-chromosome haplogroup I (Hg I), Rootsi S. and 45 others
(2004), find it in Macedonians (northern Greece) at 30 %, Slovenians at 38 %, Croats at 38 %, Bosnians at 42 %, Poles at 18 %, Ukrainians at 22 % and
Russian (Cossacks ) at 23 %.
They conclude that the Hg I subhaplogroup I1b2* in the extant populations, arose in Europe before Last Glacial Maximum (LGM).
It is at the highest concentration in the northwestern Balkans at ~40%, but it extends from just west of the Italian Apennines to Eastern Europe, and it probably diffused after the LGM from a homeland in Eastern Europe or the Balkans.
The high diversity of these lineages in Bosnia supports the view that they may have been present in the Balkans before the LGM. Semino O. and 16 others (2000), propose that this lineage originated in Europe in descendents of men that arrived from the Middle East 20,000 to 25,000 years ago.
Malyarchuk B.A. and 5 others (2003) note that another Y-chromosome genetic marker Hg R1a is also present in Slavic speaking populations at a high frequency
30%-50% (Poles, Russians, Belorussians, Ukrainians, Czechs, Slovaks). Rosser
ZH., and 62 others (2000) quantify this frequency: in Poles at 54 %, Russians-47
%, Belorussians-39 %, Ukrainians-30 %, Czechs-38 % and Slovaks-47 %. It is also present at a relatively high frequency in the Slavic speaking populations in the Balkans: Croats-29%, Slovenians-37%, Macedonians-35%. The Bulgarians are an exception at only 12%. Semino et al. interpret the distribution of this haplotype as a signature of expansion from isolated nucleus in the present Ukraine, following LGM.
The lineage appears to have been present in Europe since the Paleolithic times.
Belyaeva O. and 7 others (2003), based on mtDNA studies, propose a central
European origin of the Eastern Slavs.
Based on the genetic data available, there is evidence that Slavs developed primarily from two populations who sought refuge during the LGM, one in the Balkans and the other in the Ukraine, and who expanded subsequently from their climatic sanctuaries. The Apennine Mountains appear to be the westerly limit and the Indian sub-continent the easterly limit of this expansion.
Qamar R. and 8 others (2003) note that four out of five frequent haplogroups in Pakistan, which together make up 79% of the total population are also frequent in western Asia and in Europe, but not in China or Japan.
The frequency rises to 86% in the Pathan and Sindhi populations who are Indo-European speakers and where the dominant haplogroup is Ra1 at 47%, which is similar in frequency to Slovak and Russian populations.
Bamshad M., and 17 others (2001), in "Genetic Evidence on the Origins of Indian Caste Populations" conclude that for paternally inherited Y-chromosome variation each caste is more similar to Europeans than to Asians and the affinity to Europeans is proportionate to caste rank, the upper castes being more similar to Europeans, particularly East Europeans. Generally, haplogroup Ra1 is the most frequent amongst the speakers of Slavic languages and their cousin languages,
the Indic languages. The Slovenian language in the most westerly Slavic country has ~80% of its vocabulary similar to its sister Russian language in sound and meaning. In addition, Slovenian has lexical and grammatical similarities to the cousin Indic languages in particular to the Vedic Sanskrit, where ~20% of the lexicon is similar in sound and meaning.
This grammatical similarity between Sanskrit and Slovenian is well illustrated by the conjugation of the verb: "to be"
PIC 1
It is anomalous that the present day Slovenian retains so many similarities with
the Sanskrit, in particular with the Vedic Sanskrit, despite the wide separation due to time and geography. It should be noted that Slovenian retains many
lexical and grammatical similarities with Sanskrit no longer present in Indian and some Slavic languages as can be seen from the example above.
It is rather unfortunate, that the book does not address more thoroughly the
origins of the Slavs in the light of the historical information about them in Europe that you amassed and also in light of the linguistic and genetic similarities with
the people of the Indus valley, particularly the linguistic similarity with the Vedic
Sanskrit and the more recent genetic studies of the Etruscan and Venetic
skeletal remains in the west and also the 2500 year old Scytho-Siberian skeletal remains in the east.
Perhaps, you are planning a sequel to the book, where you will address the pre-historical origin of the Slavs, not just one name and will incorporate the results of the latest archaeological, genetic and linguistic studies into your hypotheses, using a multi disciplinary approach.
Hopefully, you will use the historical records as a guide into pre-history to interpret the results of the current archaeological, genetic and linguistic studies.
Yours truly,
Joseph Skulj P. Eng.
ITEM 2
ETRUSCANS, VENETI and SLOVENIANS:
A Genetic Perspective
(J. Skulj P.Eng. The Hindu Institute of Learning, Toronto, Canada. 2004-10-5) POVZETEK
Genetske primejave Etrušcanov in današnjih Slovencev ka?ejo na znatne sorodnosti. Ertušcanski primerki so vzeti od okostnjakov--njihovih veljakov--iz grobnic, nastalih med 1. in 7. st. pr. Kr..
V te primerjave je vkljucenih 5 okostnjakov iz mesta Adria, ki je v pokrajini Veneto-v rimski dobi pa je bila Adria v provinci Venetia et Histria.
Genetsko najbli?ji Slovencem so prav ti ~2,400 let stari okostnjaki iz Adria; kar 4 od 5 (80%) ima genetske vrste ki se sedaj najdejo na Balkanu.
Sedaj ~20% Slovencev nosi genetske vrste ki so prisotne pri ~2,400 let starih okostnjakih iz Adria. Tako se genetski podatki skladajo s teorijo kontinuitete na ozemlju Slovenije-in podpirajo Venetsko teorijo, ki zagovarja sorodnost Slovencev in Venetov.
INTRODUCTION
Analysis of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) of modern populations has become a useful tool for human population studies and for reconstructing aspects of evolutionary history. The maternal mode of inheritance of the mtDNA, allows it to
be used for inferring the pattern of prehistoric female migrations and peopling of different regions of the world. It is now technically possible to validate these analyses by directly studying the DNA of ancient people (Malyarchuk 2003, Vernesi 2004).
Vernesi et al. obtained fragments of well preserved skeletons from Etruscan necropolises, covering much of the Etruria in terms of both chronology (7th to
2nd centuries B.C.) and geography. The tombs typically belong to the social
elites, so the individuals studied may represent a specific social group, the upper classes. The ancient human remains came from the following sites: Adria,
Volterra, Castelfranco di Sotto, Castellucio di Pienza, Magliano and Marsiliana, Tarquinia and also Capua. Two cities, Adria in the Po valley and Capua in Campania, were at the fringes of Etruscan territory.
In Adria the hybridization with the Veneti may have occurred (Vernesi 2004).
Vernesi et al. compared the mtDNA results obtained from the ancient remains to
a number of modern populations. Unfortunately, they did not take into account the genetic studies of Slovenians ( Malyarchuk 2003), who are geographically relatively close to Adria.
The Etruscans are one of the mysterious peoples of the ancient world, who seem
to have appeared for a time on the stage of history, and then seemed to have
disappeared. In fact, from the end of the Roman period to the Middle Ages, they could be said to have ceased to exist, since the sites of their cities, towns,villages and farms had been completely lost.
It was in the19th century that the study of the Etruscan legacy began in earnest.
The heart of Etruria was the territory, in the present day Italy, on the Tyrrhenian Sea between the rivers, Arno on the north and Tiber on the south and extending to Perugia in the east.
The Etruscan influence in the 7th and 6th centuries B.C., went beyond its heartland and extended to, Adria in the Po valley in the north and to Capua in the south.
It is generally accepted, that present day Tuscans are the Etruscans' closest neighbors (Wellard 1973, Vernesi 2004).
The Veneti are also one the historic peoples, subject of many discussions and debates, but who were more widespread than the Etruscans.
They were present in many lands (Mogentale-Profizi 2001): Veneti in Paphlagonia -northern coast of present day Turkey-were mentioned by Homer in 9th cent. BC., Veneti in
Illyricum (Enetoi) on the lower Danube and in the upper Adriatic, were mentioned
by Herodotus in 5th cent. BC:, Veneti in central Europe mentioned by Tacitus and Pliny the Elder, Veneti in Gaul were mentioned by Caesar, and Veneti in Latium who are referred to as Venetulani by Pliny the Elder. The Veneti and
Etruscans appear to be related. However, Adria was in the 10th Roman province
'Venetia et Histria' until the downfall of the empire.
There is historical, linguistic and topographic evidence that present day Slovenians are indigenous to their land and descendents of the Veneti (Šavli 1996).
DISCUSSION of GENETIC STUDIES
In the bone fragments, taken from the tombs of Etruria, Capua and Venetia, Vernesi et al. have found that out of 22 mtDNA HVS1 haplotypes, which they observed in 28 individuals, only two of them, CRS and 16126, occur in a sample of modern Tuscans and carried by ~14% of them.
Tuscans are considered to be the descendants of the Etruscans.
Both haplotypes occur in skeletons from Adria and Magliano/Marsiliana.
The fragments from Magliano/Marsiliana have been dated at 7th-6th centuries B.C., whereas those from Adria are from 5th-4th centuries B.C. (Vernesi 2004).
Comparing the results of Vernesi et al and Malyarchuk et al, it becomes apparent that, the present day Slovenians, carry more than just CRS and 16126 'Etruscan' mtDNA HVS1 haplotypes found in the Tuscans.
Twice as many 'Etruscan' haplotypes have been found in Slovenians than in Tuscans, namely: CRS, 16261, 16223, 16311.
These were found in skeletal remains from Adria, Magliano/Marsiliana and also from Volterra. Two additional haplotypes from Adria, 16126 and 16129, are similar to Slovenian haplotypes, but the Slovenian haplotypes differ from the 'Etruscan' ones of Adria, by an additional substitution;
16069-16126 and 16129-16304. However, haplotype 16129 without the 16069
substitution is found in Bosnia.
This leaves just one haplotype out of five, namely,
16126-16193-16278, where no similar haplotype is found in Slovenia.
However, this 16126-16193-16278 haplotype is similar to that found in skeletal remains from Capua at the southern limit of Etruscan influence where hybridization with Samnium natives or Greek colonizers may have occurred (Malyarchuk 2003, Vernesi 2004).
The root type 16069-16126 HVS1 sequence, present in ~8% of Slovenians, is very diverse and may represent a trace of Neolithic (new Stone Age at the beginning of agriculture) migration from the Middle East (Malyarchuk 2003). Haplotypes CRS, 16223, 16261 and 16311 are carried by ~17% of Slovenians. They belong to haplogroup H, which is estimated to be ~20, 000 years old; this haplogroup is the most common one in Slovenians at 47% (Richards 2000, Malyarchuk 2003).
Adria in Veneto
Focusing on 5 haplotypes, CRS, 16126, 16129, 16223, 16126-16193-16278
found in skeletal remains from Adria, which was part of Venetia et Histria during
the Roman era,.(Adria is even now located in Veneto, Italy), and comparing them
to the present day populations, we find:
--CRS in Slovenians at 13% (Malyarchuk 2003), in Europe at 24% (Richards
1996)
--16126 is found as 16069-16126 in Slo at 8% (M), in Eu 16069-16126 is at 7%
(R)
--16129 is found in Bosnians (Bos) at <2% (M), in Russians at 1% (M1) in
Basques at 9% (R); in Slo it is found as 16129-16148-16223-16391 and 16129-
16223-16391 at 2% (M).
--16223 is found in Slo at 1%, elsewhere in Eu only in South Germans and
Ukrainians (M)
From the above comparison, it can be seen, that there is a genetic continuity between ancient populations as attested from the skeletal remains found in Etruria proper and especially between those found in Venetia and the present day Europeans. While Tuscans share 2 haplotypes with the Etruscans, Slovenians and Bosnians share 3 haplotypes. It should also be noted that 2 additional Etruscan haplotypes from Adria in Veneto, differ from the Slovenian haplotypes by one to three substitutions. Considering the evidence, this shows the relatively strong genetic mtDNA relationship between ancient Veneti and modern day Slovenians.
In addition to the haplotypes in ancient Veneti from Adria, Slovenians also share haplotypes with the skeletal remains of Etruscans from Etruria proper, namely
from Volterra (Vo) and Magliano/Marsiliana (M/M). Furthermore,Russians and
Poles share one lineage with Castelfranco di Sotto (CS) not found in the
Slovenian sample.
--16261 of Vo is found in Slo at 1% (M), in Eu at <1% (R).
--16311 of M/M is found in Slo at 2%, in Bosnians at 7% (M), in Eu at 5% (R)
--16126 of M/M is found in Slo as 16069-16126 lineage at 8% (M) in Eu at 7%
(R).
--CRS of M/M is found in Slo at 13% (M), in Eu at 24% (R).
--16189-16356 of (M/M) is found in Poles at 0.5%, Russians at 0.5% and
Germans at 0.4% (M1)
Here again, no abrupt differences are seen between skeletal remains from
Etruria proper and the present day Slavic populations in the Balkans. Richards et al., in their study of 520 individuals from Europe, where the Slavic populations were not included, did not detect in the 16223 haplotype, which present in skeletal remains from Adria, nor has it been found in a sample of modern Tuscans (Richards 1996, Vernesi 2004), but is has been found in Slovenia, South Germany and Ukraine (Malyarchuk 2003).
The Y chromosome studies revealed that Haplogroup I (Hg I), reached ~40%-
50% in two distinct regions-in Nordic populations in Scandinavia and around the Dinaric Alps. Overall, this suggest, that populations carrying the Hg I could have played a central role in the process of human re-colonization of Europe, after the Ice Age (Rootsi 2004). Semino proposes that Hg I (M170) haplogroup originated
in Europe in descendants of men that arrived from Middle East 20,000 to 25,000
years ago.
This can be associated with an Epi-Gravettian culture in the area of the present-day Austria, the Czech Republic and the northern Balkans (Semino 2000).
Subhaplogroup HgI1b* is the most frequent clade in eastern Europe and the Balkans; its subclade Hg I1b2 is found in Sardinia, Castille and in Basques
(6%). Rootsi et al., mention and also show graphically, that Hg I1b* and Hg I1b2
co-occur west of the Italian Apennines. In the Veneto region of Italy, Hg I1b*
occurs at a frequency of~10% and I1b2 is absent; only Hg I1b* is present west of the Appenines; east of the Adriatic Hg I1b* reaches its highest concentration in
the north western Balkans (Rootsi 2004). This is also an indication that there is a genetic continuity, based on paternally inherited Y chromosomes, between the Slovenians and the people of Veneto region, including Adria..
Barbujani in his paper ''Genetics and the population history of Europe'', shows graphically a genetic continuity between the populations of the north western Balkans and the peoples now occupying the land of the ancient Veneti and Etruscans in Italy. A clear demarcation is seen in northern Italy at the western boundary of the Veneto region (Barbujani 2001). In another genetic study of the present day populations, it has been found, that the population in eastern
Veneto, is more akin to Tuscanian, than to western Veneto population
(Mogentale-Profizi 2001).
Furthermore, Malyarchuk et al., have also noted, that Slovenians have a high frequency, at 5%, of H-subcluster 16162, which is characteristic for central and eastern European populations. In the western neighbors of Slovenians, in the Veneto speakers of Italy, this is also present, at 6% (Malyarchuk 2003).
What language did the Etruscans and/or Veneti speak? Barbujani has made an intriguing observation, that partial correlations with language are stronger for the
Y chromosome than for mtDNA (Barbujani 1997). Conventional opinion has it, that Etruscans spoke a language isolate, a non-Indo-European language and that it disappeared ~90 B.C., when they lost their autonomy to the Romans
(Vernesi 2004). Some Slovenian scholars held/hold a different view. Bor had postulated that Etruscans were people originally linguistically related to the
Veneti; (the genetic evidence supports his hypothesis); they came from the north and in course of time merged with another people, which in turn influenced their language. By using Slavic languages, as a point of reference, he was able to decipher some of the older Etruscan inscriptions, including the Pyrgian Tablets,
but not their later inscriptions. On the other hand, he was quite successful in deciphering the Venetic inscriptions (Šavli 1996).
CONCLUSION
There is a genetic continuity between the ancient Etruscans and Veneti and the present day Slovenians.
Genetic information makes it evident, that Slovenians are indigenous to their land
as indicated by the mtDNA relationship with the ~2,500 year old skeletal remains
of the Etruscans, particularly those from Adria in Veneto.
Genetic information supports the historic quotation from the biography of St. Columban written in 615 A.D. and cited by Toma?ic "Termini Venetiorum qui et Sclavi dicuntur"-the land of the Veneti who are also called Slavs (Šavli 1996).
REFERENCES
Barbujani G (1997) DNA Variation and Language Affinities. Am J Hum Genet
61:1011-1014.
Barbujani G, Bertolle G (2001) Genetics and the population history of Europe. PNAS vol. 98 no.1:22-25.
(M) Malyarchuk BA, Grzybowski T, Derenko MV, Czarny J, Drobnic K, Miscicka- Sliwka D (2003) Mitochondrial DNA Variability in Bosnians and Slovenians. Ann Hum Genet 67: 412- 425.
(M1) Malyarchuk BA, Grzybowski T, Derenko MV, Czarny J, Wozniak M, Misicka-Sliwka D (2002) Mitochondrial DNA in Poles and Russians. Ann Hum Genet 66:261-283.
Mogentale-Profizi N, Chollet L, Stevanovitch A, Dubut V, Poggi C, Pradie MP, Spadoni JL, Gilles A, Beraud-Colomb E (2001) Mitachondrial DNA sequence diversity in two groups of Italian Veneto speakers from Veneto. Ann Hum Genet
65: 153-166.
Richards M, Macaulay V, Hickey E and 34 others (2000) Tracing European
Founder Lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA Pool. Am J Hum Genet 67:1251-
1267.
Richards M, Corte-Real H, Forster P and 7 others (1996) Paleolithic and
Neolithic Lineages in the European Mitochondrial Gene Pool. Am J Hum Genet
59:185-203.
Rootsi S, Magri C, Kivisild T and 42 others (2004) Phylogeography of Y- Chromosome Haplogroup I Reveals Distinct Domains of Prehistoric Gene Flow in Europe. Am J Hum Genet 75:128-137.
Šavli J, Bor M, Toma?ic I, trans. Škerbinc A (1996) VENETI: First Builders of European Community. Wien, Boswell: Editiones Veneti ISBN 0-9681236-0-0. pp.80, 197- 199, 344, 443, 501.
Semino O, Passarino G, Oefner PJ and 14 others (2000) The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A Y Chromosome Perspective. Science vol.290 10 November.
Vernesi C, Caramelli D, Dupanloup I, Bertorelle G, Lari M, Capellini D, Moggi- Cecci J, Chiarelli B, Castri L, Casoli A, Mallegni F, Lalueza-Fox C, Barbujani G
(2004) The Etruscans: A Population-Genetic Study. Am J Hum Genet 74: 694-
704.
Wellard J (!973) The Search for the Etruscans. London: Sphere Books Ltd. ISBN
0 351 18677 8. pp.11,113.
iapetoc
Junior Member
Dejavu
IS THAT YOUR SYMBOL?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du0zh6_nasU&feature=related
look at 0:23
how many flags you change???????
we are here from 808 BC when we kick Pieri-thracians
KARAMOS FIRST KING
MAKEDONIAN DYNASTY TOTAL GREEKS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLzfWC3o130&feature=related
Alxander was Greek not Fyromian
Near to the East in a part of Ancient Greece
In an ancient land called Makedonia was born a king ....
IRON MAIDEN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y89vfNpxbW0&feature=related
you even lie about ROSETA STONE
which is demotic EGyptian, just to prove, you had another language,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgcMiF83fts&feature=related
DEjaVU TELL US OFFICIAL OPINION OF TSAR SAMUEL IN FYROM?
you even make tsar samuel of Bulgaria a Fyromian, and that lead Bulgarian to demonstrations,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE5hpeYXG94&feature=related
WAS SKOPJE BULGARIA AT ST STEPHAN TREATY???? 1878
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYKTIygY3dw&feature=related
If as you said we became makedonians at 1988
THEN WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE ALL GREEK REGION MAKEDONIA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oc5lTaa9HY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaK4ZpEnYto
they fought for Makedonia to be free from Slavian from 1878
and if you want Byzantine times, then remember Boulgaroktonos Vasil II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasile_Bulgaroktonos
maybe the Makedonian dynasty in Byzantine was also Fyromian
Well History is not fake, simply someone is trying to change it,
WE WERE, WE ARE, AND WE WILL BE HERE TO PROVE AND SAY THE TRUTH
from 808 BC when our first King Karamos establish our State WE ARE HERE SLAVIANS,
You are NO GREEK NO MAKEDONIAN YOU ARE A SLAV WITH BIG I2a2 HAPLOGROUP
ETRUSCANS CRETAN LIDYANS AEGEANS SPEAK TYRRSENNIAN BEFORE ROMAN,
NOT SLAVOMAKEDONSKI,
EVEN ATHENS SPOKE TYRRSHENIAN BEFORE GREEK REA THUKIDIDESTyrrshenian or thracian ot thrassenian
in eteo-crete even 100 AD the good morning was 'mari dia' not 'dobro utro'
The Lemnian stele is Tyrrshenian with Phoenician writting in an island north of aegean near chalkidiki Makedonia original
it is simple your languge is slavian cause Makedonian language was a dialect of Greek according to Hesychius of Alexandria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychius_of_Alexandria
The 1st Makedonian Lexicon
is that slavian?
source Under the auspices of the Royal Danish Academy of Fine Arts in Copenhagen a modern edition has been in intermittent publication since 1953: to date, the new edition covers alpha through tau.
after Slavian invasion and Bulgarian-Hun invasion now Slavians claims that they were here before Even Thracians
GOds what else i will hear, maybe indians invade America????
well if I curse Tito is that illegal?
Besides the I2a2 Haplogroup in the map the genetical difference is Big,
E and J2 and low I2 in GreeK makedonia, also little J2 in Fyrom Thank you
the difference is obvious
Fyrom is genetically related with serbs and west bulgaria more than Greek Makedonia
IS THAT YOUR SYMBOL?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du0zh6_nasU&feature=related
look at 0:23
how many flags you change???????
we are here from 808 BC when we kick Pieri-thracians
KARAMOS FIRST KING
MAKEDONIAN DYNASTY TOTAL GREEKS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLzfWC3o130&feature=related
Alxander was Greek not Fyromian
Near to the East in a part of Ancient Greece
In an ancient land called Makedonia was born a king ....
IRON MAIDEN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y89vfNpxbW0&feature=related
you even lie about ROSETA STONE
which is demotic EGyptian, just to prove, you had another language,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgcMiF83fts&feature=related
DEjaVU TELL US OFFICIAL OPINION OF TSAR SAMUEL IN FYROM?
you even make tsar samuel of Bulgaria a Fyromian, and that lead Bulgarian to demonstrations,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE5hpeYXG94&feature=related
WAS SKOPJE BULGARIA AT ST STEPHAN TREATY???? 1878
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYKTIygY3dw&feature=related
If as you said we became makedonians at 1988
THEN WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE ALL GREEK REGION MAKEDONIA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oc5lTaa9HY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaK4ZpEnYto
they fought for Makedonia to be free from Slavian from 1878
and if you want Byzantine times, then remember Boulgaroktonos Vasil II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasile_Bulgaroktonos
maybe the Makedonian dynasty in Byzantine was also Fyromian
Well History is not fake, simply someone is trying to change it,
WE WERE, WE ARE, AND WE WILL BE HERE TO PROVE AND SAY THE TRUTH
from 808 BC when our first King Karamos establish our State WE ARE HERE SLAVIANS,
You are NO GREEK NO MAKEDONIAN YOU ARE A SLAV WITH BIG I2a2 HAPLOGROUP
ETRUSCANS CRETAN LIDYANS AEGEANS SPEAK TYRRSENNIAN BEFORE ROMAN,
NOT SLAVOMAKEDONSKI,
EVEN ATHENS SPOKE TYRRSHENIAN BEFORE GREEK REA THUKIDIDESTyrrshenian or thracian ot thrassenian
in eteo-crete even 100 AD the good morning was 'mari dia' not 'dobro utro'
The Lemnian stele is Tyrrshenian with Phoenician writting in an island north of aegean near chalkidiki Makedonia original
it is simple your languge is slavian cause Makedonian language was a dialect of Greek according to Hesychius of Alexandria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychius_of_Alexandria
The 1st Makedonian Lexicon
is that slavian?
source Under the auspices of the Royal Danish Academy of Fine Arts in Copenhagen a modern edition has been in intermittent publication since 1953: to date, the new edition covers alpha through tau.
after Slavian invasion and Bulgarian-Hun invasion now Slavians claims that they were here before Even Thracians
GOds what else i will hear, maybe indians invade America????
well if I curse Tito is that illegal?
Besides the I2a2 Haplogroup in the map the genetical difference is Big,
E and J2 and low I2 in GreeK makedonia, also little J2 in Fyrom Thank you
the difference is obvious
Fyrom is genetically related with serbs and west bulgaria more than Greek Makedonia
DejaVu
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Division of Macedonia
The events of the two wars and the final partition are the best indications of the limits to which nationalist and chauvinist passions can corrupt humanity. For example, in pursuing the Bulgarian army during the second conflict, Greek forces systematically burnt to the ground all Macedonian villages they encountered, mass-murdering their entire populations. Likewise, when the Greek army entered Kukuš (Kilkis) and occupied surrounding villages, about 400 old people and children were imprisoned and killed. Several dozen distinguished Macedonians were victims of the persecution in Kukuš, previously marked for death as potential hazards for Greek occupation. Specially trained Greek units destroyed over 40 Macedonian villages.
About 4,000 refugees from Kukuš had gathered in the village of Akandzheli when on July 6, 1913, a Greek military unit entered the village. Though met with white flags, the village was burnt down and in the massacre which followed 356 refugees were killed, including children and the elderly. In Serez, Greek police imprisoned about 200 Macedonians and subsequently executed them. About 1,000 men were slain in the town of Nigrita alone. On the whole, in the region of southern Macedonia, the Greeks destroyed 16,000 houses and 100,000 Macedonians were forced to leave their homes and flee to neighboring countries.
"Map of ethnical-geographical Macedonia, a territory that
was never Greek, Bulgarian, nor Serbian before 1913"Bulgarian armies and Vrhovist bands were not any more scrupulous in respecting human life. In the small town of Dokast, inhabited by Greeks and Turks, the Bulgarians fired 270 out of 570 homes and killed a hundred people. When they occupied the town of Serez for the second time, they torched 4,000 houses out of 6,000 and massacred many of the inhabitants, mainly Turks and Greeks, on the pretext of revenging the slain Macedonian population of the town.
Nor did the Serbian "liberators" lag behind in destruction and wanton slaughter throughout Macedonia. In Bitola, Skopje, Štip and Gevgelija, the Serbian army, police and chetniks (guerrillas) committed their own atrocities.
Nor were these events to be the last tragic consequences of the Balkan Wars: an enormous number of refugees from Macedonia were compelled by threats and force to leave their homes and flee. About 112,000 refugees sought shelter in Bulgaria, 50,000 of whom were Macedonians. Greece received 157,000 refugees, mostly Turks and Greeks, who settled on the properties of Macedonian refugees. About 1,000 refugees settled on Macedonian territory occupied by Serbia. About half a million people became refugees, driven across newly-created borders-driven from one part of Macedonia to another by the rampaging armies.
The events of the two wars and the final partition are the best indications of the limits to which nationalist and chauvinist passions can corrupt humanity. For example, in pursuing the Bulgarian army during the second conflict, Greek forces systematically burnt to the ground all Macedonian villages they encountered, mass-murdering their entire populations. Likewise, when the Greek army entered Kukuš (Kilkis) and occupied surrounding villages, about 400 old people and children were imprisoned and killed. Several dozen distinguished Macedonians were victims of the persecution in Kukuš, previously marked for death as potential hazards for Greek occupation. Specially trained Greek units destroyed over 40 Macedonian villages.
About 4,000 refugees from Kukuš had gathered in the village of Akandzheli when on July 6, 1913, a Greek military unit entered the village. Though met with white flags, the village was burnt down and in the massacre which followed 356 refugees were killed, including children and the elderly. In Serez, Greek police imprisoned about 200 Macedonians and subsequently executed them. About 1,000 men were slain in the town of Nigrita alone. On the whole, in the region of southern Macedonia, the Greeks destroyed 16,000 houses and 100,000 Macedonians were forced to leave their homes and flee to neighboring countries.
"Map of ethnical-geographical Macedonia, a territory that
was never Greek, Bulgarian, nor Serbian before 1913"
Nor did the Serbian "liberators" lag behind in destruction and wanton slaughter throughout Macedonia. In Bitola, Skopje, Štip and Gevgelija, the Serbian army, police and chetniks (guerrillas) committed their own atrocities.
Nor were these events to be the last tragic consequences of the Balkan Wars: an enormous number of refugees from Macedonia were compelled by threats and force to leave their homes and flee. About 112,000 refugees sought shelter in Bulgaria, 50,000 of whom were Macedonians. Greece received 157,000 refugees, mostly Turks and Greeks, who settled on the properties of Macedonian refugees. About 1,000 refugees settled on Macedonian territory occupied by Serbia. About half a million people became refugees, driven across newly-created borders-driven from one part of Macedonia to another by the rampaging armies.
I had to give it to you, you didn't start lying until I read about this part, also the start of you 'evidence' that a maceodnian self identity started in 995, which was still Byzantium at this point. lets look more into detail about this Ohrid Archbishopic shall we? :grin:
BULGARIAN ARCHBISHOPRIC OF OHRID
"
The Archbishopric of Ohrid was an autonomous Orthodox Church[1][2][3][4] under the tutelage of the Ecumenical Patriarch of ConstantinopleJohn I TzimiscesPreslav capturing Bulgarian Tsar Boris II. The Patriarch Damyan managed to escape, initially to Sredetz in western Bulgaria. In the coming years, the residence of the Bulgarian patriarchs remained closely connected to the developments in the war between the next Bulgarian monarchist dynasty, the Comitopuli, and the Byzantine Empire. Thus, the next Patriarch German resided consecutively in MoglenVoden - (in present-day Greece), and Prespa (in present-day Republic of Macedonia). Around 990, the last patriarch, Philip, moved to Ohrid (in present-day Republic of Macedonia), which also became the permanent seat of the Patriarchate. between 1019 and 1767. In 972, Byzantine Emperor conquered and burned down and
Mantle presented to the Archbishopric of Ohrid from the Byzantine Emperor, Andronikos II Palaiologos, with an inscription, saying that the Archbishop was the spiritual shepard of the Bulgarians - Bulgarian National Historical Museum.
After by 1018 the First Bulgarian Empire had been subjugated by the Byzantines the Emperor Basil II acknowledged the autocephalous status of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church and by virtue of special royal decrees set up its boundaries, dioceses, property and other privileges. The Archibishopric was seated in Ohrid in the Byzantine theme of Bulgaria and was established in 1019 by lowering of the rank of the autocephalous Bulgarian Patriarchate and its subjugation to the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Constantinople. Although the first appointed archbishop (John of Debar) was a Bulgarian, his successors, as well as the whole higher clergy, were invariably Greeks, the most famous of them being Saint Theophylact of Bulgaria (1078–1107). The Greek language quite early replaced Old Church Slavonic as the official language of the Archbishopric. All documents and even hagiographies of Bulgarian saints, for example the hagiography of Saint Clement of Ohrid, were written in Greek. Despite this, the Slavonic liturgy was preserved on the lower levels of the Church for several centuries. The autocephaly of the Ohrid Archbishopric remained respected during the periods of Byzantine, Bulgarian, Serbian and Ottoman rule and the church continued to exist until its abolition in 1767, when it was abolished by the Sultan's decree, at the urging of the Greek church in Istanbul, and was placed under the jurisdiction of the patriarch of Constantinople.[5]."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_Archbishopric_of_Ohrid
There are other lies throughout your post but I though I'd start with the first one, the same point where you think you mention the macedonian self identity. I don't have the time to go through the rest of the lies right now, I'll do it later
DejaVu
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- Points
- 0
GREEK FLAG OR IS IT?
THIS IS MAYBE THE REAL FLAG BUT ADOPTED TO GREECE ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company
WELCOME TO INVENTED FAKE COUNTRY GREECE
The Macedonian dynasty ruled the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire from 867 to 1056, following the Amorian dynasty. During this period, the Byzantine state reached its greatest expanse since the Muslim conquests, and the Macedonian Renaissance in letters and arts began. The dynasty was named after its founder, Basil I the Macedonian, who was descended from the theme of Macedonia. The dynasty's founder and many subsequent emperors were of Armenian descent, hence the dynasty is also referred to by some authors as the Armenian Dynasty.[1]
ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL ME THE MACEDONIAN DYNASTY OF BYZANTIUM THAT RULED THE SAME TIME AS YOU SAY THE MACEDONIAN CHURCH WAS FORCEFULLY SHUT DOWN WERE LYERS? LOL WHY WOULD THEY SHUT DOWN THEIR OWN CHURCH!?!
ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL ME THE MACEDONIAN DYNASTY OF BYZANTIUM THAT RULED THE SAME TIME AS YOU SAY THE MACEDONIAN CHURCH WAS FORCEFULLY SHUT DOWN WERE LYERS? LOL WHY WOULD THEY SHUT DOWN THEIR OWN CHURCH!?!
how yes no 2
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DejaVu,
I have no doubt that Slavs were previously known as Veneti. That is even easy to prove as it is written by Jordanes in time when Slavs appeared in history. From what we know, Liburnians are most likely Veneti related, thus same origin.
However, questionable and harder to prove is relation to e.g. Etruscans (btw. Etruscans did come to Italy from Lydia in Asia minor...as Lydians they might have indeed been somewhat related to Veneti in origin and culture as Veneti origin from Paphlagonia Eneti...), Scordisci and ancient Macedonians... Etruscans could have been mix of I2a1, G and R1a...
A clue that Thracians, Scordisci, ancient Macedonians were Veneti related people could be that I2a2 is obviously mark of Veneti and also obviously present in Greece and Asia minor before so called Slav settlements on Balkan. But still even if they were I2a2 dominant, genetic origin does not equal cultural origin. People tend to change languages... look at rather recent spread of Latin derived languages...
my opinion is that there were 3 streams of I2a2 + R1a people from Asia minor:
1) Veneti who were kicked out from Paphlagonia after expedition with Cimmerians and settled east Europe and Adriatic coast
2) Cimmerians or Gommer as I have shown also match I2a2 hotspot in Asia minor and north of Black sea....I beleieve those people gave later Sarmatians (together with some G tribes native to Caucasus)...
3) spread through Thrace and Moesia...this spread could have participated perhaps dominantly in Scordisci, Illyrians and ancient Macedonians.... but it is difficult to prove this as we do not really know haplogroups and culture of those peoples.... perhaps with testring subbranches of haplogroups in more details...
also it is question how did R1a and I2a2 mix, as Illyrians are not likely to have been R1a, while Paphlagonia Eneti were both R1a and I2a2, and while R1a seems to be ancient old in Serbia, Macedonia and Bosnia...
Anyway, I totally agree that massive/total replacement of population is a myth... but it could have happened that language and culture of people was shifted... e.g. Thracian language seems to have been closer to language of Balts than to the language of modern Slavic people... ancient Macedonians were likely hellenized people...at least their leadership was... Greek was in that time like english now due to towns of Greece being in that time strong merchant power with lot of colonies and with incredibly reach culture for that period....
I have no doubt that Slavs were previously known as Veneti. That is even easy to prove as it is written by Jordanes in time when Slavs appeared in history. From what we know, Liburnians are most likely Veneti related, thus same origin.
However, questionable and harder to prove is relation to e.g. Etruscans (btw. Etruscans did come to Italy from Lydia in Asia minor...as Lydians they might have indeed been somewhat related to Veneti in origin and culture as Veneti origin from Paphlagonia Eneti...), Scordisci and ancient Macedonians... Etruscans could have been mix of I2a1, G and R1a...
A clue that Thracians, Scordisci, ancient Macedonians were Veneti related people could be that I2a2 is obviously mark of Veneti and also obviously present in Greece and Asia minor before so called Slav settlements on Balkan. But still even if they were I2a2 dominant, genetic origin does not equal cultural origin. People tend to change languages... look at rather recent spread of Latin derived languages...
my opinion is that there were 3 streams of I2a2 + R1a people from Asia minor:
1) Veneti who were kicked out from Paphlagonia after expedition with Cimmerians and settled east Europe and Adriatic coast
2) Cimmerians or Gommer as I have shown also match I2a2 hotspot in Asia minor and north of Black sea....I beleieve those people gave later Sarmatians (together with some G tribes native to Caucasus)...
3) spread through Thrace and Moesia...this spread could have participated perhaps dominantly in Scordisci, Illyrians and ancient Macedonians.... but it is difficult to prove this as we do not really know haplogroups and culture of those peoples.... perhaps with testring subbranches of haplogroups in more details...
also it is question how did R1a and I2a2 mix, as Illyrians are not likely to have been R1a, while Paphlagonia Eneti were both R1a and I2a2, and while R1a seems to be ancient old in Serbia, Macedonia and Bosnia...
Anyway, I totally agree that massive/total replacement of population is a myth... but it could have happened that language and culture of people was shifted... e.g. Thracian language seems to have been closer to language of Balts than to the language of modern Slavic people... ancient Macedonians were likely hellenized people...at least their leadership was... Greek was in that time like english now due to towns of Greece being in that time strong merchant power with lot of colonies and with incredibly reach culture for that period....
DejaVu
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Macedonian Dynasty? You mean the fake macedonians? The Theme Macedonia and the Armenians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Dynasty
The Macedonian dynasty ruled the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire from 867 to 1056, following the Amorian dynasty. During this period, the Byzantine state reached its greatest expanse since the Muslim conquests, and the Macedonian Renaissance in letters and arts began. The dynasty was named after its founder, Basil I the Macedonian, who was descended from the theme of Macedonia. The dynasty's founder and many subsequent emperors were of Armenian descent, hence the dynasty is also referred to by some authors as the Armenian Dynasty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantium_under_the_Macedonians
The Byzantine Empire reached its height under the Macedonian emperors of the late 9th, 10th, and early 11th centuries, when it gained control over the Adriatic Sea, southern Italy, and all of the territory of the tsar Samuel. The cities of the empire expanded, and affluence spread across the provinces because of the new-found security. The population rose, and production increased, stimulating new demand while also helping to encourage trade. Culturally, there was considerable growth in education and learning (the "Macedonian Renaissance"). Ancient texts were preserved and patiently re-copied. Byzantine art flourished, and brilliant mosaics graced the interiors of the many new churches. Though the empire was significantly smaller than during the reign of Justinian, it was also stronger, as the remaining territories were less geographically dispersed and more politically and culturally integrated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantium_under_the_Macedonians
WHAT LANGUAGES WAS USED IN THE BYZANTINE EMPIRE?
Language(s)Greek, Macedonian, Armenian, Old Church Slavonic and other South Slavic languages, Syriac, Arabic, Medieval Latin, Romance languages
What is Macedonian language doing there if it does not exist?
Tito had a time machine?
Bulgarian language does not exist in Byzantine Empire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saints_Cyril_and_Methodius
Saints Cyril and Methodius
The two brothers were born in Thessaloniki - Cyril in 827-828 and Methodius in 815-820. Cyril was reputedly the youngest of seven brothers, according to the "Vita Cyrilli" ("The Life of Cyril"). Their father was Leo, a droungarios of the Byzantine theme of Thessaloniki, and their mother was Maria, who may have been a Slav.
There is no fact anyone was greek of them and only slav referred people where macedonians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Dynasty
The Macedonian dynasty ruled the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire from 867 to 1056, following the Amorian dynasty. During this period, the Byzantine state reached its greatest expanse since the Muslim conquests, and the Macedonian Renaissance in letters and arts began. The dynasty was named after its founder, Basil I the Macedonian, who was descended from the theme of Macedonia. The dynasty's founder and many subsequent emperors were of Armenian descent, hence the dynasty is also referred to by some authors as the Armenian Dynasty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantium_under_the_Macedonians
The Byzantine Empire reached its height under the Macedonian emperors of the late 9th, 10th, and early 11th centuries, when it gained control over the Adriatic Sea, southern Italy, and all of the territory of the tsar Samuel. The cities of the empire expanded, and affluence spread across the provinces because of the new-found security. The population rose, and production increased, stimulating new demand while also helping to encourage trade. Culturally, there was considerable growth in education and learning (the "Macedonian Renaissance"). Ancient texts were preserved and patiently re-copied. Byzantine art flourished, and brilliant mosaics graced the interiors of the many new churches. Though the empire was significantly smaller than during the reign of Justinian, it was also stronger, as the remaining territories were less geographically dispersed and more politically and culturally integrated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantium_under_the_Macedonians
WHAT LANGUAGES WAS USED IN THE BYZANTINE EMPIRE?
Language(s)Greek, Macedonian, Armenian, Old Church Slavonic and other South Slavic languages, Syriac, Arabic, Medieval Latin, Romance languages
What is Macedonian language doing there if it does not exist?
Tito had a time machine?
Bulgarian language does not exist in Byzantine Empire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saints_Cyril_and_Methodius
Saints Cyril and Methodius
The two brothers were born in Thessaloniki - Cyril in 827-828 and Methodius in 815-820. Cyril was reputedly the youngest of seven brothers, according to the "Vita Cyrilli" ("The Life of Cyril"). Their father was Leo, a droungarios of the Byzantine theme of Thessaloniki, and their mother was Maria, who may have been a Slav.
There is no fact anyone was greek of them and only slav referred people where macedonians.
DejaVu
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Macedonian Lexicon - 16th Century
Record of the Macedonian language
The texts presented for analysis in this article were produced by the Institut Detudes Slave, De L’universite De Paris in 1958, and are a study based on words and phrases from Macedonia in the 16th century. It is one of the earliest manuscripts written in a purely Macedonian vernacular tongue, and its content was collected from the village of Bogatsko, which is found in the region of Kostur in the south-west of Macedonia. The author remains anonymous and the only likely conclusion that can be drawn is that he may have spoken the Macedonian language natively or acquired it as an additional tongue due to living in close proximity to people who spoke it. The texts were written using the Greek alphabet, which was not uncommon in the Balkans during the Ottoman period, as similar examples with the Albanian and Vlach languages have demonstrated. Furthermore, the ‘Bulgarian’ label that was at times attached to the Macedonian language is employed in the texts, remnant terminology that had remained in use largely due to Macedonia’s former location within the Bulgarian Empire. Despite this, however, there can be no doubt that the dialect (and indeed location) of Bogatsko belongs to Macedonia, and not Bulgaria.
Macedonia during the Middle Ages
By the end of the 14th century, Macedonia had already been under Ottoman rule for a few decades, losing its status as a vassal state under the leadership of King Marko in 1395. As the greater region was finally deprived of any sense of liberty after the death of George Kastriot - Skenderbeg in 1444, forms of local state structure in Macedonia ceased to exist. This left the responsibility of retaining the culture, language and identity of the people with the religious institutions that were active in Macedonia at that time. The traditional influence of the Patriarchate at Constantinople that was prevalent during the Roman period had resurfaced again in the Ottoman Empire, as the latter looked to use the former to consolidate a single Roman Millet of Orthodox Christians within their domains. However, institutions such as the Archbishopric of Ohrid and even more significantly the hundreds of churches in Macedonia, played a pivotal role in ensuring the local culture, language and identity of the people would survive throughout the centuries of hardships.
Despite the absence of written works relating to statehood, material of a religious and educational character continued to flourish, and Church Slavonic, an essentially Macedonian tongue that was initially developed for such purposes in the 9th century, remained the literary language of the Macedonian people. However, the vernacular tongue of the Macedonians had co-existed with Church Slavonic and matured over the years, demonstrating a remarkable resilience and stability, which earned its introduced as the language of church services in Macedonia. The Macedonians were faced with foreign interference in both their lands and institutions, but their language had been largely solidified, evidenced in the fact that spoken Macedonian from the 16th century has a far greater affinity to spoken Macedonian dialects of today than it does to Church Slavonic. For well over half of a millenium, the Macedonian language has basically remained the same.
Vocabulary and Linguistic Characteristics
The texts reveal distinctive local features that have tenaciously survived the ages, and are still present in a number of today’s spoken Macedonian dialects. This fact reveals the remarkable consistency of the Macedonian language despite the lack of state support or schooling until the 20th century. Below is a sample of words from the texts, along with linguistic characteristics peculiar to the language of the Macedonians.
Animal/Food/Anatomy Terms - Mrave (Ants); Curvec (Worm), Sokol (Falcon), Vrapci (Birds), Golobi (Pigeons), Kokoshki (Chickens), Petel (Rooster), Ofci (Sheep), Kozi (Goats), Jagne (Lamb), Mechika (Bear), Elen (Deer), Lisica (Fox), Kon (Horse), Krusha (Pear), Meso (Meat), Sireni (Cheese), Jajca (Eggs), Vino (Wine), Sol (Salt), Zhito (Grain), Koska (Bone), Gas (Buttocks), Kuro (Penis), Made (Testicles).
Unique and Loan Words - The word Galuhci (Mice) is used, which can also be said as Gluhci or Glufci, and Macedonians are the only people who use this word. The word Veligden (Easter) is used, pronounced with the ‘g’ in Macedonian only. Turkish loans are very rare, one example being Jorgano (Blanket).
Dialectal and Jat Features - The Kostur region contains dialects that have retain several archaic characteristics, such as the word Ranka (Hand) rather than the more common Macedonian variant of Raka. An interesting trend is found in the use of multiple transitions of the Jat feature that is present in various Macedonian and Slavonic dialects. For example, the text employs the word Dedo (Grandfather) and not Djado, yet Hljap (Bread) and not Lep or Leb.
Definite Articles - The typical Macedonian postfixed definite article is exhibited in words such as Krushata (The Pear) and Dushata (The Soul). It is also noted in the word Patot (The Path) for ‘the path’ , although as the case of Jorgano (The Blanket) demonstrates, the ‘t’ at the end can also be dropped, as in several of today’s Macedonian dialects.
Words and Phrases, Unchanged for Centuries.
Containing a rich glossary and in excess of 300 words and phrases, the texts demonstrate the strength of the Macedonian language through preservation. Following is a comparison of sentences between the texts and the Macedonian dialect of Bitola as spoken today.
16th cent., Kostur dialect
21st cent., Bitola dialect
Gospodine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostavi ni da spime, ela da jame, i da pieme, dol da pojdime, da rabotime.
Gospodine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostai ne da spiame, ela da jaime, i da piame, dolu da pojdime, da rabotime.
Imate hljap-o da kupime, imate vino da kupime, ot koja strana da pojdime vo Bogasko.
Imate lep da kupime, imate vino da kupime, od koja strana da pojdime vo Bogatsko.
As can be clearly noticed, most of the vocabulary and grammar is identical.
All of the elements that would later be required to rejuvinate the Macedonian people as they were shaking off centuries of subjugation, were present during this period. The language of the people had solidified, a tradition of heraldry and symbolism had developed which incorporated the emblem of a rapant lion and historical figures from Macedonia’s past, and the churches continued preserve the local customs and serve as cultural centres for the population. The significance of all these elements together cannot be overstated, the language of medieval Macedonia is the same as the language of the Macedonians today. Unfortunately, only a small portion of the larger amount of Macedonian literature from the Middle Ages has survived, much of it being looted and destroyed by Greek-speaking officials, clerics and teachers. Nevertheless, Macedonian as a language reached its current form centuries before the creation of the Balkan states in the 19th and 20th centuries.
Record of the Macedonian language
The texts presented for analysis in this article were produced by the Institut Detudes Slave, De L’universite De Paris in 1958, and are a study based on words and phrases from Macedonia in the 16th century. It is one of the earliest manuscripts written in a purely Macedonian vernacular tongue, and its content was collected from the village of Bogatsko, which is found in the region of Kostur in the south-west of Macedonia. The author remains anonymous and the only likely conclusion that can be drawn is that he may have spoken the Macedonian language natively or acquired it as an additional tongue due to living in close proximity to people who spoke it. The texts were written using the Greek alphabet, which was not uncommon in the Balkans during the Ottoman period, as similar examples with the Albanian and Vlach languages have demonstrated. Furthermore, the ‘Bulgarian’ label that was at times attached to the Macedonian language is employed in the texts, remnant terminology that had remained in use largely due to Macedonia’s former location within the Bulgarian Empire. Despite this, however, there can be no doubt that the dialect (and indeed location) of Bogatsko belongs to Macedonia, and not Bulgaria.
Macedonia during the Middle Ages
By the end of the 14th century, Macedonia had already been under Ottoman rule for a few decades, losing its status as a vassal state under the leadership of King Marko in 1395. As the greater region was finally deprived of any sense of liberty after the death of George Kastriot - Skenderbeg in 1444, forms of local state structure in Macedonia ceased to exist. This left the responsibility of retaining the culture, language and identity of the people with the religious institutions that were active in Macedonia at that time. The traditional influence of the Patriarchate at Constantinople that was prevalent during the Roman period had resurfaced again in the Ottoman Empire, as the latter looked to use the former to consolidate a single Roman Millet of Orthodox Christians within their domains. However, institutions such as the Archbishopric of Ohrid and even more significantly the hundreds of churches in Macedonia, played a pivotal role in ensuring the local culture, language and identity of the people would survive throughout the centuries of hardships.
Despite the absence of written works relating to statehood, material of a religious and educational character continued to flourish, and Church Slavonic, an essentially Macedonian tongue that was initially developed for such purposes in the 9th century, remained the literary language of the Macedonian people. However, the vernacular tongue of the Macedonians had co-existed with Church Slavonic and matured over the years, demonstrating a remarkable resilience and stability, which earned its introduced as the language of church services in Macedonia. The Macedonians were faced with foreign interference in both their lands and institutions, but their language had been largely solidified, evidenced in the fact that spoken Macedonian from the 16th century has a far greater affinity to spoken Macedonian dialects of today than it does to Church Slavonic. For well over half of a millenium, the Macedonian language has basically remained the same.
Vocabulary and Linguistic Characteristics
The texts reveal distinctive local features that have tenaciously survived the ages, and are still present in a number of today’s spoken Macedonian dialects. This fact reveals the remarkable consistency of the Macedonian language despite the lack of state support or schooling until the 20th century. Below is a sample of words from the texts, along with linguistic characteristics peculiar to the language of the Macedonians.
Animal/Food/Anatomy Terms - Mrave (Ants); Curvec (Worm), Sokol (Falcon), Vrapci (Birds), Golobi (Pigeons), Kokoshki (Chickens), Petel (Rooster), Ofci (Sheep), Kozi (Goats), Jagne (Lamb), Mechika (Bear), Elen (Deer), Lisica (Fox), Kon (Horse), Krusha (Pear), Meso (Meat), Sireni (Cheese), Jajca (Eggs), Vino (Wine), Sol (Salt), Zhito (Grain), Koska (Bone), Gas (Buttocks), Kuro (Penis), Made (Testicles).
Unique and Loan Words - The word Galuhci (Mice) is used, which can also be said as Gluhci or Glufci, and Macedonians are the only people who use this word. The word Veligden (Easter) is used, pronounced with the ‘g’ in Macedonian only. Turkish loans are very rare, one example being Jorgano (Blanket).
Dialectal and Jat Features - The Kostur region contains dialects that have retain several archaic characteristics, such as the word Ranka (Hand) rather than the more common Macedonian variant of Raka. An interesting trend is found in the use of multiple transitions of the Jat feature that is present in various Macedonian and Slavonic dialects. For example, the text employs the word Dedo (Grandfather) and not Djado, yet Hljap (Bread) and not Lep or Leb.
Definite Articles - The typical Macedonian postfixed definite article is exhibited in words such as Krushata (The Pear) and Dushata (The Soul). It is also noted in the word Patot (The Path) for ‘the path’ , although as the case of Jorgano (The Blanket) demonstrates, the ‘t’ at the end can also be dropped, as in several of today’s Macedonian dialects.
Words and Phrases, Unchanged for Centuries.
Containing a rich glossary and in excess of 300 words and phrases, the texts demonstrate the strength of the Macedonian language through preservation. Following is a comparison of sentences between the texts and the Macedonian dialect of Bitola as spoken today.
16th cent., Kostur dialect
21st cent., Bitola dialect
Gospodine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostavi ni da spime, ela da jame, i da pieme, dol da pojdime, da rabotime.
Gospodine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostai ne da spiame, ela da jaime, i da piame, dolu da pojdime, da rabotime.
Imate hljap-o da kupime, imate vino da kupime, ot koja strana da pojdime vo Bogasko.
Imate lep da kupime, imate vino da kupime, od koja strana da pojdime vo Bogatsko.
As can be clearly noticed, most of the vocabulary and grammar is identical.
All of the elements that would later be required to rejuvinate the Macedonian people as they were shaking off centuries of subjugation, were present during this period. The language of the people had solidified, a tradition of heraldry and symbolism had developed which incorporated the emblem of a rapant lion and historical figures from Macedonia’s past, and the churches continued preserve the local customs and serve as cultural centres for the population. The significance of all these elements together cannot be overstated, the language of medieval Macedonia is the same as the language of the Macedonians today. Unfortunately, only a small portion of the larger amount of Macedonian literature from the Middle Ages has survived, much of it being looted and destroyed by Greek-speaking officials, clerics and teachers. Nevertheless, Macedonian as a language reached its current form centuries before the creation of the Balkan states in the 19th and 20th centuries.
DejaVu
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic
Old Church Slavonic
Old Church Slavonic or Old Church Slavic (abbreviated as OCS), also known as Old Bulgarian or Old Macedonian, was the first literary Slavic language, based on the old Slavic dialect of the Thessaloniki region, employed by the 9th century Byzantine missionaries, Saints Cyril and Methodius, who used it for translation of the Bible and other Ancient Greek ecclesiastical texts, and for some of their own writings.
The Macedonian recension is one of the oldest recensions of Old Church Slavonic. The recension is named so by modern scientists because its literary centre, Ohrid, is located in what today is referred to as the geographical region of Macedonia, today part of the Republic of Macedonia. At that period, administratively Ohrid was in the province of Kutmichevitsa in the First Bulgarian Empire until 1018.The main literary centre of this recension was the Ohrid Literary School, whose most prominent member and most likely founder, was Saint Clement of Ohrid. The language variety that was used in the area started shaping Macedonian dialects. The Macedonian language was standardized in 1945 on the basis of the Central Macedonian dialects which evolved from the Macedonian recension. This recension is represented by the Codex Zographensis and Marianus, among others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgar_language
Bulgar (also Bolğar, Bulghar and Proto-Bulgarian) was the language of the Bulgars. Very few records exist of the language and little of them is understood. Considered by most linguists to have been a Turkic language, it is believed to have been spoken in the states founded by the Bulgars, namely Old Great Bulgaria (in the 7th century), Danube Bulgaria (from the 7th until the 9th century), and Volga Bulgaria (until the 13th century or 14th century).
This is the real Bulgarian language not the new adopted slavic language.
Old Church Slavonic
Old Church Slavonic or Old Church Slavic (abbreviated as OCS), also known as Old Bulgarian or Old Macedonian, was the first literary Slavic language, based on the old Slavic dialect of the Thessaloniki region, employed by the 9th century Byzantine missionaries, Saints Cyril and Methodius, who used it for translation of the Bible and other Ancient Greek ecclesiastical texts, and for some of their own writings.
The Macedonian recension is one of the oldest recensions of Old Church Slavonic. The recension is named so by modern scientists because its literary centre, Ohrid, is located in what today is referred to as the geographical region of Macedonia, today part of the Republic of Macedonia. At that period, administratively Ohrid was in the province of Kutmichevitsa in the First Bulgarian Empire until 1018.The main literary centre of this recension was the Ohrid Literary School, whose most prominent member and most likely founder, was Saint Clement of Ohrid. The language variety that was used in the area started shaping Macedonian dialects. The Macedonian language was standardized in 1945 on the basis of the Central Macedonian dialects which evolved from the Macedonian recension. This recension is represented by the Codex Zographensis and Marianus, among others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgar_language
Bulgar (also Bolğar, Bulghar and Proto-Bulgarian) was the language of the Bulgars. Very few records exist of the language and little of them is understood. Considered by most linguists to have been a Turkic language, it is believed to have been spoken in the states founded by the Bulgars, namely Old Great Bulgaria (in the 7th century), Danube Bulgaria (from the 7th until the 9th century), and Volga Bulgaria (until the 13th century or 14th century).
This is the real Bulgarian language not the new adopted slavic language.
DejaVu
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Because of Greeks are claiming to be macedonians its time to show who they are.
Origins of the inhabitants of Modern Greece:
But the revival was only for a time, and, in spite of Greek struggles, at the end of the tenth century Sclavonians formed almost the entire population of Macedonia, Epirus, continental Greece and the Peloponnese…….It was during these centuries, that what remained, if indeed anything remained, of even degenerate Hellenic blood absorbed or was absorbed into that of the Slav……Indeed, the Albanians appear to have done for Greece in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries something like that which that Sclavonians had done in the sixth and seventh….They number about 200,000 souls; and within a greater part of the districts occupied by Albanians at the present day the Greeks have been as completely expelled as the Celtic race in England by the Saxon. Unlike the Greek, for him the bonds of nationality are stronger than those of religion…..to assert that a Greek Christian is a Hellene is as reasonable as to call all Roman Catholics Italians; and to claim a Slav or Albanian as a Hellene because he speaks Greek, is much the same as calling an educated Russian French, or an Irishman English, because they prefer French or English to their own less developed languages. (A Monthly Review – Greece, Spoilt Child of Europe)
Albanian origins of the liberators and leaders of Modern Greece:
The chief authority was conceded to the Albanian shipowners; George Konduriottes of Hydra was elected president of Greece, and Botasses of Spetzas vice-president…..The Greeks are the most prejudived of all Europeans when there is a question of the purity of the Hellenic race, and no people regards education with more favour; yet with all this nationality and pedantry they intrusted their public affairs, in a period of great difficulty, to two men who could not address them in the Greek language. (George Finlay, History of the Greek Revolution)
The castle of Karytena, even in its ruins, has a proud feudal aspect, and was again, early in our century, the stronghold of one of the most famous and notorious of the revolutionary chiefs – Colocotroni. He ranks as a hero in that war……..He is described as of the Albanian type. (J. P Mahhafy, Greek Pictures)
……the liberators of Greece…..Nine or ten of them performed the Albanian national dance, to the sound of a bad fiddle and a little jingling guitar played with a quill, for the amusement of her Majesty, who did not seem enchanted with this exhibition….these men, who were exposing themselves in this absurd manner, were the far-famed Colocotroni, Nikitas, surnamed the Turkophagos, or Turk-eater, Makryani, Vasso of Montenegro, Kota Botzaris,, and others equally celebrated…….this was merely the dance of the Albanians, a totally distinct race of men from the Greeks. (Blackwood’s Magazine, XLIII)
Athens, twenty-five years ago, was only an Albanian village. The Albanians formed, and still form, almost the whole of the population of Attica; and within three leagues of the capital, villages are to be found where Greek is hardly understood. Athens has been rapidly peopled with men of all kinds and nations..........Albanians form about one-fourth of the population of the country; they are in majority in Attica, in Arcadia, and in Hydra..…..(Edmond About, Greece and the Greeks of the Present Day)
Reflections on the East Roman Empire:
Until 1821, Greeks knew that there had once been a Christian empire with its capital at Constantinople, but they did not think of it as a Greek empire, and they certainly didn’t call it the Byzantine Empire. (Katerina Zacharia, Hellenisms)
Philhellenism; its aim and impact:
Most Greeks did not share Byron’s views and would not have understood his allusions. They did not think of themselves as Greeks at all – and certainly not as Hellenes…but as Christians or Orthodox. (N. Hammond, Greece – Old and New)
…Philhellehism was a sort of social disease, caused by hallucinations and the by the illusion of finding in the present mongrel inhabitants of Morea and Attica the descendants of the ancient Hellenes. Subsequent contact of Greece with Europe has already considerably modified these ideas, as the modern Greek begins to pass for what he is: a semi-barbarian, a not yet cultivated citizen, and already a spoilt savage……Our classical recollections will have been proved a fallacy…only because they inhiabit a soil where the Parthenon was built. (Baron Augustus Jochmus, The Syrian War and the Decline of the Ottoman Empire)
It is certainly unlikely that before the infiltration of European Philhellenism the inhabitants of Kastri knew (or cared much, for that matter) that they were indeed the inhabitants of Delphi. (Stathis Gourgouris, Dream Nation)
The foundations of Neo-Hellenic Culture
It is significant that many of the nineteenth-century alterations to the Acropolis were carried out at the instigation of Germans, whose contribution to the modern Greeks’ sense of their classical heritage was crucial………….. an attempt was made to Hellenize the Greek collective consciousness, and through katharevousa, to “purify” the modern Greek language. (Katerina Zacharia, Hellenisms)
University of Athens - This, was the first institution of higher learning in the independent kingdom of the Hellenes, was founded by King Otto on the German model. (John Koliopoulos, Greece – The Modern Sequel)
The new sate did not attach itself to the immediate past, as it had been preserved in the popular memory, but rather adapted itself to the convenient image of the ancient Greek past already created in the West. Otto’s father, King Ludwig I of Bavaria, was obsessed with ancient Greece and brought up his children with the aspiration that one day one of them would reign over this glorious land. (Discourses of Collective Identity in Central and Southeast Europe, Texts and Commentaries)
In 1834 it was decided to create Athens the capital of the independent Kingdom of Greece. A German architect, Schaubert, was employed to plan the wide streets, the squares, the boulevards: and so Athens, which in 1834 was a village of five thousand inhabitants, has become in 1936 a city of over four hundred and fifty thousand people. (H. V. Morton, In the steps of St. Paul)
Ancient Sparta has entirely perished….New Sparta is a creation of King Otho, who has formed the useless project of resuscitating all the great names of Greece. It is a governmental and commercial town, composed entirely of shops, barracks, and public offices. (Edmond About, Greece and the Greeks of the Present Day)
THE FAKE GREEKS DONT EVEN KNOW THEIR OWN FAKE HISTORY
Origins of the inhabitants of Modern Greece:
But the revival was only for a time, and, in spite of Greek struggles, at the end of the tenth century Sclavonians formed almost the entire population of Macedonia, Epirus, continental Greece and the Peloponnese…….It was during these centuries, that what remained, if indeed anything remained, of even degenerate Hellenic blood absorbed or was absorbed into that of the Slav……Indeed, the Albanians appear to have done for Greece in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries something like that which that Sclavonians had done in the sixth and seventh….They number about 200,000 souls; and within a greater part of the districts occupied by Albanians at the present day the Greeks have been as completely expelled as the Celtic race in England by the Saxon. Unlike the Greek, for him the bonds of nationality are stronger than those of religion…..to assert that a Greek Christian is a Hellene is as reasonable as to call all Roman Catholics Italians; and to claim a Slav or Albanian as a Hellene because he speaks Greek, is much the same as calling an educated Russian French, or an Irishman English, because they prefer French or English to their own less developed languages. (A Monthly Review – Greece, Spoilt Child of Europe)
Albanian origins of the liberators and leaders of Modern Greece:
The chief authority was conceded to the Albanian shipowners; George Konduriottes of Hydra was elected president of Greece, and Botasses of Spetzas vice-president…..The Greeks are the most prejudived of all Europeans when there is a question of the purity of the Hellenic race, and no people regards education with more favour; yet with all this nationality and pedantry they intrusted their public affairs, in a period of great difficulty, to two men who could not address them in the Greek language. (George Finlay, History of the Greek Revolution)
The castle of Karytena, even in its ruins, has a proud feudal aspect, and was again, early in our century, the stronghold of one of the most famous and notorious of the revolutionary chiefs – Colocotroni. He ranks as a hero in that war……..He is described as of the Albanian type. (J. P Mahhafy, Greek Pictures)
……the liberators of Greece…..Nine or ten of them performed the Albanian national dance, to the sound of a bad fiddle and a little jingling guitar played with a quill, for the amusement of her Majesty, who did not seem enchanted with this exhibition….these men, who were exposing themselves in this absurd manner, were the far-famed Colocotroni, Nikitas, surnamed the Turkophagos, or Turk-eater, Makryani, Vasso of Montenegro, Kota Botzaris,, and others equally celebrated…….this was merely the dance of the Albanians, a totally distinct race of men from the Greeks. (Blackwood’s Magazine, XLIII)
Athens, twenty-five years ago, was only an Albanian village. The Albanians formed, and still form, almost the whole of the population of Attica; and within three leagues of the capital, villages are to be found where Greek is hardly understood. Athens has been rapidly peopled with men of all kinds and nations..........Albanians form about one-fourth of the population of the country; they are in majority in Attica, in Arcadia, and in Hydra..…..(Edmond About, Greece and the Greeks of the Present Day)
Reflections on the East Roman Empire:
Until 1821, Greeks knew that there had once been a Christian empire with its capital at Constantinople, but they did not think of it as a Greek empire, and they certainly didn’t call it the Byzantine Empire. (Katerina Zacharia, Hellenisms)
Philhellenism; its aim and impact:
Most Greeks did not share Byron’s views and would not have understood his allusions. They did not think of themselves as Greeks at all – and certainly not as Hellenes…but as Christians or Orthodox. (N. Hammond, Greece – Old and New)
…Philhellehism was a sort of social disease, caused by hallucinations and the by the illusion of finding in the present mongrel inhabitants of Morea and Attica the descendants of the ancient Hellenes. Subsequent contact of Greece with Europe has already considerably modified these ideas, as the modern Greek begins to pass for what he is: a semi-barbarian, a not yet cultivated citizen, and already a spoilt savage……Our classical recollections will have been proved a fallacy…only because they inhiabit a soil where the Parthenon was built. (Baron Augustus Jochmus, The Syrian War and the Decline of the Ottoman Empire)
It is certainly unlikely that before the infiltration of European Philhellenism the inhabitants of Kastri knew (or cared much, for that matter) that they were indeed the inhabitants of Delphi. (Stathis Gourgouris, Dream Nation)
The foundations of Neo-Hellenic Culture
It is significant that many of the nineteenth-century alterations to the Acropolis were carried out at the instigation of Germans, whose contribution to the modern Greeks’ sense of their classical heritage was crucial………….. an attempt was made to Hellenize the Greek collective consciousness, and through katharevousa, to “purify” the modern Greek language. (Katerina Zacharia, Hellenisms)
University of Athens - This, was the first institution of higher learning in the independent kingdom of the Hellenes, was founded by King Otto on the German model. (John Koliopoulos, Greece – The Modern Sequel)
The new sate did not attach itself to the immediate past, as it had been preserved in the popular memory, but rather adapted itself to the convenient image of the ancient Greek past already created in the West. Otto’s father, King Ludwig I of Bavaria, was obsessed with ancient Greece and brought up his children with the aspiration that one day one of them would reign over this glorious land. (Discourses of Collective Identity in Central and Southeast Europe, Texts and Commentaries)
In 1834 it was decided to create Athens the capital of the independent Kingdom of Greece. A German architect, Schaubert, was employed to plan the wide streets, the squares, the boulevards: and so Athens, which in 1834 was a village of five thousand inhabitants, has become in 1936 a city of over four hundred and fifty thousand people. (H. V. Morton, In the steps of St. Paul)
Ancient Sparta has entirely perished….New Sparta is a creation of King Otho, who has formed the useless project of resuscitating all the great names of Greece. It is a governmental and commercial town, composed entirely of shops, barracks, and public offices. (Edmond About, Greece and the Greeks of the Present Day)
THE FAKE GREEKS DONT EVEN KNOW THEIR OWN FAKE HISTORY
DejaVu
Regular Member
- Messages
- 573
- Reaction score
- 42
- Points
- 0
Greek language.
Well teach us the turkish language while you are at it. Just ask your baba if you need help. Oh here i will start it for you.
Here is your continuity
TURKISH ENGLISH GREEK
det Custom Adeti
Afaroz Excommunicate Aforismos
Aga Land owner Agas
Ahmak Idiot Ahmakis
Ahtapot Octopus Htapodi
Alan Area, ground Alana
Alarga Open sea, distant Alarga
Aman For mercy's sake Aman
Anadolu Anatolia (East in Greek) Anatoli
Ananas Pineapple Ananas
Anason Aniseed Anithos
Anfora Anchor Amphoreus
Angarya Forced labor Angaria
Aptal Stupid Abdalis
Apukurya Carnival Apokria
Arap Negro, bogyman Arapis
Arnavut Albanian Arnautis
Asik Someone in love Asikis
Atlet Athlete Athlitis
Avanak Gullible, stupid Avanakis
Ayran A drink Ariani
Baba - Father - Babas
Baca - Chimney - Batzias
Bacak - Leg, leg of trousers in G.- Batzaki
Bacanak - Brother in law - Batjanakis
Baglama - A string instrument - Baglamas
Bahce - Garden - Bahtses
Bahsis - Tip - Baxisi
Bakir - Copper - Bakiri
Bakkal - Grocer - Bakkalis
Baklava - Baklava - Baklavas
Balta - Ax - Baltas
Bamya - Okra - Bamia
Barbunya - A fish - Barbunia
Barut - Gunpowder - Baruti
Battaniye - Woolen Blanket - Batania
Batakci - Swindler - Bataxis
Bayrak - Flag - Bairaki
Bekar - Batchelor - Bekiaris
Bekri - Drunk - Bekris
Bela - Trouble - Belas
Benzin - Petrol, gas - Benzina
Bereket - Abundance, plenty - Bereket
Beton - Concrete - Beton
Bey - Mr. - Beis
Bezelye - Pea - Bizeli
Biber - Pepper - Piperi
Biftek - Steak - Bifteki
Bodrum - Cellar, dungeon - Boudroumi
Bomba - Bomb - Bomba
Bostan - Vegetable field, garden - Bostani
Bora - Storm - Bora
Boya - Paint - Bogia
Borek - Pastry, pie - Boureki
Bre - Hi, you - Vre
Budala - Idiot - Boudalas
Bulgur - Boiled wheat - Bligouri
But - Thigh - Bouti
Buz - Ice, very cold - Bouzi
Buzuki - Bouzouki - Bouzouki
Cacik - A drink with cucumbers- Tzatziki
Caka - Swagger, vanity - Tsaka
Cam - Window pane - Tzami
Cami - Mosque - Tzami
Cambaz - Acrobat, dealer in G.- Tzambazis
Cenabet - Crabbed person - Tzanabetis
Cep - Pocket - Tsepi
Cereme - Fine or cost of damage- Tzeremes
Cezve - Coffee Pot - Tzesves
Ciger - Liver, lungs - Tziyeri
Cimbiz - Tweezers - Tsimpida
Cuce - Dwarf - Tsutzes
Cadir - Tent - Tsiantiri
Cakirkeyif - Slightly drunk - Tsakir-kefi
Cali - Thorny plant - Tsiali
Calim - Flexibility, show off - Tsalimi
Cam - Pine tree - Tsami
Canak - Shallow bowl - Tsanaki
Canta - Handbag - Tsanta
Capacul - Untidy - Tsapatulis
Capari - Weight anchor - Tsapari
Capkin - Seducer, coquettish - Tsahpinis
Capraz - Crossed - Tsaprazi
Cardak - Hut of dried branches - Tsardaki
Carsi - Market - Charsi
Carik - Rustic shoe - Tsarouhi
Catal - Fork - Tsatala
Catra Patra - Stumbling speech - Tsatra patra
Cavus- Sergeant - Tsausis
Cay - Tea - Tsai
Celebi - Pleasant man, mentor - Tselebis
Cember - Circle - Tsemperi
Cengel - Hook - Tsingeli
Ciklet - Chewing gum - Tsikla
Ciftetelli- A dance - siftetelli
Ciftlik - Large country estate - Tsifliki
Cifit - Tight in money - Tsifoutis
Cimento - Cement - Tsimento
Cinko - Zinc - Tsingos
Ciftlik - Big farm, property - Tsifliki
Cirak - Apprentice - Tsiraki
Cipura- A fish - Tsipura
Ciroz - A fish - Tsiros
Coban - Shepherd - Tsobanis
Corap - Woolen sock- Tsurapis
Corba - soup - Tsorbas
Corek - Large bun - Tsoureki
Cotra - File fish - Tsotra
Ancient GREEK and Turkish are same? Go fool somebody else who dont know your fake identity.
Well teach us the turkish language while you are at it. Just ask your baba if you need help. Oh here i will start it for you.
Here is your continuity
TURKISH ENGLISH GREEK
det Custom Adeti
Afaroz Excommunicate Aforismos
Aga Land owner Agas
Ahmak Idiot Ahmakis
Ahtapot Octopus Htapodi
Alan Area, ground Alana
Alarga Open sea, distant Alarga
Aman For mercy's sake Aman
Anadolu Anatolia (East in Greek) Anatoli
Ananas Pineapple Ananas
Anason Aniseed Anithos
Anfora Anchor Amphoreus
Angarya Forced labor Angaria
Aptal Stupid Abdalis
Apukurya Carnival Apokria
Arap Negro, bogyman Arapis
Arnavut Albanian Arnautis
Asik Someone in love Asikis
Atlet Athlete Athlitis
Avanak Gullible, stupid Avanakis
Ayran A drink Ariani
Baba - Father - Babas
Baca - Chimney - Batzias
Bacak - Leg, leg of trousers in G.- Batzaki
Bacanak - Brother in law - Batjanakis
Baglama - A string instrument - Baglamas
Bahce - Garden - Bahtses
Bahsis - Tip - Baxisi
Bakir - Copper - Bakiri
Bakkal - Grocer - Bakkalis
Baklava - Baklava - Baklavas
Balta - Ax - Baltas
Bamya - Okra - Bamia
Barbunya - A fish - Barbunia
Barut - Gunpowder - Baruti
Battaniye - Woolen Blanket - Batania
Batakci - Swindler - Bataxis
Bayrak - Flag - Bairaki
Bekar - Batchelor - Bekiaris
Bekri - Drunk - Bekris
Bela - Trouble - Belas
Benzin - Petrol, gas - Benzina
Bereket - Abundance, plenty - Bereket
Beton - Concrete - Beton
Bey - Mr. - Beis
Bezelye - Pea - Bizeli
Biber - Pepper - Piperi
Biftek - Steak - Bifteki
Bodrum - Cellar, dungeon - Boudroumi
Bomba - Bomb - Bomba
Bostan - Vegetable field, garden - Bostani
Bora - Storm - Bora
Boya - Paint - Bogia
Borek - Pastry, pie - Boureki
Bre - Hi, you - Vre
Budala - Idiot - Boudalas
Bulgur - Boiled wheat - Bligouri
But - Thigh - Bouti
Buz - Ice, very cold - Bouzi
Buzuki - Bouzouki - Bouzouki
Cacik - A drink with cucumbers- Tzatziki
Caka - Swagger, vanity - Tsaka
Cam - Window pane - Tzami
Cami - Mosque - Tzami
Cambaz - Acrobat, dealer in G.- Tzambazis
Cenabet - Crabbed person - Tzanabetis
Cep - Pocket - Tsepi
Cereme - Fine or cost of damage- Tzeremes
Cezve - Coffee Pot - Tzesves
Ciger - Liver, lungs - Tziyeri
Cimbiz - Tweezers - Tsimpida
Cuce - Dwarf - Tsutzes
Cadir - Tent - Tsiantiri
Cakirkeyif - Slightly drunk - Tsakir-kefi
Cali - Thorny plant - Tsiali
Calim - Flexibility, show off - Tsalimi
Cam - Pine tree - Tsami
Canak - Shallow bowl - Tsanaki
Canta - Handbag - Tsanta
Capacul - Untidy - Tsapatulis
Capari - Weight anchor - Tsapari
Capkin - Seducer, coquettish - Tsahpinis
Capraz - Crossed - Tsaprazi
Cardak - Hut of dried branches - Tsardaki
Carsi - Market - Charsi
Carik - Rustic shoe - Tsarouhi
Catal - Fork - Tsatala
Catra Patra - Stumbling speech - Tsatra patra
Cavus- Sergeant - Tsausis
Cay - Tea - Tsai
Celebi - Pleasant man, mentor - Tselebis
Cember - Circle - Tsemperi
Cengel - Hook - Tsingeli
Ciklet - Chewing gum - Tsikla
Ciftetelli- A dance - siftetelli
Ciftlik - Large country estate - Tsifliki
Cifit - Tight in money - Tsifoutis
Cimento - Cement - Tsimento
Cinko - Zinc - Tsingos
Ciftlik - Big farm, property - Tsifliki
Cirak - Apprentice - Tsiraki
Cipura- A fish - Tsipura
Ciroz - A fish - Tsiros
Coban - Shepherd - Tsobanis
Corap - Woolen sock- Tsurapis
Corba - soup - Tsorbas
Corek - Large bun - Tsoureki
Cotra - File fish - Tsotra
Ancient GREEK and Turkish are same? Go fool somebody else who dont know your fake identity.
DejaVu
Regular Member
- Messages
- 573
- Reaction score
- 42
- Points
- 0
http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/Forms/pgArchiveMain.aspx
PDF document in Turkish state archives web site.
It includes a total of 153 reported incidents done by Greeks in Macedonia between the years 1850 to 1913.
All of them are from Ottoman Empire archives. I checked some of them. It includes all kinds of oppression, beatings, religious conversion by force, rape and murders on Macedonians, Turks, Vlachs, Pomaks, Jews, Albanians etc. and protestant Greek community.
It seems like they tried to convert Macedonians by using methods of terrorism, to speak Greek language, be the member of Greek orthodox patriarch and/or Greeks. There are testimonies and statements of the victims and detailed reports.
You can even write a book with this document because it contains evidences with witness statements.
These are some of the headlines;
Quote: Florina'nın Vesetran nahiyesindeki kilisenin Rum Patrikhanesi'ne
ait olduguna dâir Bulgar halka bir belge imzalattırmak amacıyla baskı
yapan nahiye müdürünün hareketinin uygun olmadıgı ve kendisinin
uyarıldıgı, otuz kadar Rum eskiyasının, Noska nahiyesine baglı Prekopan
köyünde biri Bulgar papazı olmak üzere iki kisiyi katlettikleri ve civar
köylerdeki Bulgar ahalinin Rum Patrikhanesi'ne geçmeleri hususunda
baskı yaptıkları.
4 Ekim 1904
Florina'nın Vesetran nahiyesindeki kilisenin Rum Patrikhanesi'ne
ait olduguna dâir Bulgar halka bir belge imzalattırmak amacıyla baskı
yapan nahiye müdürünün hareketinin uygun olmadıgı ve kendisinin
uyarıldıgı, otuz kadar Rum eskiyasının, Noska nahiyesine baglı Prekopan
köyünde biri Bulgar papazı olmak üzere iki kisiyi katlettikleri ve civar
köylerdeki Bulgar ahalinin Rum Patrikhanesi'ne geçmeleri hususunda
baskı yaptıkları.
4 Ekim 1904
It mentions about one Greek individual in Florina-Vesetran, forcing local people of Bulgarian patriarchy to sign false papers about a church belonging to the Greek patriarchy and he organize a Greek gangs of 30 men to force the inhabitants of a village named Prekopan to be the member of Greek patriarchy. This Greek gang also murders 2 men, one being a Bulgarian patriarchy cleric. October 4th, 1904
Quote: Florina'da ahalisi Makedon olan Zehlince köyünü basan silahlı Rum eskiyasının on kisiyi katledip, altı kisiyi de yaralayarak kaçtıkları.
29 Kasım 1904
Florina'da ahalisi Makedon olan Zehlince köyünü basan silahlı Rum eskiyasının on kisiyi katledip, altı kisiyi de yaralayarak kaçtıkları.
29 Kasım 1904
Armed Greek gangs comes to the village named Zehlince in Florina while local Macedonian inhabitants doing wedding ceremony and murders 10 people, leaving 6 injured. November, 29th 1904
Quote: Altmıs-yetmis kisilik bir Rum eskiya çetesinin Kesriye civarındaki
Osince köyü Makedon papazını yaraladıkları, Drenova köyü kilisesinde bulunan kitaplar ile diger bazı evrakı yaktıkları.
2 Agustos 1905
Altmıs-yetmis kisilik bir Rum eskiya çetesinin Kesriye civarındaki
Osince köyü Makedon papazını yaraladıkları, Drenova köyü kilisesinde bulunan kitaplar ile diger bazı evrakı yaktıkları.
2 Agustos 1905
60-70 armed Greek gangs injures a Macedonian cleric around the village of Osince and same gang goes to the village of Drenova and burns lots of books and papers inside a church. August 2nd, 1905...
Quote: Yetmis kisilik bir Rum eskiya çetesinin, ahalisi Ulah olan Görice'nin Plas kulübeleri köyünü muhasara ederek kiliseye girdikleri, Ulah lisanıyla yazılı kitapları yaktıkları, halkı kiliselerde Ulahça ayin yapmamaları ve Rum olduklarını kabul etmeleri yolunda tehdit ettikleri, sonra da yanlarına iki kisi ile bir miktar hayvan ve malzeme alarak kaçtıklarının bildirildigi. Rumların sürekli baskı ve saldırılarına karsı tedbirler alınması ve bu nedenle köylerinde bir askeri müfreze bulundurulması hakkında köy ahalisinin arzuhali.
5 Agustos 1905
Yetmis kisilik bir Rum eskiya çetesinin, ahalisi Ulah olan Görice'nin Plas kulübeleri köyünü muhasara ederek kiliseye girdikleri, Ulah lisanıyla yazılı kitapları yaktıkları, halkı kiliselerde Ulahça ayin yapmamaları ve Rum olduklarını kabul etmeleri yolunda tehdit ettikleri, sonra da yanlarına iki kisi ile bir miktar hayvan ve malzeme alarak kaçtıklarının bildirildigi. Rumların sürekli baskı ve saldırılarına karsı tedbirler alınması ve bu nedenle köylerinde bir askeri müfreze bulundurulması hakkında köy ahalisinin arzuhali.
5 Agustos 1905
Greek gang with 70 men goes to the church in a village named Gorice-Plas where mostly Vlach people lives and gathers everyone in the village at the church. They forcing them to quit praying in Vlach language and speaking Greek only. They threatens Vlachs that if they don't accept Greek identity and continue to use Vlach language, they will kill them. After the incident, they take few animal, some food and 2 men as a hostage and leaves the village. Local villagers demands Turkish government to build a local police station with soldiers in the village to protect them against never-ending oppression of Greek gangs. August 5th, 1905
PDF document in Turkish state archives web site.
It includes a total of 153 reported incidents done by Greeks in Macedonia between the years 1850 to 1913.
All of them are from Ottoman Empire archives. I checked some of them. It includes all kinds of oppression, beatings, religious conversion by force, rape and murders on Macedonians, Turks, Vlachs, Pomaks, Jews, Albanians etc. and protestant Greek community.
It seems like they tried to convert Macedonians by using methods of terrorism, to speak Greek language, be the member of Greek orthodox patriarch and/or Greeks. There are testimonies and statements of the victims and detailed reports.
You can even write a book with this document because it contains evidences with witness statements.
These are some of the headlines;
Quote: Florina'nın Vesetran nahiyesindeki kilisenin Rum Patrikhanesi'ne
ait olduguna dâir Bulgar halka bir belge imzalattırmak amacıyla baskı
yapan nahiye müdürünün hareketinin uygun olmadıgı ve kendisinin
uyarıldıgı, otuz kadar Rum eskiyasının, Noska nahiyesine baglı Prekopan
köyünde biri Bulgar papazı olmak üzere iki kisiyi katlettikleri ve civar
köylerdeki Bulgar ahalinin Rum Patrikhanesi'ne geçmeleri hususunda
baskı yaptıkları.
4 Ekim 1904
Florina'nın Vesetran nahiyesindeki kilisenin Rum Patrikhanesi'ne
ait olduguna dâir Bulgar halka bir belge imzalattırmak amacıyla baskı
yapan nahiye müdürünün hareketinin uygun olmadıgı ve kendisinin
uyarıldıgı, otuz kadar Rum eskiyasının, Noska nahiyesine baglı Prekopan
köyünde biri Bulgar papazı olmak üzere iki kisiyi katlettikleri ve civar
köylerdeki Bulgar ahalinin Rum Patrikhanesi'ne geçmeleri hususunda
baskı yaptıkları.
4 Ekim 1904
It mentions about one Greek individual in Florina-Vesetran, forcing local people of Bulgarian patriarchy to sign false papers about a church belonging to the Greek patriarchy and he organize a Greek gangs of 30 men to force the inhabitants of a village named Prekopan to be the member of Greek patriarchy. This Greek gang also murders 2 men, one being a Bulgarian patriarchy cleric. October 4th, 1904
Quote: Florina'da ahalisi Makedon olan Zehlince köyünü basan silahlı Rum eskiyasının on kisiyi katledip, altı kisiyi de yaralayarak kaçtıkları.
29 Kasım 1904
Florina'da ahalisi Makedon olan Zehlince köyünü basan silahlı Rum eskiyasının on kisiyi katledip, altı kisiyi de yaralayarak kaçtıkları.
29 Kasım 1904
Armed Greek gangs comes to the village named Zehlince in Florina while local Macedonian inhabitants doing wedding ceremony and murders 10 people, leaving 6 injured. November, 29th 1904
Quote: Altmıs-yetmis kisilik bir Rum eskiya çetesinin Kesriye civarındaki
Osince köyü Makedon papazını yaraladıkları, Drenova köyü kilisesinde bulunan kitaplar ile diger bazı evrakı yaktıkları.
2 Agustos 1905
Altmıs-yetmis kisilik bir Rum eskiya çetesinin Kesriye civarındaki
Osince köyü Makedon papazını yaraladıkları, Drenova köyü kilisesinde bulunan kitaplar ile diger bazı evrakı yaktıkları.
2 Agustos 1905
60-70 armed Greek gangs injures a Macedonian cleric around the village of Osince and same gang goes to the village of Drenova and burns lots of books and papers inside a church. August 2nd, 1905...
Quote: Yetmis kisilik bir Rum eskiya çetesinin, ahalisi Ulah olan Görice'nin Plas kulübeleri köyünü muhasara ederek kiliseye girdikleri, Ulah lisanıyla yazılı kitapları yaktıkları, halkı kiliselerde Ulahça ayin yapmamaları ve Rum olduklarını kabul etmeleri yolunda tehdit ettikleri, sonra da yanlarına iki kisi ile bir miktar hayvan ve malzeme alarak kaçtıklarının bildirildigi. Rumların sürekli baskı ve saldırılarına karsı tedbirler alınması ve bu nedenle köylerinde bir askeri müfreze bulundurulması hakkında köy ahalisinin arzuhali.
5 Agustos 1905
Yetmis kisilik bir Rum eskiya çetesinin, ahalisi Ulah olan Görice'nin Plas kulübeleri köyünü muhasara ederek kiliseye girdikleri, Ulah lisanıyla yazılı kitapları yaktıkları, halkı kiliselerde Ulahça ayin yapmamaları ve Rum olduklarını kabul etmeleri yolunda tehdit ettikleri, sonra da yanlarına iki kisi ile bir miktar hayvan ve malzeme alarak kaçtıklarının bildirildigi. Rumların sürekli baskı ve saldırılarına karsı tedbirler alınması ve bu nedenle köylerinde bir askeri müfreze bulundurulması hakkında köy ahalisinin arzuhali.
5 Agustos 1905
Greek gang with 70 men goes to the church in a village named Gorice-Plas where mostly Vlach people lives and gathers everyone in the village at the church. They forcing them to quit praying in Vlach language and speaking Greek only. They threatens Vlachs that if they don't accept Greek identity and continue to use Vlach language, they will kill them. After the incident, they take few animal, some food and 2 men as a hostage and leaves the village. Local villagers demands Turkish government to build a local police station with soldiers in the village to protect them against never-ending oppression of Greek gangs. August 5th, 1905
DejaVu
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Modern Greeks always talk proudly about their so-called "Makedonias Agonas", a war they state was to liberate the 'Greek' Macedonians and 'Greek' Macedonia from Turkish rule. In reality, the so-called "Makedonias Agonas" was nothing more then a war of genocide against the indigenous Macedonian population with the aim of annexing Aegean Macedonia to modern Greece. Ironically, the biggest allies of the modern Greeks in this endeavor besides the English were the Turks. Below is a small collection of photographs from that period which document Turko-Greek collaboration.
The infamous photo of Greek Bishop Karavangelis blessing the Turkish guns prior to their use against Macedonians.
Another photo of Karavangelis and his Turkish allies.
Greeks and their Turkish allies, notice both flags in the background
Greek bandits posing with their Turkish Allies
More Greek bandits posing with their Turkish Allies
Greek bandit posing with Turkish Allie
Another Greek posing with Turkish Allies
Another Greek posing with Turkish Allies
The infamous photo of Greek Bishop Karavangelis blessing the Turkish guns prior to their use against Macedonians.
Another photo of Karavangelis and his Turkish allies.
Greeks and their Turkish allies, notice both flags in the background
Greek bandits posing with their Turkish Allies
More Greek bandits posing with their Turkish Allies
Greek bandit posing with Turkish Allie
Another Greek posing with Turkish Allies
Another Greek posing with Turkish Allies
DejaVu
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Here's an article from Time magazine date March 25 1935
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...8601-1,00.html
Farewell to Venizelos
The back door of Greece opens on the mountainous Balkan hinterland, its front door on the Mediterranean. By the sea, greatness as well as grief have come to Greece. Three weeks ago from the sea, from Greece's greatest island. Crete, came Revolution, led by that greatest of modern Greeks, sly, old Eleutherios Venizelos, against the "Balkan policy" and the monarchist intrigues of Premier Panayoti Tsaldaris.
Old Venizelos had planned merely a show of force and a quick coup d'état. Instinctively he seized first the key war boats in Greece's Navy. But the thing turned into a civil war on land (TIME, March 18). Seventy thousand loyalists and some airplanes crumpled the rebel army of 30,000 planeless Greeks from the islands, from Macedonia and Thrace. Venizelos had no stomach for civil war. For all the shooting, the revolt ended with only 100 dead on both sides. The Government, however, promised to execute three times as many. Last week Venizelos, his second wife and a score of the high command fled from Crete to the nearby Italian island of Kasos, then on to the bigger Italian island of Rhodes off the coast of Turkey. Though he was still alive and safe, the world was last week writing Venizelos' political obituary. In Athens the crowd cheered winning General Kondylis and Premier Tsaldaris to the echo. They had won a great victory, but for what?
As recently as 1821 Greece was a servile Turkish province. It was largely with Russian backing that a few Greek Christians won freedom for the barren lower tip of the Greek peninsula. For the rest of the 19th Century the Greeks acquired a shameful record of defeat in battle. They acquired more territory only through the benevolence of the Great Powers, chiefly Britain. Then green currants from the Ionian Islands were the main economic support of the dismal little nation.
Venizelos changed all that. Born on Crete, equipped with an Athens law degree, he soon developed an extraordinary flair for leadership, a marvelous sense of situation, a nearly perfect aim with a revolver and one of the greatest poker faces in Europe. Crete was then still Turkish. Venizelos rapidly led two revolts, won Cretan autonomy, the first step toward union with Greece. The Greek Crown sent a chuckleheaded prince as Commissioner to Crete. With another revolt, Venizelos kicked him out because the prince looked on Cretans as a subject race. His local fame as a Cretan established. Venizelos moved to Athens and proceeded to take charge of all Greece.
Starting as an ordinary member of the Greek Assembly, Venizelos brought into being a national assembly to revise the Constitution, from which he emerged as Premier. After reorganizing the Army and Navy, he sized up Greek military pretensions as a hollow bluff, saw that Greece's future depended on the good will of the Powers, proceeded to play the future that way. He broke with previous Greek policy by joining the Balkan League of Bulgaria and Serbia and ganging on Turkey in the first Balkan War. This time Greece won. In the squabble over the spoils, alert Venizelos formed another alliance with Serbia and ganged on Bulgaria. Spoils: most of Macedonia and the Aegean Islands, the most productive lands in the realm and 100% more people.
When the World War broke, Venizelos brought up against the Danish stubbornness of Greece's Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg King Constantine I, who favored Germany. He hypocritically maintained "a very benevolent neutrality" toward the Allies. Pro-ally Venizelos was anathematized by an Archbishop of the Greek Church:
"Against this traitor Venizelos we have invoked the following injuries: the ulcers of Job, the whale of Jonah, the leprosy of Naaman, the bite of Death, the shivering of the dying, the thunderbolt of Hell, and the malediction of God and man. We shall call for the same injuries upon those who at the coming elections shall vote for the Traitor Venizelos, and we shall further pray for their hands to wither and for them to become deaf and blind."
Unimpressed, Venizelos seceded from the kingdom, forced Constantine to abdicate in favor of his son and declared war against the Central Powers. Though Greece did not do much in war, Venizelos had earned a place at the Peace Conference table. His "enticing, almost ethereal, charm," and the fact that he knew more about the map of Europe than anyone else, did the rest. Spoils: most of Thrace and part of Asiatic Turkey.
At home, however, the Greeks were losing part of Venizelos' plunder to a resuscitated Turkey under Mustapha Kemal Pasha. When Venizelos rushed home the Greek electorate, with one of the world's worst non sequiturs, repudiated Venizelos and called back King Constantine. Once again Venizelos turned his hand to revolution. Back as Prime Minister, he deposed Constantine's son George and resigned just before Greece turned Republic in 1924.
Greece had improved its economic situation (tobacco, wine, textiles, leather goods) but it was still "the poorest nation in Europe.'' Partial cause of this was the unprecedented importation of 1,400,000 indigent Greeks from Turkey and Bulgaria in exchange for deported Turks and Bulgars. Without Venizelos, Greece entered a typical Balkan shambles of dictatorships and coups d'état, with the royalists always gaining. The old split between the Balkan interests of the repopulated peninsula and the world-trading Mediterranean interests of the islands began to widen, complicated by the unreconciled Macedonians of the north. Finally, in 1928, Venizelos cashed in his popularity for one more Premiership, made alliances with Mussolini and Mustapha Kemal, reasserted the Mediterranean policy of a true island Greek, and got out.
Last year he was struck with dismay when his successor, Premier Tsaldaris, concluded the Balkan Pact with Yugoslavia, Rumania and Turkey. Venizelos saw that Yugoslavia was bound to get into trouble with Italy and Albania, that Greece might have to fight to pull Yugoslavia's chestnuts out of the fire. He objected also to the fact that Italy had not been consulted. Himself nobody's cat's-paw, he could not help feeling that no Greek but himself could ever do anything right.
All his life Venizelos had worked to consolidate Greeks in Greece. The desperate adventure this month of his last revolution between the peninsula on the one hand, the islands and Macedonia on the other, marked the first time he had ever fought to split Greeks. And for the first time he failed. Once more ''the shivering of the dying and the malediction of man'' fell upon Venizelos. The 71-year-old man, who fled last week to a swank Italian hotel in Rhodes with a private beach, groaned, "I am tired by the hardships and disappointments of the last few days."
Last week the Greek Government sealed up seven Venizelos houses, including the great Athens mansion-fort with its $5,000,000 (reputed) library, preparatory to confiscating them. As Mussolini turned a cold shoulder to all Greek attempts to extradite the person of the rebel leader, old Venizelos prepared to end his days in exile with his second wife* and the two sons of his first wife, a beautiful Cretan girl dead these 40 years. He smiled sourly when he heard that his opponent. General Kondylis. who was once his ally and fellow-conspirator, had said, "When conditions become normal, the people will be given the opportunity to decide whether to restore the monarchy."
Said Venizelos, who had doubled the area of Greece, deposed its Kings and given it a place in world politics far out of proportion to its real importance: "All my life with all my heart I wanted the union of Crete and Greece. I wanted it to be sustained by profound mutual affection. I swear that was my only desire. . . . Greece will never see me again."
* His second wife is the daughter of the late Greek-British textile exporter, John Schilizzi, who left her $15,000,000 in 1908.
Venizelos was just a British spy like all the other high Greek officers and patriarchy at that time. They were under the control of British and everything they did was planned by them already, including the population exchange and invasion of Anatolia. After we kicked them out from Anatolia at 1922, most of his colleagues escaped to the England, became British citizen and lived a wealthy life.
They were responsible from the death of ~500.000 people and forced expulsion of 2 million more.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...8601-1,00.html
Farewell to Venizelos
The back door of Greece opens on the mountainous Balkan hinterland, its front door on the Mediterranean. By the sea, greatness as well as grief have come to Greece. Three weeks ago from the sea, from Greece's greatest island. Crete, came Revolution, led by that greatest of modern Greeks, sly, old Eleutherios Venizelos, against the "Balkan policy" and the monarchist intrigues of Premier Panayoti Tsaldaris.
Old Venizelos had planned merely a show of force and a quick coup d'état. Instinctively he seized first the key war boats in Greece's Navy. But the thing turned into a civil war on land (TIME, March 18). Seventy thousand loyalists and some airplanes crumpled the rebel army of 30,000 planeless Greeks from the islands, from Macedonia and Thrace. Venizelos had no stomach for civil war. For all the shooting, the revolt ended with only 100 dead on both sides. The Government, however, promised to execute three times as many. Last week Venizelos, his second wife and a score of the high command fled from Crete to the nearby Italian island of Kasos, then on to the bigger Italian island of Rhodes off the coast of Turkey. Though he was still alive and safe, the world was last week writing Venizelos' political obituary. In Athens the crowd cheered winning General Kondylis and Premier Tsaldaris to the echo. They had won a great victory, but for what?
As recently as 1821 Greece was a servile Turkish province. It was largely with Russian backing that a few Greek Christians won freedom for the barren lower tip of the Greek peninsula. For the rest of the 19th Century the Greeks acquired a shameful record of defeat in battle. They acquired more territory only through the benevolence of the Great Powers, chiefly Britain. Then green currants from the Ionian Islands were the main economic support of the dismal little nation.
Venizelos changed all that. Born on Crete, equipped with an Athens law degree, he soon developed an extraordinary flair for leadership, a marvelous sense of situation, a nearly perfect aim with a revolver and one of the greatest poker faces in Europe. Crete was then still Turkish. Venizelos rapidly led two revolts, won Cretan autonomy, the first step toward union with Greece. The Greek Crown sent a chuckleheaded prince as Commissioner to Crete. With another revolt, Venizelos kicked him out because the prince looked on Cretans as a subject race. His local fame as a Cretan established. Venizelos moved to Athens and proceeded to take charge of all Greece.
Starting as an ordinary member of the Greek Assembly, Venizelos brought into being a national assembly to revise the Constitution, from which he emerged as Premier. After reorganizing the Army and Navy, he sized up Greek military pretensions as a hollow bluff, saw that Greece's future depended on the good will of the Powers, proceeded to play the future that way. He broke with previous Greek policy by joining the Balkan League of Bulgaria and Serbia and ganging on Turkey in the first Balkan War. This time Greece won. In the squabble over the spoils, alert Venizelos formed another alliance with Serbia and ganged on Bulgaria. Spoils: most of Macedonia and the Aegean Islands, the most productive lands in the realm and 100% more people.
When the World War broke, Venizelos brought up against the Danish stubbornness of Greece's Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg King Constantine I, who favored Germany. He hypocritically maintained "a very benevolent neutrality" toward the Allies. Pro-ally Venizelos was anathematized by an Archbishop of the Greek Church:
"Against this traitor Venizelos we have invoked the following injuries: the ulcers of Job, the whale of Jonah, the leprosy of Naaman, the bite of Death, the shivering of the dying, the thunderbolt of Hell, and the malediction of God and man. We shall call for the same injuries upon those who at the coming elections shall vote for the Traitor Venizelos, and we shall further pray for their hands to wither and for them to become deaf and blind."
Unimpressed, Venizelos seceded from the kingdom, forced Constantine to abdicate in favor of his son and declared war against the Central Powers. Though Greece did not do much in war, Venizelos had earned a place at the Peace Conference table. His "enticing, almost ethereal, charm," and the fact that he knew more about the map of Europe than anyone else, did the rest. Spoils: most of Thrace and part of Asiatic Turkey.
At home, however, the Greeks were losing part of Venizelos' plunder to a resuscitated Turkey under Mustapha Kemal Pasha. When Venizelos rushed home the Greek electorate, with one of the world's worst non sequiturs, repudiated Venizelos and called back King Constantine. Once again Venizelos turned his hand to revolution. Back as Prime Minister, he deposed Constantine's son George and resigned just before Greece turned Republic in 1924.
Greece had improved its economic situation (tobacco, wine, textiles, leather goods) but it was still "the poorest nation in Europe.'' Partial cause of this was the unprecedented importation of 1,400,000 indigent Greeks from Turkey and Bulgaria in exchange for deported Turks and Bulgars. Without Venizelos, Greece entered a typical Balkan shambles of dictatorships and coups d'état, with the royalists always gaining. The old split between the Balkan interests of the repopulated peninsula and the world-trading Mediterranean interests of the islands began to widen, complicated by the unreconciled Macedonians of the north. Finally, in 1928, Venizelos cashed in his popularity for one more Premiership, made alliances with Mussolini and Mustapha Kemal, reasserted the Mediterranean policy of a true island Greek, and got out.
Last year he was struck with dismay when his successor, Premier Tsaldaris, concluded the Balkan Pact with Yugoslavia, Rumania and Turkey. Venizelos saw that Yugoslavia was bound to get into trouble with Italy and Albania, that Greece might have to fight to pull Yugoslavia's chestnuts out of the fire. He objected also to the fact that Italy had not been consulted. Himself nobody's cat's-paw, he could not help feeling that no Greek but himself could ever do anything right.
All his life Venizelos had worked to consolidate Greeks in Greece. The desperate adventure this month of his last revolution between the peninsula on the one hand, the islands and Macedonia on the other, marked the first time he had ever fought to split Greeks. And for the first time he failed. Once more ''the shivering of the dying and the malediction of man'' fell upon Venizelos. The 71-year-old man, who fled last week to a swank Italian hotel in Rhodes with a private beach, groaned, "I am tired by the hardships and disappointments of the last few days."
Last week the Greek Government sealed up seven Venizelos houses, including the great Athens mansion-fort with its $5,000,000 (reputed) library, preparatory to confiscating them. As Mussolini turned a cold shoulder to all Greek attempts to extradite the person of the rebel leader, old Venizelos prepared to end his days in exile with his second wife* and the two sons of his first wife, a beautiful Cretan girl dead these 40 years. He smiled sourly when he heard that his opponent. General Kondylis. who was once his ally and fellow-conspirator, had said, "When conditions become normal, the people will be given the opportunity to decide whether to restore the monarchy."
Said Venizelos, who had doubled the area of Greece, deposed its Kings and given it a place in world politics far out of proportion to its real importance: "All my life with all my heart I wanted the union of Crete and Greece. I wanted it to be sustained by profound mutual affection. I swear that was my only desire. . . . Greece will never see me again."
* His second wife is the daughter of the late Greek-British textile exporter, John Schilizzi, who left her $15,000,000 in 1908.
Venizelos was just a British spy like all the other high Greek officers and patriarchy at that time. They were under the control of British and everything they did was planned by them already, including the population exchange and invasion of Anatolia. After we kicked them out from Anatolia at 1922, most of his colleagues escaped to the England, became British citizen and lived a wealthy life.
They were responsible from the death of ~500.000 people and forced expulsion of 2 million more.
DejaVu
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THE MACEDONIAN AGITATION
The Times, London, April 12, 1901, pp. 3-4
THE MACEDONIAN AGITATION
(From our own correspondent.)
Vienna, April 11.
A correspondent of the news sheet Information has had an interview with M. Sarafof, the president of the Bulgarian Macedonian Committee, who was arrested a few days ago at Sofia. M. Sarafof made an instructive statement. He said that the whole movement had been misunderstood. It must be divided into two periods. During the first period it was under the leadership of men who were in close connection with the Bulgarian court itself and had been employed by several successive Ministries. The latter used the committee and the influence which it had in the country in order to fortify their own position, and to carry out the programmes of their parties. M. Sarafof continued thus: -
“In 1895 we young men were sent to Macedonia to prepare an insurrection, or, at all events, to try and start an outbreak of some kind, if only to show Europe that Prince Ferdinand constituted a powerful factor in the Balkan Peninsula and that his deposition would be a greater danger for the peace of the continent. It was only after these disturbances that the Powers, one after the other, recognized Prince Ferdinand as chief of the new Bulgarian dynasty. This first phase of the Macedonian movement, owing to the fact that it was subordinated to different party interests, acquired no hold on the bulk of the population in Macedonia. We young people have therefore been endeavouring for some years past to separate the Macedonian cause from Bulgarian domestic politics. If the rulers of the Principality now declare that they cannot tolerate us as a State within the State, it shows that we have at least succeeded in emancipating ourselves from the pernicious influence of the Bulgarian government. It is only because we are no longer disposed to sacrifice ourselves for this or that party, and regard the liberation of Macedonia as a question of honour for the entire people, that the Bulgarian Government is persecuting us….
“It is a grievous error to suppose that we seek to acquire Macedonia on behalf of Bulgaria. We Macedonians consider ourselves to be an entirely separate national element, and we are not in the least disposed to allow our country to be seized by Bulgaria, Servia, or Greece. We will, in fact, oppose any such incorporation with all our might. Macedonia must belong to the Macedonians. The misunderstanding has arisen through our residing in Bulgaria. The circumstance of our having prepared a Macedonian insurrection while living in this country led to the conclusion that we were aiming at a union between the two Slav provinces. That is, however, perfectly absurd. If we were to be expelled from Bulgaria and were to settle in Switzerland nobody would suppose that we intended to liberate Macedonia on behalf of Switzerland; we merely go where we find the most favourable opportunities for our revolutionary work….
But, wherever we may be, we wish to keep our movement distinct from the national aspirations of the independent Balkan States. We shall energetically resist any attempt on the part of those States to secure Macedonia for themselves. We have been reproached with wanting to disturb the peace of Europe. That leaves us indifferent. What do we infortunate Slavs care for the peace of Europe! Russia has frequently promised us that she will soon take our cause in hand. Only a short time ago a Russian statesman told me that we should be patient, as whenever Russia was no longer occupied in East Asia she would come forward in favour of the autonomy of Macedonia. My own conviction is, however, that Russian diplomacy will first begin to think of us when it decides to realize its own ideal of the conquest of Constantinople. Its object will than be not the emancipation of Macedonia, but its subjugation. Consequently, my friends and myself are resolved to separate entirely the movement we are prompting from Russia’s Balkan policy. Without in any way wishing to identify our efforts with the policy of Vienna, I am nevertheless of opinion that Austro-Hungarian aspirations are infinitely less dangerous for the autonomy of Macedonia than are those of Russia. The conquest of Macedonia by Austria-Hungary is impossible, owing to the composition of that Monarchy and to the resistance which such a plan would find on the part of all the Balkan peoples…..
“I must, at the same time, clearly state that we neither ask for, nor would accept, any official support of our movement from Austria-Hungary. We will have nothing to do either with official Bulgaria or with official Servia, nor yet with official Austria-Hungary. We are revolutionists, and count only upon one-half of the peoples of Europe. In order to put and end to the misunderstandings among the Slav States of the Balkans concerning the movement in which we are engaged, two of our friends will shortly go to Servia and then proceed further in order to deliver lectures. Macedonia must no longer be a source of dissension among the Balkan countries. Emancipation must form the basis upon which the federation of those countries can be founded.”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pro Armenia, Paris, 25 avril 1901, p. 87
Nouvelles d’Orient
« […]
Boris Sarafov avait fait des déclarations fort importantes à un correspondant de l’Information de Vienne. Elles se résument en quelques points capitaux : 1º Le mouvement macédonien n’est pas un mouvement bulgare ; les Macédoniens constituent une nationalité particulière qui ne veut s’agréger à la Bulgarie, ni à la Serbie, ni à la Grèce ; 2º le malentendu provient de ce que l’action macédonienne avait pour centre Sofia. Expulsés de Bulgarie, les Macédoniens réfugiés en Suisse deviendraient-ils suspects de vouloir annexer leur pays à la République helvétique ; 3º la Russie ne viendrait en aide à la Macédoine que pour réaliser son plan de conquête de Constantinople ; elle ne l’émanciperait pas, mais la subjuguerait. Le mouvement macédonien doit donc être entièrement séparé de toute action russophile ; 4º il ne doit pas subir non plus d’influences austro-hongroises, bien que le danger de la conquête du pays soit de ce côté bien moins imminent que du côté russe ; 5º on reproche aux Macédoniens de mettre en péril la paix européenne : cela les laisse indifférents ; ils ne sont point les gardiens de cette paix précaire et l’Europe n’a qu’à faire exécuter les engagements pris par traité comme c’est son droit et son devoir.
Telles sont les déclarations de Boris Sarafov.
[…] »
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The french text translated using google translate:
Boris Sarafov had made extremely important statements with a correspondent of the Information of Vienna. They are summarized in some most important points: 1º the movement Macedonian is not a Bulgarian movement; the Macedonians constitute a particular nationality which wants to incorporate themselves in Bulgaria, neither in Serbia, nor in Greece; 2º the misunderstanding comes from what the action Macedonian had as a Sofia center. Expelled of Bulgaria, the Macedonians taken refuge in Switzerland would become suspect to want to annex their country with the Swiss Republic; 3º Russia would come to assistance of Macedonia only to carry out its plan of conquest of Constantinople; it does not émanciperait it, but would subjugate it. The movement Macedonian must thus be entirely separated from any Russophile action; 4º it should not be subject to Austro-Hungarians influences either, although the danger of the conquest of the country is on this side much less imminent than on the Russian side; 5º one reproaches the Macedonians for putting in danger European peace: that leaves them indifferent; they are not the guards of this precarious peace and Europe does not have that to make carry out the commitments entered into by treaty as it is its right and its duty. Such are the declarations of Boris Sarafov. The original from The Times:
The Times, London, April 12, 1901, pp. 3-4
THE MACEDONIAN AGITATION
(From our own correspondent.)
Vienna, April 11.
A correspondent of the news sheet Information has had an interview with M. Sarafof, the president of the Bulgarian Macedonian Committee, who was arrested a few days ago at Sofia. M. Sarafof made an instructive statement. He said that the whole movement had been misunderstood. It must be divided into two periods. During the first period it was under the leadership of men who were in close connection with the Bulgarian court itself and had been employed by several successive Ministries. The latter used the committee and the influence which it had in the country in order to fortify their own position, and to carry out the programmes of their parties. M. Sarafof continued thus: -
“In 1895 we young men were sent to Macedonia to prepare an insurrection, or, at all events, to try and start an outbreak of some kind, if only to show Europe that Prince Ferdinand constituted a powerful factor in the Balkan Peninsula and that his deposition would be a greater danger for the peace of the continent. It was only after these disturbances that the Powers, one after the other, recognized Prince Ferdinand as chief of the new Bulgarian dynasty. This first phase of the Macedonian movement, owing to the fact that it was subordinated to different party interests, acquired no hold on the bulk of the population in Macedonia. We young people have therefore been endeavouring for some years past to separate the Macedonian cause from Bulgarian domestic politics. If the rulers of the Principality now declare that they cannot tolerate us as a State within the State, it shows that we have at least succeeded in emancipating ourselves from the pernicious influence of the Bulgarian government. It is only because we are no longer disposed to sacrifice ourselves for this or that party, and regard the liberation of Macedonia as a question of honour for the entire people, that the Bulgarian Government is persecuting us….
“It is a grievous error to suppose that we seek to acquire Macedonia on behalf of Bulgaria. We Macedonians consider ourselves to be an entirely separate national element, and we are not in the least disposed to allow our country to be seized by Bulgaria, Servia, or Greece. We will, in fact, oppose any such incorporation with all our might. Macedonia must belong to the Macedonians. The misunderstanding has arisen through our residing in Bulgaria. The circumstance of our having prepared a Macedonian insurrection while living in this country led to the conclusion that we were aiming at a union between the two Slav provinces. That is, however, perfectly absurd. If we were to be expelled from Bulgaria and were to settle in Switzerland nobody would suppose that we intended to liberate Macedonia on behalf of Switzerland; we merely go where we find the most favourable opportunities for our revolutionary work….
But, wherever we may be, we wish to keep our movement distinct from the national aspirations of the independent Balkan States. We shall energetically resist any attempt on the part of those States to secure Macedonia for themselves. We have been reproached with wanting to disturb the peace of Europe. That leaves us indifferent. What do we infortunate Slavs care for the peace of Europe! Russia has frequently promised us that she will soon take our cause in hand. Only a short time ago a Russian statesman told me that we should be patient, as whenever Russia was no longer occupied in East Asia she would come forward in favour of the autonomy of Macedonia. My own conviction is, however, that Russian diplomacy will first begin to think of us when it decides to realize its own ideal of the conquest of Constantinople. Its object will than be not the emancipation of Macedonia, but its subjugation. Consequently, my friends and myself are resolved to separate entirely the movement we are prompting from Russia’s Balkan policy. Without in any way wishing to identify our efforts with the policy of Vienna, I am nevertheless of opinion that Austro-Hungarian aspirations are infinitely less dangerous for the autonomy of Macedonia than are those of Russia. The conquest of Macedonia by Austria-Hungary is impossible, owing to the composition of that Monarchy and to the resistance which such a plan would find on the part of all the Balkan peoples…..
“I must, at the same time, clearly state that we neither ask for, nor would accept, any official support of our movement from Austria-Hungary. We will have nothing to do either with official Bulgaria or with official Servia, nor yet with official Austria-Hungary. We are revolutionists, and count only upon one-half of the peoples of Europe. In order to put and end to the misunderstandings among the Slav States of the Balkans concerning the movement in which we are engaged, two of our friends will shortly go to Servia and then proceed further in order to deliver lectures. Macedonia must no longer be a source of dissension among the Balkan countries. Emancipation must form the basis upon which the federation of those countries can be founded.”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pro Armenia, Paris, 25 avril 1901, p. 87
Nouvelles d’Orient
« […]
Boris Sarafov avait fait des déclarations fort importantes à un correspondant de l’Information de Vienne. Elles se résument en quelques points capitaux : 1º Le mouvement macédonien n’est pas un mouvement bulgare ; les Macédoniens constituent une nationalité particulière qui ne veut s’agréger à la Bulgarie, ni à la Serbie, ni à la Grèce ; 2º le malentendu provient de ce que l’action macédonienne avait pour centre Sofia. Expulsés de Bulgarie, les Macédoniens réfugiés en Suisse deviendraient-ils suspects de vouloir annexer leur pays à la République helvétique ; 3º la Russie ne viendrait en aide à la Macédoine que pour réaliser son plan de conquête de Constantinople ; elle ne l’émanciperait pas, mais la subjuguerait. Le mouvement macédonien doit donc être entièrement séparé de toute action russophile ; 4º il ne doit pas subir non plus d’influences austro-hongroises, bien que le danger de la conquête du pays soit de ce côté bien moins imminent que du côté russe ; 5º on reproche aux Macédoniens de mettre en péril la paix européenne : cela les laisse indifférents ; ils ne sont point les gardiens de cette paix précaire et l’Europe n’a qu’à faire exécuter les engagements pris par traité comme c’est son droit et son devoir.
Telles sont les déclarations de Boris Sarafov.
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The french text translated using google translate:
Boris Sarafov had made extremely important statements with a correspondent of the Information of Vienna. They are summarized in some most important points: 1º the movement Macedonian is not a Bulgarian movement; the Macedonians constitute a particular nationality which wants to incorporate themselves in Bulgaria, neither in Serbia, nor in Greece; 2º the misunderstanding comes from what the action Macedonian had as a Sofia center. Expelled of Bulgaria, the Macedonians taken refuge in Switzerland would become suspect to want to annex their country with the Swiss Republic; 3º Russia would come to assistance of Macedonia only to carry out its plan of conquest of Constantinople; it does not émanciperait it, but would subjugate it. The movement Macedonian must thus be entirely separated from any Russophile action; 4º it should not be subject to Austro-Hungarians influences either, although the danger of the conquest of the country is on this side much less imminent than on the Russian side; 5º one reproaches the Macedonians for putting in danger European peace: that leaves them indifferent; they are not the guards of this precarious peace and Europe does not have that to make carry out the commitments entered into by treaty as it is its right and its duty. Such are the declarations of Boris Sarafov. The original from The Times: