Map of J2b and it's two major clades

[Yaan]

J2b is not a marker from greek Lydian antiquity settlement. The Lydia's never went to Greece, they where Turks (J2a). J2a is not found in Greece. It's found in the Middle East ( Armenia, turkey, northwest Iran) only the greek island of Crete, and Italy. J2b symbolizes "standard" mainland/peninsula greek J2. It came a LONG time ago from Middle East, stayed a long time in Greece where it diversified and became characteristically Greco-Albanian and then spread to other minor parts of Balkans and Italy. It is Balkans J2,Greco-Albanian J2' not Anatolian J2 (J2a)

There is a lot of J2a in Greece, in all Balkan countries and Italy J2a is more than J2b. Check before ur speak. Also Turks have J2a now because of Bulgarians,Greeks, Armenians,Georgians etc.etc.
Original Turks did not have J2a.

 

[Yaan]

Greeks have from J2b2, J2b1 is found in small % in Balkan Slavs, Hungarians etc. J2b* is not that often and yes they Bulgarian guy Mateev from Veliko Tarnovo Central North

 

[adamo]

Yawn you say that "original Turks" did not have j2a as Cretans and Iranians do.. What exactly is "original" Turks and what did they have?

 

[Yaan]

Yawn you say that "original Turks" did not have j2a as Cretans and Iranians do.. What exactly is "original" Turks and what did they have?

Original Turks are the people that come to Europe and the Middle East in the 14th century they have R1b,R1a,N,L

 

[adamo]

But what about J1, J2' G.... Typical middle eastern genetic markers. Turks cluster genetically with many/most other middle eastern ethnic groups. Turks with haplogroup N like the Finns you suggest..... That seems invalid too me and I doubt the "original" Turks had significantly high levels of haplogroup L although I know haplogroups R1b and r1a can be found in certain middle eastern populations...

 

[BakodiP]

But what about J1, J2' G.... Typical middle eastern genetic markers. Turks cluster genetically with many/most other middle eastern ethnic groups. Turks with haplogroup N like the Finns you suggest..... That seems invalid too me and I doubt the "original" Turks had significantly high levels of haplogroup L although I know haplogroups R1b and r1a can be found in certain middle eastern populations...

He says the the original Turkish, the Turkic ethnic group came from the Central Asian steppes. They conquered the population of Anatolia, and nowaday there is the country of Turkey, but most of its population is not Turkic, but Anatolian, Middle Eastern or from the Balkan. There is a low percentage of Central Asian genetic markers among modern Turkish individuals comparing to Middle Eastern ones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples

 

[adamo]

So how do they represent modern Turks or Turkish genetics if all the L, N , etc. lineages are no longer representative of the modern ANATOLIAN Turkish people? Most real Turks today are J2 or J1 or G with some R1b, there is no male haplogroup N present here

 

[BakodiP]

So how do they represent modern Turks or Turkish genetics if all the L, N , etc. lineages are no longer representative of the modern ANATOLIAN Turkish people? Most real Turks today are J2 or J1 or G with some R1b, there is no male haplogroup N present here

See the difference between Turkish and Turkic. Like a Venn diagramm, the modern Turkish nation and the population of Turkey the big circle and the Turkic ethnic people are a small one inside the big one. Although we call the country Turkey and the people Turkish, they have no genetical connection with the original nomad Turkic invaders who conquered the area.

The meaning of this is that they don't represent it, because they couldn't since they are a minority. Yaan was speaking all along about the Turkic people, not about the Anatolian population.

 

[adamo]

Ohhhh ok sorry my bad maybe I'm stupid

 

[BakodiP]

I can't explain it easier! :S

http://i45.tinypic.com/14sfp3.jpg

 

[adamo]

I understand, I'm referring to the modern Turkish people from Asia Minor (Anatolia) so my initial comments withstand I suppose, J2a is more common in Italians, Cretans, ANATOLIANS, Iranians, Lebanese etc... Overall J2b (M-12 in particular) are more frequent in the southern Balkans and may originate there ( the J2B subclade) Greece+AlbaniaAlbania

 

[adamo]

You are absolutely correct I continued my research and it is true the original TURKIC central Asians had R1b and R1a mixed with rarer Siberian lineages ( Q and N) not to mention that Q would also migrate to, and dominate, both north and South American Indians. But today, in the modern Turkish ANATOLIANS living in Asia Minor, these Siberian lineages are extremely rare, they have been completely destroyed by middle eastern J1,J2,G,T, even some E lineages; the ancient story of the original Turkic people that moved from Central Asia to turkey is lost genetically speaking

 

[kamani]

Interesting theory! Although my family name sounds really Hungarian. On our family coat of arms we have a flag like Skanderbeg's (red with the black two-headed eagle)

black 2-headed eagle on yellow is the Byzantine empire, black 2-headed eagle on red is the Kastrioti Albanian noble family (who were probably at some point under Byzantium). So that's as certain of a clue as it can get in these cases. Janos Hunyadi and George Kastrioti were allies against the ottomans in the 1400-s and they were the only ones to ever beat them (until "Vienna" in the 1500-s). So I would be proud if I were you, I wish I had that kind of proof around my house.
Genetically, it's hard to get precise with so few people tested in the area...

 

[BakodiP]

black 2-headed eagle on yellow is the Byzantine empire, black 2-headed eagle on red is the Kastrioti Albanian noble family (who were probably at some point under Byzantium). So that's as certain of a clue as it can get in these cases. Janos Hunyadi and George Kastrioti were allies against the ottomans in the 1400-s and they were the only ones to ever beat them (until "Vienna" in the 1500-s). So I would be proud if I were you, I wish I had that kind of proof around my house.
Genetically, it's hard to get precise with so few people tested in the area...

This is a coat of arms of one branch of my family from the XVII. century (1657-1673), not mine unfortunately. For our side I have only the description of the coat of arms, but the crest is nearly same as this one.

 

[kamani]

The 2 lions and the cross in the top-left are Hungarian Hunyadi symbols, the black eagle on red is Albanian Kastrioti family, the black eagle on yellow is probably Byzantine (or another Kastrioti), and the white-red squares in the bottom-left are probably croatian. I would say it is older than the 1600-s, because Albania fell to the ottomans in early 1500-s.

 

[Nobody1]

The 2 lions and the cross in the top-left are Hungarian Hunyadi symbols, the black eagle on red is Albanian Kastrioti family, the black eagle on yellow is probably Byzantine (or another Kastrioti), and the white-red squares in the bottom-left are probably croatian. Very interesting...

agree, but not completely.

Top left is Hungarian Heraldry
Top right is Bohemian Heraldry
Bottom left is Croatian Heraldry
Top Center is Holy Roman Empire [Habsburg Doppeladler on Gold]

Black Doppeladler on red looks Albanian [Kastrioti]

The Lion within the CoA is very interesting, is the head on pike supposed to be a Turk? Which would fit for 17th cen.
Battle of Szentgotthárd and Great Turkish War [Großer Türkenkrieg] in Hungary

at Bakodip

Are you/your family of Hungarian nobility?

 

[BakodiP]

agree, but not completely.

Top left is Hungarian Heraldry
Top right is Bohemian Heraldry
Bottom left is Croatian Heraldry
Top Center is Holy Roman Empire [Habsburg Doppeladler on Gold]

Black Doppeladler on red looks Albanian [Kastrioti]

The Lion within the CoA is very interesting, is the head on pike supposed to be a Turk? Which would fit for 17th cen.
Battle of Szentgotthárd and Great Turkish War [Großer Türkenkrieg] in Hungary

at Bakodip

Are you/your family of Hungarian nobility?

The coat of arms of Hungary (top left), Croatia (bottom left) and Dalmacia (bottom right) represent the old Kingdom of Hungary. With Bohemia they were part of the Habsburg Empire. And yes, that's possibly a Turkish head. It's surely from the time period which I described above because it was given by Leopold, and the soldier who got it died at 1673.

Yes, my family is a Hungarian noble family, but they all became nobles during the Turks war, and they weren't so wealthy. My direct line in 1593, this coat of arms 1657-1673, and another branch in 1681. All are from neighbouring counties in north-western part of Hungary (Sopron, Vas and Moson).

 

[Nobody1]

at BakodiP

I thought so, alot of Hungarians were knighted (ordered) during the Great Turkish war and your CoA suggests that. very cool.
I think the union with Bohemia comes from King Sigismunds times.
Hungary is a great historical place especially for central Europe. Im friends with some Fradi supporters and ground hopped Hungary with them in 2010 (also Győr), will def. visit Hungary again.

 

[BakodiP]

at BakodiP

I thought so, alot of Hungarians were knighted (ordered) during the Great Turkish war and your CoA suggests that. very cool.
I think the union with Bohemia comes from King Sigismunds times.
Hungary is a great historical place especially for central Europe. Im friends with some Fradi supporters and ground hopped Hungary with them in 2010 (also Győr), will def. visit Hungary again.

Great to hear that! I hope you'll have a wonderful stay here again!

 

[BakodiP]

Map of J2b and it's clades according to FTDNA SNP Maps.