massacre in 7,3 ka Els Trocs

[bicicleur 2]

Violence seems deeply rooted in human nature and an endemic potential for such is today frequently associated with differing ethnic, religious or socio-economic backgrounds. Ethnic nepotism is believed to be one of the main causes of inter-group violence in multi-ethnic societies. At the site of Els Trocs in the Spanish Pyrenees, rivalling groups of either migrating early farmers or farmers and indigenous hunter-gatherers collided violently around 5300 BCE. This clash apparently resulted in a massacre of the Els Trocs farmers.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-58483-9

https://www.realclearscience.com/qu...OSIg3oqmXw0pbhCD7EopwfqW4KC8Vq-0LiPtuDbsilhhk

it was when first farmers arrived at Els Trocs

 

[Angela]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If anyone wants to know what behaviors are baked into human dna, look at the apes. It's all there.

All that Rousseau inspired belief in the pacific nature of hunter-gatherers was crap. There was no Eden where humans were pacific.

I also doubt that evolution has changed us all that much in this regard. Imagine any doomsday apocalypse scenario you like, with a breakdown in law and order, and I would bet you it would all come out again.

 

[Ygorcs]

I also doubt that evolution has changed us all that much in this regard. Imagine any doomsday apocalypse scenario you like, with a breakdown in law and order, and I would bet you it would all come out again.

Indeed, one doesn't even have to imagine that much. The way colonists behaved in the remote lawless lands during the colonization of much of the Americas, away from any law, church and bureaucracy, was pretty much caotic and often even gratuitously violent like that. The chaos of post-Revolution Russia, until some sort of law and order was established (even if an evil one), was pretty much the same way. Ditto for the worst parts of the eastern front in the World War II.

 

[Angela]

Indeed, one doesn't even have to imagine that much. The way colonists behaved in the remote lawless lands during the colonization of much of the Americas, away from any law, church and bureaucracy, was pretty much caotic and often even gratuitously violent like that. The chaos of post-Revolution Russia, until some sort of law and order was established (even if an evil one), was pretty much the same way. Ditto for the worst parts of the eastern front in the World War II.

Indeed. Those German troops taxed with the massacres in the East like Babi Yar were brought to Italy after the landing of the Allies and unleashed on Northern Italy wherever partisans were helping the Allies. The situation was exactly the same as that described in the first post: old people, women and children massacred without mercy along with their priests, in this case with rifles and bombs and then fire, sometimes while trapped in their churches.

Some of the children they machine gunned and then burned. What darkness lies in the heart of men.

I'm not a great believer in how mankind has changed.

 

[Carlos]

In those times for God would be careful both the gatherer hunters and the farmers that I imagine they also hunted I do not think they were angels.


Sometimes I am in a Supermarket and I see people shopping apparently calm and I think all these people how they would behave before a state of siege or an hecatomb would be able to kill for a carton of milk or any food. Then I feel fear and I wonder what I would do, and I don't get an answer.

 

[Ygorcs]

Indeed. Those German troops taxed with the massacres in the East like Babi Yar were brought to Italy after the landing of the Allies and unleashed on Northern Italy wherever partisans were helping the Allies. The situation was exactly the same as that described in the first post: old people, women and children massacred without mercy along with their priests, in this case with rifles and bombs and then fire, sometimes while trapped in their churches.

Some of the children they machine gunned and then burned. What darkness lies in the heart of men.

I'm not a great believer in how mankind has changed.

Oh, it was so distressing for me to contemplate these innocent faces and think of what happened to them and to millions of other similar people during WW2 and other wars... This world is indeed a "valley of tears" as the Catholic prayer goes.

 

[Angela]

Oh, it was so distressing for me to contemplate these innocent faces and think of what happened to them and to millions of other similar people during WW2 and other wars... This world is indeed a "valley of tears" as the Catholic prayer goes.

Back in the day, that was my favorite prayer.

 

[Carlos]

The article has been very funky with xenophobia, ethnicities, racial issues. It is none of that.


The massacre of the Trocs was a punishment and they ordered to kill them because they had other deities and different rites and for those lands there was an old shaman with a lot of power in the tribe and was suspicious of those neighbors who did not need him or his idols and discovered that They did different rituals and worshiped other deities and one of the women knew how to heal and had knowledge of herbs and people began to go to that woman to heal etc. then the old shaman made a plan and convinced the bosses that these people should receive a punishment and the chief or the most important saw him with good eyes because the fame of those others endangered his own hierarchy in the area since having magical powers Healing gave great power within the communities. It was an undercover punishment.

 

[bicicleur 2]

The article has been very funky with xenophobia, ethnicities, racial issues. It is none of that.


The massacre of the Trocs was a punishment and they ordered to kill them because they had other deities and different rites and for those lands there was an old shaman with a lot of power in the tribe and was suspicious of those neighbors who did not need him or his idols and discovered that They did different rituals and worshiped other deities and one of the women knew how to heal and had knowledge of herbs and people began to go to that woman to heal etc. then the old shaman made a plan and convinced the bosses that these people should receive a punishment and the chief or the most important saw him with good eyes because the fame of those others endangered his own hierarchy in the area since having magical powers Healing gave great power within the communities. It was an undercover punishment.

or maybe it was a carjacking gone wrong

 

[Carlos]

or maybe it was a carjacking gone wrong

It is what they have failed to say in the article.

 

[Aaron1981]

Indeed, one doesn't even have to imagine that much. The way colonists behaved in the remote lawless lands during the colonization of much of the Americas, away from any law, church and bureaucracy, was pretty much caotic and often even gratuitously violent like that. The chaos of post-Revolution Russia, until some sort of law and order was established (even if an evil one), was pretty much the same way. Ditto for the worst parts of the eastern front in the World War II.

Said more simply, if people are in a position of power, many of them will abuse it unfortunately.

 

[[email protected]]

So will we all, if we're honest . . .

 

[don_joe]

We can find enough such examples even today. Some of us forum members lived for a while within a war zone in the heart of Europe, not that long ago. Such scenes were no rarity even less than 3 decades ago. But we can take contemporary Mexico as a example of brutality. Or how many members of the same family died today again due to a failed drone attack on terrorist cells in Middle East? 15 civilians dead in Yemen is small news in the West.

There are 2 phenomena which are repeating and playing together throughout history. The first one is that in any society we have around 5% of people with personality disorder, e.g. psychopats (narcissistic, sociopats and other), they feel no empathy. A long story short, they find their way up the social ladder due to their unscrupulousness. The most obvious result is if you look at the management board in your company. The chance is high that you'll find the best examples exactly there. The psycho ratio rises to maybe 20%. From average of 5% to probably 20% with the leading positions, or from every 20th person to every 5th. With a bit of manipulation they get often to the very top. Just look at some country presidents today, formally not dictators.

The other phenomenon is the "sheep syndrome" - follow the leader. A critical mind combined with courage is not a quality that many possess. It's more comfortable to go with the flow when things turn wrong and we can always find an excuse for it to justify our actions. It's much safer to obey, as long as we are not the direct victim.

Exactly this combination of these two is what we witness so often in all areas of our life. Brutality is a result of lack of empathy of the initiator and executioner with the logic better your ass than mine. Capitalism, communism...they don't fail necessary always as an idea, it's only the fact that when only a small board of people decides for all the others, the time comes sooner or later when someone sees himself as the highest priority no matter how high the costs are.

This slaughter from the OP might have been just an isolated incindent. We can't be certain and make a judgment based on 5 individuals. Same as today.

 

[Angela]

We can find enough such examples even today. Some of us forum members lived for a while within a war zone in the heart of Europe, not that long ago. Such scenes were no rarity even less than 3 decades ago. But we can take contemporary Mexico as a example of brutality. Or how many members of the same family died today again due to a failed drone attack on terrorist cells in Middle East? 15 civilians dead in Yemen is small news in the West.

There are 2 phenomena which are repeating and playing together throughout history. The first one is that in any society we have around 5% of people with personality disorder, e.g. psychopats (narcissistic, sociopats and other), they feel no empathy. A long story short, they find their way up the social ladder due to their unscrupulousness. The most obvious result is if you look at the management board in your company. The chance is high that you'll find the best examples exactly there. The psycho ratio rises to maybe 20%. From average of 5% to probably 20% with the leading positions, or from every 20th person to every 5th. With a bit of manipulation they get often to the very top. Just look at some country presidents today, formally not dictators.

The other phenomenon is the "sheep syndrome" - follow the leader. A critical mind combined with courage is not a quality that many possess. It's more comfortable to go with the flow when things turn wrong and we can always find an excuse for it to justify our actions. It's much safer to obey, as long as we are not the direct victim.

Exactly this combination of these two is what we witness so often in all areas of our life. Brutality is a result of lack of empathy of the initiator and executioner with the logic better your ass than mine. Capitalism, communism...they don't fail necessary always as an idea, it's only the fact that when only a small board of people decides for all the others, the time comes sooner or later when someone sees himself as the highest priority no matter how high the costs are.

This slaughter from the OP might have been just an isolated incindent. We can't be certain and make a judgment based on 5 individuals. Same as today.

I agree with a lot of what you said, don joe, but I don't believe the number is that small. What the Nazis did during World War II required not only the complicity but the active participation of a lot more than 5% of the population. There were whole regiments of these men, not only manning the concentration camps, but slaughtering civilians all over Europe.

Ed. To return to the topic of the paper. It seems that the majority of the Red Army soldiers participated in this horror. As I said, I think your 4% figure is much too low. You don't have to be an outright psychopath to commit horrors on other people.

 

[Ailchu]

even empathic people can become monsters towards others with the right propaganda and brain washing. our tribal nature enables us to feel empathy for those who we think are part of our group but feel almost nothing towards others. my theory is this trait is more developed in men. maybe this evolved because individuals who showed no mercy towards outsiders deleted a possible genetic contribution from outside so that their own has less competition and they also made sure that there is no danger in the future. it is also beneficial in the moment of fighting to be cold blooded and thus be less hesitant to stab an opponent or to smash someones skull.
today most xenophobes are male so that might not be comming from nowhere.

 

[don_joe]

I agree with a lot of what you said, don joe, but I don't believe the number is that small. What the Nazis did during World War II required not only the complicity but the active participation of a lot more than 5% of the population. There were whole regiments of these men, not only manning the concentration camps, but slaughtering civilians all over Europe.

You're absolutely right. Like my theory that I've explained, psychos are manipulators and initiators. The "sheep" carry it out, for many reasons. It can be a sense of belonging and protection within a group, our old need we inherit as animals. It can be just fear for own life or whatever. We are not talking only about Nazis or Germans in general. A few other European countries have organized killing of indigineous people in millions around the globe in the name of god, crown or whatever. The regiments were made mostly of peasants living a hard pious life, careing about their families with the last thought about murdering some natives many thousand miles away. But they did. Manipulators said natives are half humans like Jewish were for some others. That's an excuse when you're to afraid to swim against the flow to deal with your own conscience. Milgram experiment on a larger scale. No nation is special, it can happen and it happened everywhere.

 

[MOESAN]

I agree for the most with don joe.
Your "psychos" don't need to be so numerous (I am not one of them), but they can account upon cowards (I'm maybe among these last ones, not tested yet and feel no need). And Germans of the ""last" world war were ordinary people, as a whole. But perhaps too much used to order and discipline?

 

[don_joe]

I agree for the most with don joe.
Your "psychos" don't need to be so numerous (I am not one of them), but they can account upon cowards (I'm maybe among these last ones, not tested yet and feel no need). And Germans of the ""last" world war were ordinary people, as a whole. But perhaps too much used to order and discipline?

You're right that they are used to order. But every colonization and genocide happened in the same manner. The Nazis weren't inventors and don't own the exlusive rights. Hereby I would only concentrate on the Europian countries and their imperialistic history, even before the WWII.

 

[Angela]

No imperialist European country ever had as its stated goal the extermination of whole groups of people, i.e. the Jews and Gypsies first, along with anyone whom they considered to have physical or mental defects, to be followed by the Slavs, although the German colonies in Africa were the most brutally run.

There is absolutely no comparison.

Nor do all European countries have as hallmarks of their culture slavish obedience to civic authority figures. The concentration and extermination camps were built in, and manned from, only certain areas.

Despite having a Fascist leader and government, not a single person from Italy was sent to an extermination camp until after Mussolini had been deposed and placed under arrest, and the Germans raced in to release him and set up a puppet government. One of the nicest things ever said about Italians was the comment made by a German general who advised the other generals and the Nazi officials not to inform the Italians about what was going on because "They'd never stomach it." He may not have meant it as a compliment, but a compliment it was.

Not, of course, that there weren't Italians who were complicit with the Nazis in implementing "racial" policy. However, the vast majority of the Italian Jews were saved precisely because humanity, human relationships, trumped obedience to rules, even the rules of their own party. A lot of nominal fascists were involved in saving Jews, at risk of their own lives. As for the Italian army, they placed the Jews in the corner of France they controlled under their protection. Only when they were gone did the transports begin.

How much of that took place in Germany? The answer is: none of it.

Let's try not to rewrite history, ok?

 

[don_joe]

No imperialist European country ever had as its stated goal the extermination of whole groups of people, i.e. the Jews and Gypsies first, along with anyone whom they considered to have physical or mental defects, to be followed by the Slavs, although the German colonies in Africa were the most brutally run.

There is absolutely no comparison.

Nor do all European countries have as hallmarks of their culture slavish obedience to civic authority figures. The concentration and extermination camps were built in, and manned from, only certain areas.

Despite having a Fascist leader and government, not a single person from Italy was sent to an extermination camp until after Mussolini had been deposed and placed under arrest, and the Germans raced in to release him and set up a puppet government. One of the nicest things ever said about Italians was the comment made by a German general who advised the other generals and the Nazi officials not to inform the Italians about what was going on because "They'd never stomach it." He may not have meant it as a compliment, but a compliment it was.

Not, of course, that there weren't Italians who were complicit with the Nazis in implementing "racial" policy. However, the vast majority of the Italian Jews were saved precisely because humanity, human relationships, trumped obedience to rules, even the rules of their own party. A lot of nominal fascists were involved in saving Jews, at risk of their own lives. As for the Italian army, they placed the Jews in the corner of France they controlled under their protection. Only when they were gone did the transports begin.

How much of that took place in Germany? The answer is: none of it.

Let's try not to rewrite history, ok?

You're talking about the impact, I'm talking about mobilizing ordinary people for murder. I'm not an advocate of any evil. I'm not discussing who is worse than who, I just say that there were fine other examples of brutality even before. It wasn't invented with the WWII.

Apropos rewriting history, Italian troops didn't bring flowers to the Ethiopians, did they?