massacre in 7,3 ka Els Trocs

[Angela]

You're talking about the impact, I'm talking about mobilizing ordinary people for murder. I'm not an advocate of any evil. I'm not discussing who is worse than who, I just say that there were fine other examples of brutality even before. It wasn't invented with the WWII.

Apropos rewriting history, Italian troops didn't bring flowers to the Ethiopians, did they?

You clearly haven't been reading my posts. The slaughter of other men for resources and "ancestral" lands and the rape of women as an act of war are horrors as old as man and as recent as the war in the Balkans a few decades ago.

Nor are my comments about differing impact because of the use of modern technology and transport.

My point is that Nazism was an ideology which had as one of its central tenets that there are superior peoples and people who are not quite human, and that the wealth, territory etc. that these untermenschen or "not quite human" people possess are therefore ripe for the taking. Indeed, the very existence of this different "breed" of human is an affront and a danger if they are allowed to mix with the ubermenschen and so it is a goal, an ultimate good and moral imperative to exterminate them.

Please tell me of another country, especially another European country, where such beliefs were adopted so readily and by such huge proportions, or where such a huge proportion of the population was so craven that there was virtually NO resistance to it.

So, no, it's absolutely not just about "impact".

It's about whether there was a clear, deliberate, intention, an ideological imperative to exterminate whole groups of people which was methodically planned and carried out. The only close parallel which occurs to me at the moment is the Armenian genocide and even that is not really analogous.

I'm also talking about mobilizing large segments of ordinary people for murder. There will always be psychopaths and sociopaths in any country. If you're going to be able to succeed in putting into practice a mass extermination of millions of people, you're going to need to mobilize a large percentage of your country for murder, and the rest of the populace is going to have to just stand by.

The question is whether there are differences between groups of people or cultures. I believe people, their genetic predispositions, are partly responsible for culture. Historical experiences are definitely another factor. Whichever is at play and in what percentages varies.There was NO resistance whatsoever in Germany. In eastern Europe most of the camps were partly staffed by locals. Sale of Jews for a loaf of bread was commonplace. Priests preached the Jew were Christ killers and brought this on themselves. That's why extermination camps were built in Germany and countries in the east. The German planners talked about it openly. It's all there in the records.

What's at play here? Is it more territorialism, more hatred of the other? Is it a character trait where people are more often blindly obedient to any authority figures? Is it the presence of more people who lack empathy? Is it a question of group loyalty versus individual connections, i.e. the Jewish grocer down the street who has always been kind to you?

All I know is that there are definite differences.

Is Italy's misguided attempt to colonize Ethiopia supposed to be a gotcha moment? That's not logical. I've already stated in this very thread that of course there were some Italian fascists who went along with the Germans once they came in and set up the puppet government in Northern Italy. Each and every one of them should have been hung, along with any partisans who might have committed atrocities. You really think I'm the kind of person who would excuse such activities because it was a countryman who committed them?

I've also often stated that the Ethiopian campaign is a blot on Italian history. No country is free of them. It's much easier, however, as anyone should understand, to drop a bomb from a plane than to stand in front of women and children and old people and set fire to them as you look them in the face and hear their screams and pleas for mercy.

Plus, that's a tangent. The question is whether it is easier in some countries and cultures to mobilize the entire population into either active participation in a killing frenzy or slavish adherence to the "group" imperative, or both.

 

[don_joe]

You clearly haven't been reading my posts. The slaughter of other men for resources and "ancestral" lands and the rape of women as an act of war are horrors as old as man and as recent as the war in the Balkans a few decades ago.

Nor are my comments about differing impact because of the use of modern technology and transport.

My point is that Nazism was an ideology which had as one of its central tenets that there are superior peoples and people who are not quite human, and that the wealth, territory etc. that these untermenschen or "not quite human" people possess are therefore ripe for the taking. Indeed, the very existence of this different "breed" of human is an affront and a danger if they are allowed to mix with the ubermenschen and so it is a goal, an ultimate good and moral imperative to exterminate them.

Please tell me of another country, especially another European country, where such beliefs were adopted so readily and by such huge proportions, or where such a huge proportion of the population was so craven that there was virtually NO resistance to it.

So, no, it's absolutely not just about "impact".

It's about whether there was a clear, deliberate, intention, an ideological imperative to exterminate whole groups of people which was methodically planned and carried out. The only close parallel which occurs to me at the moment is the Armenian genocide and even that is not really analogous.

I'm also talking about mobilizing large segments of ordinary people for murder. There will always be psychopaths and sociopaths in any country. If you're going to be able to succeed in putting into practice a mass extermination of millions of people, you're going to need to mobilize a large percentage of your country for murder, and the rest of the populace is going to have to just stand by.

The question is whether there are differences between groups of people or cultures. I believe people, their genetic predispositions, are partly responsible for culture. Historical experiences are definitely another factor. Whichever is at play and in what percentages varies.There was NO resistance whatsoever in Germany. In eastern Europe most of the camps were partly staffed by locals. Sale of Jews for a loaf of bread was commonplace. Priests preached the Jew were Christ killers and brought this on themselves. That's why extermination camps were built in Germany and countries in the east. The German planners talked about it openly. It's all there in the records.

What's at play here? Is it more territorialism, more hatred of the other? Is it a character trait where people are more often blindly obedient to any authority figures? Is it the presence of more people who lack empathy? Is it a question of group loyalty versus individual connections, i.e. the Jewish grocer down the street who has always been kind to you?

All I know is that there are definite differences.

Is Italy's misguided attempt to colonize Ethiopia supposed to be a gotcha moment? That's not logical. I've already stated in this very thread that of course there were some Italian fascists who went along with the Germans once they came in and set up the puppet government in Northern Italy. Each and every one of them should have been hung, along with any partisans who might have committed atrocities. You really think I'm the kind of person who would excuse such activities because it was a countryman who committed them?

I've also often stated that the Ethiopian campaign is a blot on Italian history. No country is free of them. It's much easier, however, as anyone should understand, to drop a bomb from a plane than to stand in front of women and children and old people and set fire to them as you look them in the face and hear their screams and pleas for mercy.

Plus, that's a tangent. The question is whether it is easier in some countries and cultures to mobilize the entire population into either active participation in a killing frenzy or slavish adherence to the "group" imperative, or both.

There was indeed resistance in Germany, the 20 July plot. And I'll name you just one country: Belgian occupation of Congo. Atrocities and slavery, milions of dead people. They only didn't call themselves Übermenschen.

Don't get upset. I'm seeking no conflict, you accused me for rewriting history and then for not reading your posts. Your posts are getting longer and longer to try to prove your point, especially about things that I didn't even say.

All the best.

 

[Angela]

There was indeed resistance in Germany, the 20 July plot. And I'll name you just one country: Belgian occupation of Congo. Atrocities and slavery, milions of dead people. They only didn't call themselves Übermenschen.

Don't get upset. I'm seeking no conflict, you accused me for rewriting history and then for not reading your posts. Your posts are getting longer and longer to try to prove your point, especially about things that I didn't even say.

All the best.

I don't want any conflict either, Joe.

I'm just trying to set the historical record straight.

Yes, the Belgian occupation of the Congo was a horror, and the German colonies were terrible, as indeed I mentioned, but it wasn't, imo, the same.

The July 20 plot was an attempt by a few German generals to take back control of their country from a madman leading their army to destruction. It failed dismally because it didn't have broad support, not just because the bomb didn't work as planned. It had nothing to do with the extermination camps per se, and there were almost no German civilians who seem to have objected to them. I've read dozens and dozens of books on the subject and the evidence is clear.

My point is that there seems to me, from the historical record, to be a difference between countries in terms of the incidence of these kinds of things.

My posts are long because I'm trying to cover all the issues raised. Blame it on a career writing briefs and then contracts that cover every area of possibility. It's also that I find that younger people in particular are lacking in historical context. Apologies if that doesn't apply to you.

 

[don_joe]

I don't want any conflict either, Joe.

I'm just trying to set the historical record straight.

Yes, the Belgian occupation of the Congo was a horror, and the German colonies were terrible, as indeed I mentioned, but it wasn't, imo, the same.

The July 20 plot was an attempt by a few German generals to take back control of their country from a madman leading their army to destruction. It failed dismally because it didn't have broad support, not just because the bomb didn't work as planned. It had nothing to do with the extermination camps per se, and there were almost no German civilians who seem to have objected to them. I've read dozens and dozens of books on the subject and the evidence is clear.

My point is that there seems to me, from the historical record, to be a difference between countries in terms of the incidence of these kinds of things.

My posts are long because I'm trying to cover all the issues raised. Blame it on a career writing briefs and then contracts that cover every area of possibility. It's also that I find that younger people in particular are lacking in historical context. Apologies if that doesn't apply to you.

I don't want any conflict either, Joe.

I'm just trying to set the historical record straight.

Yes, the Belgian occupation of the Congo was a horror, and the German colonies were terrible, as indeed I mentioned, but it wasn't, imo, the same.

The July 20 plot was an attempt by a few German generals to take back control of their country from a madman leading their army to destruction. It failed dismally because it didn't have broad support, not just because the bomb didn't work as planned. It had nothing to do with the extermination camps per se, and there were almost no German civilians who seem to have objected to them. I've read dozens and dozens of books on the subject and the evidence is clear.

My point is that there seems to me, from the historical record, to be a difference between countries in terms of the incidence of these kinds of things.

My posts are long because I'm trying to cover all the issues raised. Blame it on a career writing briefs and then contracts that cover every area of possibility. It's also that I find that younger people in particular are lacking in historical context. Apologies if that doesn't apply to you.

Thank you for your straight and kind response. Sure you are better educated then most of us enthusiasts here. But if you're to harsh to us, there's no reason for us to start or participate in any discussion.

My point is only this: all genocides and masacres are different, on a different scale and with different methods applied. Back to the OP, we can't judge the whole population living thousands of years ago in the area based on a few slaughtered individuals. It could be an isolated incident. Secondly, the Nazis were brutal. They lived also in the 20th century were technological and social development reached high exponential growth, so these methods and political brain wash in this extent was maybe first time possible. I'm afraid even to think what would have happened if Spain, Portugal, France, England, Holland, Belgium or Russia (to name a few ) would have the same conditions a few centuries before or during the WWI. Germans didn't invent atrocities, they brought it only a step further due to global progress. The economy was on it's knees, they suffered under WWI reparation to France, had to part from a piece of the country and the inflation was killing them. You can blame the German discipline but they were ready to go for whatever was on the agenda. Some German civilians have hidden some Jewish at their home, then there's Schindler as an example. We can't say that the whole nation was just standing by.

I hope no one feels offended. We humans are animals. No matter which ethnicity or nation. As soon as the wolf is leading, the sheep start killing, in the name of whatever but basically to protect it's own skin and to belong.

 

[Angela]

Thank you for your straight and kind response. Sure you are better educated then most of us enthusiasts here. But if you're to harsh to us, there's no reason for us to start or participate in any discussion.

My point is only this: all genocides and masacres are different, on a different scale and with different methods applied. Back to the OP, we can't judge the whole population living thousands of years ago in the area based on a few slaughtered individuals. It could be an isolated incident. Secondly, the Nazis were brutal. They lived also in the 20th century were technological and social development reached high exponential growth, so these methods and political brain wash in this extent was maybe first time possible. I'm afraid even to think what would have happened if Spain, Portugal, France, England, Holland, Belgium or Russia (to name a few ) would have the same conditions a few centuries before or during the WWI. Germans didn't invent atrocities, they brought it only a step further due to global progress. The economy was on it's knees, they suffered under WWI reparation to France, had to part from a piece of the country and the inflation was killing them. You can blame the German discipline but they were ready to go for whatever was on the agenda. Some German civilians have hidden some Jewish at their home, then there's Schindler as an example. We can't say that the whole nation was just standing by.

I hope no one feels offended. We humans are animals. No matter which ethnicity or nation. As soon as the wolf is leading, the sheep start killing, in the name of whatever but basically to protect it's own skin and to belong.

I respect your point of view; I just don't share it. I still maintain that different countries react differently when leaders push for extermination of groups of people. That's why Italy was so different from Germany during World War II. I'm confident of that, and I don't think I'm unduly influenced by the fact that so many of the horrors inflicted on Italians by the Germans took place in my own area, and that one of my distant cousins was sent to a concentration camp. I reveal all that in the interest of full disclosure.

If you don't see that, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

Usually, I hope, when I sound harsh it's not in response to some genuine, agenda free poster with whom I just happen to disagree. After more years than I care to count in this field and on this site I know the posters, even when they are trying to disguise their identities by using sock accounts. You can't hide your "voice", if you know what I mean: your preoccupations, turns of phrase, etc. Sometimes they just list whole sentences from things they've posted before under other names. So, I give them short shrift.

I never mean to do that to honest posters like you. I'll try to be more conscious of that with "unknown" posters.

 

[don_joe]

I respect your point of view; I just don't share it. I still maintain that different countries react differently when leaders push for extermination of groups of people. That's why Italy was so different from Germany during World War II. I'm confident of that, and I don't think I'm unduly influenced by the fact that so many of the horrors inflicted on Italians by the Germans took place in my own area, and that one of my distant cousins was sent to a concentration camp. I reveal all that in the interest of full disclosure.

If you don't see that, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

Usually, I hope, when I sound harsh it's not in response to some genuine, agenda free poster with whom I just happen to disagree. After more years than I care to count in this field and on this site I know the posters, even when they are trying to disguise their identities by using sock accounts. You can't hide your "voice", if you know what I mean: your preoccupations, turns of phrase, etc. Sometimes they just list whole sentences from things they've posted before under other names. So, I give them short shrift.

I never mean to do that to honest posters like you. I'll try to be more conscious of that with "unknown" posters.

I respect your point of view; I just don't share it. I still maintain that different countries react differently when leaders push for extermination of groups of people. That's why Italy was so different from Germany during World War II. I'm confident of that, and I don't think I'm unduly influenced by the fact that so many of the horrors inflicted on Italians by the Germans took place in my own area, and that one of my distant cousins was sent to a concentration camp. I reveal all that in the interest of full disclosure.

If you don't see that, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

Usually, I hope, when I sound harsh it's not in response to some genuine, agenda free poster with whom I just happen to disagree. After more years than I care to count in this field and on this site I know the posters, even when they are trying to disguise their identities by using sock accounts. You can't hide your "voice", if you know what I mean: your preoccupations, turns of phrase, etc. Sometimes they just list whole sentences from things they've posted before under other names. So, I give them short shrift.

I never mean to do that to honest posters like you. I'll try to be more conscious of that with "unknown" posters.

Let me agree with you on the fact that different countries react differently, I didn't say that this wasn't true. I had casualties in my own family, murdered by the fascist regime. I could also hate. However, I see that there's not just one blood thirsty nation with monopoly on brutality. There's also no excuse.

 

[Ailchu]

What's at play here? Is it more territorialism, more hatred of the other? Is it a character trait where people are more often blindly obedient to any authority figures? Is it the presence of more people who lack empathy? Is it a question of group loyalty versus individual connections, i.e. the Jewish grocer down the street who has always been kind to you?

All I know is that there are definite differences.

so your theory is that germans are genetically or culturally more prone to killing innocents? since culture is tied to genetics for you i assume you place emphasis on genetics. maybe that is the case maybe not. i'll try to give some more possible explanations for those differences between the treatments of jewish people in germany, or to some extent eastern europe, and italy.

first the numbers. there were living around 500'000 jewish people in germany in 1930 mostly concentrated in the big cities. there were around 50'000 jewish people living in italy. maybe the jewish community was more visible in germany than in italy due to this.

then there was germany's defeat in WW1 and all the repressions that came with it. the jews were one of the groups, another one were the socialists, which were held responsible for the defeat. already during the war one accusation was that the jewish men were physically inferior and unfit for beeing soldiers. many believed the jewish men were shirkers who used excuses money and connections to get away from the war. a census of the army was made and the results were not made public because it would be dangerous for the jewish community. nowadays we know that many jewish german people fought at the front and died for germany like all the others but back then this propaganda was increasing antisemitism in germany more and more. italy was neutral during WW1 so there was no need for a black sheep.

and another explanation, could be that the jewish people who lived in italy were phenotypically not as different from the non-jewish italians around them as german jews were from the other germans. so maybe it was way harder to create an antisemitic sentiment among the italians and make them cold or racist against jewish people because ethnically the overlap between the two groups was bigger than it was the case in germany.

now when it comes to punitive actions against civilians, including women and children, on occupied territory italy was far away from beeing innocent. someone like Graziani would have at least deserved a death sentence instead he was sitting in a prison for 4 months. Roatta too, he was responsible for the death of thousands of civilians. he was sentenced to life imprisonment and fled to spain. in 1948 his sentence was revoked.

 

[Angela]

so your theory is that germans are genetically or culturally more prone to killing innocents? since culture is tied to genetics for you i assume you place emphasis on genetics. maybe that is the case maybe not. i'll try to give some more possible explanations for those differences between the treatments of jewish people in germany, or to some extent eastern europe, and italy.

first the numbers. there were living around 500'000 jewish people in germany in 1930 mostly concentrated in the big cities. there were around 50'000 jewish people living in italy. maybe the jewish community was more visible in germany than in italy due to this.

then there was germany's defeat in WW1 and all the repressions that came with it. the jews were one of the groups, another one were the socialists, which were held responsible for the defeat. already during the war one accusation was that the jewish men were physically inferior and unfit for beeing soldiers. many believed the jewish men were shirkers who used excuses money and connections to get away from the war. a census of the army was made and the results were not made public because it would be dangerous for the jewish community. nowadays we know that many jewish german people fought at the front and died for germany like all the others but back then this propaganda was increasing antisemitism in germany more and more. italy was neutral during WW1 so there was no need for a black sheep.

and another explanation, could be that the jewish people who lived in italy were phenotypically not as different from the non-jewish italians around them as german jews were from the other germans. so maybe it was way harder to create an antisemitic sentiment among the italians and make them cold or racist against jewish people because ethnically the overlap between the two groups was bigger than it was the case in germany.

now when it comes to punitive actions against civilians, including women and children, on occupied territory italy was far away from beeing innocent. someone like Graziani would have at least deserved a death sentence instead he was sitting in a prison for 4 months. Roatta too, he was responsible for the death of thousands of civilians. he was sentenced to life imprisonment and fled to spain. in 1948 his sentence was revoked.

As always you bring up irrelevancies or straw man arguments.

Who the hell says Italy was totally innocent of any wrongdoing during the war? I already pointed that out when talking about the bombing of Ethiopia, and also when I pointed out that after the establishment of the Salo' puppet government there were Italian Fascists who worked with the Nazis. There were also Italians, unfortunately, who informed on Jews or Resistance members for that matter, or who took advantage of the anti-Semitic laws to make money. No country is completely populated with empathetic, compassionate, people. That's human nature. I'm talking about differences in degree.

You either don't read very carefully or you just deliberately want to mislead by creating straw man arguments.

As for how many Jews there were in Italy it's irrelevant. The issue is what percent were saved. The percent saved is huge: 80%.

Next, it's indeed true that to Germans most Ashkenazim, not all, look closer to Italians, particularly Italians south of Rome, in phenotype than they do to Germans. So, what are you saying? People should only be expected to have fellow feeling for other human beings if they look a bit like them? Nominal Italian Fascists helped British and American POWs too, even though they looked rather different. All that this phenotype "closeness" meant was that in a cursory, visual check the Germans might not pick out the Jews. However, if you didn't have the correct papers you were done for as they were requested constantly. Even then, if there was the slightest suspicion of a man, all they had to do was make him drop his pants, which they did.

Your longest paragraph is an apologia for mass murder and so is disgusting. Also, for your information, Italy was very hard hit by the Great Depression, and after Mussolini allied himself with that monster Hitler, Italy did adopt anti-Semitic Laws at Hitler's insistence. People were bombarded with anti-Semitic propaganda, the same propaganda you cite, at every turn: on the walls, in the newspapers, music etc. The difference is that when facing actual human beings being hunted and killed, the response was different, even though they knew there was terrible risk not only to themselves but to their families and communities.

Please don't presume to argue Italian history when you know nothing about it.

People differ in the amount of empathy they feel for other human beings, and in how much importance they place on obedience to the collective or group versus the needs of individuals. Why not nations? I hope I don't have to explain that when talking about nations one can only speak about averages.

 

[Ailchu]

As always you bring up irrelevancies or straw man arguments.

so i guess discussing other reasons other than genetic differences is irrelevant for you. do you really want it to be solely because of genetic differences? you said its because of genetics and culture, culture is also determined by genetics. what else coud be different then? in that case i'll just look at modern societies and see which work best. maybe higher rates of corruption and clannish behaviour are also solely due to genetic differences.

As for how many Jews there were in Italy it's irrelevant. The issue is what percent were saved. The percent saved is huge: 80%.

no it isn't irrelevant. at least it was already back then considered as a factor that might have played a role

this was written in 1938 by Martin Agronsky
"Italy is one of the last countries in Europe where anti-Semitism might normally be expected to gain much headway. Roughly estimated, one Italian out of a thousand is Jewish -- an exceedingly small proportion when compared for instance with the situation in Poland, where the ratio is one in ten, or in pre-Nazi Germany, where it was one in a hundred. Consequently, the relentless "race" campaign inaugurated by the Fascist Government early last summer surprised and puzzled Italians and non-Italians, Jews and non-Jews."

Your longest paragraph is an apologia for mass murder and so is disgusting.

i really want to know how this was an appology for mass murder if saying that throwing gas bombs is easier and needs less moral degeneracy than shooting people from close isn't apologia. or that italian war crimes in yugoslavia aren't that bad because they treated themselves a few decades later even more brutal anyway. that is disgusting apologia.

Also, for your information, Italy was very hard hit by the Great Depression

that is definitly not comparable to post war germany.

Next, it's indeed true that to Germans most Ashkenazim, not all, look closer to Italians, particularly Italians south of Rome, in phenotype than they do to Germans. So, what are you saying? People should only be expected to have fellow feeling for other human beings if they look a bit like them? Nominal Italian Fascists helped British and American POWs too, even though they looked rather different.

why make it so absolute? i didn't say "People should only be expected to have fellow feeling for other human beings if they look a bit like them", i made the theory that it is harder to make people hate another group because of their ethnicity, when this group looks more similar. maybe you don't read carefully and deliberatly want to mislead?
it is harder to convince an uneducated and ignorant person that another person is inferior when that other person looks identical than when that other person looks more different. the jews in italy were considered to be mediterraneans just like the italians. the antisemitic propaganda in italy tried to replace this mediterranean mindset with one that is more centered around an "aryan" race based around a blonde and blue eyed ubermensch, which was more like a uncivilized barbarian in the italian eyes. how successful could this propaganda be? we are deeply superficial creatures if you haven't realized yet. today phenotype and is extremely important in racism. i doubt it was that different 100 years ago. it's just human nature, which is, i guess, the topic of this thread.

All that this phenotype "closeness" meant was that in a cursory, visual check the Germans might not pick out the Jews.

maybe that's because for racism or generally discriminating another group the individuals don't matter that much. what matters more is the size of the difference between the average picture of the own ethnic group/ culture shaped by own experiences, like own physical appearance or that of people around you, and propaganda, and the average picture of other people also shaped by own experiences and propaganda. maybe they also thought that if someone who looked german must have been mixed or that the behaviour, which was also considered to be inheritable, was still "jewish".

I just don't share it. I still maintain that different countries react differently when leaders push for extermination of groups of people. That's why Italy was so different from Germany during World War II. I'm confident of that, and I don't think I'm unduly influenced by the fact that so many of the horrors inflicted on Italians by the Germans took place in my own area, and that one of my distant cousins was sent to a concentration camp.

did you know, that the italian fascists were treating the people in occupied regions the same way?

 

[Angela]

Discussing things with you is just useless. You go on ignore.

 

[Ailchu]

ok since i'm on Angelas long ignore list, can someone else tell me what i said wrong or why it was irrelevance and "disgusting" apologia?

or how this from another thread isn't apologia?
"Mussolini fashioned fascism, a fact of which I'm not proud, but the Germans added the racism, anti-semitism, mass enslavement and killing. So, I suppose it's easier for his daughter to try to whitewash him."

"I don't think anything that Italians might have done in the Balkans begins to compare with what they have done to each other, and that barely a generation ago, so I don't know where you're going with that, either."

 

[bicicleur 2]

just let it be

we drifted a long way from the 7,3 ka massacres

 

[italouruguayan]

Today I was rereading this old thread. It began by talking about a massacre that occurred 7000 years ago, then other more recent ones were reviewed, the colonizations in other continents, the Second World War, the most recent, the Balkan war in the 90s... and now we have these bestialities in Ukraine. Humanity learns nothing...

 

[Angela]

Today I was rereading this old thread. It began by talking about a massacre that occurred 7000 years ago, then other more recent ones were reviewed, the colonizations in other continents, the Second World War, the most recent, the Balkan war in the 90s... and now we have these bestialities in Ukraine. Humanity learns nothing...

So sad, isn't it? Also enraging. The powerful who lead us into this kind of madness pay no price, and the innocents suffer. Every little town in my home area has a monument to the women, children, old men, who were killed by the SS, but also by the Wehrmach and our own traitors. I grew up on those stories and they formed me as a human being in indelible ways.

All dead, but not forgotten.

[/IMG]

 

[italouruguayan]

So sad, isn't it? Also enraging. The powerful who lead us into this kind of madness pay no price, and the innocents suffer. Every little town in my home area has a monument to the women, children, old men, who were killed by the SS, but also by the Wehrmach and our own traitors. I grew up on those stories and they formed me as a human being in indelible ways.
All dead, but not forgotten.

[/IMG]

So sad...