Sile
Banned
- Messages
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- Reaction score
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- Location
- Australia
- Ethnic group
- North Alpine Italian
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
- mtDNA haplogroup
- H95a1 ..Pannoni
I wouldn't read too much into the Late Bronze Age J2a1 sample from Hungary (c. 1200 BCE). The Indo-Europeans had been in the region for nearly 2000 years by then, and it could very well have been a foreigner or an assimilated person from a non-IE culture. After all three Unetice samples tested in this new study turned out to be assimilated local I2 lineages, not steppe lineages.
We are talking about one of the most unstable period in European and Near Eastern history here. Most East Mediterranean civilizations collapsed around 1200 BCE due to the mysterious Sea Peoples. Even the Haak el al. paper discussed here mentions that 1200 BCE is the turning point for the domination of Yamna-like admixture in central European graves. As I mentioned above, this also happen to correspond to the sudden adoption of cremation instead of kurgan/tumulus burial in central Europe for only one hundred years (Urnfield culture), before the traditional tumulus burial resumed with the Hallstatt culture.
No one knows precisely what cataclysmic events took place around 1200 BCE, but I would bet that this corresponds to an expansion of J2a people in the Eastern Mediterranean, and that the Sea Peoples were probably predominantly J2a people. After all, all the great ancient seafaring civilizations all presumably had high percentages of J2a, including the Phoenicians who just happen to emerge around 1200 BCE.
One hypothesis of mine is that the Sea Peoples were descended from the Minoan civilization, which had just collapsed c. 1450 BCE. The fall of the Minoan state might have led to Minoan people turning to piracy and raiding the coasts of the East Mediterranean, from Sardinia to the Levant. The Trojans, whose city had been destroyed by the Mycenaeans c. 1200 BCE, may well have been a mixture of R1b-L23 and J2a people, and Trojans who escaped may also have been among the Sea Peoples who sought revenge on Mycenaean Greece and caused its downfall less than 100 years later.
1200 BCE also coincides with the arrival of the Dorians in Greece, the Phrygians in western Anatolia and the Armenians in eastern Anatolia, who I think were all predominantly R1b-L23 tribes from the Balkans, with assimilated Neolithic lineages (E-V13, G2a, I2...). Their departure from the Balkans left place for a northward expansion of Greek lineages, among which J2a.
In such a context, it would be unreasonable to label a Hungarian J2a1 as necessarily Indo-European.
Mycenea also fell when the trojans fell.......they too can be sea peoples , even more so since identical burial mounds have been found in istria which are same as pellopenne mycenea.
As some state....are myceneans really greek or something else, is the Greek we know today only originate from dorians a NW greek people?
yes I believe R1b was hittitie and also hurrians ( NE of hittities ) with J2 and I