McCain-Obama meeting on Syria

[Sile]

But what really happens is that US always end up leaving trail of death, destroyed country and economy. I remember it happened in Libya not long ago. You wanna bet it would not happen in Syria too?


1. American soldiers that are all over the world pose that, not I.
2. Real money? Based on gold? Or just paper money?
3. Prove that. Lets see normal life just once, where US treaded.


Just that US has very effective MI service. You don't think so?


Your logic would be fine if CIA wasn't the one which initiated the conflict in Syria. If there wasn't for US, there would be no Syrian war, no conflict, no rebels, probably just students demonstrating from time to time, which happens all over the world.


Why would you say it was a myth? US soldiers came on North Vietnamese territory to kill North Vietnamese which didn't even had an Atom bomb. Not even chemical weapons... Nor cruisers and airplanes. Nor choppers and tanks.... Nor electricity, petrol and food.... Did they have uniforms?

Pssst, we know you would like to conquer China, but don't say it out loud
You'd already conquer the whole world just if they didn't have nukes.


I already said that I have no doubt that US wants to make us all be like it. And that it will not stop, and won't restraint to use any method to make all the world subjected to it.


Than you should take your gun, and go to Washington


That's what you think. I'm sure that Napoleon felt the same about himself. Do Libyans or Iraqi think that?



I'm not even going to get into this one. :sad-2:



Little Chinese kids have books, where they read how little Chinese kids lived 5000 years ago. Where did you get the idea that they can learn anything from US?

you know the americans want to sell arms, you need wars to sell arms

 

[LeBrok]

you know the americans want to sell arms, you need wars to sell arms

Who did they sell arms in Syrian conflict? Maybe you should blame Russia for this war?

With this logic Australia is behind strikes in coal mines in South Africa, and uses Tesla Coil to create earthquakes in mines in China, just to sell more Australian coal. It makes sense, isn't it.

 

[Sile]

Who did they sell arms in Syrian conflict? Maybe you should blame Russia for this war?

With this logic Australia is behind strikes in coal mines in South Africa, and uses Tesla Coil to create earthquakes in mines in China, just to sell more Australian coal. It makes sense, isn't it.

of course russia is in it as well and many other nations.

yes, australia is trying to sell all its brown coal. we have a big deposit. the one reason the australian government does not promote solar and wind energy.
You know , all politicans are from the same vein

 

[Ike]

@LeBrok

Again, reductio ad rediculum. You could have also said that Africans induced the Ice age to sell more land in Greece to Gauls. And that that's where Dorians appeared from.

 

[LeBrok]

@LeBrok

Again, reductio ad rediculum. You could have also said that Africans induced the Ice age to sell more land in Greece to Gauls. And that that's where Dorians appeared from.

Now you see where conspiracy theories can bring us. Let's keep the facts straight.

 

[Ike]

Where do you see conspiracy? Everything is logical. People need money, and they sell drugs, guns, people. It happened all throughout the history. You're the one who's introducing an extraordinary and naive thesis that it doesn't happen just because someone says they're not doing it. You're the one who wants us to believe that things are different than what they've always been. Well I'm not convinced. You'll have to do a lot better than this if you're speaking for US.

 

[LeBrok]

Where do you see conspiracy? Everything is logical. People need money, and they sell drugs, guns, people. It happened all throughout the history. You're the one who's introducing an extraordinary and naive thesis that it doesn't happen just because someone says they're not doing it. You're the one who wants us to believe that things are different than what they've always been. Well I'm not convinced. You'll have to do a lot better than this if you're speaking for US.

It is also logical to conclude that there are many power centers around this planet trying to influence the world. We have US, Russia, China, India, Germany and Israel all selling weapons. You have also oil money, diamond money, bank money, drug money pulling in all directions. We have governments of big countries pulling other ways. We have religious leaders influencing outcomes in Middle East too. We have hundreds of billionaires on this planet who can throw big money at many problems, and according to their point of view.
On top of it we have tyrants and millions of hungry, disappointed and angry people in this mix.
It is very illogical to conclude that US has any substantial control over all this mess.

It is interesting that conspiracy theorists always see someone in control of any station on this planet. Thinking, nothing could happen on this world without someone deciding about everything. I find it very spiritual. It is like our ancestors, not knowing how world works, gave gods control over thunders. Likewise today, not knowing how Syrian war started, people need to invent someone in control, someone who started it. So for the lack of any evidence, you've chosen US with CIA, in control of Syrian conflict. How spiritual of you.

Your logic would be fine if CIA wasn't the one which initiated the conflict in Syria. If there wasn't for US, there would be no Syrian war, no conflict, no rebels, probably just students demonstrating from time to time, which happens all over the world.

Isn't it logical that US wants stability in ME to get cheap oil? Every time there is a conflict in ME oil prices are going up.
Isn't it logical that if US don't sell weapons to Syria they don't keep sides. Now you have reluctant US and West to attack Assad, although he buys arms in Russia. What does that tell you?
Isn't it possible that sometimes angry and disappointed people can rebel on their own?
Isn't it logical that electronic companies, which are many times richer than arms companies these days, can influence world more with their billions? They want peace, because in times of peace and prosperity they sell more electronics and get richer. Also in times of peace and production bankers make more money, because people have jobs and can borrow money from banks to buy homes, cars and what's not. Also bankers who invested money in Syria are losing their billions now when country is in ruin, nobody works and Assad is running out of money too. Are the bankers influential, or is it just a mirage in conspirator's eyes.

Isn't it also logical to conclude that very often, on this planet, things can happen because of human incompetence and stupidity, lack of control and short sightedness? Humans are not perfect, expect unexpected and a lot of mess.

 

[Ike]

You're talking plenty about what's logical and what illogical, and not giving any facts. Facts are dead people, economic indexes, and number of wars US has led, all with the same outcomes. You're trying to divert the course of conversation into subjective domain, where we would debate about who's opinion is more logical or who's president is more democratic. I already know your opinion and your interpretations and rationalizations of historical events. You're not going anywhere with it. You have devised a very complex logical pattern trying to explain what is obvious. You would be more convincing if you gave some actual examples of US DoS politics producing positive effects (if there are any).

As for what US is doing, Einstein said "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." I don't believe they are insane. I think they know perfectly well what are they doing.

p.s. I would be very happy if I'm proven wrong, and if it eventually shows up that they are just insane.

 

[Fire Haired]

Ike u obviously have a dis like of america and want to say it is a imperialistic power. U need to realize America does not want to kill innocent people or steal oil. Modern western countries aren't even close to as bad as they where 100 or 200 years ago. South Korea is very grateful for the war we lead there if we did not they would be as bad off as the North Koreans i don't think i need to explain that to u. In Vietnam just looking at the statics the US military was very successful in fighting but not winning the war. Because it would need up as a huge nuclear war so the US was not really fighting to win or for anything. I think it was good to stop evil communist expansion but if ur not going in there to win why be there. I don't know that much about the wars in Yugoslavia i know the one in the early 1990's in Kuwait was successful.

For the recent wars in the mid east even though i have grown up hearing about them i don't know that much about specific's. I think it was good to take out saddem just because he was an evil dictator and a threat i think we should have made Iraq a colony as crazy as that sounds in someway stop any type of corrupt person from taking power or add the country ourselfs. This is totally against founding American ideals but we cant trust the people with the government they always end up killing each other like in Syria. I think it was the right thing to do to fight against terrorist groups mainly because of 9-11. We have been the most influencle and powerful nation including in military since world war 2. In the cold war we represented the free world like the Soviet Union represented the Communist world. We cant take over 3,000 of our people being killed by terrorist and not retaliate. Those terrorist are blowing people up all the time it is good to get a super power military to chase them down.

Like i said i don't know the specific's but i would bet America did not go all out or do as well as we could. I bet we were not aggressive enough either. So i don't really know what to say about those wars but the intention to start them is good i don't know if we fought them the right way.

I think the most important thing for America right now when it comes to foreign wars and threats. Is for the people to wake up. And realize right now we are in a worse position than in 1962 and during the prime of the cold war. Russia is just as big as a threat as the Soviet Union their just disguised. China and North Korea deifntley are as big threats as Soviet Union maybe their not being as aggressive as the USSR during the cold war. The whole Muslim world is a huge threat most of it is run by people who would love to see all of our heads on stakes and i mean all westerns not just Americans so u too. The American people needs to know what is happening China, Russia, Muslim World=bad.

Lebrok before has taken this as i hate Muslims. I am just looking at the facts they are a huge threat.

 

[LeBrok]

You're talking plenty about what's logical and what illogical, and not giving any facts. Facts are dead people, economic indexes, and number of wars US has led, all with the same outcomes.

1. War with Germany - US won. Germany is now democratic and everybody in Europe likes them these days.
2. War with Japan - US won. Japan is now democratic monarchy, and one of richest country in Asia.
3. Korean war - US and coalition managed to keep half of the peninsula and gave start to South Korea. South Korea is successful and democratic. North Korea is dictatorship nightmare, poor, with every tenth citizen in labour camps.
4. Vietnam - US withdrawn from lack of public support for the war. Till today Vietnam is one of poorest in Asia, only recently implementing reforms of free market, capitalism and liberalization of life and politics. (hmm, so many millions died for communist ideas which now are not in fashion and forgotten). Perhaps they should admitted finally they were wrong and apologize to the public. You can say communists won this round
5. First Iraq war - Saddam Hussein and Iraqi army defeated, Kuwait liberated and prosperous again.
6. Second Iraq war - Saddam dead, Iraqis learning democracy and have a chance to decide about nature of their country. It is a mess for now but they are free. Second war was not necessary if Bush senior finished Saddam in the first one.
7. Afghanistan, Taliban defeated, Afghan women liberated. Unfortunately there is no will in the west to fight long war and no help from Pakistan in fighting Taliban. Main terrorist Osama Bin Laden is dead, together with many of his seconds in command. No big terrorist attack in US since 9/11. But at the end of the day Taliban might be in power again Afghanistan if West quits.
8. Cold War - Soviet Block quits. No money, no will, no freedoms. Capitalism wins, with US as the leader. Remnants of communism, North Korea and Cuba, are one of poorest countries in the world, and people are the least free.

So what the heck by "same outcomes" you mean? If you mean that in all of the conflicts people died then it is the same outcome for all the wars since beginning of humankind (with Serbian wars included), and it doesn't relate only or specially to USA.

gave some actual examples of US DoS politics producing positive effects (if there are any).

You are alive thanks to US finishing Germany (not taking anything from Russian effort). After Jews' Slavs were next to go into gas chambers. It means you or your parents. Just for this you should thank US, at least once in your life.
Would you rather see all Korea being like North Korea?
Would you rather see Imperial Japan ruling Asia till now?
Would you rather want Osama to be still alive, and Islamic terrorists attacking more european targets?
Would you rather see women not going to schools in Afghanistan?
Would you rather want to see million or more Yugoslavians killed in domestic war, if US didn't force Serbia army to stop?
Would you rather see Saddam controlling whole Middle East and dictating world oil prices?
would you rather want to see Soviets conquering and "helping" more countries in the world, rendering them poor, more poor and their citizens without freedom of speech?

I think they know perfectly well what are they doing.

Actually it is insane to think this, not knowing the facts and basing your conclusion on guessing, ala conspiracy. Human incompetence, bad planning, bad informations and wrong advisors are also viable options. You might also refresh on Chaos Theory. It is not logical (not knowing all the facts) to pick only one possibility.

p.s. I would be very happy if I'm proven wrong, and if it eventually shows up that they are just insane.

Did I give you enough details this time to think about? I'm expecting same in return.

 

[LeBrok]

Lebrok before has taken this as i hate Muslims. I am just looking at the facts they are a huge threat.

Is Fareed Zakaria and Dr Oz a big thread? And other hundreds of famous good American Muslims.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_Muslims

 

[nordicwarrior]

You may not want my honest assessment of Fareed. I will leave it at that.

 

[Sile]

[/I]
1. War with Germany - US won. Germany is now democratic and everybody in Europe likes them these days.
2. War with Japan - US won. Japan is now democratic monarchy, and one of richest country in Asia.
3. Korean war - US and coalition managed to keep half of the peninsula and gave start to South Korea. South Korea is successful and democratic. North Korea is dictatorship nightmare, poor, with every tenth citizen in labour camps.
4. Vietnam - US withdrawn from lack of public support for the war. Till today Vietnam is one of poorest in Asia, only recently implementing reforms of free market, capitalism and liberalization of life and politics. (hmm, so many millions died for communist ideas which now are not in fashion and forgotten). Perhaps they should admitted finally they were wrong and apologize to the public. You can say communists won this round
5. First Iraq war - Saddam Hussein and Iraqi army defeated, Kuwait liberated and prosperous again.
6. Second Iraq war - Saddam dead, Iraqis learning democracy and have a chance to decide about nature of their country. It is a mess for now but they are free. Second war was not necessary if Bush senior finished Saddam in the first one.
7. Afghanistan, Taliban defeated, Afghan women liberated. Unfortunately there is no will in the west to fight long war and no help from Pakistan in fighting Taliban. Main terrorist Osama Bin Laden is dead, together with many of his seconds in command. No big terrorist attack in US since 9/11. But at the end of the day Taliban might be in power again Afghanistan if West quits.
8. Cold War - Soviet Block quits. No money, no will, no freedoms. Capitalism wins, with US as the leader. Remnants of communism, North Korea and Cuba, are one of poorest countries in the world, and people are the least free.

/QUOTE]
lol, which history do you read?

1 - ditto
2 - did'nt need to nuke them, they where already defeated
3 - ditto
4 -US lost, there is no more of their ally south Vietnam
5 -ditto
6 - iran is still destroyed and still not a democracy
7- taliban was never defeated, no-one can defeat them
8- capitalism of the 60s and 70s ok...capitalism as from the 80s to today is corrupt in a major way...fault of globalization

 

[LeBrok]

2 - did'nt need to nuke them, they where already defeated

Irrelevant to this discussion. Otherwise before nukes, they were ready to die for the emperor their god, to the last one.
Americans didn't nuke Vietcong and look what happened. They've just kept coming even with no weapons.

6 - iran is still destroyed and still not a democracy

Before you teach me history check your geography.

7- taliban was never defeated, no-one can defeat them

Taliban was defeated in Afghanistan. The new attacks are coming every spring from Pakistan.

8- capitalism of the 60s and 70s ok...capitalism as from the 80s to today is corrupt in a major way...fault of globalization

You are the first one with news like this. How did you figure it out?

 

[Ike]

Ike u obviously have a dis like of america and want to say it is a imperialistic power. U need to realize America does not want to kill innocent people or steal oil. Modern western countries aren't even close to as bad as they where 100 or 200 years ago. South Korea is very grateful for the war we lead there if we did not they would be as bad off as the North Koreans i don't think i need to explain that to u.

You missed to say that North Koreans and Chinese are acting like "bad assess" because they have seen what has happened in South Korea and they are afraid that same could happen to them.

In Vietnam just looking at the statics the US military was very successful in fighting but not winning the war. Because it would need up as a huge nuclear war so the US was not really fighting to win or for anything. I think it was good to stop evil communist expansion but if ur not going in there to win why be there. I don't know that much about the wars in Yugoslavia i know the one in the early 1990's in Kuwait was successful.

Just skip Vietnam war, it was total US/French fiasco, with or without winning. As for what Vietnamese think:
"They viewed the conflict as a colonial war, fought initially against France, then against America..."

I think it was good to take out saddem just because he was an evil dictator and a threat i think we should have made Iraq a colony as crazy as that sounds in someway stop any type of corrupt person from taking power or add the country ourselfs.

Adding? What country? Kuwait? That territory doesn't even have basic elements to support life. It has no drinking water. And what about why the war started? It was large debt of Iraq towards Kuwait (something like 50.000.000.000 USD), and about Kuwait digging Iraqi oil. Why did no one talk about that?

2. In the cold war we represented the free world like the Soviet Union represented the Communist world.

Does that imply that you were the free ones, and communists were not? Does that mean that if some country calls itself "Democratic Republic of Something" it is really democratic? Does that mean that if Norway changes it's name to Socialist Republic of Norway, you'll consider it as a possible threat? You people show strong notions to generalize things.

Like i said i don't know the specific's but i would bet America did not go all out or do as well as we could. I bet we were not aggressive enough either. So i don't really know what to say about those wars but the intention to start them is good i don't know if we fought them the right way.

You should join politics with this attitude. Go directly to Paul Wolfowitz, he'll fill you up for details and make you a millionaire on the fly.

I think the most important thing for America right now when it comes to foreign wars and threats. Is for the people to wake up. And realize right now we are in a worse position than in 1962 and during the prime of the cold war. Russia is just as big as a threat as the Soviet Union their just disguised. China and North Korea deifntley are as big threats as Soviet Union maybe their not being as aggressive as the USSR during the cold war. The whole Muslim world is a huge threat most of it is run by people who would love to see all of our heads on stakes and i mean all westerns not just Americans so u too. The American people needs to know what is happening China, Russia, Muslim World=bad.

Well, I think the opposite. I never saw Soviet Union fighting wars around US, but I see NATO all around Russia. It's almost encapsulated. Who is the aggressor there?

 

[Ike]

1. War with Germany - US won. Germany is now democratic and everybody in Europe likes them these days.
2. War with Japan - US won. Japan is now democratic monarchy, and one of richest country in Asia.
3. Korean war - US and coalition managed to keep half of the peninsula and gave start to South Korea. South Korea is successful and democratic. North Korea is dictatorship nightmare, poor, with every tenth citizen in labour camps.
4. Vietnam - US withdrawn from lack of public support for the war. Till today Vietnam is one of poorest in Asia, only recently implementing reforms of free market, capitalism and liberalization of life and politics. (hmm, so many millions died for communist ideas which now are not in fashion and forgotten). Perhaps they should admitted finally they were wrong and apologize to the public. You can say communists won this round
5. First Iraq war - Saddam Hussein and Iraqi army defeated, Kuwait liberated and prosperous again.
6. Second Iraq war - Saddam dead, Iraqis learning democracy and have a chance to decide about nature of their country. It is a mess for now but they are free. Second war was not necessary if Bush senior finished Saddam in the first one.
7. Afghanistan, Taliban defeated, Afghan women liberated. Unfortunately there is no will in the west to fight long war and no help from Pakistan in fighting Taliban. Main terrorist Osama Bin Laden is dead, together with many of his seconds in command. No big terrorist attack in US since 9/11. But at the end of the day Taliban might be in power again Afghanistan if West quits.
8. Cold War - Soviet Block quits. No money, no will, no freedoms. Capitalism wins, with US as the leader. Remnants of communism, North Korea and Cuba, are one of poorest countries in the world, and people are the least free.

So what the heck by "same outcomes" you mean? If you mean that in all of the conflicts people died then it is the same outcome for all the wars since beginning of humankind (with Serbian wars included), and it doesn't relate only or specially to USA.

1. US almost wasn't even in Europe war. War begun in 1939, but US made their famous "invasion" in 1944. That was the end of the war. Soviets asked them from help since the beginning. They promised in 1942. They didn't do it. They promised in 1943. They didn't do it. Soviets obliterated German army, entered Poland, Slovakia, Romania, East Germany and "OMG, Germans are loosing the war to commies, we must help 'em."

2. China became communist country in 1949. It's very symptomatic that that's the very same year when MacArthur handed the power to Japanese government.

3. Well, you call that democratic. I call the Usianized.

4. Please no Vietnam. You pushed the country directly from colonialism to 35 years of war, and now you're attributing the consequences to victims.

5. Kuwait is an administrative zone around the sink hole through which British suck the Arabian oil.

6. Murder of Hussein.

7. "It was around the time of this investment, incidentally, that Osama bin Laden made his first trip to the Khyber Pass, where he would soon join the Mujaheddin and the CIA in the holy war that expelled the Soviets from Afghanistan."

8. No money? After Hitler vandalized half of the Europe (interesting, just the Eastern half). We all know what Russia, Lithuania, Ukraine and Poland looked like after WW2. You can't compare it to Denmark and France (with which Hitler was delighted BTW). You're comparing scorched earth with bridges, theaters and museums.

Same motive - US fighting for "democracy".
Same pattern - US organize anti-governmental demonstrations and rebels
Same reaction - US people always wonder "Why do we need this war?"
Same outcome - more dead than in any other solution, country infrastructure and economy destroyed, industry exhausted and in possession of foreign corporations, imposed governments that serves US interests, youth indoctrinated and Usianized and military bases closer to Russia and China.

You are alive thanks to US finishing Germany (not taking anything from Russian effort). After Jews' Slavs were next to go into gas chambers. It means you or your parents. Just for this you should thank US, at least once in your life.

Yugoslavia was almost free when US found it "reasonable to take serious participation in Europe war". It freed by itself. Soviets helped us free some northern parts of the country, and we are very grateful for that. It's interesting that many street names changed with "democrats" in Belgrade. Streets of General Zdanov and Marshall Tolbuhin (whose armies participated d in liberation of Belgrade ), "JNA street" (which liberated the country), Boulevard of Anti-Fascist Council, etc. Self-proclaimed democrats are eager to erase every remnant of that times, and to make us forget the heroic battle and help of Russian and Soviet peoplea gains the fascism. They'd probably like us to forget on whose side was Croatia in WW2, what it did, and whose ideas it is administrating even today backed by Germany(again) and US.

Yeah, we know exactly whose bombs killed the most civilians during WW2, and I was not surprise when they did it again.

Would you rather see all Korea being like North Korea?
Would you rather see Imperial Japan ruling Asia till now?
Would you rather want Osama to be still alive, and Islamic terrorists attacking more european targets?
Would you rather see women not going to schools in Afghanistan?
Would you rather want to see million or more Yugoslavians killed in domestic war, if US didn't force Serbia army to stop?
Would you rather see Saddam controlling whole Middle East and dictating world oil prices?
would you rather want to see Soviets conquering and "helping" more countries in the world, rendering them poor, more poor and their citizens without freedom of speech?

1. North Korea wouldn't be in situation like this if there wasn't for US "aid".

2. I'm not supporting Hitler nor his allies.

3.Osama's dad was a billionaire, and as I'm informed we could ask Bush because two families are familiar with each other.

4. Yeah, like we think US is there for human rights
" Afghanistan has been the greatest illicit opium producer in the entire world, ahead of Burma (Myanmar), the "Golden Triangle", and Latin America since 1992, excluding the year 2001. Afghanistan is the main producer of opium in the "Golden Crescent". Opium production in Afghanistan has been on the rise since U.S. occupation started in 2001".

5. Serbs weren't forced to stop, because they didn't go anywhere. They were where thay have always been, and US cleansed them. Get hold of the facts.

6. What's the difference. It is now being controlled by paper dollar of US. Some OPEC countries are already questioning this practice, and US is turning an evil-eye on them just for a thought.

7. Soviets may be poor in money or gold, but there are much more valuable things in life that material wealth. We know who made most money in WW1, we know who sold guns to both Hitler and Stalin, and who issued bonds. It's no miracle some countries are rich, and some decent countries are poor

Actually it is insane to think this, not knowing the facts and basing your conclusion on guessing, ala conspiracy. Human incompetence, bad planning, bad informations and wrong advisors are also viable options. You might also refresh on Chaos Theory. It is not logical (not knowing all the facts) to pick only one possibility.

OK, then they are just insane.

 

[Fire Haired]

You missed to say that North Koreans and Chinese are acting like "bad assess" because they have seen what has happened in South Korea and they are afraid that same could happen to them.

Right there u just showed ur obliviously biased. Seriosuly u are going to defend china and north korea and somehow say their life is better than south koreans. This is such a stupid argument i will just ask u to research urself. I have meet many south Koreans and their lives are just as well off as Americans and are gratful we helped and look at america as a close friend.

Just skip Vietnam war, it was total US/French fiasco, with or without winning. As for what Vietnamese think:
"They viewed the conflict as a colonial war, fought initially against France, then against America..."

America fought for south vietnam so that they would not be conquered by a evil oppressive north Vietnamese soviet supported government. The war was just stop trying to pose america as having these dark secret evil imperialistic intentions.

Adding? What country? Kuwait? That territory doesn't even have basic elements to support life. It has no drinking water. And what about why the war started? It was large debt of Iraq towards Kuwait (something like 50.000.000.000 USD), and about Kuwait digging Iraqi oil. Why did no one talk about that?

What i know is Iraq under saddem tried to conquer Kuwait and the UN stopped him.

Does that imply that you were the free ones, and communists were not? Does that mean that if some country calls itself "Democratic Republic of Something" it is really democratic? Does that mean that if Norway changes it's name to Socialist Republic of Norway, you'll consider it as a possible threat? You people show strong notions to generalize things.

No but u know what i mean i dont think we need to argue if Soviet Union, China, Veitnam, and north korea were good guys or bad guys so thats why i call them communist bad guys. Dont u know what the cold war is it was not USSR defending agianst america advance and american oppression it was america defending agianst communist oppersion and conquering and oppression of people in eastern Europe and asia. They were the bad guys we were the good guys any one from Europe, latin america, africa whatever would agree with that. It was good guys aka the free world in Europe and America against the bad guys aka the communist.

You should join politics with this attitude. Go directly to Paul Wolfowitz, he'll fill you up for details and make you a millionaire on the fly.

If i was a politician i would study and know the specific's of the wars politicians aren't idiots they have incredible educations and its their job to know that stuff. And yes America intention was good but i doubt we fought the wars as best as we could.

Well, I think the opposite. I never saw Soviet Union fighting wars around US, but I see NATO all around Russia. It's almost encapsulated. Who is the aggressor there?

America=good soviet union=bad END OF STORY.

 

[Fire Haired]

[/I]
1. War with Germany - US won. Germany is now democratic and everybody in Europe likes them these days.
2. War with Japan - US won. Japan is now democratic monarchy, and one of richest country in Asia.
3. Korean war - US and coalition managed to keep half of the peninsula and gave start to South Korea. South Korea is successful and democratic. North Korea is dictatorship nightmare, poor, with every tenth citizen in labour camps.
4. Vietnam - US withdrawn from lack of public support for the war. Till today Vietnam is one of poorest in Asia, only recently implementing reforms of free market, capitalism and liberalization of life and politics. (hmm, so many millions died for communist ideas which now are not in fashion and forgotten). Perhaps they should admitted finally they were wrong and apologize to the public. You can say communists won this round
5. First Iraq war - Saddam Hussein and Iraqi army defeated, Kuwait liberated and prosperous again.
6. Second Iraq war - Saddam dead, Iraqis learning democracy and have a chance to decide about nature of their country. It is a mess for now but they are free. Second war was not necessary if Bush senior finished Saddam in the first one.
7. Afghanistan, Taliban defeated, Afghan women liberated. Unfortunately there is no will in the west to fight long war and no help from Pakistan in fighting Taliban. Main terrorist Osama Bin Laden is dead, together with many of his seconds in command. No big terrorist attack in US since 9/11. But at the end of the day Taliban might be in power again Afghanistan if West quits.
8. Cold War - Soviet Block quits. No money, no will, no freedoms. Capitalism wins, with US as the leader. Remnants of communism, North Korea and Cuba, are one of poorest countries in the world, and people are the least free.

/QUOTE]
lol, which history do you read?

1 - ditto
2 - did'nt need to nuke them, they where already defeated
3 - ditto
4 -US lost, there is no more of their ally south Vietnam
5 -ditto
6 - iran is still destroyed and still not a democracy
7- taliban was never defeated, no-one can defeat them
8- capitalism of the 60s and 70s ok...capitalism as from the 80s to today is corrupt in a major way...fault of globalization

I agree with pretty much everything ur saying finally someone shows the truth.

 

[LeBrok]

I'm sorry but you lost track of argument. All these points are listed where response to your "Same outcomes of US wars", which showed different outcomes, like victories versus defeets, some going according to plan, some creating unexpected mess.
What you posted instead is your feelings about these points, with random thoughts.

Do you agree or not that wars, US was involved in, had different outcomes?
If you think US lost all of them, as you seem insinuating, please argument accordingly.

1. US almost wasn't even in Europe war. War begun in 1939, but US made their famous "invasion" in 1944. That was the end of the war. Soviets asked them from help since the beginning. They promised in 1942. They didn't do it. They promised in 1943. They didn't do it. Soviets obliterated German army, entered Poland, Slovakia, Romania, East Germany and "OMG, Germans are loosing the war to commies, we must help 'em."

I have a book recommendation for you: Russia's Life Saver: Lend-Lease Aid to the USSR

• Take it from Zhukov:
  "It is now said that the Allies never helped us . . . However, one cannot deny that the Americans gave us so much material, without which we could not have formed our reserves and could not have continued the war . . . we had no explosives and powder. There was none to equip rifle bullets. The Americans actually came to our assistance with powder and explosives. And how much sheet steel did they give us. We really could not have quickly put right our production of tanks if the Americans had not helped with steel. And today it seems as though we had all this ourselves in abundance."
  
  - Favorite Russian troops' food was American canned meat, Tushonka.
  - Remember Stalin Organs aka Katiusha? They were installed on Studebaker trucks from USA. Tens of thousand of trucks sent to Soviets.
  - almost all aviation fuel and radio equipment (for T34s) was from the US and England.
  - tons of rubber and steel supplies.
  Without western help Russians would die of hunger first than win the war.
  -Plus US crippled German factory production with bombings, destroyed refineries in Romania and tied up 1/3 of wehrmacht forces in the west.
  

You don't respect my point of view, but you should respect the best russian general.

2. China became communist country in 1949. It's very symptomatic that that's the very same year when MacArthur handed the power to Japanese government.

Whoo hoo, more conspiracy...

3. Well, you call that democratic. I call the Usianized.

Right, nothing like Yugoslavian communist system. The rest is deep shi-t. What about outcome of US war?
Japan is prosperous, unlike countries who were conquered by Russia.

4. Please no Vietnam. You pushed the country directly from colonialism to 35 years of war, and now you're attributing the consequences to victims.

lol, yes play the victim game. Singapore and hong kong was colonized to and look at them now. They've chosen the correct path, the free market capitalism. Who chooses communism is poor. Don't you see the pattern?

5. Kuwait is an administrative zone around the sink hole through which British suck the Arabian oil.

No idea what you mean.
Outcome of US wars?

6. Murder of Hussein.

By his own people. That's how they loved him, the friendly tyrant.

7. "It was around the time of this investment, incidentally, that Osama bin Laden made his first trip to the Khyber Pass, where he would soon join the Mujaheddin and the CIA in the holy war that expelled the Soviets from Afghanistan."

Again, what this has to do with "outcome of US wars"?

8. No money? After Hitler vandalized half of the Europe (interesting, just the Eastern half). We all know what Russia, Lithuania, Ukraine and Poland looked like after WW2. You can't compare it to Denmark and France (with which Hitler was delighted BTW). You're comparing scorched earth with bridges, theaters and museums.
Germany was scorched too, and look, West Germany was prosperous, East Germany poor and enslaved. Day before Gorbachev opened the Berlin wall, hundreds of thousand East Germans were standing by the gates!
There were no West Germans running away to East Germany. Can't you see the pattern?


Finally to the point:

Same motive - US fighting for "democracy".

No, priority is to fight enemy like communists or nazis, not to change political system. Is Kuwait democratic?
If democracy is US way to rule the world, theyn why is Serbia democratic now? Is US controlling Serbia now?
Plot is thickening...

Same pattern - US organize anti-governmental demonstrations and rebels

Show me examples for these countries, Germany, Vietnam, North Korea, Japan, etc

Same reaction - US people always wonder "Why do we need this war?"

I'm sure you had this reaction in Yugoslavia. Sort of like same pattern "people are killed in wars" all wars.

Same outcome - more dead than in any other solution, country infrastructure and economy destroyed, industry exhausted and in possession of foreign corporations, imposed governments that serves US interests, youth indoctrinated and Usianized and military bases closer to Russia and China.

Again, you are describing pattern of all wars, and not anything particular to USA.

1. North Korea wouldn't be in situation like this if there wasn't for US "aid".

Didn't they have good communist friends Russia and China? South Korea has chosen free market capitalism and is rich now. Can't you see the pattern again? Capitalism = rich, communism = poor and enslaved.

2. I'm not supporting Hitler nor his allies.

I've never suggested that.

3.Osama's dad was a billionaire, and as I'm informed we could ask Bush because two families are familiar with each other.

So Bush asked Obama to kill Osama, because he knew too much? Plot thickens...

4. Yeah, like we think US is there for human rights
" Afghanistan has been the greatest illicit opium producer in the entire world, ahead of Burma (Myanmar), the "Golden Triangle", and Latin America since 1992, excluding the year 2001. Afghanistan is the main producer of opium in the "Golden Crescent". Opium production in Afghanistan has been on the rise since U.S. occupation started in 2001".

Yeh, isn't it obvious! Now Americans can pay off the big deficit!
So again, sneaky Americans want to give Afghans freedoms and democracy and spend billions of doolars to protect them from Taliban, just to be able to steal their opium. Now it makes sense...

5. Serbs weren't forced to stop, because they didn't go anywhere. They were where thay have always been, and US cleansed them. Get hold of the facts.

Right after you cleansed the Bosniaks and Croats.

6. What's the difference. It is now being controlled by paper dollar of US. Some OPEC countries are already questioning this practice, and US is turning an evil-eye on them just for a thought.

This thought doesn't make sense. US is buying most of its oil, and domestic oil has to be paid at market prices. US wants cheap oil to get out of recession now. OPEC (is not free market) sets prices by themselves, Russians too. 80% of world's oil is in governments' hands, Russians, Venezuela, OPEC, they need high oil prices to pay their debts and deficits. And yes, even with oil riches many countries are in big debts.

7. Soviets may be poor in money or gold, but there are much more valuable things in life that material wealth. We know who made most money in WW1, we know who sold guns to both Hitler and Stalin, and who issued bonds. It's no miracle some countries are rich, and some decent countries are poor

I'm sorry but you have no idea how economy works. It's not about money, it's about production! You produce - you have goods to buy. You don't produce - you have nothing to buy. You can print billions of dollars, but if you don't produce you will buy nothing for your paper money, or gold money. Capitalism is producing a lot, that's why countries with capitalist economy are rich. Communism never produced much, therefore people were poor (nothing to buy). People were unhappy and demanded changes, so communists introduced dictatorship restrictions for citizens. That's why every attempt on communism ended up with dictatorship and tyranny for citizens.
Can you see the pattern? Every communist country was a dictatorship, either one man or one party, well, and poor.

 

[Ike]

I'm sorry but you lost track of argument. All these points are listed where response to your "Same outcomes of US wars", which showed different outcomes, like victories versus defeets, some going according to plan, some creating unexpected mess.
What you posted instead is your feelings about these points, with random thoughts.

You're the one who purposely involved WW2 where whole world was in and made a confusion. You know very well that I was initially talking about other US wars. Random thoughts? Duhh...

I've never said that US lost any war. It is not about the victory or defeat. It is not about how you interpreted the outcome - do Vietnamese think they won, or do Americans, I simply don't care. I'm talking about situation down on Earth. I don't care about mental interpretations of people involved.

Do you agree or not that wars, US was involved in, had different outcomes?
If you think US lost all of them, as you seem insinuating, please argument accordingly.

Where the heck have you seen that I ever said that US lost any war?! From my every post you can clearly see that it pulled off almost everything it could from every war involved.

I have a book recommendation for you: Russia's Life Saver: Lend-Lease Aid to the USSR
Take it from Zhukov:
"It is now said that the Allies never helped us . . . However, one cannot deny that the Americans gave us so much material, without which we could not have formed our reserves and could not have continued the war . . . we had no explosives and powder. There was none to equip rifle bullets. The Americans actually came to our assistance with powder and explosives. And how much sheet steel did they give us. We really could not have quickly put right our production of tanks if the Americans had not helped with steel. And today it seems as though we had all this ourselves in abundance."....

Why are you saying this? I know that. I already talked about that in my previous post. You think that came for free? Do YOU know how economy works, and why US got enormously richer after every WW?

If you label those actions as help, it can be also said that US helped Hitler during.

-Without western help Russians would die of hunger first than win the war.
-Plus US crippled German factory production with bombings, destroyed refineries in Romania and tied up 1/3 of wehrmacht forces in the west.

Yeah, so would Germans be stuck in Poland, if there was not for US petrol.

2. China became communist country in 1949. It's very symptomatic that that's the very same year when MacArthur handed the power to Japanese government.
Whoo hoo, more conspiracy...

No conspiracy. Just a fact. You're to contemplate it.

3. Well, you call that democratic. I call the Usianized.
Right, nothing like Yugoslavian communist system. The rest is deep shi-t. What about outcome of US war?

What about Yugoslavian system? Dude, I don't know what country did you live in, and what did some people who said they were communists did to you, but trust me it seems they were not communist, just as same as todays countries call themselves 'democratic', are totally not like that.

Japan is prosperous, unlike countries who were conquered by Russia.

It seems you just hate Russia. It doesn't have anything with communism. And that you mentally associated your hate towards Russia to anything that has communist/socialist denotation. You have programmed yourself successfully. That's not being open minded.

4. Please no Vietnam. You pushed the country directly from colonialism to 35 years of war, and now you're attributing the consequences to victims.
lol, yes play the victim game. Singapore and hong kong was colonized to and look at them now. They've chosen the correct path, the free market capitalism. Who chooses communism is poor. Don't you see the pattern?

You seem to be obsessed with money. And you value peoples lives with amount money they have. What's with that? I don't get it. You should seriously address that. Don't do it anymore - for your own sake, for your kids sake and for world prosperity sake. Change is slow, but possible.

And stop mocking poor Vietnamese. Is wasn't Vietnamese army on US soil, but opposite. It wasn't Vietnamese army dropping chemical weapons on US soil, but opposite. It wasn't US kids that were born with mutations but Vietnamese. Why are you being so mean?

6. Murder of Hussein.
By his own people. That's how they loved him, the friendly tyrant.

I'm sure that in every country you can find a group of men that wants president dead. Especially if country is at war, and loaded with guns, and dead people whose relatives seek conciliation. I'm sure that you can find lot of Americans who'd hang Obama.

Again, what this has to do with "outcome of US wars"?

I've already told you everything about those wars. Let me start again, and concentrate on what's most important.
"Same outcome - more dead than in any other solution, country infrastructure and economy destroyed, industry exhausted and in possession of foreign corporations, imposed governments that serves US interests, youth indoctrinated and Usianized and military bases closer to Russia and China."

Germany was scorched too, and look, West Germany was prosperous, East Germany poor and enslaved. Day before Gorbachev opened the Berlin wall, hundreds of thousand East Germans were standing by the gates!
There were no West Germans running away to East Germany. Can't you see the pattern?

Yeah, the west Germany was scorched ? Did they build all those 18/9th century building and bridges after WW2. There was almost no war in west Germany. US and UK never really fought Hitler. What happened at Dunkirk? It is now known that Churchill was sorry for not using A-boms on Soviets while they could, before USSR built one.

Finally to the point:
Same motive - US fighting for "democracy".
No, priority is to fight enemy like communists or nazis, not to change political system. Is Kuwait democratic?

I don't believe what aggressor says. Like we didn't believe Hitler, we should not believe Americans. Why do you? You always believe what someone says to you? I don't think so. So, why do you take for granted the 'vindications for war'?

If democracy is US way to rule the world, theyn why is Serbia democratic now? Is US controlling Serbia now?

Sadly but it isn't. There has been CIA organized revolution in Serbia, and they got hold of the government in 2000.

Again, you are describing pattern of all wars, and not anything particular to USA.

Yes, but US is the one who is starting them all. US is the one who is controlling the government. US corporations enter the country, and monopolize markets...

1. North Korea wouldn't be in situation like this if there wasn't for US "aid".
Didn't they have good communist friends Russia and China? South Korea has chosen free market capitalism and is rich now. Can't you see the pattern again? Capitalism = rich, communism = poor and enslaved.

So it's all about free market? Where US can dominate the market with it's enormous wealth that it made in big wars?

3.Osama's dad was a billionaire, and as I'm informed we could ask Bush because two families are familiar with each other.
So Bush asked Obama to kill Osama, because he knew too much? Plot thickens...

What plot? There is no plot. It is obvious that Bush and Osama are old acquaintances, and they must know what was it all about.

4. Yeah, like we think US is there for human rights
" Afghanistan has been the greatest illicit opium producer in the entire world, ahead of Burma (Myanmar), the "Golden Triangle", and Latin America since 1992, excluding the year 2001. Afghanistan is the main producer of opium in the "Golden Crescent". Opium production in Afghanistan has been on the rise since U.S. occupation started in 2001".
Yeh, isn't it obvious! Now Americans can pay off the big deficit!
So again, sneaky Americans want to give Afghans freedoms and democracy and spend billions of doolars to protect them from Taliban, just to be able to steal their opium. Now it makes sense...

They just want the resources. Why are you thinking that money has a certain magical value, and that it is valued more that real, material, perceptible goods like cocaine or heroin? They print money....on HP and Epson printer. They don't care about deficit. That number of $12343245 is of no importance. It is important that you have actual control on the field.

5. Serbs weren't forced to stop, because they didn't go anywhere. They were where thay have always been, and US cleansed them. Get hold of the facts.
Right after you cleansed the Bosniaks and Croats.

You obviously haven't even seen the video I've sent you. By saying things like this, you've proven that you have absolutely no idea what has happened on the territory of Yugoslavia. With you being like that, there is no point of speaking about the subject. Are you ever going to inform yourself?

I'm sorry but you have no idea how economy works. It's not about money, it's about production! You produce - you have goods to buy. You don't produce - you have nothing to buy. You can print billions of dollars, but if you don't produce you will buy nothing for your paper money, or gold money. Capitalism is producing a lot, that's why countries with capitalist economy are rich. Communism never produced much, therefore people were poor (nothing to buy). People were unhappy and demanded changes, so communists introduced dictatorship restrictions for citizens. That's why every attempt on communism ended up with dictatorship and tyranny for citizens.
Can you see the pattern? Every communist country was a dictatorship, either one man or one party, well, and poor.

Yes, I know that economy that West created is about money and production. If you don't produce, you make no money and you die, just like sharks - when they stop swimming they die. They got you in debts, and once you lose your job you're out. That's why you have to be humble to your superiors, that made it possible for you to keep your house, your wife and your kids. That's why you work all day till dusk while some other go to Bahamas.

Speaking about economy you also forgot to mention the surplus/deficit relation. Because some countries live in wealth other countries have no food. You look like a Darwinist who thinks that better and stronger should survive, while others should die, and you're pestering me about communism because I think that those people should be given peace and food.