MDLP K11 Result : Unetice/Tumulus/Urnfield into Northwestern Europe?

Yes, but where the Tumulus culture had it's biggest effect there it enhanced the Yamna. And that's in the North Sea area. (And probably the sum gets higher in the areas around the North Sea which had already a CW influence, like North Dutch, North Germany, Denmark).

It's general accepted that the formation of the modern European was a at the end of the Bronze Age a fait accompli. And looking at the historical facts the dynamics at that time came from central Europe and not from the European fringe like Finland. There was not an strong expending Bronze age culture from Finland, at least I'am not familiar with it.

The central European Tumulus was in stead very expansive......it affected especially the North Sea area (Low Countries, NW Germany,Denmark, Norway, England, Scotland).

Look at this picture from Haak e.a. (2015):


Halberstadt_LBA urnfield (the heir of tumulus) had absolute the most Yamna affinity in the Bronze Age period. Not surprisingly nr 1 in my MDLP K11 ancient admixture.....

I think I didn't express myself very well. The proximity of Finland isn't significant due to cultural innovation emanating from the north-east. Rather, Finland is the very nucleus of Corded Ware ancestry. It's the absence of foreign influence that makes northern Fennoscandians the closest descendants of Corded Ware. The principal locale of the Nordic Bronze Age in present day Sweden is already relatively less like CW as compared to Norway.

The Halberstadt-Sonntagsfeld Iron Age individual is in all likelihood representative of the greater Central-North European plain. Case in point, he wasn't a warrior chief - he was originally assigned to the local LBK Neolithic stratum due to the relative poverty of grave goods.
 
I think I didn't express myself very well. The proximity of Finland isn't significant due to cultural innovation emanating from the north-east. Rather, Finland is the very nucleus of Corded Ware ancestry. It's the absence of foreign influence that makes northern Fennoscandians the closest descendants of Corded Ware. The principal locale of the Nordic Bronze Age in present day Sweden is already relatively less like CW as compared to Norway.

The Halberstadt-Sonntagsfeld Iron Age individual is in all likelihood representative of the greater Central-North European plain. Case in point, he wasn't a warrior chief - he was originally assigned to the local LBK Neolithic stratum due to the relative poverty of grave goods.

See my previous posting, ends with the statement: "This explains to me why after corded ware (=North European Plain), trough the tumulus and urnfield cultures, central europe and northwestern Europe got an extra Yamna impuls. In the end this explains why modern Norway got more Steppe genes than modern Belarus!"
 
See my previous posting, ends with the statement: "This explains to me why after corded ware (=North European Plain), trough the tumulus and urnfield cultures, central europe and northwestern Europe got an extra Yamna impuls. In the end this explains why modern Norway got more Steppe genes than modern Belarus!"

Let just preface my post by saying that I want whatever Helle Vandkilde is having :). This abstract went way over my head it seems - can't say I understood what she's trying to say there.

I guess the reason I find it hard to follow your line of thought is because the Corded Ware affinity in present day northern Europeans is significantly reduced across the board, with the sole exception of Finland. Why would the Tumulus culture with its core in Bohemia-Bavaria have brought additional Corded Ware genes, when we'd actually need a reduction of affinity over the course of the later metal ages to arrive at modern levels?
 
Let just preface my post by saying that I want whatever Helle Vandkilde is having :). This abstract went way over my head it seems - can't say I understood what she's trying to say there.

I guess the reason I find it hard to follow your line of thought is because the Corded Ware affinity in present day northern Europeans is significantly reduced across the board, with the sole exception of Finland. Why would the Tumulus culture with its core in Bohemia-Bavaria have brought additional Corded Ware genes, when we'd actually need a reduction of affinity over the course of the later metal ages to arrive at modern levels?

We can see that Tumulus is derived from the Carphatian Bronze Age hub. Crossroads Steppe and Mycenaean routes. As you can see in the picture above the Carpathian hub is partly rooted in most western corner Steppe Zone.

This is what S.A. Grigoryev stated about the relationship Steppe and Tumulus:
" During XVI-XV centuries artefacts closely related to Seyma tradition became typical for hoards in Pannonia, France and England. Thus, these bronzes distribution marks the moving of Celts.
A new wave of newcomers left F’odorovo culture sites. Some include usually this culture, together with Alakul culture, in Andronovo culture. However, all attempts to find its local roots had no success. But these roots are in North-Western Iran and South Azerbaijan: cremation in stone boxes and cysts under mounds, clay props for hearth, oval dishes, polished ware. Complex of metal have analogies in Circumpontic area, but first of all, in Sumbar culture in South-Western Turkmenistan. Potteries from Central Asia have been found in some F’odorovo sites.
Typical F’odorovo artefacts are known up to Dnieper river. However, a contact of F’odorovo tribes with first wave of newcomers is more important for us. As a result of this contact new cultures were formed, which fix this contact and a gradual displacement of these populations to the West: Chernoozerie in Irtish basin, Cherkaskul in the Urals, Suskan and Prikazanskaia in Volga-Kama region, Pozdniakovo in Oka basin. These cultures combine cremation and inhumation, mounds and flat burials, bronzes of Seyma and F’odorovo types.
Next moving of these tribes to the West leads to forming of Sosnitzkaia culture on the left-bank of Dnieper, Trzciniec-Komarov culture from Dnieper to Vistula and Tumulus culture in Central and Northern Europe. These cultures reflect localisation of Balts, Slavs and Germans."

So central and nordic/nw Europe got an extra Steppe influx. See the scores of Norway and Scotland (Haak 2015).

That doesn't exclude your statement that in Central Europe between the Bronze Age and nowadays, trough other population developments, the Yamna percentage is somewhat been lowered.
 
Let just preface my post by saying that I want whatever Helle Vandkilde is having :). This abstract went way over my head it seems - can't say I understood what she's trying to say there.

I guess the reason I find it hard to follow your line of thought is because the Corded Ware affinity in present day northern Europeans is significantly reduced across the board, with the sole exception of Finland. Why would the Tumulus culture with its core in Bohemia-Bavaria have brought additional Corded Ware genes, when we'd actually need a reduction of affinity over the course of the later metal ages to arrive at modern levels?

And one add Markoz, see also my MDLP K11 result this comes close to Halbertstadt-LBA (from Tumulus heir Urnfield culture) pretty high in Yamna (more than Unetice). So I'am a present day Northern European but with a significant Yamna level!
 
Let just preface my post by saying that I want whatever Helle Vandkilde is having :). This abstract went way over my head it seems - can't say I understood what she's trying to say there.

I guess the reason I find it hard to follow your line of thought is because the Corded Ware affinity in present day northern Europeans is significantly reduced across the board, with the sole exception of Finland. Why would the Tumulus culture with its core in Bohemia-Bavaria have brought additional Corded Ware genes, when we'd actually need a reduction of affinity over the course of the later metal ages to arrive at modern levels?

One other explanation which Dekaen has give is that certain Steppe populations, like the Seima-Turbino, may be not have been counted as Yamna but as EHG...


Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum
 
We can see that Tumulus is derived from the Carphatian Bronze Age hub. Crossroads Steppe and Mycenaean routes. As you can see in the picture above the Carpathian hub is partly rooted in most western corner Steppe Zone.

This is what S.A. Grigoryev stated about the relationship Steppe and Tumulus:
" During XVI-XV centuries artefacts closely related to Seyma tradition became typical for hoards in Pannonia, France and England. Thus, these bronzes distribution marks the moving of Celts.
A new wave of newcomers left F’odorovo culture sites. Some include usually this culture, together with Alakul culture, in Andronovo culture. However, all attempts to find its local roots had no success. But these roots are in North-Western Iran and South Azerbaijan: cremation in stone boxes and cysts under mounds, clay props for hearth, oval dishes, polished ware. Complex of metal have analogies in Circumpontic area, but first of all, in Sumbar culture in South-Western Turkmenistan. Potteries from Central Asia have been found in some F’odorovo sites.
Typical F’odorovo artefacts are known up to Dnieper river. However, a contact of F’odorovo tribes with first wave of newcomers is more important for us. As a result of this contact new cultures were formed, which fix this contact and a gradual displacement of these populations to the West: Chernoozerie in Irtish basin, Cherkaskul in the Urals, Suskan and Prikazanskaia in Volga-Kama region, Pozdniakovo in Oka basin. These cultures combine cremation and inhumation, mounds and flat burials, bronzes of Seyma and F’odorovo types.
Next moving of these tribes to the West leads to forming of Sosnitzkaia culture on the left-bank of Dnieper, Trzciniec-Komarov culture from Dnieper to Vistula and Tumulus culture in Central and Northern Europe. These cultures reflect localisation of Balts, Slavs and Germans."

So central and nordic/nw Europe got an extra Steppe influx. See the scores of Norway and Scotland (Haak 2015).

That doesn't exclude your statement that in Central Europe between the Bronze Age and nowadays, trough other population developments, the Yamna percentage is somewhat been lowered.

So what this means is that a new cultural impetus came from the steppe and fed into the Central European traditions among others via the Carpathian route? Well, this would certainly make the sudden appearance of the aforementioned artefact hoards less enigmatic, since these would have been rather atypical for Central Europe at the time. I hadn't heard of this connection until now, but then there isn't anyone more knowledgeable in matters Eastern European archaeology than Grigoryev so no doubt it's real.
 
So what this means is that a new cultural impetus came from the steppe and fed into the Central European traditions among others via the Carpathian route? Well, this would certainly make the sudden appearance of the aforementioned artefact hoards less enigmatic, since these would have been rather atypical for Central Europe at the time. I hadn't heard of this connection until now, but then there isn't anyone more knowledgeable in matters Eastern European archaeology than Grigoryev so no doubt it's real.

Yes that's exactly what I mean!
And with that culture there came also some genes I guess[emoji847]


Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum
 
So what this means is that a new cultural impetus came from the steppe and fed into the Central European traditions among others via the Carpathian route? Well, this would certainly make the sudden appearance of the aforementioned artefact hoards less enigmatic, since these would have been rather atypical for Central Europe at the time. I hadn't heard of this connection until now, but then there isn't anyone more knowledgeable in matters Eastern European archaeology than Grigoryev so no doubt it's real.

On Gedmatch there is a possibility to compare your autosomal DNA with the "golden oldies".
Today I compared it on different levels, this is the result:


1. Ust-Ishim Siberia 45kya up to 6cM, Omsk, Seima-Turbino
2. Clovis Montana 12,5 kya up to 4cM, Native America, ANE like
3. Loschbour Lux 8 kya up to 4cM, WHG
4. Nei Hungary 7,2 kya up to 4cM, Neoltihic Hungary
5. LBK Stuttgart 7 kya up to 3cM, Neolithic Southern Germany
6. Br 2 Hungary 3,2 kya up to 3cM Bronze Age Hungary
7. Rise Sweden 3,7 KY up to 3 cM R1b U106 Corded Ware Sweden


When you overlook this result you can easily see from where the wind blows.....from the east, cold Steppe blow! Especially number 1 is related to the Seima-Turbino. This is an old finding from Omsk. Omsk is the heartland of the Seima-Turbino. The second one, a native American, is related to ANE. Also far Northeastern Russia.
The others speak for themselves.

Maybe bias but according to me this fits in the Steppe-Carpathian-NW Europe pattern.
 
PS overlooked one the 5 cm one, makes it:

1. Ust-Ishim Siberia 45kya up to 6cM, Omsk, Seima-Turbino

2. Ne 1 Hungary 7,2 kya up to 5cM, Neoltihic Hungary

3. Clovis Montana 12,5 kya up to 4cM, Native America, ANE like
4. Loschbour Lux 8 kya up to 4cM, WHG
5. LBK Stuttgart 7 kya up to 3cM, Neolithic Southern Germany
6. Br 2 Hungary 3,2 kya up to 3cM Bronze Age Hungary
7. Rise Sweden 3,7 KY up to 3 cM R1b U106 Corded Ware Sweden
 
Is there a second wave of Steppe folk, from the outmost western stronghold of the Steppe folk at that time; the Carpathian (Hungarian) region into Central and NW Europe around 1600 BC?


Yes! Archeology and genetics come together....


"In Northern Germany and Denmark, where all the processes were underway but some at a later date than in more southerly areas, celts and spear-heads with a decorated socket inheriting directly Seima-Turbino traditions, appear only from the timecorresponding to stage Br B/1 in Southern Germany(Fig. 97) [Müller-Karpe, 1980, Taf. 501, 504, 506]"


https://www.academia.edu/3742220/Anc...nsk_Rifei_2002




As said I compared my aDNA trough Gedmatch with old aDNA material. This was the result:


1. Ust-Ishim Siberia 45kya up to 6cM, Omsk, Seima-Turbino
2. Ne 1 Hungary 7,2 kya up to 5cM, Neoltihic Hungary
3. Clovis Montana 12,5 kya up to 4cM, Native America, ANE like
4. Loschbour Lux 8 kya up to 4cM, WHG
5. LBK Stuttgart 7 kya up to 3cM, Neolithic Southern Germany
6. Br 2 Hungary 3,2 kya up to 3cM Bronze Age Hungary
7. Rise Sweden 3,7 KY up to 3 cM R1b U106 Corded Ware Sweden
 

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