APO276
Regular Member
Actually there's no evidence that the Etruscans came from the East. They could have come from Central Europe for example.
What data did you follow?
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Mediterranean migration layers in Sicily and southern Italy
- Thread starter Angela
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Actually there's no evidence that the Etruscans came from the East. They could have come from Central Europe for example.
What data did you follow?
You are focusing too much on this very inaccurate study with a ridicolous sampling. There are several studies who had the decency of sampling actual Greeks from Greece and show a widely different scenario.
Angela
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Iberian and French? ancient Neolithic samples, or those from the Balkans, for that matter, are absolutely not mainly WHG. In the early Neolithic Balkans, the farmers from Anatolia had picked up only about 1-2% WHG. In the Central European LBK a little more. By the Middle Neolithic in Spain WHG only reached 25% in the population. The Remedello samples from northern Italy, which already show cultural influence from the steppe, have less than that and no steppe genetic influences.
The only other ancient sample we have from Italy (other than Mesolithic), is a Bell Beaker sample from Parma. Autosomally, that sample seems to be either Northern Italian like(Bergamo), or perhaps Southern French like, or Iberian like. At any rate, certainly not anything very "steppe" like or Northern European like. Now, I know there has been additional gene flow in Italy, but precisely how much and when I don't know. At first glance it doesn't seem that the change has been very drastic in Parma, although Emilia plots south of Bergamo. What we need is ancient dna from Polada, Terramare, Villanova, Gaudo, Rinaldone, the Ligurians, the Latins, the Umbrians, the Italic tribes of the south, the tribes of Sicily, the Greek settlers of the south, the Etruscans, the Veneti, the Langobardi, the Byzantines, and the locals pre-and-post the Germanic invasions, the Gothic War, and the Saracens.
We have none of those: nothing from around Rome, nothing from southern Italy, nothing from Sicily. We have lots of modern uniparental data, which has often led population geneticists astray in other areas, but even that is often not very resolved for non-R1b lineages.
We won't get all of those, but without a good bit of it we won't really know what happened.
How, just to give a few examples, can we know that Roman slavery totally changed or even very significantly changed the autosomal signature of Southern Italians when we don't have a single sample of, say, a poor person from before the Republican Era for comparison.
Who, with any sense, or knowledge of the relevant history or archaeology, or even uniparental
markers, would believe that fool on Eurogenes today, who is either a sock or a reinforcement from Stormfront or sites like it, when he says that the entire population of my father's Po Valley was liquidated and replaced by Lombards! Emilia is 60% R1b U-152. We don't know much about the Lombards, but given where they came from I'll be very surprised if it turns out they were a majority U-152 population. We do know that they spoke a Germanic language, and we speak a Gallo-Romance language. I mean, did this guy leave academics behind at 12, and learn history from a Stormfront coloring book?
I could go on and on, but I hope I've said enough so you understand that there are a lot of charlatans around promoting baseless, unproven, and often deliberate distortions of fact not solely out of ignorance, although there's a lot of that, but out of sick, twisted, personal and racist agendas.
One word of advice: don't believe anything written on sites like forum biodiversity or theapricity until you've checked it from all possible angles yourself.
I really recommend Razib Khan's article, and you can find lots of threads on all sorts of Italian genetics issues through our search engine.
Ed. I just heard that someone on Eurogenes said southern Italians are darker and more "exotic" than Sardinians! SARDINIANS!!!!!!!!!! Honestly, do some people never leave their own countries? They live under a rock? You can't make this freaking stuff up.
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davef
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You're right, and LeBrok's chart further supports that Greek Islanders are different. I thought they were the same, but I was ignorant. I'll admit that.
Why not? Maybe Aegeans received further CHG-rich gene flow from Western Anatolia at some point. Their inflated CHG compared to both Southern Italy and Greece/Balkans could be responsible for their shrunken near-eastern component, which would otherwise fall in line nicely with Southern Italians.
Actually Crete already looks comparable in near-eastern affinity to several SI samples (e.g. Trapani, Matera, Lecce, etc.), and this with all its extra Caucasus-related stuff.
However this is just one of the possible scenarios and I have no strong opinion about this anyway; also making this kind of broad assumptions based on modern populations with their complex history and background is rather silly and inconclusive. We simply need more ancient genomes to get the full picture.
Diomedes
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So you guys say that mainland Greeks are different from those in the islands? What is the difference exactly and what is the origin of each group?
Also, you need to recall that Greece has among the roughest terrains in Europe and people tended to marry within their local societies.
Also, you need to recall that Greece has among the roughest terrains in Europe and people tended to marry within their local societies.
Hauteville
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Principe, there are not genetic evidences of recent MENA ancestors in Italy.
From the new Sarno paper:
"Besides a predominant Neolithic background, we identify traces of Post-Neolithic Levantine- and Caucasus-related ancestries, compatible with maritime Bronze-Age migrations."
And Sarno 2014:
"Together with the Berber E-M81, the occurrence of the Near-Eastern J1-M267 in Southern-European populations has been linked to population movements from the Near East through North-Africa, and particularly as a marker of the Islamic expansion over Southern-Europe (started approximately in the 8th century AD and lasted for more than 500 years). Fisher exact tests based on HGs frequencies have revealed the presence of haplogroup J1-M267 at significantly higher frequencies in both North-Africa and the Levant than in Sicily and Southern Italy (both P-values<0.001). However, the estimated age for Sicilian and Southern-Italian J1 haplotypes refers to the end of the Bronze Age (3261?1345 YBP), thus suggesting more ancient contributions from the East. Nevertheless, our time estimate does not necessarily coincide with the time of arrival of J1 in SSI; in fact a pre-existing differentiation could potentially backdate the time estimate here obtained.
...
However, sub-lineages of haplogroup J2 have been also associated with the Neolithic colonization of mainland Greece, Crete and Southern Italy [52], and our TMRCA estimates for J2-subhaplogroups (ranging from 3271?1157 YBP to 3767?1332 YBP) cannot exclude an earlier arrival of at least some of the J2 chromosomes in Sicily and Southern-Italy during Neolithic times."
And Graham and Coop 2013:
"A notable exception is that nearly all populations showed no significant heterogeneity of numbers of common ancestors with Italian samples, suggesting that most common ancestors shared with Italy lived longer ago than the time that structure within modern-day countries formed.
...
There is relatively little common ancestry shared between the Italian peninsula and other locations, and what there is seems to derive mostly from longer ago than 2,500 ya. An exception is that Italy and the neighboring Balkan populations share small but significant numbers of common ancestors in the last 1,500 years, as seen in Figures S16 and S17S17."
From the new Sarno paper:
"Besides a predominant Neolithic background, we identify traces of Post-Neolithic Levantine- and Caucasus-related ancestries, compatible with maritime Bronze-Age migrations."
And Sarno 2014:
"Together with the Berber E-M81, the occurrence of the Near-Eastern J1-M267 in Southern-European populations has been linked to population movements from the Near East through North-Africa, and particularly as a marker of the Islamic expansion over Southern-Europe (started approximately in the 8th century AD and lasted for more than 500 years). Fisher exact tests based on HGs frequencies have revealed the presence of haplogroup J1-M267 at significantly higher frequencies in both North-Africa and the Levant than in Sicily and Southern Italy (both P-values<0.001). However, the estimated age for Sicilian and Southern-Italian J1 haplotypes refers to the end of the Bronze Age (3261?1345 YBP), thus suggesting more ancient contributions from the East. Nevertheless, our time estimate does not necessarily coincide with the time of arrival of J1 in SSI; in fact a pre-existing differentiation could potentially backdate the time estimate here obtained.
...
However, sub-lineages of haplogroup J2 have been also associated with the Neolithic colonization of mainland Greece, Crete and Southern Italy [52], and our TMRCA estimates for J2-subhaplogroups (ranging from 3271?1157 YBP to 3767?1332 YBP) cannot exclude an earlier arrival of at least some of the J2 chromosomes in Sicily and Southern-Italy during Neolithic times."
And Graham and Coop 2013:
"A notable exception is that nearly all populations showed no significant heterogeneity of numbers of common ancestors with Italian samples, suggesting that most common ancestors shared with Italy lived longer ago than the time that structure within modern-day countries formed.
...
There is relatively little common ancestry shared between the Italian peninsula and other locations, and what there is seems to derive mostly from longer ago than 2,500 ya. An exception is that Italy and the neighboring Balkan populations share small but significant numbers of common ancestors in the last 1,500 years, as seen in Figures S16 and S17S17."
Why not? Maybe Aegeans received further CHG-rich gene flow from Western Anatolia at some point. Their somewhat inflated CHG compared to both Southern Italy and Greece/Balkans could be responsible for their shrunken near-eastern component, which would otherwise fall in line nicely with Southern Italians.
Actually Crete already looks on par in near-east affinity with several SI samples (e.g. Trapani, Matera, Lecce, etc.) despite its extra Caucasus-related input.
However this is just one of the possible scenarios and I have no strong opinion about this either way; also making this kind of broad assumptions based on modern populations with their multiple layers/complex unattested (for the most part) background is silly and ultimately inconclusive. We simply need more ancient genomes to get the full picture.
LeBrok
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Here is what I have. We can see 3 distinct populations in Greece, Mainland, Islanders and Cyprus.
My hypothesis is that Greek Islanders represent Greek populations before Slavic and others from North migrated to Greece Mainland. Before that Greece mainland was looking similar to today's Islanders. Cyprus might represent even more ancient Levant Neolithic Farmer population, mixed with BA from Anatolia.
More Caucasian and SW Asian, the more Near Eastern/Anatolian Influence. More NE Euro represents Steppe and Slavic invasions. More Med represents EEF influence. Baloch is from Iran/Armenia or Steppe.
[TABLE="width: 988"]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl295, width: 110"]Europeans[/TD]
[TD="class: xl296, width: 79"]# of samples[/TD]
[TD="class: xl190, width: 47"]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl190, width: 47"]Baloch[/TD]
[TD="class: xl190, width: 47"]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl190, width: 47"]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD="class: xl190, width: 47"]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl190, width: 47"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl190, width: 47"]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl190, width: 47"]Papuan[/TD]
[TD="class: xl190, width: 47"]American[/TD]
[TD="class: xl190, width: 47"]Beringian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl191, width: 47"]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD="class: xl190, width: 47"]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl190, width: 47"]San[/TD]
[TD="class: xl190, width: 47"]E-African[/TD]
[TD="class: xl190, width: 47"]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD="class: xl190, width: 47"]W-African[/TD]
[TD="class: xl186, width: 47"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl186"]Greek, mainland[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]3[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]6[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]32[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]25[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]0[/TD]
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[TD="class: xl192"]11[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl186, align: right"]100[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl186"]Greek, Islands, East[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]5[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]9[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]38[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]14[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]23[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]14[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl186, align: right"]100[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl186"]Cyprus[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]4[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]10[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]44[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]6[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]20[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]17[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl192"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl186, align: right"]100[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
LeBrok
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I have only 3 Greek Mainland samples. We need more, especially from Greek Makedonia and Peloponnese. If someone has ancestry from this area PM me your GedMatch kit number, please.
Pax Augusta
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I have only 3 Greek Mainland samples. We need more, especially from Greek Makedonia and Peloponnese. If someone has ancestry from this area PM me your GedMatch kit number, please.
An American-Greek guy, he is fully Greek, both his parents are from Corinthia, Peloponnese, Greece.
oreo_cookie
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I could see this being the case and the genetics certainly suggest it, but when would that migration have happened, exactly? Keep in mind also that the Aegean islands sample has Cypriot-levels of Caucasian but nowhere near their Near Eastern. As for what LeBrok said, I highly doubt mainland Greece was ever quite like that sample, and for this to be true, Greeks on the mainland would have to have a much larger Slavic component than what seems likely.
As for Crete, if you look at the individual admixture chart (rather than the averages) you see a few interesting things. Trapani is even more distinct from the rest of Sicily, than Crete is from the rest of Sicily, and the Cretans may be closer to the Sicilians/Calabrese than to the Aegean islanders in the other components even factoring in the Caucasus influence being slightly higher. But some of the Sicilians have almost none of the blue European component (see a few bars from Catania, Ragusa, and Palermo) which is also true of the Aegean islands sample but not the Cretan one.
Azzurro
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Eurogenes is filled with many crazies, I like to going on that site for the papers and get a good chuckle at the comments, Sardegna as you know as well is probably the best representation of Neolithic Europeans, crazy comments about Sardinia should just be ignored.
I listened to your suggestion and read the recent Razib Khan article, it was a very good read. He brought up many good points, and he is unbiased, which is a good thing. It still doesn't change my opinion that there was some gene flow (we cannot know forsure how much) during the Roman Period. When I talk about gene flow during this period it is not only restricted to Southern Italy, but the entire Peninsula and Sicily.
I think your statement about the charlatans, racist agendas and the rest of the sentence, is well said, I have noticed from the start that there is many people with obvious agendas, hai detto bene Angela.
In terms of your advice, I base most of my ideas off of what I noticed and my personal research, but my main interest is and always was Y dna, I am less knowledgeable in autosomal, in terms of the Caucasian autosomal I would think majority is due to Copper and Bronze Age Migrations, some is later. The one thing that so far no one has given in my opinion is the high East Mediterranean found in Southern Italians and Sicilians, the levels of which it is found suggest some post Bronze Age gene flow from the area. I am not going to base it off my results when I look at Eurogenes K36 spreadsheet for all populations I am 5-6% higher than the average Italian which makes me an outlier in this aspect, but the average Southern Italian and Sicilian are getting East Med% the same as Greek Islanders, Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews. You see what I am talking about there is something to it.
I would never believe a comment that suggests that the Lombards replaced the population of the Po Valley, U152 is clearly an Italic line.
The argument at least I make is that there was some gene flow from Roman slavery and it is not specific only to the East Mediterranean, though to answer your question or statement that you mentioned with West Asian and Levantine slaves were only specifically brought to Southern Italy as an argument by some on other forums, I don't think it was only restricted to this area, there is 2 reasons for me one is logical and the other is an example that it could have happened and why Southern Italy. At the time Southern Italy was still vastly Greek speaking, it would make sense for slave owners of the South to get Greek speaking slaves and the East Med, Anatolia, Egypt and Greece/Aegean were Greek speaking in the sense it was like a lingua franca. The second point which I even made on Anthrogenica is take the example of the first Serville War, the leader of the Slave revolt was Eunus a Syrian slave and his partner was Cleon a slave from Cilicia, so we know that Eastern Mediterranean slaves were present at least during this period, how much? We cannot know. Was it only restricted to Southern Italy, definitely not.
You forgot one and its the Castelluccio Culture. Yes getting various ancient samples from Italy from different cultures and civilizations will be the best way to fully know what actually happened.
In terms of when I said Iberian and French I also meant to say in terms of Y, I would think neolithic Italy would have been I2, G2a and T1a. It would be curious now to see how similar or how different was Copper Age Italy to Copper Age Balkans.
Azzurro
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First off I am Azzurro on Eupedia, on Anthrogenica I am Principe. Secondly that Sarno 2014 is not really a good one use or quote in this case, he uses str's to estimate entire haplogroups which is not going to be accurate, there is many subclades of E, J1 and J2, and Italy has almost all of them, varying from being either vary rare to somewhat popular, if you want an accurate Y age estimate I suggest looking at snp's to make a decent argument, and even at that only ngs testing will be the best method. All three haplogroups that you quoted are too diverse to even suggest a possible estimate, in fact impossible.
Azzurro
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This is not the place to discuss Etruscans origins as it is off topic to the subject, if you want to know my opinion go on Anthrogenica and go on the J2 in Southern Italy thread. My main arguments deal with religious customs and language.
APO276
Regular Member
No, I'm not interested. Unless you have data.
Let's see though what we know about the Germanic etc slaves, though.
See Historia Langobardorum, Book I, first paragraph:
Ab hac ergo populosa Germania saepe innumerabiles captivorum turmae abductae meridianis populis pretio distrahuntur.
Concerning Greece I have that, from Treatise about Two Sarmatias:
Tandem supervenerunt Gotthi, qui et Getae vocantur, quorum captivi a Graecis et comicis eorum Geta et a Dacia Dauus et Dacus, tanquam slavi et servi tenti et nuncupati fuerunt.
Azzurro
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Why do you ask if your not interested?
M
MarkoZ
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I wouldn't take this ADMIXTURE analysis too literally. At such low K, the major West Eurasian components are bound to overlap to a great extent. The 'Sardinian' probably absorbs large chunks of both the European and the Near Eastern components depending on the population tested. Similar problems exist with regard to the Caucasus component.
ADMIXTURE 'learns' these clusters because Sardinians are peripheral to the European genetic landscape. Mordvins - the most European group in this analysis - are at least equally peripheral.
Angela
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Azzurro:
I'm not trying to be condescending or unkind, but I would suggest you do some intensive reading on the history of Rome, particularly as it applies to the Italian peninsula, as you suggest things which don't make much sense given what we know.
Many of the slaves sent to southern Italy went to the vast agricultural latifundia or to the mines. The life span was extremely short: you didn't live long enough to get manumitted and pass on your genes. These enterprises were mostly owned by Roman senators, and the owners and factors would have spoken Latin, as would most of the population of Sicily and Southern Italy and even places like isolated Sardinia, no matter what language they spoke at home. Speaking Latin or even Greek would have been immaterial. They selected for brawn, not language. Slaves were present in infection rich urban centers as well, and their nutrition and living conditions would have been sub-par. There would have been some children born to the owners, but the mothers would have been of varied ethnicities as well as right from the Italian peninsula, as would all slaves: conquered Italics, my own Ligures, Greek speakers from the south, poor people selling themselves into slavery, abandoned infants, of which there were many. There are no accepted numbers for any of this.
To base a theory on the ethnicity of one slave leader or two is not very sensible, is it? Spartacus may have been been Illyrian; so what? This is starting to sound a lot like special pleading and the selective presentation of data. You're also doing a bit of that straw man thing again. I never said there was no gene flow from slaves. I asked whether it was sensible to believe, in the absence of ancient dna, that it significantly changed the autosomal dna, and why no one ever discusses all those German and Gallic and Italian peninsula etc. slaves. For the sake of your reputation I would advise you not to adopt these methods, whether or not they are used by your friends.
Razib Khan comes to some of these conclusions not only because he's a good geneticist, imo, but because he has an admirable grasp of the Roman Era and of European history for a non-historian.
I'm not trying to be condescending or unkind, but I would suggest you do some intensive reading on the history of Rome, particularly as it applies to the Italian peninsula, as you suggest things which don't make much sense given what we know.
Many of the slaves sent to southern Italy went to the vast agricultural latifundia or to the mines. The life span was extremely short: you didn't live long enough to get manumitted and pass on your genes. These enterprises were mostly owned by Roman senators, and the owners and factors would have spoken Latin, as would most of the population of Sicily and Southern Italy and even places like isolated Sardinia, no matter what language they spoke at home. Speaking Latin or even Greek would have been immaterial. They selected for brawn, not language. Slaves were present in infection rich urban centers as well, and their nutrition and living conditions would have been sub-par. There would have been some children born to the owners, but the mothers would have been of varied ethnicities as well as right from the Italian peninsula, as would all slaves: conquered Italics, my own Ligures, Greek speakers from the south, poor people selling themselves into slavery, abandoned infants, of which there were many. There are no accepted numbers for any of this.
To base a theory on the ethnicity of one slave leader or two is not very sensible, is it? Spartacus may have been been Illyrian; so what? This is starting to sound a lot like special pleading and the selective presentation of data. You're also doing a bit of that straw man thing again. I never said there was no gene flow from slaves. I asked whether it was sensible to believe, in the absence of ancient dna, that it significantly changed the autosomal dna, and why no one ever discusses all those German and Gallic and Italian peninsula etc. slaves. For the sake of your reputation I would advise you not to adopt these methods, whether or not they are used by your friends.
Razib Khan comes to some of these conclusions not only because he's a good geneticist, imo, but because he has an admirable grasp of the Roman Era and of European history for a non-historian.
APO276
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I didn't ask your opinion about Etruscans.