Azzurro
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Sure if they want to embrace the Mediterranean inside them, as they say una faccia una razza.
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Mediterranean migration layers in Sicily and southern Italy
- Thread starter Angela
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Sure if they want to embrace the Mediterranean inside them, as they say una faccia una razza.
Azzurro
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I would say not entirely.
True but majority of Italy is Mediterranean, so the area Alps is technically not.
Azzurro
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Very interesting, I did not know that's how Russians call Russia, thanks, you learn something new everyday.
Go tell Rémi Gaillard and Laurent Blanc, all they apparently need after all is a full beard and a monthly supply of shisha tobacco to fit in right away in Damietta right?
Ironically sunkissed Southern French are probably less of a Med face than us in Northern Italy, but whatever..
LeBrok
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All Slavs call other Slavs, Slavs - "Sloveni or Slovianie" or similar. The general meaning of "Slav" is a speaker of common language, people of "same words". Likewise with same loginc, slavic name for strangers, non Slavic, was Nemce/Niemcy. Meaning the "ones who don't speak". Used mostly for Germanic tribes, and still in use for Germans. All Slavs call Roman speaker "Vlahy, Wlochy", I'm not sure why though.
Apsurdistan
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All I know about Vlah is that's what Bosniaks the older generations or rural slang term is used to call Christians. We call Romanians Rumuni, Albanians Albanci or Šiptari, Greeks Grci, Italians Italiani.
And Slav doesn't mean anything other than westernized Sloven. But Slava means celebration or glory. Slavuj is some type of bird don't know which one exactly. Slavonija is eastern Croatia. Can't think of any other slav in our language... slab or slabo means weak. Lav means Lion.
This has all become completely off topic.
Angela
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I've lived among Italian-Americans for a couple of decades now, and I've been in this amateur community for ten years. In all that time I've only met three people of part Italian ancestry(never a full Italian) who subscribe to these kinds of views, views that you normally find on Skadi, forumbiodiversity, theapricity, etc., blogs that are home to self-described racists and nordicists of various stripes and sometimes unexpected countries; at least they were open about their beliefs until pretty recently. The fact that one of the founders of theapricity was sent to prison for militant "white" supremacy undoubtedly led to some discretion, as well as the fact that the FBI and various European organizations are constantly monitoring them. It's time that those of us who have been around for a while acknowledge the huge elephant in the room, if for no other reason than that newbies should know what sites they can trust.
As I said, in only three people who self-identify as part-Italian have I ever heard these views expressed: Oreo-Cookie/Sikeliot, who is the chief moderator at theapricity and very active at forum biodiversity as Tauromenion, and lately Azzurro/Principe and New Englander. The opinions expressed, and the specific proofs presented, sometimes even the expressions used, were so similar to those of Sikeliot that I thought the latter two were just his sock accounts. I can be excused for that, I think, as he has apparently acknowledged he has many sock accounts at theapricity. There are probably only four people posting there.
They assure me that isn't the case, so it may be that they have just been spending too much time on sites like that, or their perspective may be personal, or based on mixed ancestry, which those of us who have been around a long time and have had personal communications with him absolutely know is the case with Sikeliot. In his case any kind of “Med-centrism” is a cover and a smokescreen. I'll leave it at that. Nobody should have their personal laundry aired in public.
What I think newbies have to understand is that there are not altogether mentally stable people who sometimes use ideologies like this to work out their personal traumas in rather bizarre ways. How else to explain self-hating Jews who join Nazi organizations? Sometimes, it's a sense of national inferiority which they try to redress by obsessing on what some of their ancestors did 6,000 years ago. Sometimes they are young people with very little academic grounding in these disciplines who have been brainwashed by these sites.
Regardless, this kind of thinking is fringe at its best even when it’s honest, and undeserving of all this attention. Italians, including Italian-Americans, identify by region and as Italians, then as European. As I jestingly said above, how could we not: we helped create it. We also fought for it when the Ottomans and the Saracens raided and enslaved and invaded. I assure you that Andrea Doria felt no brotherly fellow feeling for the Ottoman Turk.
That doesn’t mean that, other than our own fringe racists, we don’t acknowledge the great debt that Europe owes the people of the east for many of the great advancements which have made civilization possible. Nor does this mean that, again, other than the minority among us who are racists, we have a problem with having less WHG/EHG than someone from Sweden or Ireland or Poland. Anyone in this day and age who thinks that “European-ness” depends on whether 50% of your ancestors were here 13,000 years ago versus 20%-30% has a screw loose or is too stupid for these kinds of discussions.
@Binx,
Don't judge all Americans by the nutjobs on these sites. Any American who would say the things said or implied on many of these sites about southern Europeans, Jews, and on and on would become a social pariah.
Now, we’ve been off topic long enough. Back to the paper.
As I said, in only three people who self-identify as part-Italian have I ever heard these views expressed: Oreo-Cookie/Sikeliot, who is the chief moderator at theapricity and very active at forum biodiversity as Tauromenion, and lately Azzurro/Principe and New Englander. The opinions expressed, and the specific proofs presented, sometimes even the expressions used, were so similar to those of Sikeliot that I thought the latter two were just his sock accounts. I can be excused for that, I think, as he has apparently acknowledged he has many sock accounts at theapricity. There are probably only four people posting there.
They assure me that isn't the case, so it may be that they have just been spending too much time on sites like that, or their perspective may be personal, or based on mixed ancestry, which those of us who have been around a long time and have had personal communications with him absolutely know is the case with Sikeliot. In his case any kind of “Med-centrism” is a cover and a smokescreen. I'll leave it at that. Nobody should have their personal laundry aired in public.
What I think newbies have to understand is that there are not altogether mentally stable people who sometimes use ideologies like this to work out their personal traumas in rather bizarre ways. How else to explain self-hating Jews who join Nazi organizations? Sometimes, it's a sense of national inferiority which they try to redress by obsessing on what some of their ancestors did 6,000 years ago. Sometimes they are young people with very little academic grounding in these disciplines who have been brainwashed by these sites.
Regardless, this kind of thinking is fringe at its best even when it’s honest, and undeserving of all this attention. Italians, including Italian-Americans, identify by region and as Italians, then as European. As I jestingly said above, how could we not: we helped create it. We also fought for it when the Ottomans and the Saracens raided and enslaved and invaded. I assure you that Andrea Doria felt no brotherly fellow feeling for the Ottoman Turk.
That doesn’t mean that, other than our own fringe racists, we don’t acknowledge the great debt that Europe owes the people of the east for many of the great advancements which have made civilization possible. Nor does this mean that, again, other than the minority among us who are racists, we have a problem with having less WHG/EHG than someone from Sweden or Ireland or Poland. Anyone in this day and age who thinks that “European-ness” depends on whether 50% of your ancestors were here 13,000 years ago versus 20%-30% has a screw loose or is too stupid for these kinds of discussions.
@Binx,
Don't judge all Americans by the nutjobs on these sites. Any American who would say the things said or implied on many of these sites about southern Europeans, Jews, and on and on would become a social pariah.
Now, we’ve been off topic long enough. Back to the paper.
New Englander
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Wasn't trying to be racist. I was just being lazy. Should have said Paleolithic, neolithic, Indo-European, ect. What I was saying is that Italy has experienced waves of immigration both from the rest of Europe and the Middle East over the past couple thousand years. This is true, even over the last few hundred years, but the amount of Indo-European mixture, and Northern/Central European influence might have outweighed the other influences over that time period. The exception may be isolated communities in the south. So say there was no movement from the rest of Europe or the Middle East over the last couple hounded years is mind boggling. Now how much was it? I guess we need ancient samples to see what the population was like. But again, those samples may be considered regional, and time period matters.
APO276
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When Konstantinos Oikonomos (1780-1857) wrote about Slavic he tried to connect the ethnonym with ancient greek 'kleos' = glory (so it would be from *slàva). And in Sanskrit śrávas = “fame, honor”
The reconstructed PIE root is *klew = hear supposedly but they say that *slysati, *slusati come from it too. I personally believe the name was connected with the meaning 'fame, glory, honor'. Either way the terms are thought to be related.
Apsurdistan
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I don't know what you mean with Klew but Kleveta = slander. Kletva = curse. Gatati = fortune telling.
Ralphie Boy
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It makes complete sense that continental Greeks are pulled closer to Albanians, because of the historical Albanian population movements into Greece. Maybe the connection goes both ways to some degree, as ancient Greek people had settlements in modern Albania.
I am very curious about how much male haplogroups E-V13 and J2b will be found in Classical era Greece and south Balkans.
I am very curious about how much male haplogroups E-V13 and J2b will be found in Classical era Greece and south Balkans.
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LABERIA
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The influence of ancient greeks in genetic terms was insignificant. The ancient greeks were a small, lucky and genius group of tribes.
They were small, compared with the other nations of antiquity like Celts, Thracians, Illyrians, etc.
They were lucky, because they settled in a specific place, the southern part of Greek Peninsula. And this helped them to be in contact with other ancient civilisations. For example they took from the Phoenicians the alphabet.
And they were genius, because as we know the civilisation of modern Europe is based in greek and of course roman civilisation.
Yetos
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@ Laberia
History teach us that Greek had their own Alphabetos before adopt Phoenician
they had Linear A and B
and Cymae Alphabet
the today known as Latin Alphabet is an invention of Greeks
it true name is Euboean Greek Alphabetos
the adoption of Phoenician is another story
Ralphie Boy
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By the time of the Classical Age, Greeks were a huge group of people, living in many places, like Anatolian coasts, Magna Grecia and around the Black Sea. They were not a small people, genetically.
As far as continental Greeks and this study, I agree that it's limited to a few locations and doesn't look at other continental spots like the Tsakonian region. In that respect, the study is missing important information. However, I believe on the whole that continental Greece is shifted more northward than Italy/Sicily, Crete and Aegean Islands like the Dodecanese. They probably took in influences from the southern Balkans and of course, medieval Slavs.
I don't believe that medieval invasions replaced everyone in continental Greece, or that Greeks were gone by the time the Slavs came. The country is too big for that, and it has too many regions. I believe that can easily be seen just by people's appearances.
Pax Augusta
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If you think that Gioiello is a racist, we do belong to a different ethnicity.
Azzurro
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I find him big time racist and insulting, he is absolutely the worst in my opinion. His refugia theory is not true, and he attacks everyone.
Pax Augusta
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Which is exactly what you're doing.