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The new Haak et al. 2015 paper confirmed that Yamna Proto-Indo-Europeans belonged to haplogroup R1b. Four out of six R1b samples from the Volga-Ural region belonged to the R1b-Z2103 subclade, a branch of what used to be called R1b-ht35, the eastern variant of R1b-M269. Obviously the samples tested were on the far north-eastern reaches of the Yamna horizon, and I expect that samples from more southern and western areas of Yamna would yield other R1b subclades, notably the L51 branch from which Western Europeans descend.

We can reasonably assume that all R1b-M269 samples that once fit into the ht35 or L23* category are Z2103, simply because there are only two known subclade under L23 : L51 (ht15) and Z2103 (ht35).

Haplogroup-R1b-Z2103.png


What is not clear from my European map above is that Z2103 has a very wide distribution covering also Central Asia, South Asia and West Asia.

Most of the R1b in Asia on the map below is either M73 or Z2103, although the latter is dominant everywhere.

Haplogroup_R1b_World.png


According to the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project, Z2103 has five main subclades.

- L584 (including L943) : found mostly in the South Caucasus, Turkey, Iraq and Iran, but also in Poland, Germany and Austria.

- L277.1 : found in Russia, Central Asia, Bulgaria, India and the Middle East (Iraq, Lebanon).

- CTS7822 (including CTS9219) : found in Russia (including Chuvashia), Ukraine, Poland, Hungary, the Balkans, Armenia, Italy, Spain, Britain and Ireland.

- CTS7763 : found in Turkey, Bulgaria and Italy.

- Z2109 : found in Germany and Scotland.


Overall the distribution of the bulk of Z2103 samples is reminiscent of that of R1a-Z93.

For example R1b-L277.1 seems to have expanded from Russia to Central Asia then to India and the Middle East, just like the R1a-L657 subclade of Z93.

R1b-L584 looks more Mitanni, Iranian, Scythian and maybe also Armenian. It's West Asian distribution matches that of the R1a-Z2124 subclade of Z93.

R1b-CTS7822 is mostly central and eastern European and correlates more with R1a-Z280.

R1b-CTS7763 appears to be confined to the greater ancient Greece (not data from Greece itself, but most of the Greek R1b-L23 could belong to this subclade considering its presence in South Italy and West Anatolia). It doesn't seem to correlate with any R1a subclade.


I wouldn't be surprised if the eastern Yamna Z2103 samples tested later formed the Poltavka culture, which eventually merged with the Abashevo culture to form the Sintashta culture (presumably the main source of Asian R1a-Z93). Through a founder effect or through political domination, R1a-Z93 lineages would have become far more numerous than R1b-Z2103 after the expansion to Central and South Asia.

What is certain is that one of the Z2103 samples came from the Orenburg oblast just south of the Urals, in what was soon to become the Poltavka culture. I already envisioned this scenario in my migrations maps 5 years ago, and the current data is in perfect agreement with it. Back then Z2103 had not yet been discovered, so I couldn't have made predictions about it. Even today data is very scarce about L23 subclades, especially among Volga-Ural ethnic groups, in Central Asia and in the Balkans.

early_middle_bronze_europe.png
 
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Why has no one mentioned Bashkirs? They're very high in RM269, and are probably Z2013. They also live in today's Samara.This shows that western Yamna would probably be similar to what Ukraine is like today.
 
R1b-Z2105 in Volga region (according to Trofimova 2015)
36.2% Burzyan Bashkirs
21.2% Udmurts
8.0% Komi
6.8% Erzya and Moksha
3.8% Besermyan
2.3% Chuvash
0% Mari
0% Kazan Tatars,
0% Bashkirian Tatars,
 
very interesting

it must have been a very mobile tribe

what about Armenians / Phrygians ?
on the move and entering history 1200 BC or a bit later
 
R1b-Z2105 in Volga region (according to Trofimova 2015)
36.2% Burzyan Bashkirs
21.2% Udmurts
8.0% Komi
6.8% Erzya and Moksha
3.8% Besermyan
2.3% Chuvash
0% Mari
0% Kazan Tatars,
0% Bashkirian Tatars,

Thanks for that info. So, it's as high in parts of Russia as in west Asia. Now the R1b-Z2103 in Samara Yamnas makes more sense.

As of far 3/3 Corded ware have R1a1-M417, 3/3 Bell beaker have R1b(One was tested for P312 and was positive), all but a few of the dozens of Y DNA samples from Bronze-Iron age IE north Asians have R1a, 2/2 Mesolithic Russians have R1b1* and R1a1*, and Upper Palaeolithic MA-1 has R*.

That's an incredible continuum and dominance of Y DNA R in pre-historic ANE-heavy pops of Europe and north Asia. None of the Yamna R1bs were related, all their paternal lineages were not connected recently. This wasn't the result of a recent founder effect, Yamna legitally had a very high amount of R1b.

Who's to say R1b-L11 in west Europe is not descended of the steppe? It's pretty obvious now that we know Yamna and modern eastern Russians have a high amount of L51's brother Z2013.
 
Let's say R1b-L23 originated and spread out of modern Russia.

It's debatable where R1b-M269 originated, but M269's brother M73 as far as know is centered in central and north Asia. This supports a north Eurasian origin of R1b-P297. Other R1b could have orignated somewhere else.

As of far we already have R1b1* from Mesolithic Samara and Neolithic Spain ancestral to P297. The R1b1* from Spain could be coming out of Russia or west Asia. But considering R1a1* has been found in Mesolithic Karelia, and most modern R1a is decended out of the same area most modern R1b is, I tend to think R1 in general might be from north Eurasia.
 
Why has no one mentioned Bashkirs? They're very high in RM269, and are probably Z2013. They also live in today's Samara.This shows that western Yamna would probably be similar to what Ukraine is like today.

Why do you say "no one" when I am the only person who had posted in this thread until then ?

As I said above there is very little data on L23 subclades from the Volga-Ural region at the moment. I checked all the FTDNA projects (Bashkir Suyun, Bashkorostan, Chuvash, Tatars, Mordovians) and only found deep L23 subclades tested for the Chuvash. As I explained, there is a good chance that most if not all L23 in the region is Z2103, as well as in Central and South Asia.
 
R1b-Z2105 in Volga region (according to Trofimova 2015)
36.2% Burzyan Bashkirs
21.2% Udmurts
8.0% Komi
6.8% Erzya and Moksha
3.8% Besermyan
2.3% Chuvash
0% Mari
0% Kazan Tatars,
0% Bashkirian Tatars,

Thanks, I hadn't seen this study published only a few weeks ago. Very timely.

However, after checking the original paper (I have access to the full paper) I do not see any mention of Z2105, Z2103 or even L23. The data you mentioned is just for R1b-M269. I know for a fact that the Bashkirs have a few percent's of Celtic R1b (U152, L2) and Central Asian R1b-M73. So it's not all Z2103.
 
Thanks, I hadn't seen this study published only a few weeks ago. Very timely.

However, after checking the original paper (I have access to the full paper) I do not see any mention of Z2105, Z2103 or even L23. The data you mentioned is just for R1b-M269. I know for a fact that the Bashkirs have a few percent's of Celtic R1b (U152, L2) and Central Asian R1b-M73. So it's not all Z2103.
From Trofimova work
http://s011.radikal.ru/i318/1502/37/e3e67e8052d7.jpg
e3e67e8052d7.jpg
 

Thanks again. This was not included in the paper in English. Some percentages don't match the paper in English. For example the Mari have 0% of R1b, but have apparently 2% on the graph. Do you have the link to the paper in Russian ?

Here is the translation for those who don't read Cyrillic.

- Bashkirs : 36.2% of Z2105, about 5.2% of M73 and 1.7% of L51/M412
- Chuvash : 2.3% of Z2105
- Komi : 8% of Z2105, 4% of L23* and 3% of L51
- Mari : 2% of L51
- Mordvinians : 7% of Z2103 and 3% of M405/U106/S21
- Kazan Tatars : 1.9% of M73
- Tuymazinsky Tatars : 15% of M405/U106/S21 and 2% of L51
- Udmurts : 21.2% of Z2105
- Besermyans : 3.8% of Z2105
 
The interesting thing is
E1b1b1 G2a J2a J2b in Uralic and Turkic populations of Volga region
 
Thanks for that info. So, it's as high in parts of Russia as in west Asia. Now the R1b-Z2103 in Samara Yamnas makes more sense.

As of far 3/3 Corded ware have R1a1-M417, 3/3 Bell beaker have R1b(One was tested for P312 and was positive), all but a few of the dozens of Y DNA samples from Bronze-Iron age IE north Asians have R1a, 2/2 Mesolithic Russians have R1b1* and R1a1*, and Upper Palaeolithic MA-1 has R*.

That's an incredible continuum and dominance of Y DNA R in pre-historic ANE-heavy pops of Europe and north Asia. None of the Yamna R1bs were related, all their paternal lineages were not connected recently. This wasn't the result of a recent founder effect, Yamna legitally had a very high amount of R1b.

Who's to say R1b-L11 in west Europe is not descended of the steppe? It's pretty obvious now that we know Yamna and modern eastern Russians have a high amount of L51's brother Z2013.

Actually, there are four Corded Ware samples so far. And while the two German samples from 2600 BC are R1a1, the two Polish samples from 2800 BC are G? and J or I?, which requires some explaining if Corded Ware was a totaling intrusive and possibly complete replacement population as suggested in this new paper.

It is interesting that the most recently discovered German Bell Beaker R1b from 2299-2206 BC is P312S/S116.
 

Thanks again.

It's very interesting to compare the R1a and R1b subclades found among Volga-Uralic peoples.

The Bashkirs are the only ethnic group that lacks western R1a subclades (M458, CTS1211) apart from 1.7% of Z282*. Their dominant R lineages are R1a-Z2125 (31%), R1b-Z2103 (36.2%) and R1b-M73 (5.2%). This is extremely interesting because the Bashkirs occupy the land of the easternmost reaches of the Yamna culture, next to Samara and Orenburg where the Z2103 samples were tested by Haak et al. This would appear to confirm my suspicion that these three haplogroups converged in the Poltavka and/or Sintashta culture before expanding to Central Asia.

Apart from 34.4% of R1a and 43.1% of R1b, the Bashkirs only have N1c (19%) and a little bit of J2a (3.4%).

It's odd that the Balto-Slavic R1a-CTS1211 is found in all ethnic groups in the region except the Bashkirs, as if they had been immune to intermingling with the Slavs (Russians).

The Central European R1a-M458, probably linked to the Corded Ware expansion, is found at low frequencies (1.7 to 7.7%) in all Volga-Ural ethnicities except the Bashkirs, Mari and Tuymazinsky Tatars. This is also reflected in the absence of I1 or I2 among the Bashkirs. Only the Mari and the Udmurts also lack I1 or I2.

The Komi, the Udmurts and the Besermyans, all Uralic people with over 50% of haplogroup N1c, stand out by their complete absence of R1a-Z93, R1a-Z95 or R1a-Z2125. These three ethnic groups and the Mari, another Uralic people, all lack Near Eastern haplogroups G2a, J2a and J2b. The Komi and the Besermyans do have some E1b1b though.

The only Uralic population in the region that differs from all the others are the Mordovians, who display both Germanic (I1, I2a2a), Slavic (32% of R1a-CTS1211, 1.7% of R1a-Z282 and 1.7% of R1a-M458) and apparently Balkanic (E-M78, G2a3b1, J2a, J2b) ancestry. They only have 10% of N1c, not just less than other Uralic speakers, but even less than Turkic speaking ethnic groups (Bashkirs, Chuvash, Tatars). The combination of Germanic, Slavic and Balkanic lineages suggests that the Mordovians could be descended from a branch of the 4th-century Goths from the Chernyakhov culture in Romania, Moldova and western Ukraine. This is further corroborated by the very strong similarity in names between Moldova and Mordova. Mordovians could therefore be Uralicized Moldovans.

Interestingly, the Chuvash and Tatars carry almost exactly same Germanic (7 to 11% of I1 + some I2-M223), Slavic (mostly R1a-CTS1211, with some R1a-Z282 and R1a-M458) and Balkanic (E-M78, G2a3, I2a1b, J1, J2a, J2b) package as their Mordovian neighbours. That would signify that they also descend from Carpathian Goths. The main difference is that the Chuvash and Tatars have both Uralic N1c1 and also about 10% of Turkic N1c2 (as opposed to the purely Uralic N1c1 of the Mordovians), which explains why they are Turkic speakers today.

My hypothesis is that one group of Carpathian Goths migrated east across Ukraine and settled west of the Volga, where they mixed with the local Uralic (N1c1 + R1a-Z93) speakers, whose language they adopted. In the 7th century, the Bulgars, Turkic speakers from Central Asia, invaded the Volga region and created the Kingdom of Volga Bulgaria in what is now Chuvashia and Tatarstan. This explains why only the Chuvash and Tatars mixed with them and became Turkic speakers. The Mordovians, who lived further west, with no connection to the Volga, remained Uralic speakers.
 
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excuse me for my ignorance,
but aren't Bashkirs speaking a Turkic language?
is this not an area that has been 'visited' many times by different nomadic horseriding tribes?
on the other hand the area is rich in copper ores, so I suppose even if another tribe came to 'visit', the local smiths stayed in the area
I mean, I would expect the Bashkirs to be a mixture of many different ethnicities
 
excuse me for my ignorance,
but aren't Bashkirs speaking a Turkic language?
is this not an area that has been 'visited' many times by different nomadic horseriding tribes?
on the other hand the area is rich in copper ores, so I suppose even if another tribe came to 'visit', the local smiths stayed in the area
I mean, I would expect the Bashkirs to be a mixture of many different ethnicities

Like most Turkic populations in Central Asia today, the Bashkirs were originally an Iranian people who became Turkicized between the 6th and the 11th century. If you look at pictures of Bashkir people, some look very European, while others look very Mongoloid. I suppose that the 58 samples in this study aren't very representative. Lobov et al. 2009 tested 471 Bashkirs separated in eight districts, and there were very big differences in haplogroup composition. For example the Baymaksky and Perm districts had 81% and 84% of R1b-M269, the Abzielilowsky district had 55% of R1b-M73 and 7% of R1b-M269, while the Steribashevky district had no R1b at all ! Western Orenburg had 17% of Mongolian haplogroup C, while eastern Orenburg had 65% of Uralic N1c1. Huge regional variations. What matters here is that I could find a link between R1a-Z2125 and R1b-Z2103, confirming that both are found in the region of origin of the Indo-Aryans and that they therefore could have spread together during the Bronze Age.
 
and the Mordovians, another Uralic people, all lack Near Eastern haplogroups G2a, J2a and J2b.
Wait!
The Erzya+Moksha (Mordva) have
1.7% J-12f2
5.1% J2a
10.2% J2b
3.4% G2a
10.2% E1b1b1a
 
I think we cannot rely entirely upon modern populations to track the past, when speaking of relatively low %s - as said, some populations changed language during History but also some mixings occurred at modern times, the Russians being the pole of "redistribution" I think -
Y-E1b is the most surprising, if not from modern Russian (but...) the other "southern" Y-HGroups could go back to the BMAC-Steppics contact (and even osmosis) of Neolithic or Metal Ages (G2a unsure too? we would wait rather G2b? but steppics had conatcs with Tripolje too, so)
 
Like most Turkic populations in Central Asia today, the Bashkirs were originally an Iranian people who became Turkicized between the 6th and the 11th century. If you look at pictures of Bashkir people, some look very European, while others look very Mongoloid. I suppose that the 58 samples in this study aren't very representative. Lobov et al. 2009 tested 471 Bashkirs separated in eight districts, and there were very big differences in haplogroup composition. For example the Baymaksky and Perm districts had 81% and 84% of R1b-M269, the Abzielilowsky district had 55% of R1b-M73 and 7% of R1b-M269, while the Steribashevky district had no R1b at all ! Western Orenburg had 17% of Mongolian haplogroup C, while eastern Orenburg had 65% of Uralic N1c1. Huge regional variations. What matters here is that I could find a link between R1a-Z2125 and R1b-Z2103, confirming that both are found in the region of origin of the Indo-Aryans and that they therefore could have spread together during the Bronze Age.

I guess it will be hard to find out which clades were in the area 4000 years ago, and which clades arrived later
I remembered they spoke Turkic, but with that much R1a / R1b I'm not surprised they look Indo-European
and even the 19 % N1c, seems to be Uralic N1c1a, not Turkic N1c2
the 81 or 84 % R1b-M269 is that M269* or is it just not checked for subclades ?
if it is M269*, they are a special group , this couldn't be coincidence
and with this part of M73 included maybe they were another early split like Anatolian and Tocharian, with some IE language now extinct

If I recall well from reading David Anthony the Indo-Iranians started to spread from east of the southern Urals (with arsenic copper ores) , and not west (with pure copper ores)
But maybe David Anthony also told where they were prior to that

I must say, I tought myself too that R1b-Z2103 was in the vicinity of some R1a-Z93 tribe when the Indo-Iranic expansion started, but as most Indo-Iranian went east and southeast, most R1b-Z2103 went west, they would be Srubnaya
When I think of it : the Z2103 Yamnaya samples found in Samara were 3300-2700 BC, by then Corded Ware got started , so Z2103 must then allready have been situated between R1a-Z283 ot the west and R1a-Z93 to the east

R1a-Z2125 was Andronovo?
 
Wait!
The Erzya+Moksha (Mordva) have
1.7% J-12f2
5.1% J2a
10.2% J2b
3.4% G2a
10.2% E1b1b1a

Sorry I meant the Mari ! I have just added a paragraph on the origins of the Mordovians (who are probably descended from the Goths from Moldova).
 

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