modern gaelic(s) and possible cognates or loanwords (play)

[FrankN]

[TABLE="width: 800"]
[TR]
[TD]Gaelic (Eng. translation)
[/TD]
[TD]German (optional: Eng. translation)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]maor (steward)
[/TD]
[TD]Meier (from Latin major domus)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]marc (horse)
[/TD]
[TD]Mähre ->Meer-rettich (horse-radish)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]math (good)
[/TD]
[TD]massiv (massive) ? possibly loaned from French
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]meala (honey)
meadhrán (vertigo)
[/TD]
[TD]Met (honey wine),
which, if over consumed, might lead to... ??
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]meadhan (middle)
[/TD]
[TD]Mitte
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]melim (to grind)
[/TD]
[TD]mahlen
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]minin (to explain)
[/TD]
[TD]meinen (to remark, to voice an opinion)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]mochta (mighty)
[/TD]
[TD]mächtig
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]nathrair (snake)
[/TD]
[TD]Natter
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]neulach (cloud)
[/TD]
[TD]Nebel (fog, Lat, nebula)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]nocht (naked)
[/TD]
[TD]nackt [no Latin parallel!]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]obair (action)
[/TD]
[TD]Arbeit (work, Lat. labor, Pol rabota)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]olai (wave)
olain, folain (wool)

[/TD]
[TD]Welle
Wolle, Leinen (linen) ?
Weaving in waves, using a "Schiffchen" (weaver's shuttle, lit. "small ship")
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]ôr (gold)[/TD]
[TD]Erz (ore)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]oraid (speech)
[/TD]
[TD]Sprache
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]ordog (thumb)
[/TD]
[TD]Daumen ? Zehe (toe, Lat. dgitus) ?
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]pian (pain)
[/TD]
[TD]Pein
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]plamas (to wheedle)
[/TD]
[TD]be-labern col. (to wheedle, to palaver)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]poit (pot)
[/TD]
[TD]Pott low German
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]posaim (to wed)
[/TD]
[TD]Busserl (kiss) South German dialects
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]reacht (statute)
[/TD]
[TD]Recht (right, law)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]rith (to run)
[/TD]
[TD]reiten (to ride an animal)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]roinn (to parcel)
[/TD]
[TD]roden (to spade, to clear land)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]ron (seal)
[/TD]
[TD]Rune
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]roth (wheel)
[/TD]
[TD]Rad
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[MOESAN]

FrankN
thanks for your comparisons -
IIn the lists you propose I saw (I looked at them very quickly) some words (celtic vs germanic) which seemed me without link - but as a whole your "work" is interesting:i 'll need some time to analyse it and give a personal point of view - I saw a lot of I-E cognates too, more than specific celtic-germanic connected words - but surely there are some specific links for some words which could signify some ancient connexions after the P-I-E breaking, excluding other families of I-Ean -
I'm an amateur and I began this thread just for the fun, putting gaelic words according to phonetic looks, without etymology knowledge (by example, I 've not old gaelic work by the hand at home only some ancient texts of between periods, not the first writings in gaelic - my first aim was to show the phonetic differencies and the "keys" between gaelic and brittonic celtic, nothing else -
&: based on a few words, I believe I remarked scottish gaelic could have some germanic links more than irish gaelic has...?
Read you again (but I have not too much time this month to answer immediately)

 

[mihaitzateo]

I 'm afraid you think that every kind of evolution can occurs in every language at every stage of evolution, Mihaitzateo:
could you prove us that f- and v- are interchangeable in romanian? I think gaelic initial F- is rarely in link with romanian F- / by the way, bran is bran in gaelic, not °°fran- and when it mutes it becomes Bhran with/v/ not /f/...
I think, without offense you, that you as some others believe that historic phonetic is a cubes game -

I am afraid you are not allowed to attack me,under the forum rules,but you can dis-agree with what I am saying.
Now to go back on topic,is well known fact that in Romania and in the land of today South Slavic speaking people from South Danube are plenty of Celtic archeological discoveries.
So is quite impossible to not have loan words in South Slavic and Romanian from Celtic languages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts_in_Transylvania
https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/tag/celtic-settlements-romania/
(enjoy the pictures ot Celtic archeological discoveries from these 2 links,try to contradict these with hard evidence not "is not like that because I said so is not like that!"-this argument have 0 as value.)
Is also well known and accepted by scientists in Romania that are Celtic words in Romanian language,inherited from the time of Dacians.
Celtic people went as far as Turkey,where Galata is very likely to have the name taken from how the Gauls were called in Latin.
Guess what,we have a town named Galati,in Romanian and some are saying that the name is coming from Galat,which comes from Cuman/turkic language.
However,there is no genetic trace of Turkic DNA in the people from Galati,so I think it rather come from some Celtic(Gauls included in Celtic) people that settled there.
I do not need your opinions as "authority" in interpreting which words are inherited in Romanian and South Slavic from Celtic or not,in fact,I do not value your opinions on this matter too much.
EDIT:One more thing,the evolution of languages is much more to complex to be explained with simple rules like "this sound went to that sound". In Romania,but not only in Romania,take Sweden,same language have various forms as you travel from a region,to another region (call them dialects). I think is same in most European countries and these dialects have the pronunciation of same word a little different,in same language. The comparisons here are made based on a single dialect of Celtic language,against another dialect of today language.

 

[mihaitzateo]

Just reminded another stunning coincidence,not so far ago (years) was an exposition in Bucharest,made with the support of the people from Olten town in Switzerland.
The idea started from a stunning coincidence of Celtic words from Switzerland,Olten is a town located on a river in Switzerland ; that river was called before Olt and has the name said to be taken from Celtic.
In Romania there is also Olt river and a region called Oltenia.
These names Olt-Olten-Oltenia can also be attributed to Celtic languages (I suppose some Gaulic language/s).
As an additional argument,in Oltenia were also found Celtic-linked archeological discoveries.

 

[FrankN]

FrankN
thanks for your comparisons -
IIn the lists you propose I saw (I looked at them very quickly) some words (celtic vs germanic) which seemed me without link - but as a whole your "work" is interesting:i 'll need some time to analyse it and give a personal point of view - I saw a lot of I-E cognates too, more than specific celtic-germanic connected words - but surely there are some specific links for some words which could signify some ancient connexions after the P-I-E breaking, excluding other families of I-Ean -
I'm an amateur and I began this thread just for the fun, putting gaelic words according to phonetic looks, without etymology knowledge (by example, I 've not old gaelic work by the hand at home only some ancient texts of between periods, not the first writings in gaelic - my first aim was to show the phonetic differencies and the "keys" between gaelic and brittonic celtic, nothing else -
&: based on a few words, I believe I remarked scottish gaelic could have some germanic links more than irish gaelic has...?
Read you again (but I have not too much time this month to answer immediately)

Thanks for your reply, Moesan! I am an amateur as well, and started my lists as I was intrigued by the many unexpected Gaelic-German parallels. My initial assumption was iron age German-Celtic contact in central Europe (Bohemia, South Germany, Austria, Belgium, Alsace, Switzerland). But then, it occurred to me that Irish monks have been heavily involved in Christianising Germany. Many didn't return (missionizing the Germans could be a quite dangerous job those days), but some of course did and will most probably have established links between their home monastery and newly founded German ones. Early monasteries were not only centres of literacy and language development/ maintenance, but also for technology development and dissemination. This could explain multiple parallels in textile, leather, food processing and construction terminology.
Point in case is German Schall (sound), Hall (reverb), and Halle (hall->the reverberating room), which all stem from a common root. Gaelic galan and hala (hall) reflects this, but in a less systematic way, which points at a Germanic origin. However, hall-like structures aren't known from bronze-age Germans. But we have the Latin aula, which served to denote the public part of early churches. This would indicate an early medieval rather than an iron age word transfer.
Another example is Klang (clang, sound) and Klinge (sword, blade), with the latter German term derived from the sound a well-crafted sword makes. Lann (Klinge = sword, blade) found its way into Gaelic, but the root Klang (clang) didn't. Since there is little doubt that German borrowed most metallurgical terms (iron, lead etc.) from Celtic, Gaelic using a Germanic word for blade seems strange. English doesn't offer a linguistic bridge, so the most likely explanation would be an early medieval transfer, possibly via translation of Germanic texts (Song of the Nibelungs?) into Gaelic / Latin.

If the "Irish monks" hypothesis is right, similarities between German and Gaelic should be more pronounced than those with other existing Celtic languages - your comments here would be appreciated.
This leads me to another "mystery" - the second (High German) consonant shift, which started in the early middle ages in South-East Germany and separates modern German from all other Germanic languages ("Three apes eat pancake" - "Drei Affen essen Pfannkuchen". The most plausible explanation for this systematic, regionalised shift is contact with another language. Could it have been Gaelic (via Irish monks)? Especially the "k/c"->"ch" shift appears to have taken place in Gaelic as well (Lat. octo -> Gael. ochto - Eng. eight). I also note Lat. thesis -> Gael téis, and Lat. apertus -> Gael. oscail (Eng. open, Germ. offen). Other candidate languages include Hunnic, Illyrian, and Rhaetic, but I don't have any idea about those languages' pronunciation (apparently, few people have such an idea).

 

[FrankN]

I need one more post to be able to post links ...

 

[FrankN]

.. and here comes the Wikipedia link to Irish-Scottish missionaries in Continental Europe:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiberno-Scottish_mission.
Since Scottish missionaries were involved as well, Scottish Gaelic should also have more similarities to German than, e.g., Breton

Pioneer Columbanus (+615) founded several monasteries in the now German-speaking area, including highly influential St. Gall. The St. Gall library hosts key Old High German documents, including the Abrogans (first book in German), the Althochdeutscher Tatian, and the works of Notker (+ 1022), a head of the St. Gall monastery school.

Note that the northernmost monasteries established by Scotch-Irish monks appear to be in Cologne and Erfurt. Further north, Anglo-Saxon missionaries, especially Bonifatius (+754/755) were active. It is probably more than a mere coincidence that the spheres of Scotch-Irish and Anglo-Saxon missionizing overlap with the High German - Low German border.

Towards the end of the 11th and in the 12th century, a number of Schottenklöster, intended for Scottish and Irish monks exclusively, sprang up in Germany. About 1072, three Scottish monks, Marianus, Iohannus, and Candidus, took up their abode at the little Church of Weih-St-Peter at Ratisbon. Their number soon increased and a larger monastery was built for them (about 1090) by Burgrave Otto of Ratisbon and his brother Henry. This became the famous Scottish Monastery of St. Jacob at Ratisbon, the mother-house of a series of other Schottenklöster. It founded the Abbeys of St. Jacob at Würzburg (about 1134), St. Aegidius at Nuremberg (1140), St. Jacob at Constance (1142), Our Blessed Lady at Vienna (1158), St. Nicolas at Memmingen (1168), Holy Cross at Eichstätt (1194), and the Priory of Kelheim (1231).

Note that the Schottenklöster concentrated in Franconia and the Oberpfalz (Ratisbon is today's Regensburg), and as such may have contributed further to the consonant shift's propagation from the south-east into north-westerly direction. This directed expansion is best visible in the Rhineland, where local dialects have only captured parts of the High German consonant shift - the further north-west, the least.

 

[epoch]

Why would Brennus, a common gallic surname be related to India's Brahmin caste?

I am not sure but at this distance between cousins the first "b" in gaelic or gallic would hardly be the same letter in Hindi or Sanskrit. For instance, the first letter "c" in the Latin word for 100, "centum" is the "h" in Germanic "hundred". That is actually "hund" (the same root as in centum) and "red", as in "read".

 

[FrankN]

I am not sure but at this distance between cousins the first "b" in gaelic or gallic would hardly be the same letter in Hindi or Sanskrit. For instance, the first letter "c" in the Latin word for 100, "centum" is the "h" in Germanic "hundred". That is actually "hund" (the same root as in centum) and "red", as in "read".

The changes are actually quite predictable. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimm's_law:

The Germanic "sound laws", combined with regular changes reconstructed for other Indo-European languages, allow one to define the expected sound correspondences between different branches of the family. For example, Germanic (word-initial) *b- corresponds regularly to Latin *f-, Greek pʰ-, Sanskrit bʰ-, Slavic, Baltic or Celtic b-, etc., while Germanic *f- corresponds to Latin, Greek, Sanskrit, Slavic and Baltic p- and to zero (no initial consonant) in Celtic. The former set goes back to PIE *bʰ- (faithfully reflected in Sanskrit and modified in various ways elsewhere), and the latter set to PIE *p- (shifted in Germanic, lost in Celtic, but preserved in the other groups mentioned here).

Thus, an Indian Bhraman would have become a Celtic "Braman", "Bremus" or similar. The problem with the "Brennus"-"Brahman" analogy is not the initial "Bh", the problem is the "m" in the middle!

"Brenn-" is typically related to amber, the "burnable stone" ("Bernstein" in German). The Wikipedia map below gives an idea of the various German places linked to prehistoric amber trade that include "Brenn" or "Bern" in their name. I myself am sceptical about Hamburg, Berlin and Antwerp as "amber names", and would instead add Bernburg / Saale and Bernstorf (20 km N of Munich, largest known bronze age fortification north of the Alps). Outside Germany, Bratislava, Brno, possibly also Praha and Wroclaw deserve to be mentionned as major centres of prehistoric amber trade that carry "Brn" in their names.

So "Brennus" means most likely "the one who controls the amber (trade)".

 

[MOESAN]

some points - good evening

1. I have noted several types of relations. First, there are the obvious Latin roots, especially for words related to Christianity (angel, chapter etc.). Of course, many similarities also go back to generic IE vocabulary. Secondly, a number of similarities exist for English, but not for German. This indicates either English directly borrowing from Celtic, e.g. baby, care, doll (from lat. idol?), or via French (Normans). What I find furthermore interesting is that a number of Celtic words appear to be closer to German than to English, which would attest the close prehistoric relation of both groups in Central Europe. I will come up with list of these parallels in a separate post.​
2. Concerning germanic words absent in english: it would be inetresting to have some dialect dictionaries because in rural english(s) surely more germanic (continental and scandinavian) roots were conserved: look at scot 'bairn' forn «child» - same in french were old romance words and forms are found in dialects when standard french has frankic words ('nore' for 'bru' = «daughter-in-law» or «la tête me doule» = «j'ai mal à la tête» = «I have head-pain», spanish «me duela la cabeza»)- I' ll look to scottish gaelic...
   
   First two general observations:
   1. The cluster beoir (beer), beol (lip), bracht (sap, brew?), braich (malt) suggests that beer-brewing was rather a Celtic than a Germanic invention. Though I guess it was probably already done in pre-Celtic times (LBK) - applying the concept of "genetic diversity" would point to Bohemia, Bavaria and upper Franconia as the region where Central European beer brewing originated. Interestingly, the distillate is known as whiskey (water) by Celts, vodka by Slavonics, but Korn by Germans, so distilling appears to be a younger (post bronze age) technology.​
3. 'beer', 'bier', 'bière', 'birra', beoir' etc... come surely from a common word, maybe celtic, maybe germanic, and loaned by latin speakers – Slavics have other word ('pivo' by inst.) – 'bracht'/'braich' seems more surely related to an I-Ean root in *bh-e-r- : meaning of «agitation», «bubbling», «foaming» >> Sanskr- 'bhuràti' : «agitated water» - Greek 'phurô': «to mix fermenting things»- Lat- 'fervere', 'fervor' : «to boil» + «to bubble» see 'broth','brew(er)', 'barm', 'bread' : 'broden', 'brauen', 'brouwen', 'brygga(re)', 'barm', 'brot', 'brood', 'brod' (Britt- 'bara' = «bread» and 'berwi'/'berwañ' = «to boil» ???) -- concerning german 'Korn' i'm not sure I've well understood the reasoning: to me 'korn'/'koren'/'corn' = «grain»
   
   2. Lighting large fires (braight) on a mountain top (braigh), e.g. the Brocken (Harz), is still a common habit for Walpurgis night (coinciding with Beltane) in Germany. This year, I spent the evening on the Walberla in Upper Franconia - site of a Neolithic hill settlement, and the region's political centre during the Hallstatt period, where Walpurgis night festivities are recorded from the 9th century AD, but probably date back much longer.
   /en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walpurgis_Night
   /en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehrenb%C3%BCrg​
   interesting concerning the traditional celebration – but «mountain top» is linked to Britt- 'bre', 'bri' («high», «honored»)<< I-Ean *bh-e-r-e-gh- «height» +... Gaul- 'briga' – Germ- berg – Slav- brjeg : «river bank» ...
   
   In any case, Celtic hilltop towns (oppida) live forth in German Berg (mountain)/Burg (castle/city) /Bürger (citizen) and similar Slavonic constructions around Hrad/ Grad/ Gora, with apparent etymological parallels to Celtic braigh . Indian pura suggests an IE root. Interestingly, the concept seems to partly have got lost in Latin/Romanic languages, except for mons /municipium. If ever existing in English, it didn't survive the Norman invasion.​

Slav- 'grad'/'gorod'/'hrad'and Germ-'garden'/'garten'/gaarden'/'gaard' aremore linked to a previous meaning of «enclosed»: Britt- 'garth',lat- 'hortus' >> 'orto', 'huerta'...aswere too Germ- 'tûn'/'town'/'zaun'/'tuin' thanto the concept of a high placed settlement, I think -​

[TD="width: 213"] Here the announce goidelic words with strong parallels to German.
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"][/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] Gaelic (Eng. translation)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] German (optional Eng. translation)
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] abhain (river)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] Ache, Au (creek, small river)
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] ascaill (armpit)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] Achsel
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] beàs (custom)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] Weise (way of doing sth.)
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] bith (being)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] Wesen
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] blath (flower)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] Blüte (blossom)
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] blonag (fat n.)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] Flomen (pork belly fat)
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] bolg (stomach)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] Balg (cleaned animal skin to be used as container, originally in the sense of "bag" or "balloon"); Blase-balg (Eng. bellows)
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] bonn (base, bottom)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] Boden
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] bothàn (cabin)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] Bude
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] breac (speckled)
brocach (dirty)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] Fleck (spot), fleckig (spotted, dirty)
[Sommer-]Sprosse (freckle) - two independent German loans?
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] breitheamh (judge)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] Richter
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] briosc (fragile)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] brüchig, zer-brech-lich
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] broid (to goad)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] reizen
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] bruchtaim (to erupt, to vomit)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] aus-brechen (to erupt), er-brechen (to vomit)
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] bruich (to boil)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] brühen
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] bruid (brute)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] Riese (giant) ?
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] cabhan (hollow, cavity)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] Hafen (port, originally also pot, kettle) ?
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] cac (sh*t)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] Kacke
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] cacht (confinement, bondage)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] Haft (imprisonment) loaned before 1st Germanic consonant shift ?
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] cagainn (to chew)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] kauen ?
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] cainc (projection, pominent nose)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] Zinke (projection), Zinken (prominent nose, colloq.)
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] càl (cabbage)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] Kohl
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] caorthann (rowan tree)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] Material for a separate thread! den*/tin*/tan* appears to mean various kinds of trees in various languages: Needle tree in German, oak in Slavonic, fig tree in semitic languages, date palm with the Berbers, mahogany in Tchad
w_ww.heinrich-tischner.de/22-sp/2wo/wort/idg/deutsch/t/tanne.htm
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] carraigh (rock)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] Harz mountains in Germany?
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] coil (wood)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] Holz
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] corc (oats)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] Hafer?
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] croch (hook?)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] Krug (pitcher) [ discussed in Grimm's dictionary ]
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] crom (bent)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] krumm
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] cruadh (austere)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] krüde (crude) ?
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] culaith (clothes, suit)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] Kleid (dress)
[/TD]

[TD="width: 213"] ciall (good sense, prudence)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 579"] schlau adj. (clever) - Schlaufe (looped thread, e.g. in knitting)
[/TD]

1. 'abhainn' root: I-E *ab- (Gaul- 'abona', Britt 'afon'/'aven'): ? Link with Latin 'aqua'???
   'ascail' : Britt- casel/kasel (metathesis? << aksel Lat- 'axila' >> French 'aisselle', 'aile'
   'blath' : Britt- 'blodeu(yn)'/'bleu'/'bleuñvenn' + Germ- 'bloom'/'blossom'/'blume'/
   bloem'/'blom' << I-E * 'bhel- with very large field of meanings linking the «flower», «leaf» concept to a possible but not proved «bright white» concept (see 'blad'/'blat'/'blad' + 'blood'/'blut'/'bloed'... + 'blank'/bleach'/'bleek', Slav- 'belo'/'bjelo'/'beo' – all the way, slavic cognates + 'Fl-' derived words in Latin ('flora'/'fleur', 'folia'/'feuille', 'flavius' : «blond») + in 'Ph-' in greek seem breaking the celtic-germanic private link -perhaps the -t-/-d- (suffix) could show a tighter link between both???
   'bolg' other I-Ean root in *bhel- : «to blow», «to bloat» >> 'bleb', 'blob', 'bladder', 'belly', 'bellows', bold'<> 'blasen', 'blähen', 'blatter', 'bald' – the are romance words we have with derived meanings are in 'Bl-' and seem Celtic loans in latin – I think I made a short overview of these roots somewhere...
   'blonag'><'Flomen' : sorry here I see NO direct link...
   'bothàn': maybe a recent enough loan to english «booth»
   'breac' >< 'flocken'/'freckles' : the germanic words are supposed come from a °°Pr-k so I see no direct link-
   'breitheamh' >< 'richter' : where is the link?

 

[MOESAN]

Answer to FrankN (second!)


I 'll continue about gaelic and celticlinks to germanic -


concerning the second mutation inhight-german, which I suppose could be linked to Rhaeticpeople and by the way to Etruscan (as a bet), I'm pretty sure it hasnothing to do with Irish monks and their gaelic language – thegaelic phonetic tendancy is at the opposed side! Despite yourinteresting resuming of their role in southern Germanic lands andbeside the purely phonetic question remains the question of theweight such a community of monks could have upon the language of afar more numerous population speaking their own «native» language -
I 'll come back on this question when Ican


nos vad deoc'h – oidhche mhath ~:[euiche va] (proxi for scottish gaelic!)-

 

[FrankN]

Answer to FrankN (second!)
concerning the second mutation inhight-german, which I suppose could be linked to Rhaeticpeople and by the way to Etruscan (as a bet), I'm pretty sure it hasnothing to do with Irish monks and their gaelic language – thegaelic phonetic tendancy is at the opposed side! Despite yourinteresting resuming of their role in southern Germanic lands andbeside the purely phonetic question remains the question of theweight such a community of monks could have upon the language of afar more numerous population speaking their own «native» language -
I 'll come back on this question when Ican


nos vad deoc'h – oidhche mhath ~:[euiche va] (proxi for scottish gaelic!)-

Thanks for the reply, MOESAN!

I am looking forward to further comments on why the Gaelic phonetic tendency is opposed to the High German sound shift. Rhaetic, however, is also problematic in this respect. If it caused the High German sound shift, its vulgar Latin variants, i.e. Romansh and Ladin, should display similar shifts. So I checked some words on a German-Romansh Internet dictionary http://www.pledarigrond.ch/?pl=de#:

Eng. plant Germ. Pflanze Romansh planta Lat. planta
Eng. plum Germ. Pflaume Romansh paloga Lat. prunus
Eng. post Germ. Pfosten Romansh post Lat. postis

so the initial P->Pf shift has not been carried out in Romansh!

Eng. open Germ. offen Romansh avert Lat. apertus
Eng. table Germ. Tafel Romansh tavla Lat. tabula

the p(b)->f(v) shift is present. However, such shift can also be found in French (ouvert, avoir), and as such may equally relate to Celtic influence.

Eng. cook Germ. Koch Romansh cuschinier Lat. coqus
Eng. night Germ Nacht Romansh notg Lat. noctus
Eng. eight Germ. acht Romansh otger Lat. octus

c(q)->ch is inconclusive. Romansh is no better candidate here than French (nuit, huit)

Eng. Street Germ. Straße Romansh strada Lat. stratum
Eng. what? Germ. was? Romansh tge? Lat. quod?
Eng. time Germ. Zeit Romansh temp Lat. tempus

The t(d)->s/z/ß shift is not present !

Eng. day Germ. Tag Romansh di Lat. dies
Eng. devil Germ. Teufel Romansh diavil Lat. diabolus

neither is the d->t shift!
Bottom line: 3 failures, one time inconclusive, one time yes. This puts Romansh on equal terms to French when it comes to explaining the High German sound shift. Now, for geographical reasons, French is out of discussion - otherwise, Flemish would have participated in the High German shift, which it didn't. For similar considerations, Rhaetic seems unlikely, as it would have lead to propagation from south to north (along the Rhine), instead of the actual one from the south-east (from the Danube). Moreover, Switzerland has preserved the highest dialect variability within the German language zone, and it looks unlikely that such an uniform and regular consonant shift as the High German one should emerge from a mountain area that is extremely diverse language- and dialect-wise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_German

However, some Highest Alemannic dialects, such as the Unterwalden dialect to some extent, but especially the dialect spoken in the German part of the valley of Valais (south-western Switzerland, German: Wallis), did not participate in the Second Germanic consonant shift. (..) Therefore, it is not so surprising to find similarities among the Highest Alemannic dialects in Switzerland and Low German dialects in the north of Germany.

The same phenomena are also found at different, distributed places in the Alps, mainly east of the Valais, e.g. also in the valley of Schanfigg (south-eastern Switzerland in the canton of Graubünden (En.: Grisons), where the resort Arosa is located).

Yep - you read correctly. Graubünden, the only canton where Romansh is still spoken! Rhaetic should most likely have influenced Swiss German - it may especially have caused the initial K/G->Ch shift that is so typical for Swiss German (Chrüezi!). But I don't think most of the High German consonant shift can be attributed to it.

So, how could a handful of Irish monks have influenced a whole language? First of all, one needs to realise that Standard German is a constructed language. French, e.g., evolved from the local dialect spoken around Paris, and the French kings rarely paid attention to whether anybody in the Bretagne, the Languedoc or on Corsica understood the court language. Germany never was that centralised, so academics, administrators, theologians (Luther!) and teachers put a lot of effort into harmonising the various local dialects. In doing so, they essentially looked at everything that had been written - the earlier, the better, as those old texts were deemed to be closest to "Ur"-German (which, of course, never existed). Now, as I said in my previous post, the oldest documents in German language are found in and/ or have been prepared in monasteries founded by Irish monks. What were these documents ? Mostly Old (High) German - Latin dictionaries. Prepared, of course, to assist the monastery schools in teaching novices and future priests. In addition, the schools also served for training part of the nobility (including noble women in special nunneries), lawyers, doctors, administrators, and technicians (e.g. brewing). Generations of multipliers, all with influence and high social status, and typically involved in promoting new concepts (which, of course, include new terminology, mostly derived from Latin via the said dictionaries).
Essentially, before the first universities were established in Germany after the middle of the 14th century, every Old (High) German language document has been prepared by a monastery scholar. All these documents have been taken as reference points by further generations (including Luther in his bible translation) for constructing a language that is reasonably understandable by other people from different regions with the ability to read. In other words - we have no clue whether the "natives" ever spoke such way, we don't even know when the consonant shift actually took place. We only know that among a small, monastery-trained community certain writing conventions have emerged. Luther has claimed to "have watched the people's mouth", so his translation of the Bible can be assumed to also reflect the middle-east German (Thuringia / Saxony) dialect spoken at his time, but everything before is rather speculative [Middle Low German is different, because the Hanseatic League has prepared a fairly solid stock of documents, city statutes, trade correspondence etc.].
Last but not least, it should be mentioned that until Bismarck's "Kulturkampf" in the 1890s, public schools in the Catholic areas, and especially in Bavaria, were typically run by the church, and the teachers trained in priests seminars (which in some instances evolved from or around monasteries founded by Scottish-Irish monks).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_Monastery,_Regensburg

The monastery was founded in the 11th century by Scotti, that is, Gaels. (See Hiberno-Scottish mission.) Since at this period the term Scotti did not distinguish between the two parts of Gaeldom, some of the "Scots" monks may have come from what is now Scotland, but the majority would have been from Ireland. Regensburg was an important centre for the Irish mission to central Europe, and the influential Scots monastery in Vienna was founded by monks from Regensburg in 1155/56. Other daughter establishments of St. Jakob were the Scots Monasteries in Erfurt (ca 1136), Würzburg (1138), Nuremberg (1140), Konstanz (1142), Eichstätt (1148/49), Memmingen (1178/81), Kiev (later 12th century) and Kelheim (1218?). The monks had a strong relationship with the famous school at Cashel.

Honorius Augustodunensis (died ca. 1151), a highly influential medieval theologian, spent the last years of his life in the monastery. It is also possible that the 12th-century Middle High German Kaiserchronik was written here, though this is disputed. (..)


A papal bull of 1577 transferred the monastery from Irish hands to abbots from Scotland. The Scottish monks were predominantly from lowland Scotland, and thus were generally not Gaels. (..)


In 1862 the abbey was reopened as a seminary for the Roman Catholic Diocese of Regensburg


The medieval library built up by the Irish monks included many manuscript treasures. (..) When the two last Scots monks finally left Regensburg in 1862, Anselm Robertson of Fochabers, the last prior, transported many of the greatest treasures to the Benedictine Abbey at Fort Augustus, which closed in 1998, when the Regensburg books and manuscripts were transferred to the National Library of Scotland and the Scottish Catholic Archives in Edinburgh.

Pride of place goes to a volume of texts written in 1080 by the Irish Benedictine monk Marianus, the founder of the community at Regensburg. This contains, in Marianus's hand, the earliest written Gaelic words to be found in any work in Scotland. There is also a translation of a Latin text into Scots, made in 1596 by Fr James Dalrymple and seen as of great importance as a Scots language text.^{[citation needed]}

The earliest Gaelic words, as well as an important Scots language text, were written in Germany - no wonder there are linguistic parallels!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schottenstift,_Vienna

In the foundation documents of the Schottenstift, Henry II specified that it was to be occupied exclusively by these "Iroschotten" ("Solos elegimus Scottos").Henry II was elevated from the rank of Margrave (Markgraf) to that of Duke (Herzog) in 1156. He moved his residence from Klosterneuburg to Vienna and required a monastery for his new city. In the Middle Ages, monasteries were not only places for prayer, but also and above all, repositories of knowledge. The foundation of a monastery gave the ruler support for his administration (for example, schools to educate competent scribes). It also provided a library, a hospice and old age home, architects, educated men, and priests to conduct services in the new ducal city. The "Schotten" were also involved with the University of Vienna, which was founded in 1365.

.. and that University was actually the first one in the German-speaking area !


I will come back later on your previous post.

 

[MOESAN]

were the last centuries catholic teachers of irish or Scottish origin in germany?

+
First of all: «my» rhaetic hypothesisis only a try to fill a sort of hole -
then: rhaetic is not Rhaetia: for thelittle bit we know about old Rhaetia, some scholars think twolanguages (an then two populations, maybe) were spoken in thisterritory!
Your are right when you pointout that today romances (romansch, ladin) languages spoken in apart of this ancient area (I don't know the exact limits) don' tpresent the typical evolutions of high german – they are more onthe celtic side of phonetic evolution, close enough to some french or gallo-italian dialects – but where was the core of the otherlanguage speakers? Were the people speaking the genuine 'rhaetic'(akin to etruscan) deeply mingled with Celts in the mountains, or inplains? Kept they on in the exactly same lands by the time passed? Iavow here my ignorance -
by the way, we cannot compare the /v/internal evolution of ancient P or B (never passed through a/f/ stage) in celtic languages to the direct P /p/ >> ? /ph/>>! /f/ of germanic or modern /p/ >> /pf/ of high-german– in short lenition opposed to reinforcing spiration -
just concerning intravocalic stops, the«celtic law» is lenition/lenition/lenition!!! so gaelic as well asbrittonic weakened the stops in this position what does not occur ina lot of high-german dialects – we see 'graben' in front of'graven', 'bleiben' in front of 'bleiven', 'hafen' >< 'haven',
'vat(t)er' >< 'vader', 'braten'>< 'braden',
the G question is a complicated onebecause spelling does not take in account the true pronounciation ina lot of dialects – but often enough, internal -G- disappear (or issoft-spired) as do internal -D- in more northern dialects and othergermanic languages -
&: concerning this intravocalicaspect, the most of the southwestern dialects of german show a«northern» or «niederdeutche» deportment rather than a standardone -


Now, concerning german standardcreation (a long process, nota one-time one) the scribes who created it made (I think) a kind ofmess, trying to put in accord numerous diverse dialects spred upon alarge territory where the Germanics found different distributions ofdiverse more or less mixed strata (the written treatment of initialD compared to G and B is an example of hesitations)... - but as awhole, their hesitations and questionable choices (sometimes adominant pronounciation, sometime a minor one) proves they had to dowith local genuine (and so, popular) vehicular dialects - the todaylocal subdialectsshow spoken languages evolutions which root back in far past, and nota more recent breakdown of an artificial written 'koine' -


youare working very hard and put me in a "bad" situtation because I havesome other «works» to do and I cannot answer you so precisely onevery aspect I would do – I 'll try to examine your lists of wordsone by one -

&:recall: the most of gaelic words in F- are ancient W-

 

[MOESAN]

just a remark to Maciamo: very often when I "paste" a previously typed text, I see some spaces between words are not always conderved...?

 

[MOESAN]

Iam afraid you are not allowed to attack me,under the forum rules,butyou can dis-agree with what I am saying.
Now to go back ontopic,is well known fact that in Romania and in the land of todaySouth Slavic speaking people from South Danube are plenty of Celticarcheological discoveries.
So is quite impossible to not have loanwords in South Slavic and Romanian from Celtic languages.
(enjoythe pictures ot Celtic archeological discoveries from these 2links,try to contradictthese with hard evidence not "is not like that because I said sois not like that!"-this argument have 0 as value.)
Isalso well known and accepted by scientists in Romania that are Celticwords in Romanian language,inherited from the time ofDacians.
However,thereis no genetic trace of Turkic DNA in the people from Galati,so Ithink it rather come from some Celtic(Gauls included in Celtic)people that settled there.
Ido not need your opinions as "authority" in interpretingwhich words are inherited in Romanian and South Slavic from Celtic ornot,in fact,I do not value your opinions on this matter toomuch.
EDIT:Onemore thing,the evolution of languages is much more to complex to beexplained with simple rules like "this sound went to thatsound". In Romania,but not only in Romania,take Sweden,samelanguage have various forms as you travel from a region,to anotherregion (call them dialects).I think is same in most European countries and these dialects havethe pronunciation of same word a little different,in same language.The comparisons here are made based on a single dialect of Celticlanguage,against another dialect of today language.

I see my words did upon you moreeffect than I was expecting: I only said my feelings concerning somestraightover links you did (or I thought you did) – I beg yourpardon, if it can soften your pain; but I see your ego can lead youto shoot some very sharpened arrows to me – by the way, yourattempts to find some links between words of diverse languages is agood thing: a lot of scientific works begin with hypothesis beforeverifications; so you can do it, as I do myself, without myauthorization (of no worth)! But i have the right too to discuss yourinterpretations as you can discuss my ones – so I put my gun in mypocket and you can do the same –
I am not an «authority»,I said more than a time I was an «amateur» (but for 50 years) butwhen I express some doubts concerning phonetic laws I am very oftenbased to do it – it is not yesterday I began to compare languages(if you want to speak about 15 breton or welsh subdialects or 7/8alsacian subdialects phonetic evolutions) -
concerning bran/vrana,do ask scientists if you know someone – perhaps will you havedifferent answer???
celtic old words in Romanian?: Idon't know, my knowledge is short (I did some years ago a comparisonlist of all european I-E languages (standard) + a bit of sanskrit,industani and persian, but concerning very basic words, so lessloanwords than we can expect for other life grounds – it is notsufficient: principal dialects could have been added: I have someonesat hand, but I did not put them in the list)- shortly said: it isvery possible, but what ones? And the best is to have ancient forms!- some I-Ean cognates conserved in celtic languages and romanian canput us to believe they were loanwords of the antiquity when they werecommon I-E very older?... - is tat(-ul) «father» a celtic word loaned by old Romanians or an I-E cognate: Ivote for this last opinion for more than a reason but?...

• dialectal changes in pronounciation? Yes, who contests that? every dialect has its story but the last result is not an anarchic one, as a whole: it can be traced to older forms more common and spred at some stage of history – some words can escape the «laws» but the bulk of the language respects these rules: when two languages, geographically (and sometimes, chronogically) far one from another present two phonetically close enough forms of words for a close meaning, the first conclusion to adopt is a coincidence rather than a direct link, I think -
  some west-central german dialects had 'bat' for 'wat'= 'was' – it is surprising but could be a «celtic attitude» in front of a sonore spirant consonnant at the beginning of a word – I say that, it is not completely stupid, but it deserves more proofs than my genial idea...
  
• some sounds transformations seem ever or never occurring in some languages in some places of words (for now): is that a personal affirmation or a fact?: I try to base myself upon checked collective historical facts what is not saying we can be sure everytime, but statistical constats have some value nevertheless in linguistic, I think -
  
• my poor opinion concerning celtic origin words in slavic or romanian languages? I think I can more easily discard some impossible hypothesis than affirm a word is I-E cognate or some language loan, even if I can bet it sometimes with some sense – it is still my opinion, not Gods word -

Earthis going its way, whatever we say...
Goodevening

 

[FrankN]

First of all: «my» rhaetic hypothesisis only a try to fill a sort of hole -
-

I know. I brought it up originally, without checking myself, and after checking I turned it down again.

then: rhaetic is not Rhaetia: for thelittle bit we know about old Rhaetia, some scholars think twolanguages (an then two populations, maybe) were spoken in thisterritory!
Your are right when you pointout that today romances (romansch, ladin) languages spoken in apart of this ancient area (I don't know the exact limits) don' tpresent the typical evolutions of high german – they are more onthe celtic side of phonetic evolution, close enough to some french or gallo-italian dialects – but where was the core of the otherlanguage speakers? Were the people speaking the genuine 'rhaetic'(akin to etruscan) deeply mingled with Celts in the mountains, or inplains? Kept they on in the exactly same lands by the time passed? Iavow here my ignorance -

Wikipedia has a map on the area where Rhaetic inscripions were found - essentialy North & South Tyrolia, and Trentino down to Verona. That is a major transit area, so most likely already in prehistoric times languages in the main valleys would have mingled, while side valleys would have preserved particular idioms.

by the way, we cannot compare the /v/internal evolution of ancient P or B (never passed through a/f/ stage) in celtic languages to the direct P /p/ >> ? /ph/>>! /f/ of germanic or modern /p/ >> /pf/ of high-german– in short lenition opposed to reinforcing spiration -
just concerning intravocalic stops, the«celtic law» is lenition/lenition/lenition!!! so gaelic as well asbrittonic weakened the stops in this position what does not occur ina lot of high-german dialects – we see 'graben' in front of'graven', 'bleiben' in front of 'bleiven', 'hafen' >< 'haven',
'vat(t)er' >< 'vader', 'braten'>< 'braden',
the G question is a complicated onebecause spelling does not take in account the true pronounciation ina lot of dialects – but often enough, internal -G- disappear (or issoft-spired) as do internal -D- in more northern dialects and othergermanic languages -
&: concerning this intravocalicaspect, the most of the southwestern dialects of german show a«northern» or «niederdeutche» deportment rather than a standardone

You are right. Celtic languages are unlikely to directly have caused the High German consonant shift, otherwise it would have been most pronounced in Alemannic dialects. My idea was more about monks coming from Ireland to Germany, having problems to pronounce some of the south-German sounds, and creating a compatible compromise, that is then promoted via (monastery) school teaching. Say - the locals pronounce "open" as "opfen", the Irish monks as "oscail" or "ouvert", and what emerges as compromise is "offen".
That leaves of course the question of what caused the original shifts, including the Bavarian b->p (berg->perg) shift And, thinking about it, Celtic (Celto-Rhaetian?) influence is, even without Irish monks, a plausible explanation for the two northernmost shifts, namely k/c/q->ch (maken - machen), and p->f (Dorp - Dorf), The Irish monks just help to explain why these lines continue further from the Rhine into easterly direction (but Celtic residues in Bohemia could have provided for the same).

were the last centuries catholic teachers of irish or Scottish origin in Germany?

Of course not, if one assumes the Irish-scotch monks were faithful to their oath of celibacy.. That argument of mine was rather weak, I confess.

youare working very hard and put me in a "bad" situtation because I havesome other «works» to do and I cannot answer you so precisely onevery aspect I would do – I 'll try to examine your lists of wordsone by one -

I don't want to put you in a bad situation. I was curious for your expertise (even if an "amateur", you obviously have been thinking about linguistics a lot and for a long time). But I realise that I am about to hi-jack your thread, so I suggest we leave the discussion of the evolution of Standard German to another time and/or thread, and continue with the word lists.
The linguistic imprint the Boi left in Bohemia is, btw. also a quite interesting topic, so we might check Czech language parallels in that context as well. The same goes in principle for Romania, but in both cases one should also consider the possibility of some medieval transfer via German settlers.

 

[MOESAN]

here some ideas, but I am sure of nothing:

Slavics: Rus: vóron : «raven» / Csech: vrán : «crow», «rook» + bilá vrán : «white blackbird» (!) + vrabec : «sparrow» / Pol: wrona : «crow», «rook» + wróbel : «sparrow» / Bulg : vrana : «crow», «rook» >< garvan : «raven» + vrabče : «sparrow» / SrbCr : vrana : «crow», «rook» + vrabac : «sparrow» -



celtics have: Gael : bran : «raven» / Britt : brân : «raven» -
a very hypothetic bet would be a common origin for slavic and celtic languages here – as we know celtic languages don't accept spirant consonnants at the beginnings of words and that they transform sometimes in construction the /B/ into a /V/ at the beginning of words, we could imagine they loaned a non-celtic word in °°vran- at some stage of their story (scholars think 'bran' is not an I-Ean root, so non-celtic, rather a substrata word): by the fact, bran in celtic is treated as a feminine word and undergoes the lenitive mutation at the singular after determinant article: bran, y frân, ar vran -
we know some loaned words as french «vélo-cipède» (masculine) >> breton belo, ar velo (feminine!) - french «vautour» masculine (<< Lat *vultur-is) >> breton bultur/burtul, ar vultur/ar vurtul feminine ! This transformation occurs upon words in /V-/, no more pronounced in /W-/, otherwise they turn into words in F- (Gael-) or Gw- (Britt-) - a tiny possibility here for a pre-I-Ean word of the whole Europe ?!? I nevertheless remain cautious ...
I think the slavic root *Vr- >> **Vr-n- (and perhaps **Vr-b- ???) concerns this whole family of noisy and unpleasant birds – but the ancient pronouciation could have been: /Wr-/ and not immediatly /Vr-/ -


the Germ-Engl- raven comes from a *hraban : German rabe, Dutch raaf, sometime *Hramn-/Hrafn in old scandinavic names – is would come from I-E k°r-/Kor- concept of «shout», «cry» (see: Greek krazô «to shout» / korax «raven» - Sskrt króçati «to shout» - Lat corvus «raven» + creparer «to creak» >> crepitare, French crever /
&: by the way, french cri/crier (>>cry) comes from Lat quiritare «to call the citizens» !!!

the slavic words in Bran have nothing to do neither with the celtic "crow" "raven" concept nor with the slavic others words in Vran, for I think!

I answer myself : I hope I 'll be tolerant with myself:

I realize here I had not thought in the english word WREN / french: "roitelet", an other bird too (but more singing than shouting) ( ponetically it seems more convenient with slavic vrana

 

[MOESAN]

dail >< teil : I think more in a romance loan :fr- 'délai' >> bret- 'dale'
daimh [dai(v)]? / >< dam-hirsch : maybe I-E or W-IE root, see britt- 'defaid', 'dañvad/deñved : «sheep(s)» fr- 'daim' (-M- intravocalic ->> -V- in the celtic languages)
damnain >< verdammen : surely a loan from latin
dean >< tuen (to do, doen in dutch): the D- in lower-germanic languages, like the D- in gaelic, is confusing: a loan between germanic and celtic?- but where from and where onto?
deoir/deur >< zerren : I doubt, I think more in träne, dutch traan («tear»): the german Tr- can surprise but I see NO german word in ZR- (the R surely stopped the mutation T>>Z ?)- the I-E or W-IE could be in dak-r/dag-r (Britt- dagr/daer, latin lacrima >> french larme see I-E **dingwa>> latin lingua)
deud >< zähne (zahn) : definitely an I-E word (britt- dant, romances: dent-/dient-, dutch tand, greek dondo- ?????????????????????????????????,,
dachaidh >< daheim (?) : nothing in common: bases dach- >><< heim – but, ironically enough, a possible common origin could be supposed with gaelic dach- << °dakk- english deck?, dutch dek, german dach: the D- in german/dutch seem << old Th SO is is not the same root, at first sight and the english deck could be a dutch loanword ??????????????????????????????????????
diluchtaim >> löschen : nothing in common: gaelic di + lucht «charge», britt- llwyth, leizh – the german prototype would have been in °losk-
dleacht >< anrecht : gaelic root °dle britt- welsh dyled/ bret- dle/dele/(gle) completely # germanic recht (right, rätt) <> latin rect- <> britt- reith/reizh maybe loan from latin
docht >< dicht : ??? english tight checks better...
doras >< tür : wellknown all I-E root *dhur- (sanskrit dvârah, greek thura, slavics dvor, latin for- >> forum, forestis ...no specific link here
dorm : dorn >< daumen (thumb) (<< *tum-) : no link (I-E *teu- to swell)
duine >< deutsche : the german root is from I-E (or W-IE only?) *teut- (see gael- tuatha, britt- tud, found too in gaulish – I'm not sure but in think too in latin totus,french tout/tous, span- todo(s)
eisir >< auster : seem being from greek *ostr- >> ostreon «oyster» >> latin ostreum
faghail >< fehler : see latin fallita, fallere? - french faute, faillir...+ english loanwords – the gaelic here is surely a recent enough loanword from «french» english to fail -
folamh (fallambh scott-gael?)>< fehlen : the meanings bridge was interesting but it does not work: folamh <> bret- goullo/goullew << ? °°wol(l)em- the second -L- in breton is dubious : maybe °°wo- («under», «less»)+ °°lan-m/lan-b «full»???)/ for fehlen, look above -
fiascaim >< befestigem : gaelic is compared to britt- gwasg-/gwask- «to squeeze», «to press», «to compress»...so << °wask- completely # from fast- ? << °past- ??? (a possible link with wash, wassen, waschen, väska?- because pressing webs or clothes was part of their washing/cleaning? See britt- cannu/kannañ : «to fight» («to beat, strike») + «to wash clothes» but here we can hesitate: °cat-n («fight-») OR °can-d (latin «candidus»: «white», meaning of «whiting wash»???

 

[MOESAN]

feach <>wachen : a possible link with agermanic word, more than a link with britt- (g)weled -
feachd(scott-) <>fechten (fight, vucht) : verypossible too, as britt- faezh («defeated»>>»outof strenght») << faeth << °fact-(same as latin fact-?)...
fiuch>> fliuch !!!
fear <>wiese : ? the welshcorresponding word is gwair <<?°°war-i ???
fearna <>föhre : nothing common here –fearna <> britt- gwern << °wer-n –the germanic word supposes a I-E *P-root if it is not a more recent loan (it doesn't seem like)...
féar <>wohl : the long vowel of germanis curious, it is rather short in english and dutch (well/wel) but that does not discard a very possible common origin with R<>L?britt- gwell -
fiadhaich<> wild : not sure at all– britt- g[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ŵ[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ydd/gouez–[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]but I-E had [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*wi-[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1) «peculiar», «special» + [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*wi- [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2)«vigor», «strength» so...? [/FONT]
fiodhull(scott-) / fidil(irish) <>fiedel : for me a recent enoughloan to a germanic language (english - more ancient loan in 'erse':scottish gaelic)- french vielle isfrom german -
fiodoir <>fetzen : I'm not a specialistbut gaelic fiodoir seemsclose to breton gweañ «totwist» >> gwiader/gweader «weaver»,welsh gweau «toweave» - I-E had *webh- + *weg- «toweave» -
fetzenseems a reflex of °peten/ petten (?) : veryspeculatively << ? same as celtic *pett- >>
popul-latin*pettia >> frenchpièce (see britt-peth/pezh) «piece»???an old loan in german from ancient romance??? or from lastlatin???
fior/fear +firinne <> wahr + wahrheit :yes, I-E *wir- ,french ver°/vrai >> vérité,english ? very, dutch waar, britt-gwir, czech- v[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ě[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ru[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]«indeed»,«truly»...[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]foir<> fahren [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]:no link, I think (°W- >< °P- ? link with [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]far/ver/fern[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]?)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]foirceann<> ferne [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]:I'm sure of nothing, but gaelic [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]foirceann[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]couldbe °°[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]for[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](«super»/«over.über», britt- suffix [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]gor-/gour-<< *wer-[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif])+ [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ceann = [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]britt-[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]pen/penn[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](«head»,«extremity») [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]gorffen/gourfenn[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]«past»,«finale» - [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ferne[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]could correspond to [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]fahren[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]???[/FONT]

 

[RobertColumbia]

It could be that Brennus was a typical Gallic title and not a surname; the rest is Sanskrit and thats the bridge;
The Indo-European bridge; maybe there is something to it maybe not; prob. not who knows;

True. and titles can sometimes become names. For example, Earl and Duke are sometimes used as names in the USA. Former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court Earl Warren wasn't a nobleman (we don't have them) - his first name was actually Earl. So perhaps Brennus was originally from an Italo-Celtic cognate form of the Indo-Iranian Brahmin title and was later re-purposed when the concept of being Brennus was no longer emphasized or important.