More evidence that the PIE R1b people originated in the Maykop culture

[zanipolo]

We could use this as evidence for G2a being more ancient in Europe than E1b, but it doesn't quite square with our expectations unless we push the G2a arrival date back to quite a lot more than a thousand years earlier (otherwise we would expect a closer similarity than .3%). But a Paleolithic G2a is tough to match with its diversity patterns outside of Europe. So I think we should instead look for alternate explanations. The obvious one is that the E1b-V13 and G2a arrived around the same time but had different diversity to begin with, and the few E1b-V13 lines bottlenecked to one later, while the G2a lines maintained their diversity via multiple lineages. That is, the ancient European E1b-V13 sample could be pretty close to being a direct ancestor of all European E1b-V13 lineages, whereas the ancient G2a samples may not have their lines connect to modern European G2a until you go back long before any G2a arrived in Europe. Ancient similarity to modern populations may be used as evidence for migration times, but it can be highly misleading.

Oetzi was G2a4, also found in tyrolese, ladins and other minor alpine races............isn't this older than E
Also G2a3b is in northern italy and southern france at around same period.

IMO G2 is older than E

 

[Maciamo]

OK, but I would argue that G2a is much older than E1b in Europe. Dienekes has shown that the ancient markers for E1b1b1a1b are 14% similar to current E1b populations, where ancient G2a was only about .3%. I think if E1b was earlier than G2b (or same age) it would be more distant to modern populations like G2a. I bet E1b first appeared on the scene around 5000BC, where G2a had been there for at least thousand years earlier.

I really think that there is too little data at the moment to judge that. Age estimates of haplogroups are still a very unreliable, as I have explained here.

 

[Maciamo]

J1, J2, and E1b1b have been in south-west asia at least since the Neolithic, with E1b1b found more in Levant/Anatolia. Old R1b (M269 or older) was also sharing the same area, but I doubt it was ever a majority, at least not in the late Neolithic or Bronze Age. Remember that there has also been back migration of R1b in the Bronze-Age into south-west asia.

Don't look at the whole Middle East as if it was a monolithic block. Modern populations are much more mixed than Neolithic ones, which evolved from completely separate tribes of hunter-gatherers. It is very likely that in the Neolithic the Middle East was still a patchwork of relatively homogeneous communities with only one or two dominant haplogroups. It's only since the Bronze Age, with the rise of civilisations and states that populations started to blend with one another, a process that continued and intensified with time. I am convinced that if you looked at the population of one region every one thousand years, we would see a clear diminution of the haplogroup diversity as we go back in time. In other words, in the Neolithic the Middle East had pockets of R1b, pockets of J1, pockets of J2, pockets of G2a, etc. I expect that few of them were 100% homogeneous, but most neolithic villages or towns probably had over 80% of a single haplogroup. This is what has been observed by Lacan et al. in Neolithic France and Spain too.

 

[Maciamo]

This is a very important point which we should consider more often. Even if agriculture did not originate there, it was once fertile and almost surely populated. When desertification started, these pre-saharan populations surely migrated somewhere else (maybe Bell Beakers?).

The last desertification of the Sahara started 6,200 years ago, about 1,400 years before the Beaker culture started. But it is not impossible that the Beaker people originated in Northwest Africa and crossed over to Iberia because of population pressures brought on by the advance of the Sahara desert. That would explain why there is so much E-M81 in western Iberia, especially in the north-west, which was the region least affected by the Moorish conquest. I wrote about this hypothesis of E1b1b migration from North Africa in the Late Neolithic nearly two years ago.

 

[Maciamo]

We could use this as evidence for G2a being more ancient in Europe than E1b, but it doesn't quite square with our expectations unless we push the G2a arrival date back to quite a lot more than a thousand years earlier (otherwise we would expect a closer similarity than .3%). But a Paleolithic G2a is tough to match with its diversity patterns outside of Europe. So I think we should instead look for alternate explanations. The obvious one is that the E1b-V13 and G2a arrived around the same time but had different diversity to begin with, and the few E1b-V13 lines bottlenecked to one later, while the G2a lines maintained their diversity via multiple lineages. That is, the ancient European E1b-V13 sample could be pretty close to being a direct ancestor of all European E1b-V13 lineages, whereas the ancient G2a samples may not have their lines connect to modern European G2a until you go back long before any G2a arrived in Europe. Ancient similarity to modern populations may be used as evidence for migration times, but it can be highly misleading.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Maciamo]

I just have a few Questions;

According to our data the wave of Uruk migrants moving from the south to the north covered the entire territory of the Caucasus in the 4th millennium B.C.It is believed that precisely this integration of indigenous and incoming cultures made possible the emergence of the so-called magnificent Maikop culture in the north-western part of the Caucasus. It is possible that a similar process was simultaneously developing in the South Caucasus as well, where it left a noticeable trace. The transformation was so significant that it is reasonable to presume that Uruk migrants together with the local population participated in the creation of the powerful Kura-Araxes culture in the South Caucasus of the Early Bronze Age.

This is very clear;
both Maykop and Kura-Araxes are hybrid cultures- from Indigenous and Uruk/Mesopotamia [south] migrants;
But who exactly are these Indigenous people?

The indigenous people were the Neolithic populations that had colonised the Caucasus in the Early Neolithic, but had since lagged behind considerably in technological advances compared to the Middle East. There are so many population pockets in the modern Caucasus that it is difficult to say whether the pre-Maykop populations belonged to G2a, J1 or J2.

Understandably, the scientists had enough ground to formulate their conviction. From the start they supported this assumption by the fact that the burial mounds were typical of the ancient pit-grave culture and already present throughout the northern steppe zone in the 4th millennium B.C., whereas there were no mounds of such construction in Southwest Asia. This was why they assumed that even the magnificent Maikop culture absorbed the technique of building this type of burial mounds as a result of its contacts with the steppe area cultures [81: 75].
At present the situation has changed drastically. On the basis of a whole series of radiocarbon analyses, it has been proved [15; 82] that burial mounds of the ancient pit-grave culture are of a significantly later period in comparison with Maikop archaeological sites. This allows scholars to assume that the tradition of building this type of burial mounds emerged precisely in the Maikop culture. Its ties with Levant and Mesopotamian antiquities point to its earlier origin [15: 97].

This is not very clear;
Does this suggest that the Steppe peoples [Sredny Stog -> Yamna culture] invaded/infiltrated the Maykop culture in a later period?
Or does this suggest that the Maykop culture was autochthonous and developed a similar culture akin to Yamna based on its ties with Mesopotamia???

My understanding is the Yamna culture (which started around 3300BCE) is an offshoot of the Maykop culture (which started around 3700BCE), which itself originated in Anatolia or Mesopotamia. Yamna and Maykop later merged into, or were replaced by the Catacomb culture, circa 2500 BCE.

 

[Maciamo]

Those of you who have followed my ramblings for awhile may remember that I stated it was only a matter of time before R1b would claim Gobekli Tepe.

It's not impossible based on its geographic location, but what were your arguments for an R1b settlement there instead of another haplogroup (notably G2a, J1, J2 and T) ?

 

[Maciamo]

I wonder Vinca culture (Varna Necropolis) revael its genetical secrets.

Most probably a blend of G2a, E1b1b and I2a1b, perhaps with some J1 and T.

 

[nordicwarrior]

It's not impossible based on its geographic location, but what were your arguments for an R1b settlement there instead of another haplogroup (notably G2a, J1, J2 and T) ?

My comment about R1b "claiming" Gobekli Tepe have more to do with this haplogroup's tendencies to grab ahold of the good stuff no matter what science has to say of the matter. For example-- Spencer Wells and his R1b first into Europe comments, his tale of R1b being the group that founded Cro-Magnon, even R1b garnering the "highest" spot on the alphabetic nomenclature. I said my earlier comment on this thread tongue-in-cheek, but only partially so.

While it is possible that R1b had outposts at the start of Gobekli Tepe (which was over 11,000 years ago)... it's far more likely the groups laying the foundation of this settlement where members of hg. I, J1, J2, or G2a. I would think branches of hg. E would have a greater chance of being present during the construction than either R1b or R1a.

 

[adamo]

I hate people trying to make links between Chatal Hoyuk, Gobekli Tepe ( ancient Anatolia in general) and R1b. To me all these ancient sites across turkey, the Urartians of Armenia etc. are linked to the spread of j2 from Mesopotamia to other northern regions of the Middle East; the R1b element was present but very secondary, at very low %, they did not "dominate hurrian or Hittite societies, the J2 was the main elements. The northern Middle East (fertile crescent) has been for thousand and thousands of years, J2 dominated, not R1b.

 

[Yetos]

Most probably a blend of G2a, E1b1b and I2a1b, perhaps with some J1 and T.

I agree about G2a, but I don't agree about E1b.
the more ancient in nearby Konya is 2-2,500 years after the destruction of Vinca, almost same time with Hettits or just little earlier

so you believe that J2 came later with iron age? or bronze age? and did not exist in Vinca?
and you tottaly exclude R1a to exist in Vinca/Varna ?

 

[Maciamo]

I hate people trying to make links between Chatal Hoyuk, Gobekli Tepe ( ancient Anatolia in general) and R1b. To me all these ancient sites across turkey, the Urartians of Armenia etc. are linked to the spread of j2 from Mesopotamia to other northern regions of the Middle East; the R1b element was present but very secondary, at very low %, they did not "dominate hurrian or Hittite societies, the J2 was the main elements. The northern Middle East (fertile crescent) has been for thousand and thousands of years, J2 dominated, not R1b.

You can't possibly know that. Who would have guessed that the European Neolithic was dominated by G2a ? Haplogroup J2 seems to have expanded fairly late, like R1b. If there is one very old haplogroup, in addition to G and E1b1b, that I would associate with the early Neolithic in Mesopotamia, it would be haplogroup T. As I explained above, I believe that E1b1b, G and T were the three haplogroups that invented and diffused agriculture. Some R1b might have been with them, but only the V88 branch. On the other hand, I am confident that all subclades of E1b1b1, G1, G2 and T are linked to the development of agriculture.

 

[Maciamo]

so you believe that J2 came later with iron age? or bronze age? and did not exist in Vinca?
and you tottaly exclude R1a to exist in Vinca/Varna ?

Yes, pretty much.

 

[Goga]

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/05/stanislav-grigorievs-ancient-indo.html

Dienekes is so right! I do also believe that ancient Indo-European clades of hg. R1b originally came not far from the South of the Caspian Sea (Zagros/Iranian Plateau). Later on hg. R1b moved more to the west into Asia Minor/Central Anatolia and formed the Halaf culture. And from that spot they spread into Europe maybe through Greece or maybe through North Caucasus.
But the fact is that ancient R1b folks that entered Europe were already Indo-European. R1b was NOT Indo-Europized by R1a or something, lol. I'm sure about that.

 

[Luan]

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/05/stanislav-grigorievs-ancient-indo.html

Dienekes is so right! I do also believe that ancient Indo-European clades of hg. R1b originally came not far from the South of the Caspian Sea (Zagros/Iranian Plateau). Later on hg. R1b moved more to the west into Asia Minor/Central Anatolia and formed the Halaf culture. And from that spot they spread into Europe maybe through Greece or maybe through North Caucasus.
But the fact is that ancient R1b folks that entered Europe were already Indo-European. R1b was NOT Indo-Europized by R1a or something, lol. I'm sure about that.

Very interesting.

 

[nordicwarrior]

Maciamo, it's believed Gobekli Tepe was built by hunter-gatherers, not by a population practicing agriculture.

 

[LeBrok]

Maciamo, it's believed Gobekli Tepe was built by hunter-gatherers, not by a population practicing agriculture.

This is impossible for pure hunter-gatherers to build bigger settlements as Gobeki Tepe. I don't mean their mental capacity but population numbers to be able to build on this scale. Remember that agriculture started slowly (like everything else) and even its beginning took few thousand years. They needed to develop efficient techniques and seeds had to go through genetic modification, all to be right for large scale farming.
I would say that Gobeki Tepe is in time period of either, start of agriculture, and most likely it was limited to house gardens, or (and) already fairly extensive herding. Herding is hard to prove by scientists at this stage, because their herding animals were exactly same as wild variety. It took time to develope breeds only found in human control today.

Once again, I don't think any hunter-gatherer society had their population numbers large enough to start any big settlement, not mentioning civilisation. Not enough food, therefore not enough people. Plus, there is not even one established evidence from archeology of civilization of hunter-gatherers. Food is the reason.

 

[nordicwarrior]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm in agreement with LeBrok.

Yes, it's all about food when talking about a development like Gobekli Tepe. You can't build if you can't eat.

What I've read about concerning this site is that thousands of years ago, the area received much more rainfall and that it was teeming with life... both plants and animals. (I'm only repeating what the archeologists working the excavation have said.) It was the perfect combination of favorable climate, edible fruits, and plentiful game. Every expert I've read concerning Gobekli Tepe has indicated hunter-gatherer-- made possible only because of a rare and unusual food bounty.

I have a large chunk (if not the majority) of Gobekli Tepe founders as hg I. Of course as an member of haplogroup I-- I must admit a pronounced bias. But my reasoning is simple-- hg. I always seems to be attached to stone monoliths throughout it's history, and Gobekli Tepe is basically concentric rings of stone monoliths.

 

[Maciamo]

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/05/stanislav-grigorievs-ancient-indo.html

Dienekes is so right! I do also believe that ancient Indo-European clades of hg. R1b originally came not far from the South of the Caspian Sea (Zagros/Iranian Plateau). Later on hg. R1b moved more to the west into Asia Minor/Central Anatolia and formed the Halaf culture. And from that spot they spread into Europe maybe through Greece or maybe through North Caucasus.
But the fact is that ancient R1b folks that entered Europe were already Indo-European. R1b was NOT Indo-Europized by R1a or something, lol. I'm sure about that.

Until recently Dienekes had always said that R1b and IE languages came to Europe during the Neolithic, while I insisted that they only came during the Bronze Age. This new theory of Grigoriev and others linking the Proto-Indo-European with the Halaf culture is actually in agreement with the views I always supported, namely that R1b PIE people came from eastern Anatolia or northern Mesopotamia before they moved to the North Caucasus and the Pontic Steppe from circa 4000 BCE. The Halaf culture ended around 5400 BCE, so that still leaves 1,500 years before the migration north.

 

[Maciamo]

Maciamo, it's believed Gobekli Tepe was built by hunter-gatherers, not by a population practicing agriculture.

Actually only the early settlement of Göbekli Tepe was built by hunter-gatherers. The community later domesticated animals and even started farming a bit. Anyway, what's your point ? I have always said that the first haplogroups to domesticate animals were hg J and R1b (as opposed to farming, first developed by E1b1b, G and T).