More on the Tollensee Valley battle site inc. genetics

PCA based on K36 Unofficial Oracle averages. We have three clusters and one Baltic outlier:)

7 WEZians in "Slavic"
1 "Baltic"
10 in "Germanic"
3 in "Med"
pca.png


All have very low quality. Best one has 21000 snps, lowest 2500. Polako checked them also and the same quality. So the resulsts are very vague and could be misleading.
 
WEZ16 is an older Neolithic sample, from 2900 BC. Didn't take part in the battle.
 
So we have 8 Slavo-Balts vs. 10 Germanics + 2 Mediterranean mercenaries. :)
 
WEZ64 - Slavic cluster
WEZ15 - Slavic cluster
WEZ40 - Slavic cluster
WEZ58 - Slavic cluster
WEZ77 - Slavic cluster
WEZ63 - Slavic cluster
WEZ61 - Slavic cluster
WEZ56 - Baltic cluster

WEZ57 - Med cluster
WEZ54 - Med cluster

WEZ35 - Germanic cluster
WEZ59 - Germanic cluster
WEZ71 - Germanic cluster
WEZ51 - Germanic cluster
WEZ74 - Germanic cluster
WEZ39 - Germanic cluster
WEZ48 - Germanic cluster
WEZ83 - Germanic cluster
WEZ53 - Germanic cluster
WEZ24 - Germanic cluster
 
Sorry I made mistake in counting:)

10 Germanics and 7 Slavic is correct.

Wez15 22123 - Slavic cluster
WEZ57 14342 - Med cluster
WEZ61 13817 - Slavic cluster
WEZ54 11571 - Med cluster
WEZ35-2 11531 - Germanic cluster
WEZ56 11193 - Baltic
WEZ59 11009 - Germanic cluster
WEZ64-1 10481 - Slavic cluster
WEZ40 8640 - Slavic cluster
WEZ58 8444 - Slavic cluster

WEZ71 6561 - Germanic cluster
WEz51 6252 - Germanic cluster

WEZ77 6207 - Slavic cluster
WEZ83 5702 - Germanic cluster
WEZ53 5669 - Germanic cluster

WEZ24 5391 - Germanic cluster
WEZ63 4892 - Slavic cluster

WEZ74 3997 - Germanic cluster
WEZ39 3748 - Germanic cluster
WEZ48 2510 - Germanic cluster

WEZ16 2421 - neolithic?
 
PCA with PC1 on longer x axis

pca2.png
 
Sorry I made mistake in counting:)

10 Germanics and 7 Slavic is correct.

And 1 Balt which can be added to these 7 Slavs, in total 8.

Apparently Germanics lost the battle because more of them died.

Unless both of Mediterranean mercenaries were on Slavic side. :)
 
And 1 Balt which can be added to these 7 Slavs, in total 8.

Apparently Germanics lost the battle because more of them died.

Unless both of Mediterranean mercenaries were on Slavic side. :)

Not mercenaries because I doubt in mercenary in primitive Brozne Age societies. But local neolithics.

I don't give a **** who win. Apparently they were similar to modern Mecklemburg (Germano-Salvic mix).
 
Also there weren't Slavs anf Germanics in Bronze Age, are you aware of that I thought:)

Only some proto-populations. Those proto-Slavic were probably Lusatian like.
 
Not mercenaries because I doubt in mercenary in primitive Brozne Age societies. But local neolithics.

That's not what isotopes suggest, they came from far away:

"Two major groups can be distinguished in the isotope data, along with evidence for different homelands for some of the individuals."

These individual "outliers" are probably Mediterranean guys.
 
Apparently they were similar to modern Mecklemburg (Germano-Salvic mix).

Except that they were not a mix, but two genetically different populations.

They were not 20 Mecklenburgians, but 10 Mazovians + 10 Rhinelanders. :)
 
Here is where the battle took place, obviously between "Nordics" and "Lusatians":

EyHgjzZ.png
 
The date is similar to that of the invading Sea Peoples in the Eastern Mediterranean sea and the continental expansion of the Urnfield culture aka Celts... I wonder if archaeology and isotopes allow a Celtic raid from Austria or somelike.
 
And 1 Balt which can be added to these 7 Slavs, in total 8.

Apparently Germanics lost the battle because more of them died.

Unless both of Mediterranean mercenaries were on Slavic side. :)

it was on the road across the swamps from south to the Baltic areas - there were not many alternative roads to cross these swamps
it looks like the invaders were stopped - there was no dramatic turnover in Baltic societies around that time
 
their weaponry is primitive, but still simple farmers wouldn't have such weaponry

Not mercenaries because I doubt in mercenary in primitive Brozne Age societies. But local neolithics.

I don't give a **** who win. Apparently they were similar to modern Mecklemburg (Germano-Salvic mix).
 
So we have 8 Slavo-Balts vs. 10 Germanics + 2 Mediterranean mercenaries. :)
Nope. With low quality samples they will plot all over bigger area "pretending" to belong to modern ethnic groups. Give me more samples I will calculate the average guy.
 
Not mercenaries because I doubt in mercenary in primitive Brozne Age societies. But local neolithics.

I don't give a **** who win. Apparently they were similar to modern Mecklemburg (Germano-Salvic mix).
Could you please put more samples into gedmatch? Thanks.
 
I’m not sure how useful it is to try and label these people as “slavic." Early Slavs were much more primitive than the Bronze age cultures that preceded them and the slavic languages didn’t even have native words to describe the sea, the environment near to where the battle took place. Slavic speakers from modern Greece could communicate with Slavic speakers of Poland and the Czech Republic as recently as the ninth century AD which points to a recent diversification. I could see one group being labeled as proto-germanic though, the nordic bronze age culture had reached the area by that time and genetically a few appear Scandinavian like. They haven’t found the residence of the people native to the area that fought in the battle yet so even that description is speculative.

I do believe we are dealing with two separate populations though and not just from the genetic evidence, the fact is also made clear by the isotopic analysis.

The date is similar to that of the invading Sea Peoples in the Eastern Mediterranean sea and the continental expansion of the Urnfield culture aka Celts... I wonder if archaeology and isotopes allow a Celtic raid from Austria or somelike.

The group that traveled north is presumed to be from the Czech Republic, given they look more east than west european genetically I’d say Lusatian and not Urnfield.

The Sardinian-shifted guy dates to 2900 BC not 1000 BC, so a "Neolithic farmer."
who is this north-Italian WEZ54 ?

It makes sense that Welzin16 was from an earlier time period, but Welzin54 and 57 are also clearly southern Europeans and out of place here. I only remember the Isotopic analysis describing one group being local and having a maritime diet and a foreign one relying on a terrestrial diet. I think it'd be important for the study to also mention the isotopic analysis of Welzin54 and Welzin57 as separate groups since they represent genetic outliers compared to the two major factions, it might shed light on where they came from.(And it doesnt look like they came from the same spot either, one looks Iberian the other Italian)
 

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