Most ancient Europeans had dark skin, eyes and hair up until 3,000 years ago, new research finds

[Pax Augusta]

Of course we prefer to resurrect Mithras, not Zoroaster, Europeans should do the same thing, Map of Mithraea: https://www.mithraeum.eu/tabula

Mithraism was practiced in the Roman Empire beginning in the 1st century AD and reaching its peak between the 3rd and 4th centuries. It was not a cult originating in the Italic-Roman world. Obviously the cult arrived in Rome around the 1st century AD, perhaps through the mediation of the Hellenic world, from Persia.

 

[—BoNe—]

Of course we prefer to resurrect Mithras, not Zoroaster, Europeans should do the same thing, Map of Mithraea: https://www.mithraeum.eu/tabula

But if Zoroaster was probably a son of Mithra, then you guys should like him.

Here in the West, we have already had many 33rd degrees.

The Celtic Lugh, the Norse Thor, the Greek Apollo, the Americans’ Anakin Skywalker…

They were all too warlike, that’s why we stuck with Yisus—he was nicer.

The Roman soldiers’ cult of Mithra was more esoteric, and they gave him a Phrygian cap. I don’t think he was exactly the same as yours.

I wouldn’t be surprised at all if it was a doctrine similar to what the Persian Immortals practiced to stay focused on war.

 

[—BoNe—]

Some of yout posts are interesting but here I don't see too well where you are going to. A "Moja bashing"? A n Y-haplo's heirs war?
Monumental and solid elite buildings have been built in Near-East and a bit farther east. Megaliths and big Cairns have been built on Atlantic Europe shores since at least 4000 BC (before Malta). Plus d basic people houses and prestige buildings are two things. Plus you seem very obsessed by the concept of superiority/inferiority. Linked only to the ability to build temples and fortresses? Tents dwelling half-nomadic people has been able to impose their religion over more evolved people too (Muslims at first) what didn't prevent them to develop later an urban art of life . So...

I’m just trying to piss off Moja for trying to steal the Roman Empire from us.

I don’t really know what his intentions are, because he’s not actually saying anything bad—but he drops little hints that I interpret as a kind of “cultural football match: East vs. West.”

I’m just joking around. I know full well that the J2s were insanely advanced from the moment they showed up—you could probably find them wearing linen back in 20,000 BC.

I’m just stirring the pot.

 

[MOESAN]

I’m just trying to piss off Moja for trying to steal the Roman Empire from us.

I don’t really know what his intentions are, because he’s not actually saying anything bad—but he drops little hints that I interpret as a kind of “cultural football match: East vs. West.”

I’m just joking around. I know full well that the J2s were insanely advanced from the moment they showed up—you could probably find them wearing linen back in 20,000 BC.

I’m just stirring the pot.

OK but it isn't sane for the thread.

 

[thewolfpup]

But if Zoroaster was probably a son of Mithra, then you guys should like him.

Here in the West, we have already had many 33rd degrees.

The Celtic Lugh, the Norse Thor, the Greek Apollo, the Americans’ Anakin Skywalker…

They were all too warlike, that’s why we stuck with Yisus—he was nicer.

The Roman soldiers’ cult of Mithra was more esoteric, and they gave him a Phrygian cap. I don’t think he was exactly the same as yours.

I wouldn’t be surprised at all if it was a doctrine similar to what the Persian Immortals practiced to stay focused on war.

Apollo was not a war like deity
Ares was the god of war and Athena was the Goddess of strategy

 

[—BoNe—]

Apollo was not a war like deity
Ares was the god of war and Athena was the Goddess of strategy

Asclepius, the son of Apollo, began using medicine to resurrect the dead.
Zeus killed him with a lightning bolt for disrupting the natural order.
Since Apollo could do nothing against Zeus, he channeled his anger toward the creators of the lightning bolts.

And he killed all the Cyclopes.

 

[Moja]

I’m just trying to piss off Moja for trying to steal the Roman Empire from us.

I don’t really know what his intentions are, because he’s not actually saying anything bad—but he drops little hints that I interpret as a kind of “cultural football match: East vs. West.”

I’m just joking around. I know full well that the J2s were insanely advanced from the moment they showed up—you could probably find them wearing linen back in 20,000 BC.

I’m just stirring the pot.

Whether you like it or not, your ancestors came from Iran: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-46161-7 Of course saying it makes modern Iranians superior than others is a childish thought. It is just important for me to know our Indo-European ancestors were an uncivilized nomadic group that lived in the steppe or a civilized people who created Greek, Roman, Persian, Indian, ... civilizations.

 

[WHGuy]

Whether you like it or not, your ancestors came from Iran: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-46161-7 Of course saying it makes modern Iranians superior than others is a childish thought. It is just important for me to know our Indo-European ancestors were an uncivilized nomadic group that lived in the steppe or a civilized people who created Greek, Roman, Persian, Indian, ... civilizations.

You both are very fixated on Y-DNA, so let's put this one to rest. Whether R1a or R1b-M269, your ancestors came from the steppes north and east of the Black Sea, stretching past the Caspian. From there the Indo-European peoples spread, at the same time, into Europe, Central Asia, Anatolia, northern Mesopotamia, and India.

 

[Vitruvius]

This obviously tells the reader that, during the Roman Empire, there was an influx of people from the eastern part of the empire to the area around Rome. This movement of people is fairly well known, perhaps most famously represented by the long term presence of a Jewish community Rome up until the present day.

Levantines had Iranian Neolithic admixture, this is well-known, so the fact that Levantines brought this to Rome should not be a surprise to anyone.

Anyone trying to argue that the Romans themselves were an Iranian offshoot however is clearly not reading the data properly or possibly has an agenda.

The autosomal change between Iron age vs imperial rome implicates an influx of aegean ancestry, not levantine or north african and this type of ancestry was already reflected in magna graecian populations living in Italy regardless. The minority of samples that had levantine or north african admixture clines disappear totallistically by late antiquity where as the aegean influence remains.

 

[Moja]

You both are very fixated on Y-DNA, so let's put this one to rest. Whether R1a or R1b-M269, your ancestors came from the steppes north and east of the Black Sea, stretching past the Caspian. From there the Indo-European peoples spread, at the same time, into Europe, Central Asia, Anatolia, northern Mesopotamia, and India.

As I said that is an old and outdated theory, genetic studies, like this recent one: "Ancient DNA indicates 3,000 years of genetic continuity in the Northern Iranian Plateau, from the Copper Age to the Sassanid Empire", show that ancient Persians, Parthians and Medes (our Indo-European ancestors) were J2 and J1, not R1a or R1b. In fact like Anatolians and some other Indo-European people, Iranians had no steppe ancestry.

 

[—BoNe—]

Whether you like it or not, your ancestors came from Iran: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-46161-7 Of course saying it makes modern Iranians superior than others is a childish thought. It is just important for me to know our Indo-European ancestors were an uncivilized nomadic group that lived in the steppe or a civilized people who created Greek, Roman, Persian, Indian, ... civilizations.

That’s as inaccurate as saying: ‘like it or not, some uncivilized Siberian nomads imposed their language on 90% of Iranians whose ancestors had lived in the region uninterrupted for 10,000 years.

Since when are the Caucasus and Anatolia in Iran?

 

[WHGuy]

The autosomal change between Iron age vs imperial rome implicates an influx of aegean ancestry, not levantine or north african and this type of ancestry was already reflected in magna graecian populations living in Italy regardless. The minority of samples that had levantine or north african admixture clines disappear totallistically by late antiquity where as the aegean influence remains.

I meant insofar as Levantine populations, most notably Jews, moved into the Roman metropolitan, not that these Levantines were a massive part of the overall population in the heart of Rome.

 

[Vitruvius]

I meant insofar as Levantine populations, most notably Jews, moved into the Roman metropolitan, not that these Levantines were a massive part of the overall population in the heart of Rome.

That's fair. I took the line "perhaps most famously represented by the long term presence of a Jewish community Rome up until the present day" to imply that there was some sort of mass population movement of Levantines to Rome. Apologies if I misconstrued what you were saying.

Yes, small Jewish communities and perhaps other types of Levantines certainly existed around Rome but they were small migratory minority populations that lacked any real permanence.

 

[Pygmalion]

There seems to be a separate study by Silvia Ghirotto's team specifically about Italy:

AGED: 1000 Ancient Italian Genomes: Evidence from ancient biomolecules for unravelling past human population Dynamics

beniculturali.unibo.it

I have no idea when it'll come out though. The University of Bologna's page about it states that the proejct ended in 2022.
There's a video about it on Youtube:

 

[ThirdTerm]

By 9,500–6,000 years before present (BP), EHGs had mostly light skin with "high frequencies of the light-skin variants" such as SLC24A5 and SLC45A2. The frequency of SLC24A5 was 100% in eastern hunter-gatherers, while around 70% of them carried SLC45A2 (Fig. 4). Western hunter-gatherers gradually became light-skinned after they admixed with EHGs. Geneflow from an East Asian-like source towards EHGs was around 9.4%. SHGs in Scandinavia are a mixture of EHGs and WHGs.

Fig 4. Adaptation to high-latitude environments.

In addition to performing this genome-wide scan, we studied the allele frequencies in three pigmentation genes (SLC24A5, SLC45A2, which have a strong effect on skin pigmentation, and OCA2/HERC2, which has a strong effect on eye pigmentation) in which the derived alleles are virtually fixed in northern Europeans today.

The genomic data further allowed us to study the physical appearance of SHGs (S8 Text); for instance, they show a combination of eye color varying from blue to light brown and light skin pigmentation. This is strikingly different from the WHGs—who have been suggested to have the specific combination of blue eyes and dark skin [18,20,21,23] and EHGs—who have been suggested to be brown-eyed and light-skinned [19,20].

Population genomics of Mesolithic Scandinavia: Investigating early postglacial migration routes and high-latitude adaptation

Author summary The Scandinavian peninsula was the last part of Europe to be colonized after the Last Glacial Maximum. The migration routes, cultural networks, and the genetic makeup of the first Scandinavians remain elusive and several hypotheses exist based on archaeology, climate modeling, and...

journals.plos.org

 

[WHGuy]

That's fair. I took the line "perhaps most famously represented by the long term presence of a Jewish community Rome up until the present day" to imply that there was some sort of mass population movement of Levantines to Rome. Apologies if I misconstrued what you were saying.

Yes, small Jewish communities and perhaps other types of Levantines certainly existed around Rome but they were small migratory minority populations that lacked any real permanence.

Mostly yes, though I would say that the 30,000 Jews in Italy today represent as close to a permanent presence as you can get for a non-native people when you consider that the Jewish community has been in Italy since the Republican era.