N1C spread by trade routes service social class leitzleute, letigalli, lyda, litva

N

Norvila

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Y-DNA haplogroup
N1c1
mtDNA haplogroup
U5b2a1
Dear colleagues,

I propose to look at gene distribution from total weighted figure perspective that brings quite different picture than view of colored maps based on max % as this doesn’t account density of population on the territory.
I’ve used https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_population

I’ve looked also if gene locations could be associated with trade routes as the way of spread.
N1C total.JPG
This brought me thought it could a mistake associate N1C with NE tribes as their population has only 5% of total N1C.
Together with Finland, Karela, Hungary and Estonia or so called FU language group has only 12% of total N1C.

On opposite side in Turkey Anatolia calculated there are 1.55M of N1C males that is 92% of 1.68M of Finland with Karela. We don’t know massive exodus from Finland, but it was many waves from the Anatolia (Lydia).

The Rus accounted almost 17M of N1C males today emerged on trade route from the Varangians to the Greeks controlled by the Rurikid and Gedimind ruling dynasties that were N1C origin.
Gedimind title was Dei gratia Letwinorum et multorum Ruthenorum rex so if Russia and GDL figures comes together it’s 20M or 69% of total N1C.
It’s attested both founders provided trade-travel infrastructure and service that was called leitzleute, letigalli, lyd(i)ava, litva, leita, lieta, lieda etc.
 
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N Y-DNA in East Germany has 7.4% comparing to 2% average in Germany as per post in this forum.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/37470-German-Regional-Y-DNA-Distribution?p=561852#post561852
It could be explained with Amber trade route that passed Elbe/Labe river and fur trade via Breslau.
It appears Bavarian dialect still preserved term leitzleute.
South Germany has too much of Lithuanian R1a Z280 that also had magnates Radziwillo controlled wast lands and trade routes hubs. They also were dukes of Holly Roman Empire connected by marriages with Bavaria, Brandenburg, Pfalc-Noiburg dukes.
 
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[h=1]A Genome-Wide Analysis of Populations from European Russia Reveals a New Pole of Genetic Diversity in Northern Europe
[/h]"...we report an analysis of approximately 166,000 single nucleotide polymorphisms in populations from eastern (northeastern) Europe: four Russian populations from European Russia, and three populations from the northernmost Finno-Ugric ethnicities (Veps and two contrast groups of Komi people). These were compared with several reference European samples, including Finns, Estonians, Latvians, Poles, Czechs, Germans, and Italians. The results obtained demonstrated genetic heterogeneity of populations living in the region studied. Russians from the central part of European Russia (Tver, Murom, and Kursk) exhibited similarities with populations from central–eastern Europe, and were distant from Russian sample from the northern Russia (Mezen district, Archangelsk region)." https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0058552
 
I'm struggling to understand your point here.

The number of people carrying N in 2018 is completely irrelevant. It's not indicative of anything other than demographic trends within the social structures of the respective political entity these individuals reside in.

It seems to be some uninformed gibberish mixed with Lithuanian nationalism and baseless speculation.
The entire apparatus of the pre-modern Lithuanian state was Slavic, I have no idea why you're so fixated on some random dynasties here. It's completely irrelevant to the general genetic makeup of the region.
 
Norvila said:
N Y-DNA in East Germany has 7.4% comparing to 2% average in Germany as per post in this forum.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/37470-German-Regional-Y-DNA-Distribution?p=561852#post561852
It could be explained with Amber trade route that passed Elbe/Labe river and fur trade via Breslau.
It appears Bavarian dialect still preserved term leitzleute.
South Germany has too much of Lithuanian R1a Z280 that also had magnates Radziwillo controlled wast lands and trade routes hubs. They also were dukes of Holly Roman Empire connected by marriages with Bavaria, Brandenburg, Pfalc-Noiburg dukes.
Click to expand...
It's pretty much general knowledge that Old Prussians were assimilated into the future German nation. It's got nothing to do with Radziwillo or trade routes.
There was also some minor backflow from the Baltic Germans numbering 70,000 to 100,000, which were deported to Germany and were mostly genetically mixed with ethnic Latvians and Estonians.
 
Norvila said:
Dear colleagues,

I propose to look at gene distribution from total weighted figure perspective that brings quite different picture than view of colored maps based on max % as this doesn’t account density of population on the territory.
I’ve used https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_population

I’ve looked also if gene locations could be associated with trade routes as the way of spread.
View attachment 10566
This brought me thought it could a mistake associate N1C with NE tribes as their population has only 5% of total N1C.
Together with Finland, Karela, Hungary and Estonia or so called FU language group has only 12% of total N1C.

On opposite side in Turkey Anatolia calculated there are 1.55M of N1C males that is 92% of 1.68M of Finland with Karela. We don’t know massive exodus from Finland, but it was many waves from the Anatolia (Lydia).

The Rus accounted almost 17M of N1C males today emerged on trade route from the Varangians to the Greeks controlled by the Rurikid and Gedimind ruling dynasties that were N1C origin.
Gedimind title was Dei gratia Letwinorum et multorum Ruthenorum rex so if Russia and GDL figures comes together it’s 20M or 69% of total N1C.
It’s attested both founders provided trade-travel infrastructure and service that was called leitzleute, letigalli, lyd(i)ava, litva, leita, lieta, lieda etc.
Click to expand...

I don't think that's a very reliable and correct way of looking at the data, because some countries just experienced a much bigger population boom than others along history. The absolute numbers don't tell us a lot because the distribution of human population and its growth was very assymetrical in the last millennia. Besides, much of Northern Russia was mostly Finno-Ugric even in historic times, as far as the High Middle Ages, so its strong presence, both in relative and absolute numbers, in Russia maintains the close association with either present or former Uralic-speaking areas.

However, I think it's plausible that the expansion of N1c was not associated just with military conquests or mass migrations, but also with gradual intrusion via trade routes and maybe associated with that also via political alliances, with some males taking advantage of that prestige to leave a larger than expected Y-DNA impact. Founder effects are very common in Y-DNA haplogroups, especially if they came to a land in association with some political, economic and/or military prestige.
 
Colleagues,
Could I propose using arguments instead of just "I think..." expressions?
The hypotheses compete against each other how well they explain know facts.
So the facts are:
-all N distribution is along the trade routes with max living population in Russia and Ukraine.
-N population in Turkey despite of the turbulent history almost identical to Finland with stable population.
-it's easy to spread gene in the small tribe comparing to big population in the wide territory.
-genes tends to spread easier from higher developed societies to lower
-it's unexplained yet how gene N could travel over the Siberia forest to Finland, E. Germany and Turkey with established theory.
I reject blame on nationalism as this arose in 19-20 c and we operate with much earlier historical facts.
My theory - soc.class that operated trade networks arose to the kingdoms in Russ, Litva and other European countries.
 
Norvila said:
Colleagues,
Could I propose using arguments instead of just "I think..." expressions?
The hypotheses compete against each other how well they explain know facts.
So the facts are:
-all N distribution is along the trade routes with max living population in Russia and Ukraine.
-N population in Turkey despite of the turbulent history almost identical to Finland with stable population.
-it's easy to spread gene in the small tribe comparing to big population in the wide territory.
-genes tends to spread easier from higher developed societies to lower
-it's unexplained yet how gene N could travel over the Siberia forest to Finland, E. Germany and Turkey with established theory.
I reject blame on nationalism as this arose in 19-20 c and we operate with much earlier historical facts.
My theory - soc.class that operated trade networks arose to the kingdoms in Russ, Litva and other European countries.
Click to expand...
All of this is internalized mental masturbation based on pure speculation. You're trying to connect 3 or 4 dots out of millions of dots, because you've read something about those 4 little dots. That's not how scientific inquiry works. There are no hypotheses here.


There are over 100 million N carriers in China.
There are over 100 million N carriers in China.
There are over 100 million N carriers in China.

According to you logic, I guess there must have been a Neolithic trade route from Southern China to Northern Scandinavian hunter-gatherers that had something to do with the Yuan dynasty. What absolute nonsense!
 
Thank you for a good point.
But you still do not explain shortcomings of existing theory, but try to downgrade new idea.
Let's assume world wide mass max of N is in China. How then 30M in Europe appeared throught tiny bottleneck of tribes settled in taiga?
All trade routes from China went via Kiev, Hungary same as huns and later mongol used.
But Hungary has almost 0 of N.
So how 21M of N in old Rus lands conected with 9M in rest of Europe?
Why in Finland, famous fur trade source of Rus wealth there are the same N as in Turkey?
How the 100M in China connected with 60% of N in India brahmans?
There is attested culture spread from India to China not vice versa.
Could it be the same way N spread from Central Europe to Russ?
F.e. Boii celtic tribe has been attested near Viena as Boiorum and had minting centre in Kalisz PL.
They controlled amber and fur trade routes during the roman times and probably moved North East during the huns.
They would be a ruling class there the same as bojars were in Russ later.
 
Tatars are the biggest ethnic group in former old Russ territory has 0.54M of N or about 1/3 of Finland with Karela.
It's interesting their language distribution reduces to the East of Volga
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatars#/media/File:Map-Kypchak_Language_World.png
It's attested their participation in Jermak expedition together with litva.
It could the source of N in the Northern tribes.
 
Norvila said:
Tatars are the biggest ethnic group in former old Russ territory has 0.54M of N or about 1/3 of Finland with Karela.
It's interesting their language distribution reduces to the East of Volga
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatars#/media/File:Map-Kypchak_Language_World.png
It's attested their participation in Jermak expedition together with litva.
It could the source of N in the Northern tribes.
Click to expand...


I guess the answers to your question are already out there in form of tree for Baltic Finns:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/geodun/YDNA/SNP-N-TREE-FIN.jpg

As far as it goes for Lithuanians and Latvians - they were one united tribe before moving into Latvia and Lithuania and they had heavy mixing with Finns(more related to Komi-Mari-Mordvian group) somewhere upstream of Daugava and that is the main source of N for Baltic. Just like modern people, also ancient people moved around a lot. Estonians differ from those two, as main source of N y-dna there comes from Finland.

Nope, there is different view on current N y-dna spread and it differs from the one that is in Europe. Please do some basic research first:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N-M231 - this also contains map for routes of N y-dna into Siberia and later to Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liao_civilization



There are main possible sources for N y-DNA in Turkey:
1. vikings, who served in Byzantine. Probably as an elite mercenary troops, but they were not that many.
2. according to wiki N1a1a1a1b2-A9408 and N1a2b3-B525 are the groups, that are mainly spread in Turkey and they differ from Baltic N y-dna as a distinct branches - also they are spread from as far as China, so this must be very recent arrival of those genes via nomads through steppe.

Tatars consist of many assimilated tribes, that were not Tatars originally, so what is the point of mixing them in? Language =/= genetics, as any person can learn new language and even forget native tongue, but person can't change ancestry, that comes with genes, unless heavy artificial gene editing is involved.
 
Norvila said:
Colleagues,
Could I propose using arguments instead of just "I think..." expressions?
The hypotheses compete against each other how well they explain know facts.
So the facts are:
-all N distribution is along the trade routes with max living population in Russia and Ukraine.
-N population in Turkey despite of the turbulent history almost identical to Finland with stable population.
-it's easy to spread gene in the small tribe comparing to big population in the wide territory.
-genes tends to spread easier from higher developed societies to lower
-it's unexplained yet how gene N could travel over the Siberia forest to Finland, E. Germany and Turkey with established theory.
I reject blame on nationalism as this arose in 19-20 c and we operate with much earlier historical facts.
My theory - soc.class that operated trade networks arose to the kingdoms in Russ, Litva and other European countries.
Click to expand...

Yes, my proposal is that people understand that their arguments are not objective truth, especially not if they aren't the authors of a relevant and methodoligically sound scientific study on the matter, and therefore they humbly remember that, even if they use well substantiated arguments, it's still just what they think. That's my personal suggestion.

We could take your hypothesis more seriously if you explain to us why absolute numbers would matter than relative numbers when we know that the human population experienced a huge (but unbalanced) demographic boom of more than 35x its former numbers from 2000 years ago (and the initial N1c expansion certainly predates that by much). A conclusion just can't be correct if its very premise is not demonstrably correct. Some populations notoriously increased much, much more than others, especially if the comparison is between civilized subtropical and hot-summer temperate lands and very northerly and cold rural lands.

Nobody disputes that N1c may have been spread partially along trade routes... but the trade routes you're mentioning date to less than 1500 years ago, and by that time N1c had been present in Europe since thousands of years earlier. N1c may have increased in frequency in some areas (possibly near the Baltic coast for example) more via male-biased elite dominance with trade and military prestige. And it's possible the trade networks spread by and via Kievan Rus' and other Slavic-Baltic-Uralic-mixed Slacivized kingdoms in the Middle Ages helped increase N1c's frequency even more... But I doubt that explains its initial expansion into Northeastern Europe. As for N1c in Turkey, it's clearly more easily linked to the Turkic immigration there than anything else.

Besides, numbers matter really much, much less than the investigation of the distribution and chronological sequence of the subclades and especially the more basal forms upstream of those subclades. Haplogroups boom and bust very easily.
 
Norvila said:
Thank you for a good point.
But you still do not explain shortcomings of existing theory, but try to downgrade new idea.
Let's assume world wide mass max of N is in China. How then 30M in Europe appeared throught tiny bottleneck of tribes settled in taiga?
All trade routes from China went via Kiev, Hungary same as huns and later mongol used.
But Hungary has almost 0 of N.
So how 21M of N in old Rus lands conected with 9M in rest of Europe?
Why in Finland, famous fur trade source of Rus wealth there are the same N as in Turkey?
How the 100M in China connected with 60% of N in India brahmans?
There is attested culture spread from India to China not vice versa.
Could it be the same way N spread from Central Europe to Russ?
F.e. Boii celtic tribe has been attested near Viena as Boiorum and had minting centre in Kalisz PL.
They controlled amber and fur trade routes during the roman times and probably moved North East during the huns.
They would be a ruling class there the same as bojars were in Russ later.
Click to expand...

N1c - N1c, not "generic" N - has already been found in the northeasternmost part of Europe, near the Arctic, in BRONZE AGE European DNA samples. It was in those "primitive cold lands" away from civilization and big trade routes well before it was found elsewhere in the ancient DNA distribution we have found until now. Therefore, no, N1c does not need to have come via trade routes much to the south of Northeastern Europe (North Russia, Finland, Baltic countries), where even now most of the higher proportions of N1c are found as well as most of the phylogenetic tree of "European" N1c. And the arrival of N1c into Europe certainly predates those medieval trade routes of Slavs and Turks by thousands of years.

It just seems to me that you can't accept the idea that "primitive" hunter-gatherers, pastoralists and incipient farmers from a very northern and underdeveloped land in Northeastern Europe and, earlier, in Siberia could've spread all this N1c into Europe. I honestly wonder why that sounds so unbelievable to you considering how Indo-European steppe tribes, Turks, Mongols, Arabians and so many other comparbaly underdeveloped peoples could expand their genetics and languages so widely even if they were much less wealthy and civilized than most of the people they conquered.
 
Thank you for the hints.
And sorry for mixing 2 topics – trade routes and weighted mass center of N.

Genghis Khan started from cooperation with foreign merchants early in his career, even before uniting the Mongols. His empire expansion via trade routes is a good illustration and could be analogue model to the genes spread. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_the_Mongol_Empire
China had one of the best road system with relay messengers system.
Merchants with accompanied guards and craftsmen were most frequently traveled parties.

I propose to use weight mass approach on genes spread https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_of_mass
In this perspective center of gravity for N in Europe are Rurikid and Gedimind empires that arose along trade routes. Not sure about China, but it could be the same.
E. Dunkel tree has interesting proportions. “Finns” has half of the mutations and resulted up to 2.33M(?) total (FI, S, N, EE), meanwhile Rurikid and Gedimind has very little mutations on his map, but their territories resulted 20M of N today. This probably means genes spread and/or population growth along the trade routes were much faster than in the isolated communities. This confirms:
- organized developed societies contribute better genes spread than primitives.
- most of the genes spread happened during the historical times.

So I think we can agree on obvious – trade routes helps spread of genes better than forested landscape as taiga.

BTW I don’t see the N of Central Europe and Turkey on Dunkel’s map.
 
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I suppose this is a perfect match with the silk road

N1a1a1a1b2-A9408 China,[1] Turkey,[1][27] Lebanon[7][3]Croatia,[1][27] Hungary[1]
N1a2b3-B525 Afghanistan, Arabs, Turkey, Tatars, Bashkirs, Kazakhs, Mongols, Slovakia, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Russians,

and with fur trade routes
N1a1a1a1a1a-CTS2929/VL29 Found with high frequency among Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, northwestern Russians, Swedish Saami, Karelians, Nenetses, Finns, and Maris, moderate frequency among other Russians, Belarusians, Ukrainians, and Poles, and low frequency among Komis, Mordva, Tatars, Chuvashes, Dolgans, Vepsa, Selkups, Karanogays, and Bashkirs[3]
N1a1a1a1a2-Z1936,CTS10082　Found with high frequency among Finns, Vepsa, Karelians, Swedish Saami, northwestern Russians, Bashkirs, and Volga Tatars,



 
Silk road is nowhere near steppes, where those N y-dna spread. Mongols invaded areas, that had Silk road during end of Silk roads existence.
It is rather difficult to move trade goods in steppe as there are no natural obstacles to defend trading posts against mobile robbers etc - also steppe does not fall into direct route from China to western civilization. What are you refering to is actually Nomad Highway - in ~600AD it changed direction to flow towards west. Silk road was on sea and on land and on land it went through mountainous areas far from nomads, who populated steppes.


Fur trade has any sense, if there is demand for them. The only fur trade topics I know are viking traders, who went to east to get those furs. It is rather too small impact to make on local population. Anyway - most of the spread of y-dna has nothing to do with trade and happened before trade routes came in existence. Basically this topic is not viable to explain all the movements of N y-DNA.


Dunkels tree contain Balkan y-dna N2(Y6503) - there are no specific central European N, as there is none. I believe there should be most SNP names of all N y-dna. You just have to connect those IDs by yourself and for that you need to learn more about the namings of those subgroups and wiki only uses some part of them.
 
Shall we check the facts first before replying? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road
Silk road was enforced with the army posts, merchants traveled accompanied.
Identical system existed on Roman roads all the way until Pony express used in US.

"The Chinese were also strongly attracted by the tall and powerful horses (named "Heavenly horses") in the possession of the Dayuan (literally the "Great Ionians", the Greek kingdoms of Central Asia), which were of capital importance in fighting the nomadic Xiongnu. The Chinese subsequently sent numerous embassies, around ten every year, to these countries and as far as Seleucid Syria. "Thus more embassies were dispatched to Anxi [Parthia], Yancai [who later joined the Alans ], Lijian [Syria under the Greek Seleucids], Tiaozhi (Mesopotamia), and Tianzhu [northwestern India]... As a rule, rather more than ten such missions went forward in the course of a year, and at the least five or six." (Hou Hanshu, Later Han History).These connections marked the beginning of the Silk Road trade network that extended to the Roman Empire.[42]
The Han army regularly policed the trade route against nomadic bandit forces generally identified as Xiongnu. Han general Ban Chao led an army of 70,000 mounted infantry and light cavalry troops in the 1st century CE to secure the trade routes, reaching far west to the Tarim basin. Ban Chao expanded his conquests across the Pamirs to the shores of the Caspian Sea and the borders of Parthia.[44] It was from here that the Han general dispatched envoy Gan Ying to Daqin (Rome).[45] The Silk Road essentially came into being from the 1st century BCE, following these efforts by China to consolidate a road to the Western world and India, both through direct settlements in the area of the Tarim Basin and diplomatic relations with the countries of the Dayuan, Parthians and Bactrians further west. The Silk Roads were a "complex network of trade routes" that gave people the chance to exchange goods and culture.[46]"
"Furs played an important role in early trading, as they were valuable enough to be transported over long distances. The demand of the furs in the Middle East led to early long-distance trade with Central and Upper Volga regions. It was the silver from the world of Islam arriving in the are in payment. ... The Caucasian trade route then declined from the early 11th century onwards... The Wester European markets developed strongly at the time....Easter The Kufic material was replaced by Friesian (German) material at the beginning of the 11th century, and with the markets moving west, the western source areas became more interesting in terms of fur acquisition, so that Lake Onega, shors of Lake Ladoga, Carelia, Eastern Finland and Lapland were included into this activity ."Noonan T. S. 1984 pp. 156 Jukka Korpela– 2008

 
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Norvila said:
Shall we check the facts first before replying? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road
Silk road was enforced with the army posts, merchants traveled accompanied.
Click to expand...
The only buildings you could build in steppe where Mongols lived, were yurts which could be warmed by burning horseshit. How were you going to enforce them? Maybe you should check facts again - those Silk road fortifications were located between mountain passes and a lot further south from N y-dna spread we are having conversation about. Silk road and what are you trying to look for are spread well apart. Also, did Silk Road spread N? Look on map of Silk Road and then on spread of N. Do some math.

As for fur trading - since Germanic people were the driving force, it would help mainly to spread Germanic genes. Backflow would be secondary effect and we don't see N y-dna from those times in Britain at all - at least not from those fur trading times. Why I'm mentioning Britain? Because Germanic people went there as well and even later they were part of Hanseatic league and that trade route didn't do anything to spread N. Maybe concentrate on finding more examples, that fail, before presenting trade routes as the main factor. Besides - even nowadays not all people are traders... even if they travel a lot more than ancient people.
 
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