Neolithic Refuge and Continuity in Transylvania

[Southpaw]

No, I haven't read it yet. Will read eventually. My comment was more directed towards you insinuating that Albanian was part of the CWC group instead of Yamnaya. Which is totally nonsense, when one looks at those Y-DNA samples. How you can come to such a conclusion honestly is beyond me.

I wasn't implying that may resolve our V13 question. Obviously if he is though it does suggest that perhaps V13 was more widespread than we are currently agreeing on. Saying all that, he probably is not though. Maybe a dead end like the Zemunica cave, but probably more likely a CTS1975>BY6630 Minoan like the Kydonia sample.

We will see once the raw data is released.

Why is it beyond you? Beyond your subjective worldview you say!

Z2103 lacks any kind of diversity among modern Albanians, I do not even want to mention PF7563 which is totally insignificant among formation of Albanians as population, it is present in very small amount yeah ~1-2%, but it lacks any kind of presence or diversity, L283 is too specific in Northern Albanian lacking among Central and Southern Albanians. Even in Kosovo L283 ~16% presence is due to founder effect due to mainly Krasniqi and Gashi fis overwhelmly.

There is quite a lot of uncertainty, much more than you willing to accept, Albanian is classified as Satem, do not forget that, and you guys magically do not even mention and avoid mentioning a certain excellent book from 2021 Der Illyrer from Matzinger whom you go in Amazon and spam with bad review, bad faith actions.

Zemunica cave is an Early Neolithic Cardium site, that was a totally different world, the Kydonia sample is likely Mycenaean though i would argue, since we have quite a lot of Minoan samples and none of them is E-L618 with most of them being J2a and G2a.

I do think E-L618 was present in Northern Aegean, but it was more loosely scattered, V13 was sticking on its own largely on a more northern and mountainous terrain, with occasionally some mixture with R1a-Z93 going on.

 

[Riverman]

The Kydonia sample is highly likely Mycenaean Greek on the paternal side of things, not Minoan though.
He is in a group with Greek yDNA which all are about 1/2 Greek and look like newcomers paternally.

 

[broder]

Why is it beyond you? Beyond your subjective worldview you say!

Z2103 lacks any kind of diversity among modern Albanians, I do not even want to mention PF7563 which is totally insignificant among formation of Albanians as population, it is present in very small amount yeah ~1-2%, but it lacks any kind of presence or diversity, L283 is too specific in Northern Albanian lacking among Central and Southern Albanians. Even in Kosovo L283 ~16% presence is due to founder effect due to mainly Krasniqi and Gashi fis overwhelmly.

There is quite a lot of uncertainty, much more than you willing to accept, Albanian is classified as Satem, do not forget that, and you guys magically do not even mention and avoid mentioning a certain excellent book from 2021 Der Illyrer from Matzinger whom you go in Amazon and spam with bad review, bad faith actions.

Zemunica cave is an Early Neolithic Cardium site, that was a totally different world, the Kydonia sample is likely Mycenaean though i would argue, since we have quite a lot of Minoan samples and none of them is E-L618 with most of them being J2a and G2a.

I do think E-L618 was present in Northern Aegean, but it was more loosely scattered, V13 was sticking on its own largely on a more northern and mountainous terrain, with occasionally some mixture with R1a-Z93 going on.

Sure buddy. We will take your stance as being more subjective - Alb being Satem therefore is mostly likely Thracian that came only with V13 from the CWC/BB complex. Simply because it’s personal to you based on your own linage.


It’s not just about diversity. Z2103 seems to have been the most diverse linage in the region during Bronze and Iron age, specifically CTS9219/CTS1450, where most of our Z2103 derives from. PF7563 has a similar story even though it didn’t succeed like Z2705 did with us. Regardless, it’s still super diverse and patchy just like L283. All three linages that were well represented among Illyrians as we have seen.


Z2705 is also the most uniform Alb linage present among all Alb groups and regions. No other subclade comes as close. Some V13 subclades like BY4461, FGC11450 etc come close but are still more patchy, just like L283 and PF7563 overall.


I think it’s pretty clear at this point that linguistically we derive from the Illyrian sphere, part of the Yamnaya complex, but we seem to have substantial Thracian or central Balkan influence. That Illyrian sphere could have been Dardania or whatever, where we fused as a more cohesive group once Rome collapsed. And exploded during the chaos era to become what we were during early Middle Ages. However you look at it, Z2705 was central to that expansion.

 

[broder]

Regarding the L618, you guys are taking it too literally and are focussing too much on little irrelevant details. What I mean is, it doesn’t matter where it comes from it might be just another L618 dead end..

 

[Southpaw]

Sure buddy. We will take your stance as being more subjective - Alb being Satem therefore is mostly likely Thracian that came only with V13 from the CWC/BB complex. Simply because it’s personal to you based on your own linage.


It’s not just about diversity. Z2103 seems to have been the most diverse linage in the region during Bronze and Iron age, specifically CTS9219/CTS1450, where most of our Z2103 derives from. PF7563 has a similar story even though it didn’t succeed like Z2705 did with us. Regardless, it’s still super diverse and patchy just like L283. All three linages that were well represented among Illyrians as we have seen.


Z2705 is also the most uniform Alb linage present among all Alb groups and regions. No other subclade comes as close. Some V13 subclades like BY4461, FGC11450 etc come close but are still more patchy, just like L283 and PF7563 overall.


I think it’s pretty clear at this point that linguistically we derive from the Illyrian sphere, part of the Yamnaya complex, but we seem to have substantial Thracian or central Balkan influence. That Illyrian sphere could have been Dardania or whatever, where we fused as a more cohesive group once Rome collapsed. And exploded during the chaos era to become what we were during early Middle Ages. However you look at it, Z2705 was central to that expansion.

Yeah, I am the only one interpreting personal things based on my own lineage.

Did u put an eye to the 2021 book Der Illyrer? It boldly claims Albanian cannot be descended from Illyrian based on evidences Matzinger provided, so why not a Daco-Mysian language influenced by Illyrian instead. God Forbid!

Z2705 has a boom after 500 A.D, prior to that, it was insignificant, i will argue that's quite a counter-argument, you do not need a strictly cohesive spread of 500 A.D subclade, i do believe the E-V13 bulk had various subclades when they moved in Albania, when and how i have no idea. But it looks E-V13 population was much bigger after LBA in Balkans overall. There was a clear pattern of invasions and destructions happening and movement of people, as much as Yamnaya invasion prior in Late Chalcolithic - EBA.

 

[broder]

I don’t care what Matzinger has to say. Or any linguist for that matter. Circle jerking on almost no evidence, besides some toponyms/hydronyms, taken from second hand sources at that, as far as I am concerned. And of course, Satem/Centum nonsense that you just brought up above.

DNA is where is at, homie. I am just being factual regarding Z2705. Couldn’t care less if I belonged to it.


Initial expansion started happening 150CE according to FTDNA: https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-PH970/story

It spread in three main branches back then that we know off. There could be more, of course. These are the ones that have been discovered so far. As I said, time wise other groups predate it and are more diverse, especially V13, L283 and PF7563 subclades but none of them have the spread among Albanians like Z2705. So, when you look at Albanians as a whole, you can’t overlook Z2103s role.

 

[Southpaw]

You know what, let's leave it at here. Linguistics is nonsense, the air we breathe is nonsense, what's next?!

 

[Riverman]

Regarding the L618, you guys are taking it too literally and are focussing too much on little irrelevant details. What I mean is, it doesn’t matter where it comes from it might be just another L618 dead end..

If you consider how few early Greek samples we got, and that we get for the first ones multiple cases of E-L618, associated with R-Z2103 and J-L283 among others, might mean something, like the Usatovo-Gorodsk connection of various E-L618 branches, like written before.
They are no complete dead ends probably and might have been once more widespread among early (Southern-centtral at least) Greeks than E-V13, which is, after all, a significant fact most people wouldn't have expected before ancient DNA results.

 

[broder]

You know what, let's leave it at here. Linguistics is nonsense, the air we breathe is nonsense, what's next?!

Yeah man, few irrelevant toponyms, that no one knows who named or how they came about, are more relevant to the Albanian question than actual DNA.



Gotcha

 

[Southpaw]

Yeah man, few irrelevant toponyms, that no one knows who named or how they came about, are more relevant to the Albanian question than actual DNA.



Gotcha

No, you are wrong here. Linguistics is not some vague or speculative field, it is an exact science. I don’t think linguists would make wild claims based on just a few irrelevant toponyms. But I do think you are oversimplifying things.

What if there was a mixed R1b-Z2103 and E-V13 population in the Central Balkans, and only E-V13 survived? They could have spread the language as secondary carriers, not originators. Take the Phrygians as an example: we have got 1 R1b-Z2103 from Gordium and 1 E-V13 from another site, Kecicayiri. Just something to think about (noy saying Albanian is related to Phrygian, just saying about potential different combinational admixture going on in Balkans). Because that is a possibility as well.

Dismissing someone’s work, especially linguists who put effort into it doesn’t seem fair.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

The new samples from Greece are all LBA. These R-Z2103 might not have been present since EBA. Just like Cetina had established trading posts, other groups likely did the same, hard to tell without profiles, the IBD clusters they created are very generalized.

 

[broder]

No, linguistics is not an exact science.
It’s very much a speculative field for the reason that languages constantly evolve and change shape. It’s exactly why Albanian can’t really be classified properly, especially because all of the related paleo Balkan language didn’t survive and didn’t leave us much inscription (besides Messapic which we clearly have some sort of relation, now confirmed even genetically). Hence why we are in this limbo.

What Gordium sample is Z2103? Two males I know from Iron Age Gordion both are J2a. If he isn’t CTS1450/CTS9219 don’t even bring him up. And for the Kecicayiri sample all we know is that he is L618. Why the need to speculate with samples from Anatolia bro, when it comes to Albanians.

 

[Southpaw]

You see how biased you are, it is not speculative field at all. Everything which falls under speculation it is labelled as such.

I am aware the Gordium sample was R1b-Z2103, AFAIK if i am not wrong. I am on my phone now cannot type thouroughly, will check latter on.

The reason i bring this up is because there was a LBA invasion from Balkans to Anatolia, they are not Anatolians, they are Balkan migrants mixed with Anatolians.

EDIT: I am not able to find any Gordion IA samples, IDK from where i got the idea the prior sample was R1b-Z2103, i am not able to find the J2a Gordion samples either.

 

[broder]

I am not biased at all. Just your argument is super weak, not even lukewarm.

Anyway, my point is there is no reason now to speculate or rely on linguistic speculations when we have other means of reaching the end goal - which is understanding our origin.

Both J2a Gordion samples are from southern arch, sample I4029 and I4030. In total there are six samples from there, two males and four females. Davidski did a thread about them and showed that they had Balkan ancestry. I believe he used the samples we got from Macedonia to demonstrate that. Anywho, they probably were closer to Greeks. I4030 is under here: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y29673/

If they had any V13, they could have picked it up somewhere in Thace on their way to Anatolia perhaps.

 

[Southpaw]

Eitherway, J2a could have been there native to Anatolia and the reverse happened.

As i initially stated, none of the Albanian Y-DNA except E-V13 subclades have encompassing presence among Albanians, even as it was stated in that Albanian DNA Study, and it is quite crucial so not like you guys try to make it and exclude from equations.

There is no linguistic speculation at all, that's your excuses, because u don't like the outcome. You only present selective informations.

 

[broder]

That specific subclade that at least one of them seems to belong to it has a decent distribution in Europe. Formed 5000ybp with multiple branches across Europe that diversified during Iron Age (2700ybp), so they could have gotten there from Europe.

What Albanian study? Davranoglu guy that belongs to my subclade lol. I remember like today when he joined these forums and also when he tested.

What you need to do is study these matters more in depth so you have a better understanding of what we are looking at.

I have never denied that V13 is the most diverse haplo among us. However, it doesn’t have structure like Z2705 like I mentioned on my response above. Few subclades do come close though. BY4461 and FGC11450, but even they don’t have the spread Z2705 has. They are super good candidates though for being in the nucleus of our expansion. The rest, yes all sort of subclades that formed even during Bronze Age but are more of a regional thing and patchy, or belonging to only a tribe/family, like your subclade. Mostly Puke, Tropoje and Kosove all belonging to 2 tribes (Sop/Berishe). Similar thing with Y159601, BY191636 and FT17132 (besides a Vlach from the south), all more of a Gheg thing. PH2180 is more wide spread tribe wise, but again a Gheg thing. FT187945 a Tosk thing. The rest are even weaker so not worth mentioning.


What adds more complexity to V13 is that all of those subclades have more parallels or sister clades all across Europe than within Albanians for example. That sort of spread makes it more of an international thing, not sure how else to put it. For L283>PH4679 you can clearly see that is not the case, and it has deep roots within Albania (3200ybp) with multiple branches. Same thing with PF7563>Z29758 and especially PF7566, going back to Bronze Age. Both more of an Albanian thing, just like CTS1450>Z2705.

 

[Southpaw]

I remember him as well.

But things do not work like that, i do believe E-V13 came in bulk with various subclades. Do u really believe a pre 500 A.D Z2705 who could you number in fingers could resist Slavic incursions? They literally chopped everything what remained of Balkans. Thrace was even more depopulated due to being in proximity to Constantinople and the Justinian Plague center. But inland Moesia was the more intact, much more than the rest of Balkans.

I think that paper is spot on on their observations. E-V13 has more continuous uninterrupted growth than the rest of Albanian Y-DNA. That is a pattern which tells us something valuable to us.

We have then Dardania, whose very name seems to be more connected to Daco-Moesian world than Illyrian world.

The reason why they are scattered around is due to Daco-Moesian/Thracian highlander soldiery, they owerhelmed the Roman empire, one such example is Constantine the Great, a Moesian man, likely the most famous from this tribe ( not a speculation, confirmed in letter by Julian The Apostle).

 

[Riverman]

I think that pre- and post-Roman dispersions of E-V13 were minimum as much important as the Roman Imperial ones. But what's clear for the Albanian case is the mentioned bulk migration of whole clans and tribes with various E-V13 branches in a specific, clearly defined time window. Like E-V13 will be low, and then it will rise steeply in the Proto-Albanian context. Now how that aligns with the linguistic debate is another question, but this kind of massive pulse migration is a sure thing.

 

[broder]

I remember him as well.

But things do not work like that, i do believe E-V13 came in bulk with various subclades. Do u really believe a pre 500 A.D Z2705 who could you number in fingers could resist Slavic incursions? They literally chopped everything what remained of Balkans. Thrace was even more depopulated due to being in proximity to Constantinople and the Justinian Plague center. But inland Moesia was the more intact, much more than the rest of Balkans.

I think that paper is spot on on their observations. E-V13 has more continuous uninterrupted growth than the rest of Albanian Y-DNA. That is a pattern which tells us something valuable to us.

We have then Dardania, whose very name seems to be more connected to Daco-Moesian world than Illyrian world.

The reason why they are scattered around is due to Daco-Moesian/Thracian highlander soldiery, they owerhelmed the Roman empire, one such example is Constantine the Great, a Moesian man, likely the most famous from this tribe ( not a speculation, confirmed in letter by Julian The Apostle).

We didn't resist anything, we already were super weak demographically speaking, first because of Roman control, and second, because of their collapse. What we did, is took advantage of the power vacuum and regrouped in a more of a isolated parts of Albania. Most definitely we contracted around Mat, Mirdite etc. and exploded from there.

You think V13 resisted and came in bulk? Let's look at them individually, shall we? Your sublcade, Y93102 at 1300AD a singleton. BY191636 1200AD a singleton. Y227338 1300AD a singleton. Y159601 850AD a singleton. FGC11450>Y173822 650AD a singleton. Y172393 600AD a singleton. BY5617 has two branches going back to 400BC but note the Late Avar sample from Hungary on a parallel standing, and the real Alb expansion under this one only happened with PH2180 post 700AD. Again, the only ones with more structure are Y146086 (seems a little more complex, but the bulk of expansion is post 800AD within Albanian context under Y146085), BY4461>BY4465 and FT17132 but the bulk of expansion among us with this one only occurred in Malesi with Kelmendi (note again the western parallel branches going to 200BC). There are plenty of other singleton clades which adds to the diversity but demographically they are insignificant.

What does this mean or represent? It's not as simple as some of you seem to think when you throw in the linguistic angle. Especially when you have in mind their inner diversity and relatedness with other groups across Europe. Albanians are unique bro. We were isolated and super conservative. That uniqueness and isolation needs to be sought after in DNA too.

Paper is just making some simple calculations without understanding the inner Albanian context.

 

[Southpaw]

We didn't resist anything, we already were super weak demographically speaking, first because of Roman control, and second, because of their collapse. What we did, is took advantage of the power vacuum and regrouped in a more of a isolated parts of Albania. Most definitely we contracted around Mat, Mirdite etc. and exploded from there.

You think V13 resisted and came in bulk? Let's look at them individually, shall we? Your sublcade, Y93102 at 1300AD a singleton. BY191636 1200AD a singleton. Y227338 1300AD a singleton. Y159601 850AD a singleton. FGC11450>Y173822 650AD a singleton. Y172393 600AD a singleton. BY5617 has two branches going back to 400BC but note the Late Avar sample from Hungary on a parallel standing, and the real Alb expansion under this one only happened with PH2180 post 700AD. Again, the only ones with more structure are Y146086 (seems a little more complex, but the bulk of expansion is post 800AD within Albanian context under Y146085), BY4461>BY4465 and FT17132 but the bulk of expansion among us with this one only occurred in Malesi with Kelmendi (note again the western parallel branches going to 200BC). There are plenty of other singleton clades which adds to the diversity but demographically they are insignificant.

What does this mean or represent? It's not as simple as some of you seem to think when you throw in the linguistic angle. Especially when you have in mind their inner diversity and relatedness with other groups across Europe. Albanians are unique bro. We were isolated and super conservative. That uniqueness and isolation needs to be sought after in DNA too.

Paper is just making some simple calculations without understanding the inner Albanian context.

Absolutely, i do think V13 resisted more and came in bulk, I am most certainly about this. When you combine with linguistic facts (not speculations) it makes sense that when they moved to Albania they mixed with whatever was left in Mati-Dibra of Illyrian population.

Either this, or the admixed Albanian population already happened around in Dardania and South Serbia making a new wave on top of similar Latinized population in Albania.