Neolithic Refuge and Continuity in Transylvania

[Riverman]

Data set for the Ukrainian samples:

Population history of Ukraine

But there are some uncertainties with this data set, since some ID's don't add up probably.

In any case, it proves that in the Western steppe/forest steppe E-V13 was present. If UKR052 is real, this would be S2979 in a Late Scythian.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

They are all father and son's, so if one is E-V13, they're all E-V13.

 

[Riverman]

They are all father and son's, so if one is E-V13, they're all E-V13.

But for two of them the mutations are missing, even though their coverage is good/better. I'm waiting for the response to the single individual from Bilsk which has, according to the program, V13 mutations:

UKR091: Total SNPs: 1507
Result (69.2% 18 -0 +8): E-CTS1273
E -> E-M5479 -> E-P147 -> E-P177 -> E-M5557 -> E-M215 -> E-M35 -> E-L539 -> E-M78 -> E-Z1919 -> E-L618 -> E-CTS10912 -> E-V13 -> E-Z1057 -> E-CTS1273 (ISOGG: )
Extra: Y28281:T Y213157:T Y192300/FT251231:T FGC17803/ZS3959:T YP597:T Y7502:T Y10701:T Y292211:T

In any case, they are mostly basal (L618, basal V13) or Southern in the sample overall, with the possible exception of this single S2979, if this individual is real. Late Scythian could be Transylvanian Scythian/Eastern Vekerzug backflow.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

UKR052 is very late Scythian(Crimean kingdom), from Crimea.

Chronology according to archaeology – end of 2nd to 1st c. BCE.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

At the Bilsk hillfort in
Poltava region, the analysis identified another pair of genetically identical samples (UKR089 and
UKR091; mtDNA hg H+152, chrY hg E1b), but these come from different kurgans that were excavated
in different years, so it is likely that they were identical twins (Figure S7B, Methods). These inferred
twins are first degree related to another male (UKR090; mtDNA hg H11a1, chrY hg E1b) who is likely
their father (Figure S7B).

UKR090 is the outlier among the heavy green squares(heavy MENA admixture per k13s). And the samples that plot like the Himera's appear to be females, the twins are likely the two samples below them.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Based on the sims

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Chernakhiv culture seems to be made entirely of Goths, Dacian and Sarmatians.

 

[Southpaw]

UKR090 looks like is close to Greek Islanders.

 

[Southpaw]

There was an arguement about Aegean elements in Urnfield/Hallstatt and viceversa, and it looks E-V13 was a major element of that. I just don't know in which direction.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

These are sims and they will shift somewhat. UKR090 is mixed with a Greek without a doubt, they also have a clear Asian pull. Hence they were part of the Scythian elite in Bilsk fort. BTW Chernakhiv culture seems like another potential goldmine for future E-V13 samples, a surprise to us all. It is basically subjugated Dacians, Sarmatians and some other IA Ukrainian remains under Gothic rule.

Putting some more content into the mapping.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Based on the sims

So the two Kartal samples that have MENA drift are extremely low coverage.
UKR005 2.24%
UKR006 5.38%

In fact the one with the most MENA drift is the one with the lowest coverage. The papers own PCA (based on QPDAM) is likely more accurate(brown triangles are Kartal)

I would say GAS004 sim same inaccurate variance of error and likely plots between BGR EIA and Monteru BA.

 

[Southpaw]

I have the feeling that Bilsk samples should be V13+, it makes more sense.

 

[Riverman]

The Thracian Hallstatt E-V13 with the simulated Tomenable coordinates:

UKR007,0.125842,0.153283,0.018370,-0.026550,0.033250,-0.008000,0.003444,-0.000186,0.006446,0.034099,-0.004019,0.009990,-0.016180,0.004612,-0.016693,-0.005228,0.008072,0.000854,0.011344,-0.010293,-0.008054,0.000690,-0.000703,0.000910,-0.000692<br>


Target: UKR007
Distance: 2.5181% / 0.02518071

66.8 TUR_Barcin_N
30.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.6 WHG

Closest ancient samples (30) - those in bold which I deem most relevant:

Distance to: UKR007
0.02045505 Slovenia_Emona_Roman.SG:R10467.SG
0.02219968 Hungary_EarlyAvar:MM-131.SG
0.02250938 Albania_Medieval:I13839
0.02299833 Macedonia_BA:I7231
0.02305415 Serbia_Sirmium_Roman.SG:R6730.SG
0.02454007 Italy_TarquiniaMonterozzi_IA.SG:R10343.SG
0.02479695 Macedonia_IA:I10388
0.02490826 Croatia_Zadar_Roman.SG:R3743.SG
0.02714006 Croatia_Popova_CA.SGOP39_noUDG.SG
0.02735256 Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG:Log02.SG
0.02751135 Hungary_LaTene:I18493
0.02965038 Serbia_SvilosKrussevlje_Roman.SG:R6693.SG
0.02980080 Macedonia_Classical_Hellenistic:I10391
0.02994462 Serbia_Mokrin_EBA_Maros:I23205
0.03006448 Italy_Medieval_EarlyModern.SG:R1287.SG
0.03019675 Montenegro_MLBA:I13167
0.03038841 Hungary_MidAvar:ALT-224.SG
0.03066612 Macedonia_Classical_Hellenistic:I10390
0.03072073 Hungary_LateAvar:SZKT-265.SG
0.03084110 Montenegro_MLBA:I13775
0.03102272 Croatia_Tilurium_Roman.SG:R3544.SG
0.03105822 Hungary_MidAvar:SSD-198.SG
0.03121734 Montenegro_Doclea_Roman_oAegean.SG:R3481.SG
0.03122520 Hungary_MidAvar:SZK-180.SG
0.03147232 Albania_BA_IA:I14692
0.03151094 Albania_Modern:I15707
0.03163745 Croatia_SisakPogorelec_Roman.SG:R2040.SG
0.03187016 Hungary_Conqueror_Commoner:HMSZ-86.SG
0.03206696 Hungary_EIA_Prescythian_Mezocsat:I11683
0.03222604 Austria_Klosterneuburg_Roman_oLevant.SG:R10654.SG
0.03231961 Hungary_IA_Syrmian_SremGroup:I18259
0.03251441 Italy_Tuscany_Grosseto_EarlyMedievalOP001
0.03253230 Germany_EMedieval_Alemanic_SEurope:NIEcap3c
0.03256937 Slovakia_IA_Vekerzug:I11721
0.03268989 Croatia_Zadar_Roman.SG:R3744.SG
0.03274173 Croatia_MBA:I4331
0.03277903 Hungary_MidAvar:SZK-83.SG
0.03291299 Montenegro_MLBA:I13169
0.03293051 Slovakia_IA_Vekerzug:I11722
0.03312118 Serbia_SvilosKrussevlje_Roman.SG:R6701.SG

What sticks out the most are the similarities to Illyrian-Thracian groups from the Western, Central and Northern Balkans, as well as the similarity to the Vekerzug and Mezocsat North Thracian related group. Vekerzug and Mokrin/Maros group samples come first, only in the last 10 of 100 appears a first South Thracian one, Bulgaria_IA:I5769.
The question is whether this is due to admixtrue in the North East, or whether this individual is himself closer to "the original" and the South Thracians got some more Southern admixture in their area of settlement.

 

[Southpaw]

There was an arguement about Aegean elements in Urnfield/Hallstatt and viceversa, and it looks E-V13 was a major element of that. I just don't know in which direction.

To return to this, i do believe they were somewhere in the middle between Aegean and Urnfield Carpathians. So Haemus Mons and Southern Carpathians is probably where we should look at, an invasion from there both North and South is reasonable to assume at this stage.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Riverman, you're wrong. First I want to say wait for the real G25, as sims always mistake Baltic drift as Iron Gates HG, hence proximity to Illyrian.
2nd, having tested so many samples myself, there is a clear repeat of pattern I have noticed with modern Albanians, a modern Albanian that in G25 prefers Illyrian in distance test, always has heavy Slavic admixture 25-30%. In fact it is most pronounced when such a person has Thracian as Balkan IA and secondary strong Slavic admixture.
The same thing is being played out with the ancient E-V13, where BGR IA profiles with 20-25% admixtureSlavic/Fuzesabony/Moldova LBA pastoralist replicates your same results.

Here are two coordiantes I created by taking Kapitan Andreevo average plus Baltic BA and another one with Fuzesabony.
Thracian(4/5)+Baltic BA(1/5)
Thracian(3/4)+Fzesabony(1/4)

Thracian_Baltic_BA_drift_20%,0.122951566666667,0.153446453333333,0.0265315666666667,-0.0198298666666667,0.0361851333333333,-0.0125630666666667,0.00448396,0.00175514666666667,0.00904556,0.0283183333333333,0.00167588,0.00410542,-0.00741916,0.00932821333333333,-0.02242478,-0.00767779333333334,0.01104348,0.00314013333333333,0.00868749333333333,-0.00607789333333333,-0.00851834,-0.000116373333333333,-0.000565326666666667,-0.0026424,-0.00502086666666667
Thracian_Fuzesabony_drift_25%,0.1212215,0.153852625,0.0221085,-0.024103875,0.03162125,-0.01272425,0.0038775,0.000115125,0.00984275,0.033896,0.000345125,0.006819125,-0.012245875,0.00289025,-0.0148275,-0.0047565,0.009192,0.001995375,0.007934875,-0.005127375,-0.005272,0.001622875,-0.000523875,-0.00120525,-0.005179375

And here are the results:

Compare with the purest Albanian samples we have to date, that have 8-10% Slavic admixture. VS Kosovar Albanians that average 25-30% Slavic admixture

Notice how the modern Kosovar shows more affinity to Illyrians than the Kukes post mdv samples? It is a mirage created by the Slavic admixture, which has WHG like component. In qpdam this does not hold up.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Compare same results but this time including the E-V13 sims from Ukraine. Also removed MKD Ohrid and Roman Serbia samples just so the pattern becomes crystal clear.

 

[D.L.M]

Riverman, you're wrong. First I want to say wait for the real G25, as sims always mistake Baltic drift as Iron Gates HG, hence proximity to Illyrian.
2nd, having tested so many samples myself, there is a clear repeat of pattern I have noticed with modern Albanians, a modern Albanian that in G25 prefers Illyrian in distance test, always has heavy Slavic admixture 25-30%. In fact it is most pronounced when such a person has Thracian as Balkan IA and secondary strong Slavic admixture.
The same thing is being played out with the ancient E-V13, where BGR IA profiles with 20-25% admixtureSlavic/Fuzesabony/Moldova LBA pastoralist replicates your same results.

Here are two coordiantes I created by taking Kapitan Andreevo average plus Baltic BA and another one with Fuzesabony.
Thracian(4/5)+Baltic BA(1/5)
Thracian(3/4)+Fzesabony(1/4)

Thracian_Baltic_BA_drift_20%,0.122951566666667,0.153446453333333,0.0265315666666667,-0.0198298666666667,0.0361851333333333,-0.0125630666666667,0.00448396,0.00175514666666667,0.00904556,0.0283183333333333,0.00167588,0.00410542,-0.00741916,0.00932821333333333,-0.02242478,-0.00767779333333334,0.01104348,0.00314013333333333,0.00868749333333333,-0.00607789333333333,-0.00851834,-0.000116373333333333,-0.000565326666666667,-0.0026424,-0.00502086666666667
Thracian_Fuzesabony_drift_25%,0.1212215,0.153852625,0.0221085,-0.024103875,0.03162125,-0.01272425,0.0038775,0.000115125,0.00984275,0.033896,0.000345125,0.006819125,-0.012245875,0.00289025,-0.0148275,-0.0047565,0.009192,0.001995375,0.007934875,-0.005127375,-0.005272,0.001622875,-0.000523875,-0.00120525,-0.005179375

And here are the results:

Compare with the purest Albanian samples we have to date, that have 8-10% Slavic admixture. VS Kosovar Albanians that average 25-30% Slavic admixture

Notice how the modern Kosovar shows more affinity to Illyrians than the Kukes post mdv samples? It is a mirage created by the Slavic admixture, which has WHG like component. In qpdam this does not hold up.

Use Catholic Mirdites instead, if you have the samples?

 

[D.L.M]

BTW there was 10-15% Anatolian admixture from Romans there too.

 

[Southpaw]

Riverman, you're wrong. First I want to say wait for the real G25, as sims always mistake Baltic drift as Iron Gates HG, hence proximity to Illyrian.
2nd, having tested so many samples myself, there is a clear repeat of pattern I have noticed with modern Albanians, a modern Albanian that in G25 prefers Illyrian in distance test, always has heavy Slavic admixture 25-30%. In fact it is most pronounced when such a person has Thracian as Balkan IA and secondary strong Slavic admixture.
The same thing is being played out with the ancient E-V13, where BGR IA profiles with 20-25% admixtureSlavic/Fuzesabony/Moldova LBA pastoralist replicates your same results.

Here are two coordiantes I created by taking Kapitan Andreevo average plus Baltic BA and another one with Fuzesabony.
Thracian(4/5)+Baltic BA(1/5)
Thracian(3/4)+Fzesabony(1/4)

Thracian_Baltic_BA_drift_20%,0.122951566666667,0.153446453333333,0.0265315666666667,-0.0198298666666667,0.0361851333333333,-0.0125630666666667,0.00448396,0.00175514666666667,0.00904556,0.0283183333333333,0.00167588,0.00410542,-0.00741916,0.00932821333333333,-0.02242478,-0.00767779333333334,0.01104348,0.00314013333333333,0.00868749333333333,-0.00607789333333333,-0.00851834,-0.000116373333333333,-0.000565326666666667,-0.0026424,-0.00502086666666667
Thracian_Fuzesabony_drift_25%,0.1212215,0.153852625,0.0221085,-0.024103875,0.03162125,-0.01272425,0.0038775,0.000115125,0.00984275,0.033896,0.000345125,0.006819125,-0.012245875,0.00289025,-0.0148275,-0.0047565,0.009192,0.001995375,0.007934875,-0.005127375,-0.005272,0.001622875,-0.000523875,-0.00120525,-0.005179375

And here are the results:

Compare with the purest Albanian samples we have to date, that have 8-10% Slavic admixture. VS Kosovar Albanians that average 25-30% Slavic admixture

Notice how the modern Kosovar shows more affinity to Illyrians than the Kukes post mdv samples? It is a mirage created by the Slavic admixture, which has WHG like component. In qpdam this does not hold up.

Paleo, asking directly for your take and opinion.

I vouch for a V13 origin in Southern Carpathians, they migrated/invaded during LBA South mainly, North, East and occasionally West but mostly focused on South/East due to better prospects and richer plunder regions.

I think it matches with Psenicevo being a southern extension of Insula Banului and Babadag being an eastern extension, and many other spinoffs like Belegis II as well. Stamped-Ware occasionally switched to inhumation in lower tumuli but the Belegis II related practiced mostly cremations exhibited by historical Dacians and Mysians and Triballi who largely cremated their death.

It might be Eastern Rhodopes or Northern Carpathians, but for me Southern Carpathians and Haemus Mons makes sense.

 

[Southpaw]

This is what ChatGPT replied when asked

The Pșeničevo, Insula Banului, and Babadag cultures likely derive from sub-groups of the broader Urnfield cultural complex, which expanded from Central Europe into the Balkans and the lower Danube region during the Late Bronze Age. The specific sub-culture from which these southeastern European cultures might derive is likely related to the eastern branches of the Urnfield culture, particularly those that developed in the Carpathian Basin and the Tisza River region. These areas served as conduits for the spread of Urnfield influence into the Balkans and the lower Danube region.

Key Sub-cultures of the Urnfield Complex that Influenced these Cultures:

1. Piliny Culture:

The Piliny culture, a sub-culture of the Urnfield complex, existed in present-day Slovakia and northeastern Hungary during the Late Bronze Age. It played a crucial role in transmitting Urnfield practices to the southeast, particularly cremation burials and fortified hilltop settlements. The Piliny culture influenced many areas in the Carpathian Basin and adjacent regions, acting as a bridge between Central Europe and the Balkans.

Piliny influence is especially evident in the development of fortified settlements and ceramic styles in southeastern European cultures like Babadag and Pșeničevo.



2. Gáva Culture:

The Gáva culture, which emerged in the Carpathian Basin and expanded into western Romania (Transylvania and Banat) and Hungary during the Late Bronze Age, had significant influence on southeastern Europe. The Gáva culture is notable for its sophisticated metalwork, including bronze tools and weapons, and its urnfield burial practices.

The spread of the Gáva culture to the lower Danube likely contributed to the material culture and burial customs of the Insula Banului culture, as well as to the Pșeničevo and Babadag cultures. Gáva pottery and fortified settlements, for example, have parallels in the lower Danube and Balkan regions.



3. Vatina Culture:

The Vatina culture, a Bronze Age culture from the Serbian Banat region, was absorbed into the Urnfield complex and contributed to the spread of cremation practices and other cultural elements into the Balkans. The Vatina culture had close ties with the central and eastern Urnfield groups, especially in the Carpathian Basin. It is likely that the Insula Banului culture, located not far from the Vatina region, derived some of its influences from this interaction.

The connection with the Vatina culture can be seen in burial practices and the use of cremation, which became dominant in the Late Bronze Age as Urnfield customs spread.




Cultural Transmission and Regional Adaptation

While these southeastern European cultures, such as Pșeničevo, Insula Banului, and Babadag, were shaped by sub-cultures like the Piliny, Gáva, and Vatina, they also developed their own distinct identities. Local populations adapted these Central European influences to their specific geographical, environmental, and social contexts, leading to regional variation in settlement patterns, pottery, and burial practices.

In conclusion, the Pșeničevo, Insula Banului, and Babadag cultures likely trace their origins to the eastern Urnfield sub-cultures, particularly Piliny, Gáva, and Vatina, which spread cremation practices, fortified settlements, and new metalworking technologies into southeastern Europe during the Late Bronze Age. These sub-cultures served as a conduit for Central European influences while allowing for local variation and adaptation.